 Welcome to The Spiritual Masters, a podcast from Tan Books and Tan Direction in which we look at the greatest and holiest writers from Catholic history. Join us as we explore the life and times in which they lived, an overview and study of their greatest works, and how we as Catholics can look to these masters as models for our own holiness on our journey to heaven. Well, welcome Tan fans and Father Robert Nixon, freshener from Australia. Thank you for being here, Father. Thank you, Carter. It's an honor and a privilege. So in this short mini-series, in line with our overarching series on the Spiritual Masters, we're going to be talking about the great Saint Anselm of Canterbury. And I'm very excited about that. We're going to have a number of episodes diving into his works and his influence on the church and how we can learn from him today to be holier people ourselves. So he's a great Saint, but I'll ask you to begin this series on Saint Anselms with a prayer invoking his intercession. Almighty God, may the fervor, the wisdom and the charity of Saint Anselm be with us today as we explore the wisdom which he has to offer us, this great spiritual director for modern readers. We thank you for the insights into your own divine truth and splendor which you have offered through his hand. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Father Anselm. Boy, I was first exposed to him in college when I was studying philosophy at Steubenville, Franciscan University of Steubenville. And anybody in the Catholic world that goes to philosophy or theology school is at some point sort of tortured with the ontological argument. But we'll get to that. We'll get to that. But that was the first thing I remember about him as that argument. And then another work on why God became man, which really blew my mind. We'll get to that, too. But the other night I attended an amazing presentation and concert that you gave at Bellman Abbey College. And just so our listeners know, Father Nixon is not just a great translator of these lost spiritual classics and Latinists and spiritual director, retreat master, but also just an incredible pianist. And so you gave this incredible, I don't even know what you call it, presentation event where you kind of gave the a history of many of the great Benedictine saints and you interspersed it with concert playing the piano, some of which you wrote yourself. It was just absolutely beautiful. And everyone there thought it was one of the most enjoyable events they've ever been to. I've been to a lot of talks, Father, a lot of academic presentations. I've been to plenty of concerts. But what I experienced the other night at Bellman Abbey was was one of the best events I've ever been to. It was remarkable. But in that you did get to talk a little bit about Anselm. What struck me, Father, was how you were able to talk about Anselm and others kind of in the line of great Benedictine saints. They're not just in isolation. They're not in a vacuum. There's a great story of the Benedictine order, which we can't do in its entirety today. But talk to us about who Anselm is, where did he come from, what time he came in, but paying us a little bit of context for where he falls in the line of the Benedictine tradition. Yes. So when we look at the Benedictine tradition, we find more or less a continuum of saints who've been great writers, scholars, church leaders, beginning with Benedict himself. Then just a few years later, Gregory the Great. Gregory the Great sent Saint Augustine of Canterbury over to England to convert the English. He actually wanted to go himself, but he couldn't because not Augustine of Hippo. This is not Augustine of Hippo, Augustine of Canterbury. He went to England. There was Christianity there in a form already, but he bought them into union with the Roman Catholic Church. He was then followed very shortly afterwards by people like Bede, Alcuin, and the English Benedictine Church continued so strongly. At a certain point in time, not long after this, England was invaded by the French, by the Normans, and it was around this time. In fact, it was at the invitation of William the Conqueror. William the Conqueror, yeah. Then Anselm came over as Bishop of Canterbury. Yeah. So the story of Anselm himself is that he was born in northern Italy in an Alpine region of Italy to noble parents and showed great intelligence and esteem. When he was a young man though, he got distracted by worldly venities, by wine and women and I suppose the usual type of things. But then he had this great conversion experience and he went off to join a monastery in France, Bec Abbey. At the stage, the abbot of Bec Abbey was a person called Lanfrank, who is a blessed, who has been beatified, and he was regarded as the greatest living scholar of his time. So Anselm became his student and studied with him for a number of years and in due course, he became the abbot of this Bec Abbey. And from there, William the Conqueror, after he shifted over to England and basically took over, he invited Anselm to come and to serve as Archbishop of Canterbury. So he was an Italian, right? Is that right? He was an Italian and then he ends up in France. And then went to France and then went to England. I often wondered what language exactly did he speak? The answer is he would have spoken Latin because that was basically the widespread universal language of the church at that time. Now of course, the Italian language and the French language were still in their formative stage. So probably would have been a bit of a mixture of Italian, French, and of course, in England at that time, French was a commonly used language. So a person who would have been skilled in multiple languages, but certainly traveled to different