 We are now in a time which I call half time and half times we have throughout our lives. We have it in politics, we have it as a company, we have it as people. Now what is the future is what you, what you, what I do, what each one of us does, that all these little, little, little mosaic stones will form the future. And if we are strong enough, if we, if we tend to say I'm too, too small, I cannot move anything, then nothing will happen. And I'm not talking about bigger evolutions and, and you know, burning down something. But in our world, we can, we can do the best. And we cannot change the systems. The future will be the big picture is that under the leadership of China, emerging economies will gain importance. We will have to adapt to a new competition. We will have to adapt to all the digitalization in our working world. We will, we will have to deal with unpleasant and pleasant consequences of these developments. But at the ends, we are the creators of our world. We, we decide. Doris Nesbitt is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine, Trend One, Trend Company, as we can see Niels here in the picture. We also see Doris Nesbitt right there live. So excited to have her here. I want to tell you a little bit about Doris. She's our special guest today. She is the co-author of Mastering Megatrends, which came out in November 2017. The co-author of Creating Megatrends, China's new Silk Road, came out in May 2017. Co-author of Global Game Change in 2015. China Megatrends, co-author in 2010. Co-author of the China Model in 2011. Co-author of Innovation in China, 2012. I hope you're getting the trend. There's not only a Megatrend, but there is a trend here in general. And we're fortunate and so lucky to have her on the show today to speak with us. She's also the author of How to Get Where You Want to Go in 2015. Mai Lin, Mai China in 2012, and has written columns for China Youth Daily, Youth Digest, Vietnam Black, Hong Fu Da Run Chao, China Business Focus, Cao Kung Pao, and Himalayan News. Nesbitt China Institute was founded as an independent non-for-profit organization in 2017, and it is its goal is to analyze China's economic, political, social, and cultural transformation with local teams in China cities and provinces. Now I could go on and on because Doris and her husband, John, have been doing this for a long time. They've seen and heard pretty much everything I would say. I've got the two books here that I really want to focus in today. Obviously, Megatrends is very famous. And then another one here, Mastering Megatrends. And I welcome you Doris to the show. Thank you for bearing with my long introduction, but it is an honor and pleasure to have you here. Thank you very much. And then I want to introduce Nils in just one second here. Thank you very much. And I'm very happy to be here with you. It is our pleasure. Nils Miller is also on the screen, as you can see. He is not only a good friend, but the CEO and founder of Friend One, a Humber company that is actually international. It's all around the world, I believe. And Nils can tell you better or not, but he is the trend expert for Germany and around the world. He releases papers every month with minimum 250 trends and speaks all over the world every single day. Just before we jumped on this podcast, he was on a call and doing an event online. So I welcome you and we are actually fortunate all to know each other and to be speaking about Megatrends. And we said, you know what, we need to have John or Doris on the show to have a deep dive discussion about things. And Nils was the one who brought it all together. So I really thank you. And we're not going to beat you up, Doris, I promise, but we really want to get into a deep dive dialogue with you and kind of pick your brain, because you've just been doing this so long and you've been there every step of the way with John. And we want to hear all about it. Thank you very much. It's such an honor to be here with you, Mark and Doris. Also, for me, Nace, Doris and John are such a front runner in the future market and trend industry. I'm a big fan of the trend industry because my company is part of this trend industry. And I think you've been the first in the market publishing books around Megatrends. And I have one with an individual signature for me. So for me, it's a really great session here to meet you live. And also, please say hello to John. It's a really honor to be here with you. And thank you for, Mark, to organize everything. I'm glad that we're all here. So without getting past the introductions, we have a lot of questions for you, some thoughts and ideas that we would like to share. So both of us, we've used the phrase before with you in our first discussion, Doris, about futurists. And that we deal with a lot of people who use the phrase, take the phrase futurist into their mouth and claim to be futurists who are doing this. And during this time of pandemic, the true futurists really came out because some of those who had taken that into their mouth, they were all of a sudden disappearing or really panicking because all that future talk really didn't come out. Nothing happened. So they didn't apply it into their lives. They weren't prepared. The businesses have shut down. And so with what you and John have done over 40 plus years, probably, that I want to know, has that given you resilience? How have you weathered this pandemic? Has that helped you weather the storm or say, boy, we've been