 Right. Welcome everybody. Lovely to see you here this bright sunny afternoon. I can see a few friendly faces in the crowd and some new ones. This is the latest in a series of events that we have been doing for the Chartered Institute of Marketing. My name is Jacob Howard. I work here in marketing at Deutsche Bank so I'm kind of hosting two times today, hosting for Deutsche Bank and hosting for the Chartered Institute of Marketing I'm the chair of the financial services group. So last year we did some events on digital marketing and GDPR, everyone's favourite topic. This is the first event of this year, but we have other events planned. And after the panel today, I'm inviting you all to come downstairs with me and we're going to the pub. So please do if you can, join us. And during that networking evening we want to gather more ideas from you about other activities you want to see in this space. I've already heard in the past 30 minutes, I didn't know this was happening. Can we do more of this? So let's get all of your ideas and start to form this community and do more things that are relevant to you and financial services marketers. So we've got a fantastic panel today. Open Banking, what does it mean to financial services marketers? And I'd now like to invite the moderator, Daniel Hederson, from Athlon to come up and introduce his panel. Good afternoon all, thanks for coming along. Quick intro about me. So I'm managing partner Athlon. We're an experienced design and transformation company. We work with banks, fintechs and open banking, but I'll try not to be biased. So what I'd like to do is just welcome up the panel so maybe we can start with Eduardo if you'd like to join me and if you want to do a quick intro about yourself to everyone. Hello everyone. I'm Eduardo Martinez Barrios. You can tell that I'm Spanish, right? So yes, I've been working with Santander UK in order to deliver all the open banking initiatives that has been set up for the past two years. And definitely has been a journey besides that. Well, I've been working with the Santander group for the last 11 years working in the group wide initiatives and as well in the UK, the US and other regions where we operate. Also invite Jasper if you can come up and do the same. Do the same. Obviously different company. So yeah, I'm Jasper. I work in marketing for Pension Day, which is an online pension manager in the UK. So I joined the company four years ago as number four. We're now at 60. So it's been quite a journey. Making pensions simple and engaging, which is something that I guess we all agree the pension industry is not being very good in doing. So a really challenging, challenging, challenging brands had a lot of fun along the way in building a pension brand from the ground up. Before this, I was working as well. I was working for a company called Simply Business, which is an online insurance provider also in marketing. So in total, I think 15 years of financial marketing experience work, making boring products cool, I guess. Cool. And last but not least, Miles from Open Banking. Good afternoon everybody. So I'm Miles Cheathaman from Open Banking. I'm head of propositions. You might ask what on earth is that. My job is really to understand what the customer wants. That's either the man in the street or the small business. Understand what they want. Make sure that's reflected in what Open Banking actually builds. I've been at Open Banking literally since day one. So it's been one hell of a rollercoaster ride. Absolutely fascinating to see this thing go from a piece of paper called the CMA Order. In fact, the CMA Report when I first got there. Come to life and spring out of this piece of paper and turn into something which is now starting to gather a huge amount of momentum. Prior to that, not really a banker. I'm not a banker at all. And a little bit of payments experience. But most of my life I've spent in telecoms working here in Europe for Vodafone and in Africa for MTN. Mainly in digital product development over the last 20 years or so. Something like that. Great. So we've got obviously a very varied audience, or panel which I think is really good. About you first. Just a little show of hands to help us gauge where you're coming from and where you're at and your understanding. Can I just ask, just raise your hands if you're a marketer by profession? OK, that's expected and CIM. Who understands what Open Banking is? Let's be honest with ourselves here. OK, but half the audience. And can you raise your hand if your company is in the process of embracing Open Banking? OK, OK. There's a few. So your work's cut out a little bit, Miles, to promote this a little bit. But maybe we can start there with quite an open question. I'll direct it to you first, Miles. Can you just help explain what Open Banking is for those who aren't so sure? And why is marketers they should all care? Yeah, sure. So Open Banking is basically about allowing third party providers access to your bank account so that you can draw out the information, the transaction information, the account information from your bank and to initiate payments on your account. And that kind of might sound a bit scary, but let me assure you it's totally secure. It's all under customer control and it uses a trust framework which means that nobody can get access to your bank account without your permission. And what this means is that third party providers can start to deliver services which effectively run on the banking infrastructure. So if you imagine you have your banks and that provides all the plumbing for the banking industry it means that new value-added services will emerge and are emerging using that infrastructure plugged into the banks and that will spur innovation right across financial services. And that's really why it's so interesting for marketers because it's a kind of step change. What the Competition and Markets Authority did when they initiated this and wrote the order was they did something that no other comparable body has ever done anywhere in the world that is to mandate access to bank accounts. Simply hasn't been done before. The UK is well ahead of the rest of the world. The rest of the world actually, by the way, is following and very, very interested in what's going on here. But we're making great strides in the UK as an industry in adopting this technology. What that means is that customers will have a far greater choice in the products and services that are available to them. Some of the things which beforehand would perhaps have been a bit exclusive now can become automated so there will be broader coverage of services, things that we'd have to pay for advice and things like that. Those kind of things can be automated. And it will start to breed much greater innovation across the piece and it will change the relationship that people have with financial services over the next five to ten years. It will get carried away. It's not going