parts of Europe and conversed with people, gave wonderful conferences and so forth without any apparent linguistic barrier at all. Now after he went to England and became the Archbishop of Canterbury, he, in a little while, he fell out with the King. And it seems like this was William the Second, the one who followed William the Conqueror. And so he had to go over to Rome to visit the Pope, to defend, to try to re-establish the freedom of the church there. And so this was a very ongoing thing in his life. He's working for the freedom of the English church. And I think it's still something which is quite an important issue, the freedom of the church from secular influence. And during this time, despite the busyness of his life, he was very occupied as a teacher of monks and clergymen and a spiritual director. And as a consequence, he wrote a large corpus of works which are very outstanding. His best known works today are the work called the monologian, a work called the proslogan, which contains the famous ontological argument, which you mentioned before, Connor. And there's a few other theological classics, Cordeos, Omo, Why God Became Man. But he also wrote a great number of devotional works, a collection of prayers, meditations, a work which is a collection of hymns to the Blessed Virgin Mary, homilies, letters, and so forth. See, I'm always interested in these great theologians who do devotional works. It's very fitting for Tan. I mean, Tan is not the publisher of great theologians. That's not the idea of it. It does publish a lot of great theologians, but it's supposed to be more devotional works. So when I hear, like, I didn't know, I knew St. Anselm wrote these great theological works, but you come around and now you start translating these things and I find these spiritual writings of his. And I don't know why it is, but history seems to sometimes give preference to these theological works and the devotional works kind of get swept by the wayside in it. I prefer them. I think they're amazing. And so the ones we're going to talk about, they're just incredible. And so he was even more so, I think, a spiritual writer than a theologian, but we know him as a theologian. We do, we do. And for those few particular works, which are very important, he's sometimes called a proto-scholastic or the first scholastic. As a doctor of the church, he's known as the Doctor Magnificence, the Magnificent Doctor, which I think is very fitting for him. He writes in his philosophical and theological works with a kind of outstanding clarity, which makes it very easy to understand. Sometimes I think the English translations are actually harder to understand than the Latin original. It's kind of exemplary as a theologian and as a teacher of theology. And so these works, the proslogian, the monologian, they are theology, but in a way, they're kind of reflections as well. So he doesn't make a sharp distinction between pure theology and philosophy and the devotional life. I think this is so important for Catholics involved in theology, not to let it become too dry, not to take the heart out of it. Should we play around with the ontological argument? I think we should, because it's good to know at least what it is. Yeah, go ahead, let her rip. Okay, okay. So his argument is that God is the thing which you can imagine nothing greater than. Now, sorry for finishing the sentence there with the preposition, but so God is basically the best possible thing that you could think of. He has the characteristics of goodness to the highest possible degree, to an infinite possible degree. And he says, okay, so what would you, when he comes to the question of existence, he says, is a thing which exists better than a thing which doesn't exist? He says, yes, of course, a thing which exists is better than a thing which doesn't exist. Now, because God is the best possible, it follows that he must exist because it's better to have an existing thing than something not to exist. And you gave a very good example of that before, Connor, in our conversation when you said, would you rather have 10 dollars, which exist, or a million dollars, which don't actually exist? Of course, an existent thing. So if God is the perfection of all possible characteristics, of all possible attributes, it follows that God must have the attribute of existence. Yeah, I love it. I remember trying to learn this thing and how I somehow committed it to memory. The version I heard is that then which nothing greater can be conceived necessarily exists, which is just a bizarre way of talking. We don't talk that way. And once you sit with it for a while, you start to see it and you say, oh, okay, well, if I'm if I'm trying to imagine the greatest possible thing, I actually have to be thinking about something that exists because existence is better than imagination. Yeah, that's true. And of course, there was part of there was a response to this written by someone probably written by Ed Samuels. But it gives the example of someone who thinks, okay, I'm going to think of the greatest possible island. And he imagines all these things on this island. And he says, oh, also the island must exist, because it's the greatest possible island. And and so and so then refutes that objection. Now, it's very complicated, very philosophical. People will ask the question, is existence an attribute? And it's something to reflect about personally, I find the argument to be convincing. Yeah. But you know, all of our arguments for the existence of God, ultimately come from from the position of faith, which is a grace in itself. Yeah. Yeah. No, on just so our our listeners understand the the reason is called ontological ontological. Yeah. So yeah. So basically, this is a Greek word, which means being or existence. So ons or ends. So a word entity, for example, comes from that something which exists. So ontology is the study of existence. I don't know if there are any professional ontologists in existence, people who actually make a living studying existence as such. But ontological means pertaining to to existence. And so when you were ordained, you had experienced an ontological change. Exactly. A change in my in the fundamental nature of my existence. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I think some of the complaints or the arguments about this particular argument for the existence of God is some people say, well, is it a proof that God actually exists? Or is it just a proof that you need to believe he exists? And it's very subtle. But I too find the argument convincing. There's other great arguments. Aquinas has five, I think, proofs for the existence of God. But this is a beautiful one. And if I recall, and I'm going I'm going way back in my memory, but Anselm was a very pious, a very meditative, contemplative man. And if I recall, this came to him in prayer. This argument came. It didn't come from him working out syllogism to a paper. It did. It did. And I've included a wonderful quote from that very work, the proslogan at the beginning of the glories of heaven. And this is how he begins that work. Oh, my friend, flee for a while from your occupations. Hide yourself from the tumult of your thoughts. Cast aside your burdensome cares and put off your laborious duties. Rest in God and take your ease in him. Shut out everything except for God and whatever helps you to find him. Close the door firmly and seek him. Say now, my heart, say to God, I seek thy face, thy face, so Lord, do I seek. It's beautiful. So it's the beginning of the proslogan. So it's actually is spiritual work. It is a devotional work. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's great. Now, let's let's shift to, again, I haven't looked at this in 25 years, I guess, but but the the why God became man. If I recall, you know, you know, that that art, the one thing I remember from that is he says, he's grappling with the question, would the incarnation have happened? Would the second person of the Trinity taken on a human nature if man had never fallen? You know, because we often think that God became flesh to save us. Well, that's, I mean, that's true. But would he have come if we hadn't fallen? You know, yeah. And I found this to be a completely beautiful, very inspired answer that he gave. And it has it fathered, there's probably a dozen main things I learned in college or grad school that have really shaped my thinking going forward. And this is one of them. It was the idea that God becoming man, the incarnation was so glorious that the reality of that is actually greater a reality. It's a greater glory than our salvation, you know, because we're kind of minuscule compared to God. So Anselm is saying that he would have still become man, simply for the glory of uniting humanity with God, which is an even greater thing than the salvation of man from the pains of hell. Indeed, indeed. So, so the idea and this is something which theologians have spoken about over many generations about whether the fall and the redemption was actually part of God's original plan. And the incarnation, of course, and the incarnation should be understood as like this wonderful overflowing of the love and glory of God. So it serves as a revelation of God's glory. So the idea of Christ coming wasn't just to repair the what humankind had lost, but to do something much more wonderful than that. And if we think about it, you know, the joys of heaven with the infinite glories of heaven are going to so much exceed the limited joys which mankind had in the Garden of Eden. So it's not simply a matter of restoration, but an overflowing of God's grace and glory. Yeah, absolutely. I often think I'd love to ask Anselm, you know, who was a brilliant but also saintly man. I'd love to ask him, you know, I mean, this is this is very anthropomorphic, I guess. But what I've often wondered, what was the dialogue like in the Holy Trinity? They're sitting up there in heaven. And Father, Son, Holy Spirit sitting around saying, Hey, and someone said, I got an idea. Let's become man, you know, in the face. Is there any volunteers? You know, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, you know, I mean, I mean, I am, you know, I'm sure it was far more sophisticated than that. But I find that incredible because it's I have reflected on this, I've written a little bit on it, Father, and see if this makes sense to you. The idea of the incarnation is almost crazy. Like it's, it's so, you know, I got chickens outside my chicken coop. Imagine one morning I wake up and tell my wife, you know, I've decided to become a chicken because I love my chickens, you know, I've decided to become an ant because I love the ants crawling around the ground. I mean, that's God saying I've decided to become man is even more outrageous, you know, and it's a it's a form of love that I just can't comprehend, you know, why in the world would he do this? So I just, I grapple with that. In fact, it's such an outrageous idea that it could only be divine. Like you and I couldn't really come up with that. You and I couldn't really come up with this. It's the idea of the incarnation in my mind is only a divine idea, because it takes an infinite amount of love to even come up with this notion. It is. It is. And, you know, that that's very right. It's something which is a great, awesome mystery. And it's for this reason that we bow our heads every time the incarnation is mentioned, creed or whatever, we don't bow our heads at the mention of the