talking about some of these things for a while and we applied some of them in our lives. And we were, we had a little resilience and preparedness during this time. Well, you know, we have said not only once that we are in a way lucky to be in the age we are, that we are not young people who are just building up something who are just maybe opening a new entity, opening a new restaurant or store, and are really now in a very bad situation. Compared to that, we can sort of lean back comfortably, can read a lot, can can do whatever we want, except that, of course, like you, we are very much cut back in our travel activities, which we enjoyed very much. But apart from that, we belong to the lucky group of people who are not in a bad way, really hit by that pandemic. That is wonderful to hear. Were there any things where you said, wow, this is really unforeseen and aha moment where even some of the things that happened during the pandemic, like Black Lives Matters or maybe what happened in Belarus or with a U.S. election or anything with the drastic blame on Wuhan and China for different things? Were any of those things eye-openers or were you said, boy, that even caught us off guard? Or can you give us a little more insight on during this time what you've experienced? Well, let's begin with the end of last year. We were in China end of last year, 2019, and there was no sign. We were, in fact, we were traveling to Chinese provinces and everything was optimistic. Everything was positive. We have been to Wuhan. Actually, we were invited to do more studies on Wuhan, but, you know, it's not so easy because it takes, we did a study on Chengdu ones, and that took about two years to really understand what's going on there. So we didn't spend too much time in Wuhan, but we learned it is a very modern city. We had a lot of contact with the local government and not surprisingly, like most governments, local governments in China, they're very well educated. They can pray up and down the Viennese School of Economics. So it was a very, very, very interesting time also this last December in China. And then we came back and then we heard the first news about a breakout of an unknown flu virus. And just like many others, you know, we, you know, we have been in China in a three city tour during SARS. And we remember that they offered to us to return immediately. We said, oh, no, we just stay and it will be fine. And I must say, despite any look into the future, we did not have to look into the future that told us this is going to be such a pandemic and in a way tragic for many, many people. So while we were like many thinking it would pass sooner or later, we were all surprised by how fast it really became the dimension we now know it has. Given the other things you mentioned, I mean, you cannot really be surprised what happens in America, except that maybe the polarization will lead to a positive polarization and a better and more thoughtful idea and understanding about what's the underlying thing behind Trump's success. And that is the polarization of the country that is the underlying racism that's still there. And one can only hope that we are at the doorstep to a better era now. And an era where the American people may be also under the sign of a pandemic that heats people of all kinds, all colors, all social levels. Maybe that's the time when Americans can really understand that it is what unites us that made the country big and not what separates us. Can you give us a little bit more, if you don't mind, a little bit more insight into your and John's background? And obviously, you're almost global citizens, so you travel a lot, but you're both speak English, and I don't know how many other languages, but German as well and where you live. But that, what kind of culminated that you've got this big future vision and this, not only thinking about the trends, but also aspects of all around the world, not just China, but things that are going on in the US. Is there any path or upbringing that kind of moved you in that direction? Oh, I tried to cut that a little short, because that's a long story. First of all, I met John when I was head of a publishing house. And one of our editors sort of passingly said when I was leaving to a Congress, oh, you just get John Mespit for the house. And I said, no problem. And then I had to deliver. So that was about 26 years ago, there was the Congress, John was the keynote speaker. And I tried to catch him, but he was nowhere around. Finally, just by coincidence, he was passing me, I dropped everything chased after him and told him I would like to publish his next book. That was the beginning of our story. And neither one of us you can, you may understand, if anybody would have told us, you just met your future husband and wife, we would have just left. But we started to negotiate. I flew to New York, he flew to Frankfurt, and then he flew to Vienna. And very quickly we found that we had a very good understanding and a very good sense of what's important. We sort of both big picture people. And John said yes. So we published his book, Megatron's Asia. And from that moment on, I arranged speeches for him. And we started to cooperate more and more. And then because we liked each other more and more, we got married in the year 2000. By that time, I was still head of a publishing house. But I decided that it's important to live our life together. And not, I had several offers of German houses and our house was