to happen as a big bang. It is happening quite quickly. But you'll see this happen over the next few years. On that, we'll see it's about sparing innovation. You just tapped on the end. It's five to ten years before we'd probably see the full breadth of that. It's been a recent report and I'll direct this one to you about the failure of some of the big banks to adequately deliver on open banking for their customers. Is it a competitive opportunity? Is it a market disruption? Definitely. Open banking is what leaps you in front of you. It's a whole network of rails that at the moment banks have the opportunity to provide as many services as we want. Of course, that will be levied through all the potential partnerships with third-party providers. I think this is a very important point that at the moment what we are facing is a new way to interface the consumer. It's not just across the regular channels that we as a bank may have. It's actually now we are opening the door to start working with other companies, fintechs, third parties, where we can start amplifying our product and services to reach out the consumer public. So, saying this, what I'm trying to say is that definitely I think is up to the competitive space of each of the banks to take advantage of these new rules because in the end it's a set of rules and knowing very well the rules that we need to play with is about how do we do better and at least this is the journey that we are heading towards. I think the opposing view from a fintech is quite interesting. I know that pension be done quite well recently, you've been voted. Was it tech company of the year by evening standard? Yeah. So, well done for that. But it would be good to know your views. Nominated. Nominated. Has it been announced yet? Not yet. Okay, okay. I know the taxes in the... Okay, so if you can tell us from your perspective what the opportunity is, what do you think is required to succeed in this space? I guess what we have always looked in terms of the advantage open banking might have for us is it will make products like pensions actually much more accessible, much more understandable because pensions is like your money for tomorrow. And if you can see that alongside your money of today, that's what open banking enables you to do. So we knew that we would never be the place where all the account aggregation would take place. We will always be the provider of that data to banks because that's where people naturally will find that information in one place. So, but suddenly for the first time people were able to see their pension balance, a life balance that fluctuates daily. They can make contributions from their bank account into a pension pot and they can see it all in one place. That's never done before, you know. Most pension providers would still communicate with you on paper and ask for red signatures and stuff. Some of them actually fortunately had an online portal and now suddenly you can actually see that in a banking app. And I think that's been really helped us to enable people to understand pensions and to actually encourage people to engage with their pension and save more. So people who have connected their pension balance product within the banks we work with, their contributions shoot up, shut up quite significantly. So suddenly it just didn't went to a cashizer. It actually went straight into a long-term savings product. How cool is that? And I think that is kind of like for the bank itself. It creates a lot more brand, customs are much more happier with their bank because their bank enables them to actually take control over a product the bank might not offer. They will stay with the bank for longer and there might be more lower customers to that bank because they just provide the view of those products in one place. So could you just expand slightly maybe the marketing angle? How have you got from idea to where you are? Being a brand that has been nominated for awards, some of you have probably seen the advertising on the side of the train lines. Can you talk a bit about the message? It is obviously very important for open banking that there are parties who are talking about it because the end consumers don't know much about it. So talk a bit about the marketing channels and messages. So for us a third of our customers daily are signing up through open banking partnerships. So from a marketeas perspective there is a huge opportunity from an acquisition point of view. So one example I can, one of the banks you work with is a challenger bank which is a Starling bank. Starling bank has been at the forefront of rolling out marketplace where people would be able to shop around and add more products to their portfolio. You can imagine that people signing up through an app like Starling for example. We've made it super easy to sign up to a pension B product to start to find and combine process of pension consolidation all in one place. All of those open banking partnerships combined that's a third of our acquisition daily coming into pension B. So it's been very significant in actually building our brand from the ground up. So we're not just using our direct to consumer channels whether that is more performance led or whether that's more brand led. But actually the partnerships like we have with Starling but also with Yolt, Money Dashboard and some of the non-banks more account aggregators has been quite vital in actually building acquiring customers. So there is really that customer acquisition point. So from providers like pension B it's an opportunity there. Okay, and in round the trustee of open banking recently was talking about how we're starting to see the end of the beginning of open banking. People as organisations outside of move beyond the regulation was starting to see adoption in market. And it's been reported that many are saying that open banking marks the end of traditional financial services. So good to get your thoughts on maybe on the impact on the market landscape and maybe how marketers should be treating their audiences differently. Yeah, so I think the market landscape is going to change fundamentally. If you look at where we are at the moment we've got something over 100 companies that are enrolled on our directory and live or about to go live on the market and a queue of about another 200 sitting behind that that have applied for authorisation the FCA. That's significant number of companies. That is going to have an impact on the marketplace. There are varying sizes in there. Some of those businesses are small. Some of them are rather large. I think one of the things that inevitably we're going to see is the arrival of some very big names in the marketplace over the next two to three years. And these will be companies with much more of a kind of, I want to say big tech but much more digital thinking, very customer focused, very much thinking about the experience, the totality of the experience that they're delivering. And