crucifixion or death. And this, this supreme mystery, and I think Ed so grappled with it so powerfully. And this is something which is beyond the comprehension of any theologian, but at the same time, all these different reflections on on its necessity, on its meaning and on its mystery, I think are wonderful, very enriching to read. And I think the people that have the most insight to these realities are not just the scholastic theologians, but they're the holy prayer warriors like Anselm was, you know, who combine the heart and the mind together and come up with insight. Now, on that note, why don't you walk us through his other work. So you've we've mentioned his theological works, but talk talk to us a little bit about, you know, the books you've done for us and anything else that comes to mind. Oh, yes. Well, amongst his devotional works, one in particular is the glories of heaven, which was originally a series of conferences he gave to the monks at the great French monastery of Clutie. So he would travel back and forth from England and around the continent very frequently. And he had this monk, Inmar, who was like his scribe and student, who carefully copied down this conference. So it's it's wonderful to hear him speaking to a group of young monks about the joys of heaven. And the other work, which I've translated for 10 is his dialogue with the Blessed Virgin Mary. And this arose as the consequence of him spending a few days in serious prayer and fasting and vigils. And he has this vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary and speaks to her about the passion of her son. So it's a very moving work. Are there other works that you might be translating in the future? Yeah, there are a few other works. He wrote something on the Immaculate Conception, which is which is a wonderful work and a number of other things as well. Immaculate Conception wasn't that something that was really pretty debated at the time? I mean, we didn't have real clarity on that until the middle ages. It hadn't been defined as a doctrine at that time. I mean, it was it was still a very common belief. And I think there was the feast of the Immaculate Conception, especially in England, interestingly enough, was was a broadly celebrated feast there. But it was only later and actually only in relative recent times that it's been defined as a dogma of the church. How would you how would you, you know, say his life ended up, you know, so he had some exile, you know, with his conflict with the king, I guess. But I mean, how did he end up? Do you know anything about his death? How did it all end for him? Yeah, yeah. So he died at a fairly advanced stage. He was born in 1033 and died in 1109. And his death was a typical monastic death. He was surrounded by, you know, by his monks, by his monastic president. It was very peaceful death. Yeah, yeah. What's his end? What's his, you know, we've sort of talked about it, but, you know, how would you say, particularly as a Benedictine monk yourself, what's his legacy within the Benedictine order? Are there other saints that you think of that built on his work or were heavily influenced? What would you just say kind of his legacy within the order is? Well, his legacy is as a great theologian and writer and also as an example of what happens to a lot of Benedictine monks. They enter a monastery seeking a life of contemplation and solitude, but then often find themselves called upon to occupy positions of leadership in the church and to to negotiate business and so forth. And this was something which happened very much to St. Edsel of Canterbury. It happened very much to Bernard. I was about to say Bernard, it happened to him over and over again, and he was about the same time. He was, yeah, yeah, very shortly afterwards. I'm curious if they ever bumped into each other. I don't know. I don't know if they ever met, you know. You know, that's an interesting point. Well, see Edsel, Bernard would have been about 20, I suppose, when Edsel passed away. So it's probably a little younger. So yeah, his influence is unmistakable. My experience, you know, in the church is that we just we don't recognize him enough as a spiritual master. We recognize him as a theologian. And I hope my hope in these podcasts and in these works that Tan can really promote the idea of we need to be seeking his intercession in our lives and we need to be modeling. He's a model for us. We need to be emulating his daily life and the way he lived. So doctors of the church are often thought of as just these smart guys. And he's a doctor. We forget that, right? I mean, there's only 37, I think, at the moment. So I mean, he's a doctor of the church and you don't get that just by being smart. You get it by being smart and holy, you know, indeed. So, you know, I hope that our series here influences our listeners and our readers to to invoke St. Anselm. There's no reason he should not be a spiritual director in our daily lives, even though it's over a thousand years ago that that he was born. So anyway, with that father next next episode, we're going to turn to my favorite of of his of his works, the passion of Christ through the eyes of Mary. It's a fabulous work. I got a million questions about it, 100 lines, you know, underlined. I mean, it's just such a joyful thing to read. So next time we're going to we're going to dive into that. But for now, thank you for being here and God bless you. Thanks so much. God bless. This has been an episode of the Spiritual Masters, a podcast from Tan Books and Tan Direction. To follow the show, learn about more inspiring holy men and women, and to get special offers exclusive to Spiritual Masters listeners, sign up at spiritualmasterspodcast.com. And thanks for listening.