already bought by a German house. I wouldn't have spent too much time with my husband. I would have been, you know, traveled for the house and working for the house. And he would have been traveling the world. So finally, we were just in Singapore, I decided that's it. We spend our life together. We work wonderfully together. That was in the year 2000. And from that moment on, we fully concentrate it on our work together. What's so important for my opinion is that to really get a picture of the world, you need to travel the world. And John and I, I cannot tell you how many round-the-world trips we did. First of all, we always had speeches all over the world. But in addition, we added to the travel to the cities where the talks, where the conferences are, and chose more remote places and needed time to really talk to the people on the ground. Because of course, we had the wonderful advantage that we were too. We were together 24 hours. We got up in the morning. We could talk about the things that were important to the world and to us. We could, we met people together. We could discuss our work together. So it's about the most wonderful life I can imagine one can have. Besides, of course, that when you have a very good marriage, it makes everything much easier. Yeah, it's always not that separation. You know, how was your day at work? I mean, you kind of are on the same wavelength. That's a much better way. In some respects, I almost want to say that it's also the precursor of a mega trend on the future of work. So to say, you know, there's books like The Business Romantic where Tim LaBerich talks about, you have to have this romance in the work you have to do. There's Frederick LaLue reinventing organizations where there's more and more these couples and people that really try to work together and have this lifestyle or romance in the way they do the work, that it's not separate that you're spending 40 hours a week, one place, and your partner's 40 hours elsewhere, and then you kind of meet in the evenings on the weekends, which is very minimal time and regurgitate how your days were. And so I love that, that progress and that future way of thinking. I know Nils has some real important questions for you as well on mega trends as well. It's such a wonderful story with you and John and for me it's interesting how do you see the futurist industry the last 26 years, like emerging and changing because it's a very young industry. I once met a guy in a Delta plane to New York and he said he's in the mining industry and his industry exists in 3,000 years. So 3,000 years ago they had the first industry associations and came together in the mining industry and he asked me what I'm doing and I said I'm in the trend mining industry. At my industry the first people did this was like face popcorn or the little card or you and John Naysbitt and this is like maybe 40 years ago or 30 years but not 3,000 years so we are in such a young industry. So for me it's very interesting to see the last 26 years from your perspective how did this change, how did the futurist and foresight industry emerge? You work a lot with governments, do they more and more on a professional way use the future insights, use the mega trends, also corporates. They just start to build up departments using foresight, using scenarios, pictures of the futures and how do you see the change in the last 26 years in our industry and are we becoming a real industry or are we part of consulting or keynote or market research or are we a known industry and how do you see the emergence of the industry and the future of the industry? Yeah I think you're asking a fish how he feels in the he or she feels in the water so we should consult with people who have an outside inlook but you know when I got to know John and as a publisher of course his brand was futurist and he always refused, he always said I'm not a futurist, I'm a nowist, I am monitoring what's going on in the world now and that allows me to make conclusions for the future. So basically this is what we both agreed on. If you want to anticipate what will be in the future what you have to do is like you said it nears very well mining. It's work, you have to on one hand read a lot, have different sources, on the other hand you have to be on the ground to check because the mood in the country can tell you something very different than what is written about the country or an organization and so forth. In general I would really like to make a difference between people who focus on the big developments on big trends or mega trends and the many who are actually concentrating on consumer trends because there's a big difference and I think there's a justification why so many concentrate on consumer trends because mega trends do not change every year. They don't come down like rain in spring and summer rain and autumn rain but you have a new mega trend that's not how it happens. The real mega trends that John was writing about in 1982 are still in place and there will be time before there will be such a big shift as we had it from industrial to information age so we have to be careful about the frame in which we operate. Are we focusing on global developments like geopolitical developments or are we focusing on what is happening within mega trends which are various consumer trends which of course are also influenced by mega trends but so I think there are two categories and we have probably not been very good in watching the market of