I think this will have quite an impact on how people start to perceive financial services and that will ripple right across everything. I think it's inevitable that we see some quite interesting market entrance as a result of what we've done at Open Banking and that will change this landscape I think markedly. You won't feel the impact immediately, but if you roll forward, as I said, certainly five years you'll see that it's had an impact in ten years, I suspect we'll be surprised at how much of an impact we've seen or change in the market landscape as a result of what we've done with Open Banking. Potentially a count of you, maybe not, but market awareness and adoption is still low. Have you got any thoughts made from your observations or a certain perspective? Why that is and what needs to happen? Definitely I think it's about raising awareness. An example, I was in an event, I would say a couple of months ago, where a lot of university students were there and no one was aware about Open Banking and actually I think that's a good indicative of what's going on here. I mean, as Miles was highlighting, we're talking about that there are around 230 TPPs that are in the process of getting certified by the FCA or the National Competitive Authority and start activity within the Open Banking ecosystem, but I think what is important, what we need to mature, is in the entrance of ideas that will generate use cases that will be generating at the same time much more engagement with the public. Jasper has been raising their use case that is about pensions. That's just one. Focus on a particular topic. You can apply these to whatever you want. It's about triggering ideas, triggering implementations that are appealing to the customer, that needs to be very much customer orientated. That's what will generate the awareness to the market because it's not about that we're going to publish papers about what is Open Banking, what can bring to the public. No, no, no, that needs to happen through actually products and services that are released to the market. That probably don't talk about Open Banking? Indeed. Why should they? The whole thing, we don't talk about Open Banking. We talk about the fact that you can see your money from tomorrow with the money of today and therefore you enable people to save more for retirement. Great, there must be other use cases, but let's stop calling it Open Banking because that sounds very technical. Indeed, nobody's going to go up in the morning and say I need some Open Banking. Yes, I need to do some Open Banking today. No, that's not what you want. I want to download and get some of my accounts in one place. That's what you want. Last year, because it was implemented, there was lots of talk about Open Banking, also in the press, and I think a lot of people just went over their heads. That message is obviously really important. Is there an advantage to being a start-up of FinTech who can have a single focus versus maybe a large bank who has a multitude of messages and consumer scenarios you need to talk about? Did you find there was an advantage coming to the market knowing that you were just going to solve one customer problem? Well, the thing is like, there's always a danger when you develop a product that there will be more requests coming in for product extensions or a lot of other stuff. So, for example, do you offer a child's pension for children? Or do you offer a self-employed pension? Or can I open a new pension which we don't? We do pension consolidation and we build a technology platform that you just tell us where you've worked. We know where your pension is. It still does take us a lot of resource and work to do. We're not big, so we don't have deep pockets to branch into other areas. So we're very good at solving one thing. Without open banking, you can imagine that might become a bit too narrow moving down the line because you might have other needs. I want an ISA, but we don't offer ISAs. We're not going to offer ISAs with pensions. So this is the opportunity that open banking brings to more niche players or specialists. The thing about having everything from one brand, I think that's gone with open... Well, open banking will actually accelerate that. So people will have maybe, for example, a first direct bank account. I have a first direct bank account, but I also have a first direct mortgage. I can see them all in the app how great is that. But I do have a market savings account because first direct doesn't offer very good interest rate at the moment like 0.0001%. So I'd rather want to have 1.5%. A 123 account, please. I'll switch tomorrow. But the thing is like, but with open banking... Get the format. Sorry. But with open banking, I can just pull my market's data into my banking app. And so therefore niche players will have the advantage there to actually offer a product and do it really well. And I think the big players, like banks, you will have some of the products from them, but they might not be good in everything. And they just pull that product within the banking app. I think that will be perfect. So inertia has obviously been a friend to the bank for a while. And Santander has historically done well. You've won your customer experience award, which is great. How do you compete against the new players? You dropped your 1, 2, 3 message there, but are there any specific messages that a customer focus that can fend off the fintech competition? I don't think it's about fencing up. This is a particular view. Perhaps another colleague in the bank will say, no, no, no. Don't say that. No, but it's about that, literally, with these rules, it's a mandate that we need to open up our interfaces to the fintechs. So why be reluctant about that? I mean, we need to do it as simple as that. So let's identify ways where we can partner up with them so we can offer, first of all, to the consumers, the highest level of quality in terms of products and services. And how can we do that? Well, identifying where we can apply synergies. As you were saying, you specialize in pensions. That's it, pensions. Well, Santander specializes in multiple things. But, of course, we will see some room of improvements in certain areas where we can actually work alongside with a specific third party provider that they might be experts in those areas where we identify room of improvement. Miles, do you agree? Did you think that banks, this approach of partnerships is the right one? Is there more they could and should be doing for the consumer to understand it and encourage them to adopt the new platforms? I think there's a lot more that they could be doing. I'm going to be a little bit provocative. That's why we sat down here. Insofar as I mentioned that I'm not a banker in my background is telecoms. What's really interesting in telecoms is how organizations, the big telecoms players, have seen their revenues dramatically impacted by the arrival of Skype and WhatsApp and WeChat and Facebook Messenger. Services which, in effect, sit over the top. They use the telecoms infrastructure in the same way as open banking uses the banking infrastructure. What's happened here is that you have a product like Skype or WhatsApp, as examples, who have a fundamentally different, as a fundamentally different business model, and actually the telecoms players have not been able to compete with that. It makes it very, very difficult when actually as a telecoms provider you're faced with competition from somebody who is playing in an entirely different way where their revenues are not coming from subscriptions and messaging in the same way that you are as a traditional telco. I think that's one of the cultural changes that the banks are going to need to adapt to is that they're not on a level playing field and that in a world where, for example, revenue can be made from data mining and advertising and you have a business model that's fundamentally different to the one that you are used to, that can be incredibly disruptive and I think that's one of the effects that we will see. The banks, in my view, are not moving fast enough and don't recognize that threat as clearly as they should do. I can tell you I've spent many, many hours and years working in innovation and in business planning in telcos to know just how wrong I personally got it on some occasions. With hindsight, I think a lot of telcos would have moved further and faster and would have listened to this kind of competitive threat at a time when they could do something about it and now many of them are on the back foot and struggling. But is this a case that, correct me if you disagree, but maybe the banks aren't seeing the consumer demand and therefore why invest in being proactive in innovation? Is there one that trumps the other? Do we need consumers to be demanding new services for the banks that go, hang on, we need to provide it? I tell you what is that, what happens is these things can pop up so quickly and culturally, large or any corporation has at least a minimum of 18 months to be able to introduce something new. Whereas a small digital start-up can bring a new product to market in let's say three to six months if they really work hard at it. What you have is almost like a Darwinian effect where you have digital products which evolve and iterate so quickly and adapt themselves to customer demand that the larger corporations struggle to keep up with that rate of innovation. And what happens is customers see something they want to. They get on board really quickly, you see this in the digital world and before you know it then the large corporation is hemorrhaging revenue, it's hemorrhaging customers in that particular area and it's usually something specific and you'll find that actually then they have to start playing catch up all the time. And that's the challenge with all of this. I think that there is a scope for a huge amount of disruption in the marketplace. And in fairness to the large banks you've had to weather the GDPR storm which we all had fun dealing with and then this regulation comes along and there's a lot of stick and no carrot. How do you adapt from doing what you've regulated to do into meeting the consumer demand and spearheading that? It's a good question. I think there are examples where you can see that there are some clashes between what we're doing through the CMA order and PSD2. And at the same time there are other regulations that more or less raises some kind of friction in terms of how to do this particularly for the authorized push payments regulation from the FCA where we need to be quite straight to the consumer when they are prompted to do an authorized push payment. That means that every time that you do a payment and that payment perhaps goes out of your regular payments you need to be asked multiple times about if you are sure to do the payment. So literally from the customer experience perspective it's not a friendly way to implement this kind of requirement against a supposed to be super slick interface in order to facilitate the consent journey for a consumer to authorize a third party to access or to be able to initiate a payment itself. So there are, I think, plenty of opportunities to do this better as Malcolm was saying. The UK has been the first one to implement in such a way this because you see other markets that in an auto-regulated way they have introduced some kind of initiatives but has been implemented here in the UK where the first and many other markets are literally looking at us in order to understand how can they implement this set of standards in other markets. So I think definitely some maturity needs to happen and banks we need to just acknowledge that there are some risks and we need to be mindful about how to tackle those risks but I would say from a positive way I mean because literally these are the set of rules that we need to work with and I've been saying this already several times. So I mean we all know the UK is a great hub for fintech and for new products and it feels like in some ways we are a guinea pig there are probably some cretis to iron out but we are seeing success with fintech so I'd be curious to know if you can cast your mind back to the day you thought, ah, pension V what was the insight, what made you think you know what we can do something about open banking? I think the first request, I think the first idea when we could use open banking initially was when we have a lot of self-employed customers and they don't say for pension but they struggle to contribute on a regular basis because their income is irregular so why wouldn't you want to connect your bank account with your Beehive, your online account or your pension B app and every time your client pays a percentage of that invoice is being paid into your pension that means that you need to connect your business bank account with that hasn't happened yet by the way it's something we are scoping out but that's basically all the enrollment for self-employed if you think about that, how cool is that? Sorry I used to word cool now twice today but that is a really good solution for somebody who struggles to save for retirement because you don't do it on the monthly basis on the invoice, that's where you thought wow that would be great, that would be possible and then we started to talk about and then we met Starling which was our first open banking partner and they talked about account aggregation so it was all about seeing all your balances in one place we didn't saw the business case initially if I'm really honest but then I saw it myself in the app and I was like wow I didn't know you could do this and I think when it comes back to is this consumer driven or is this innovation driven it's sometimes one or the other in case of the balance it wasn't consumer driven because I wasn't really like research and our customer feedback didn't show that customers wanted that