futurists. We were much too much concentrating on what was interesting to us and we were both focusing I said a little earlier that we are both big picture people so very early on in 2000 it was also clear remember John wrote mega trends Asia in 1995 it was clear that Asia is going to becoming a very important player in the global community and I remember that as a publisher there was the Asian financial crisis and I had a report of an important magazine called and said see see last bit was wrong last bit was wrong we have the financial crisis Asia is out and that's you know you cannot you cannot see mega trends by looking at a short frame and then you know a bomb in the road throws you off and out is the mega trend and you are looking for the next one that's not how it goes that's why when you're really focusing on mega trends you need to have the big picture and that drove us more and more to China because that's where most of the happening was going on. When we take a look back into the 1980s we had even a bit earlier after the Second World War we had such an Americanization of the world so we have all over we have U.S. brands and U.S. products do you think we will have like an asiatization of our world more and more also with the Belt Road and seeing more and more Asian products in our markets Asian brands business models like WeChat coming into our market will this be like the same wave effect we had the Americanization and now having the asiatization the next years? You know it's very interesting because in the year 2000 no was it 2001 when China joined the WTO was it 2001 or 2002 you can correct me please we were talking to a lot of Chinese and they said will this mean Americanization for China but then came the year 2008 and the financial crisis in the West and all of a sudden China became aware that the West is not invulnerable and their self-confidence rose you could feel it you know every time you came there was a little more self-confidence a little more critical look today if we jump another 12 years there is a very strong self-confidence there is an awareness that China is going to be the number one economy in the world I mean by PPP it already is but you know in absolute figures that is there but the big question is how can culture I mean the question that is is for the Chinese can China become culturally as influential as the United States and our answer is it will take a long time because it's not only that our affinity to Chinese opera is not as strong as to you know Gershwin or so that's another hurdle but the American way of life is so different from the Chinese way of life you have a 5000 year old culture which is in the bones of the Chinese their look to the government their look to society their look to to social orders everything is is different but that is part of the Chinese way of life and that is very hard to export other things have been exported very quickly you know what's it called martial arts and other things that was picked up even calligraphy and Chinese paintings the art market has exploded so that yes but the the the aura of freedom the aura of fun the aura of just conquering the world in a in a in a cultural way that will take time and that would be certainly a goal that the Chinese would have but you can you can strategically probably and obviously become the economic leader of the world but you cannot strategically become the role model of the world that's not possible you you bring up an interesting point Doris that I want to touch on it or see if there's a little bit more to it when I read your books that comes out to me but I want to check I just had a professor doctor Matias Glaubrecht on my talk show last week and we spoke about his book the end of evolution he's an evolutionary biologist and he says you know for evolution to evolve it's millions of years to hundreds of thousands of years for for that type of evolution but there's this collective or cognitive cultural evolution that occurs it's it's much faster than normal evolution but it's still pretty slow and we're seeing that that's changing a lot and evolving a lot and in your books it's not these megatrends there is a strong aspect of cultural evolution or cultural trends that emerge can you go is this kind of what you're telling us and can you go a little bit deeper into that for us you know as you were asking this question I was just thinking that we have in a way a sad situation because we are losing the the cultural positive influence of the West this is sort of fading away and we don't have really a cultural strong positive influence that is replacing it so what are we going to merge I mean what about our values when you look at the United States today the admiration if you if you have a clear picture is not there anymore if you look at Europe you have 26 members who cannot find an agreement on relatively simple questions if you look at China well China has its own strategy China wants to be influential is influential but in a very different way so if we talk about cultural influence we can we can talk about music but the stream is still more west to east we can talk about art the stream was a lot for a while Asia to Europe so and then we can we cannot put all Asian countries in one pot you have so many different structures so many different ideas models personalities even though I have to say if you if it comes to our human needs we're all the same and if if it comes to talking and understanding and finding