until we've actually build it and we tested it and suddenly overnight we had to stay late and mend the live chat and the sign up because we could not stop the influx of people signing up to pension before the Starling app and it was just great but it was like why didn't we saw this coming so sometimes you need to create something for a consumer to think oh wow this is absolutely great but on the other hand with the self-employed that was definitely driven by customer feedback and having worked on the new experience design for open banking I'm well aware there's obviously some challenges through the consent process you used the word call a lot but were your customers using call because from a marketing perspective they've got to think if we do something what's the backlash what are the challenges we're going to have in our comms and our brand perception so were they all saying call? No they weren't all saying call some of our customers are 65 plus because they're drawing from their pension I say we typically especially our first wave of customers are definitely early adopters absolutely think fix we do are cool as in like you know innovative 80% of our customers are not based in London so we often say we don't do it for bearded James and shortage but we do it for Jane and Cardiff and that's kind of like our real customer she is pension B customer has an average pension of 40k and isn't into open banking all of that stuff she might use as the open banking app but that's our bread and butter for our customers today so I would say it's definitely we're building products for her and she might not think we're cool but we solved the problem and that was lost pensions and she can now see it in one place I'm going to come back to target audiences and propositions I think that's really important for this because I like to delegate work it's your turn so Jacob you've got a microphone go on quick question you talked in the beginning about data security but when we're talking about all of our status in new oil it's not just the security it's integrity ownership on that one so I'd like to have your views on what you think about the actual ownership of data and what happens if along that process some mistake creeps in say for instance you've got a customer with his behavior suddenly gets a foul credit rating and everything is shared immediately and spread immediately how can this person be under control again in correcting this information and who would he or she point at with the wrong information because we currently just look at the fantastic bright future everything is cool, easy and stuff but imagine later on in the future that you're almost scared to share something but you do not know where it ends up and who owns it so can you tell us about that because as a banker the first thing that I learned is risk management like it was hammered in my head first of all from the bank perspective okay but this is already happening you have technology alpha that is called screen scraping where you are allowing as a consumer to a third party and to impersonate you because you provide the credentials of your bank to access your bank account and this is to me the big risk because literally you give that access and they can do whatever they want I mean the TPP may say I'm doing this but the technical method itself to access I mean could is accessing your bank account like you might be doing it yourself so that's happening already what happens with APIs is actually that you provide a specific consent a specific authorization to access a specific set of data so it's not a blank check to the third party to do whatever they want so this is the first point and then in terms of controlling who access because you perhaps have granted authorization today and in six month time you perhaps have granted I don't know how many authorizations and you forgot so banks needs to provide a consent dashboard where the customer have visibility on all the authorizations that has granted and can turn off the consents as the customer considers appropriate so that's a way to control the data that actually of what is happening at the moment and a lot of the work we did with you guys and we did like 200 prototypes on the APIs and these journeys to identify the understanding and communication now there also is a lot of concern around data how important was thinking about the consumer journey and that concern users may have in the work that Open Banking were doing it was paramount this goes nowhere unless customers trust this and in order to trust it we need to have control so it was absolutely fundamental one of the very first things that we started to work on was how are we going to build this and how are we going to make sure that this remains within the control of the customer because if we can't achieve that then all this is for naught Edwardo has said I think we are actually in something of a kind of a step change in the way that customers see and perceive the level of control they've got over their data because if you think about where we are today people have been cheerfully sharing their personal data through social media through all manner of things and Google things and all of that is built up this big profile about them and actually they have very little control over that and I think one of the things that we are hoping that will emerge as a result of the work that we are doing is that people will begin to understand that it is possible to have very tight fine grain control over what they do and don't share so building on the things like the dashboards and the way that you grant consent and how you revoke consent and all of those kind of things and this is a continuing theme in open banking last year we published the customer experience guidelines and that basically spells out in detail what you need to do not just from a regulatory point of view but in order to deliver a good customer experience and that is really all about providing this level of control throughout the customer journey and making sure that the customer is doing this in an informed way but we are continuing to work on how you would for example raise the level of comprehension or speed up the time that customers take to comprehend what is being presented to them and that is presented to them in ways which is easy to assimilate that it works within the framework of the customer journey and actually improves the propensity to share their data through these third party providers it is no small task but there has been some very interesting work done through the Department of Business Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Behavioral Insights team have recently done some work which is about to be published which looks carefully at this thing about scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll I agree when you are signing up to something and they have broken that down and looked at techniques to try to improve the level of understanding and so on and they have come back with some very interesting and simple things that you can do and we are working with that organisation and we will be assimilating that within our customer experience guidelines we are also talking to other parties and sharing experience from around the world where this is also developing in Australia the consumer data right legislation which is about open data is a more broad open data initiative it includes open banking it touches on other sectors as well they have a very similar kind of challenge and we are getting perspectives from what those guys have learned as well and we will assimilate all of this but it all goes together to create a world which we expect where we expect the customer to have much greater understanding about what they are doing, what they are sharing what the purpose is and to be able to control and revoke the consents that they have granted it is extremely important Hi, Ed Koch, Repute Associates Given the context of the financial services industry which hasn't got a particularly strong reputation particularly around the retail the big retail banks I wanted to get your views on what you see as the biggest reputation advantage to adopting open banking and the flip side I expect building on the previous question is what's the biggest risk you see from a reputation perspective so how can you leverage something apparently as strong as this to the brand's advantage rather than simply kind of adopting it because it's a good thing to do Who wants to go first on that one? I'll take that That's a really good question because why just do something for the hell of it there's got to be a real advantage in it for the customer the first question is in any proposition what's in it for me as a customer and I think what we can do through open banking is provide a much richer much more informed experience all around and develop better products simply because we have a much better view of the customer so if you just think about account information in a way it's like a window into your soul into your life everything that you do and what we're beginning to see is people that are developing products which are which are kind of trying to ask the question of how can we take this information and make it truly valuable for our customers and how can we combine that with other data sets in order to deliver things which go above and beyond and help people to genuinely live their lives you know a lot of what we do is about saving time or saving money or making money and I think what we'll start to see is those brands that resonate more clearly with the customer will be those ones that can show how the customer in the value exchange when I say I'm going to share my data with you Mr third party that I get something back which I feel genuinely enhances my life and the tasks that I've asked you to do and that's where I think the brand strength comes into it the better you can meet that need then the greater the brand affinity that people will have you know it's not rocket science you know it's common to any kind of product development but I think what we're doing now is we're starting to take that into sort of new levels there's a great deal of potential for really developing things in a very very interesting way you know and it's not I'm kind of just going to talk about something slightly to one side of this as well is that there are some very interesting initiatives I'm aware of initiative in Edinburgh that I'm partly involved in where the University of Edinburgh is bidding to create what they call a global open finance centre of excellence where they're going to start by developing a sampet for third party providers to test their algorithm and to combine that data set from the financial services side with data sets from other industries I think this is a very interesting thing which ultimately will deliver some very very exciting products very very early days they're doing it in I think quite an intelligent way where it's not just infrastructure based but also investing heavily in training for data engineers and the skills required for artificial intelligence that to me is a kind of fantastic building block for products which in the future really go straight to the heart of the things that people want to do the tasks that people are faced with every day making life easier simpler kind of cutting out a lot of mundane stuff making things more accessible that weren't accessible previously you know I think we're on an interesting journey from my perspective what I'm seeing amongst the companies that are talking to us is that they've gone out of the regulatory phase now they're in the what do we do and it always starts with that proposition piece what's our right to play what do our consumers want should we just be doing it because others are doing it so maybe there's a piece and that's a very important point and regarding to the branding part I mean from a bank perspective definitely we are very cautious because literally you will see third party providers that they will I mean they are already knocking on the door trying to do things with you based on open backing standards and they trying to perhaps lever their brand using the banks brand itself so it's about how you maintain an equilibrium because I mean something definitely is that yes we deliver the standards we are more than compliant we are keen to operate within the ecosystem but it's as well to how do you maintain the integrity of your brand at the same time playing within the new rules and identifying ways to lever your brand as a bank with innovative propositions that will actually be a good service or a good new product to the market so it's not easy because this is new nobody knows perfectly what to do it's about understanding how things are evolving being very careful with the steps that we do but I think the direction is set up we just need to look forward to keeping the pace quite steady If I give two examples just very short two examples of how a bank for example could really add value to something that's available like open banking what if your customer could see if they should overpay their mortgage or they should pay into a pension what if your bank could answer that question because of that information is all available and that's value by offering a tool or calculation or an algorithm to it what if and that's the second example what if the bank could give me an answer how much I should pay into my pension so I get a good retirement because I can see the pension me pension oh well I also have an alter-enrollment pension from work and that's also available through open banking so for example we believe that the pensions dashboard through open banking shouldn't be a very closed knitted thing that's been developed for the last 15 years or so and it's still a couple of years open banking can answer those questions for the customer who's banking with that particular bank how would the customer