people with whom you can exchange you always find people with whom you have an easy understanding but I couldn't give an answer where the cultural direction will be in the future I think we just have to the responsibility to contribute as much as we can whether it's literature whether it's values whether it's other things that we can contribute or interesting podcasts people can listen to meals do you have something to ask I think the US culture was so easily to export because it's so explicit it's it's always very well explained very clear brand very clear value proposition the US culture is super explicit because they learn to be explicit because they they had so many different people in their country all coming together the whole world coming together so they learned how to explicit explain things and when you look back to the 3000 year old Chinese culture it's very implicit it's like all between the dots because they learned 3000 years how to communicate like the Japanese culture as well it's super super complex and very very implicit it's so much between the dots between the lines what you say in the air and this is American it's like not in the air it's like really explicit coming out just do it yeah and so it's difficult to to export like such an implicit asian chinese culture is super super difficult and now let me let me add I think it's nowadays we are in a world where we are not only in reality where culture happens when we when we look at our kids where they grow up like three four or five hours a day then they grow up in virtual reality so this is like a parallel reality like a digital parallel reality where where also culture and art happens where they meet in three-dimensional virtual rooms doing art like building blocks like Legos building universes doing we chat and instagrams and and and use youtube's and and all the content they publish is is in like in a parallel universe which is which leads us like to in hybrid reality and also the world now is much more connected so maybe maybe we go the next narrative of our culture will be like a real global hybrid reality culture where it's it's more mix and mingle you know it's not so easy anymore it's it's more like coming all together on a global scale because the whole world is connected via airplanes but now even through the virtual remote everything connectivity I think you know we have a diss we have an advantage and we have a disadvantage I'm talking about John and me uh we our children are grown up so we could do whatever we wanted to do the disadvantage is that we are far behind uh in our understanding of of the worlds in which kids are moving and you are absolutely right the Asia is exporting a lot of these games and there's a mix in this culture which is enormous and we have a friends whose son or two sons actually are totally in this culture and that mixes up even though to a high degree with an American influence still but that mixes up the two worlds so to say yes that's that's I think the wonderful example is esports esports is so popular in asia and it's clear that it's sports and you meet like 50 000 people in an arena in a sports stadium and watching other people gaming on esports and they are really like heroes and champions in in their in their society and in in in Europe and in the US we still talk about if this is really sports and they just do gaming and should be considered as a sport so I think there in in in asia things happen so so much faster and also so much more in the digital universe that for us is like sometimes complex to understand what what the culture of the future of will be and I think it would be really global and hybrid yeah but uh you know I'd be skeptical to not overestimate the digital world because at the end our needs and our our desires are still in the real world and when you are our personal needs and and I'm talking about and when you when you move in china it doesn't matter whether you use the subway whether you are sitting in a restaurant or whatever you do the people are glued to their phones and it's a very sad to watch a family sitting at a dining table four people playing games or uh uh reach out or do whatever with other people and losing uh the interaction with each other I mean after all as nice as it is to be on video if we could sit here together on a in a living room and see each other and and just be in the same room that would be an increase at least for my opinion so this game playing you know all all the parents of the children that I know they have to limit the time because the children are sitting alone focusing on their uh uh diverses whatever they have and and and the social contact to go out play games uh with their friend uh learn not how to solve a digital uh you know friction a digital fight but a real fight how do I find a common ground with a friend not with a digital friend whom I can turn off if I don't if I get too tired so I think we have to to balance these high tech uh possibilities with the human needs that we still have if we take a look at human needs like working and and sex and entertainment and all this is all happening virtual nowadays so you have I think more than 50% of the people in the US doing marrying marrying met online so more than 50% met online is online was a place so yeah and and this this is true to everything we have remote remote sports like people do sports fitness studios at home we have we have remote work we have remote entertainment we have remote sex we