feel if he or she would get answers to those questions I think that's what we need to think about and that's what open banking can provide I might collect up two lots of questions thank you I have a question about going back to explaining or communicating to customers what open banking is it necessary or at all a bit of background I work for account technologies which is a fintech company we have around 400,000 customers using screen scraping at the moment as was just discussed for most of them but we are on the verge of while we have a lot of customers on open banking already with around 30,000 and before end of September we need to migrate all those customers on to open banking so that's a big task and we are already the largest consumer of APIs in the market at the moment 1 million API calls a day my question is migrating all those customers on to open banking do we need to explain anything to our customers because as Eduardo was saying it's very great because it's about innovation and product which is something that is done between TPPs and banks or together but people who are now using financial services and moving over to open banking do they need to know anything is it about explaining more the safety part of it that is more secure than screen scraping or is there anything else to explain what's the key message of actually in line with that and in line with what Christof said and I agree a lot of the stuff that's happening is cool but when opportunities like this exist everybody is thinking about how cool would it be if we do this but when it goes wrong no one is to be seen so sorry Gunnar Steve now work for Soctrin in the corporate investment bank and we've had our fair shares of experiencing what happens when it goes wrong and so the question is your granny in Cardiff does she care how it works age 65 who does she talk to when things go wrong talking about things you talked about when you scroll scroll scroll I agree but what if it goes wrong not just when I agree who do they talk to so what would be interesting is what work has been undertaken to address issues when it goes wrong because it will go wrong but what I think is open banking and therefore it lends itself to cyber attacks etc etc probably two questions there what's the key message from a marketing perspective and how do you mitigate maybe brand risk from a communication perspective on the first question it's difficult for me to answer that question because we're not in that process of migrating but I would say it feels to me like doing contactless payment cards is kind of like it's the new standard it's safer it's transparent and easy but then again I'm not the best person to answer the question on the Jane from Cardiff question what if something goes wrong I think it's really important when you are connecting when you are providing that information for banks to be used within their banking app that the first point of contact in this case is and has always been pension B when people have made mistakes or things happen at the moment if I'm really honest there's no been money transaction taking place between pension B and banks so for example we are running trials now on payments directly from banks into a pension B product or if somebody makes a mistake and somebody is in a pension wrapper so what kind of process do you put in place so you know cooling off periods all of those things we've also talked about the specific permission you've given a party to connect together revoking that access how easy do you make that to revoke it there are some pretty pretty rigid standards there otherwise we wouldn't even be allowed to connect so putting that aside if something does go wrong if people have questions in our case every customer has their own dedicated account manager and that's point of call to contact to answer your question I would like to add is that the key point here is that open banking dynamics established the liability model where first of all third party providers needs to be regulated I think this is the key point because until now the screen is great person the TPPs were not regulated are not regulated so that's the issue is there now within this dynamics there is a liability model and there are some rules that needs to mature and there is a lot of room of improvement I can tell you two weeks ago we faced that I'm not going to name the TPP but I'm going to name the use case itself a TPP started activity of paymentization services that TPP is processing payments for an airline we had two customers that they arrived to the airport to take the flight and the payment was not processed and the customer first of all calls the bank but the issue was not in the bank was with the TPP they didn't process correctly and they acknowledged that they didn't process correctly the payment they had an issue and they reimbursed the money to the customer because actually the money was and the payment was executed but in the end the customer missed the flight and there was a gap so things may go wrong definitely the liability model and all the let's say all the process that needs to be in place in order to tackle those situations a lot of importance on customer centric product and service design and on the TPPs to make sure that they have that blended model of digital first but maybe backed up with customer support and good integration I can add a couple of things to that as well I think it's important to note a piece of work that's going on around creating a dispute management system which will go live in some of which allows any party to talk to another party within the open bank ecosystem and a set of rules that help to resolve any kind of issues that may come up so that will go some way towards improving the way that the industry deals with these things but I think there's another point which is that we operate a thing called the consumer forum where we invite customer advocacy groups and charities and so on to come and discuss with us all the key issues around open banking and the points you make have been widely discussed so we understand exactly the responsibility there so those do get taken very seriously as Eduardo has said the liability issue the dispute management system those are some of the things we can do I think there is a bigger question and that is around the regulatory framework now to some extent with payments it's fairly straight forward because there's a regulatory framework for all of that I think that there is a gap and I know that there are quite a few people that would agree with me there is a gap in so far as if something goes wrong with the data you share then GDPR of course is quite a significant fine 4% of turnover nobody wants that but what it doesn't do is really do anything for the customer the customer today the customer journey they have to take something goes wrong it has some catastrophic consequence for them doesn't matter what they have to then go to the ICO the information commissioners office and take their case to the ICO the ICO will judge on that they will give you their view on what's happened and then you can then take that to court and take that company to court nobody is doing that and rightly so because it's a stupid thing to imagine that people are going to do that there is a huge regulatory gap that needs to be addressed and that is that there should be much greater control for the customer there should be much greater compensation particularly for things like consequential loss a result of a data breach or something like that and I think that's something where actually the government needs to be applying some real thought making sure that that kind of thing is addressed and I'm optimistic that when we really see what's emerging from this discussion about having a data regulator with real power that that's one of the things that emerges is that there's much greater emphasis on making sure that the customer has looked after because the more data is shared and it will happen a lot over the next 10 years or so people will increasingly share their data the more people will need the protection and the compensation when things go wrong so I think it's a really important regulatory question as well conscious of time one question over here hold on hi so when you look at financial services so great transition questions from the previous one when you look at financial services here we have banking we have funds so off and then we forgot the coolest and sexiest industry insurance sounds a little bit like off-topic but it says what does financial services market here mean so will there ever one fine day be an open insurance or like can you please like financial sentendia do you have an instagram for sentendia UK pardon me do you have a sentendia UK instagram as I can find a handle you responsible for instagram I'm not responsible for that we have a media group and they have everything and do we know of anything that's going to be similar right now I don't other than people talking about yes would it be a good idea but I'm convinced it'll happen I can't tell you more than that one last question hi David Hetling SDLPLC I wonder to how open banking can get in terms of globalization how likely is it and in what time frame do you think organisations from abroad will be able to join the trust framework that you've been talking about this afternoon so if you are an EU company under PSD2 you can passport in you can operate on the open banking trust framework today no problem with that beyond that there are all kinds of discussions going on across different markets and a strong desire to bring greater compatibility between the different standards and you know there are discussions around standardising the standards if you like so I think we're on a journey I imagine that's something that will come along I can't say it's definitely going to happen but I'm pretty sure it will do I think it's only a matter of time it just needs to evolve really it depends as well on the reality of the other markets give you an example here in the UK we have been working with faster payments for more than 10 years already if you go to Brazil that would be a considerable market to compare with they are going to start faster payments scheme as of 2020 so reality is different for instance a payment initiation service without a faster payment capability I mean it doesn't have the competitive advantage like we may have here in the UK so it's things that you need to concede in order to scale up to different regions so as Miles was highlighting the standards are converging in terms of what has been done in open backing with BST2 in Europe so we can start working properly between the European economic area and the UK in particular but then if we're talking about integrating with the US or Latin America or going to other regions time definitely or we're seeing interest from Canada so I'm going to do some quick questions one word answers if possible ok open banking obviously you can influence a lot what's the most interesting set to service you think it will be applied to obviously nothing as exciting as insurance but where do you think it might be most excitingly applied outside financial services inside financial services we've got pensions maybe that's your answer maybe not what's exciting is going to come I think the impact for small businesses is going to be that's where you're going to see an economic impact first and that's really exciting if not pensions I'd say more holistic view on your personal finances financial guidance actually what I see is that regardless of the segment in particular perhaps on the retail one processes that have been taken I don't know days weeks to apply for you will start to see that those processes timelines will shrink considerably because the capability of sharing the data then is about all the KYC can happen in a much faster pace and therefore you will see a lot of those processes that implies that you need to apply and then share data that before was more or less manual you needed to handle a bunch of papers etc that will happen in matter of seconds so the process itself of the application for XYZ kind of product or service will be a matter of time so that's going to change dynamics that is not just financial services but it's actually everything that depends on financial services so if you need to share your bank account details and other things that will reduce and final question what one quick bit of advice would you give to a marketing audience about open banking think about it what it means to have a customer relationship I want to say that ok don't underestimate the acquisition opportunity open banking can bring to your business a third of our customers are quite for open banking everyday cool I would say that technology normally goes quite faster that what people can understand the benefits that that technology may bring marketeers have a very interesting task that is actually understanding what technology puts on the table and therefore translate that into a simpler way in a simple message so people can understand what they can benefit from open banking standards I would say we're a little bit over so I'll let Jacob conclude but obviously thank you very much guys for the sharing of your thoughts if you're hanging around and you guys hanging around there'll be a chance to interrogate you a little bit further because I'm sure there's 101 more questions thank you very much please a round of applause for our panel to the pub that's how I'll end this we're going to go downstairs to Ball's Brothers Awesome Friars which is just a short alleyway from here so very close to the building this is just one of a number of events we want to do so we want to get your ideas for future events we're planning a big one at the end of the year the CIM Financial Services Summit with the World Media Group so stay tuned for more on that and thank you for attending today