have remote work we have remote shopping I don't know about that but everything we have to take your we'll have to take your word on the remote so maybe 2020 is the year not for the pandemic but for remote everything yeah so when we look back in time and looking back to the year 2020 when we are in 2030 maybe we say this this was really the year where everything went remote right and this is a new reality also also my parents told me I mean when I grew up was like three hours a day the kids were watching telly and this was like oh no you telly is so bad you don't need to watch telly go out on the street and play football or something like this yeah and and now yeah now they do something else and I think every generation has this new new paradigms and ways to way to connect this this is the reality it's set from our perspective but it's it's the for for the kids growing up nowadays as it's their world yeah but it's it's it's a world that's not richer for my opinion because and and you know I'm in an age where you can say oh yeah the grandmothers have you know these old-fashioned ideas but let me just take one of the things that's reading now reading is not only that you can say I read this and that and classical literature modern literature it's because you learn how to express yourself and Wittgenstein wrote a sentence which I really love he said the borders of your words of your language define the borders of your world and if you are not able to express yourself because you are used to all these shortcuts on the various devices you use then how can you how can you convince somebody of somebody how can you present a project how can you how can you express your opinion how can you perform in whatever you do if you have not an education that teaches you how to express who you are and what you want to be when I look at tiktok they the kids express yourself and tiktoks in very very short videos and I think our brain not only works with text and books but also very well due to our 200 000 year evolution where there was not so much text in the last 200 000 years we work very well with pictures and moving images our brain functions like this and our kids learn to express themselves in five or ten seconds videos which is also very strong to really pitch what you want to do and it's maybe in I understand what you say that this is important to to to to to understand all this like big picture of the words but I think it's also a new way to express yourself with videos absolutely absolutely and let's be honest not everybody is interested in the big picture of the world because everybody is interested especially now what's happening to me and what's happening in to my environment what's happening with the my goals how can I realize my goals how can I do this and that so I I think the big picture you know whether which country is gaining or losing in the importance in the global community is a little further away when it comes to the problems of unemployment and health problems and so forth so you're absolutely right and also we have to admit that each generation has in a way its own language yeah and and our grandchildren communicate in a different way than than our children and I mean my age and in our and we ourselves so I think that that is something we have to consider in every age we had in the past so and so many years I want to pay the devil's advocate a little bit and get some more insights on China so I think a lot of the megatrends are moving from pushback from Asia and China to not let the United States or other others bully them as has been done in the past where we we just recently saw it as well last year where China had a strong pushback on taking the United States plastic trash and other trash that this isn't you know no you can take it again but there's also this trend from from China where um and I call it this and I don't I don't know if there's another term Niels or Doris you would probably know better than I do but it's I call it hacking the system so if if there's embargoes or problems put into place via trade where they're not allowed to to to do any kind of a trade trying to just hacks the system they'll take it and import it to Malaysia and then export it from Malaysia or take it to Thailand and then take it from there whether it's honey or food or whether it's computer parts or whatever else but there's also this big pushback that China is not only not anymore the cheapest place to get your products done it's one of quality it's one of high standards a good worker ethics in a lot of areas from coffee to computers you know whatever we look at and that there's now more pushback that if if if we're going to produce your products we're not going to be the cheapest because we're not going to take that total environmental impact here in China so that you can thrive and benefit from your iPhones or whatever technology whatever garbage you we're not going to be your world's garbage and so that's a big whether you call it planetary services mega trend that China is saying we're not going to play that game anymore i'd love to hear your thoughts or if your ideas are the same in that respect as well i think just to to be on the big picture which i think is very important in understanding China um in the year 1921 uh when the communist party of china was founded they made the 100 year plan to by the year 2021 have a country of modest wealth you know just think for a moment a hundred year plan none of the people who were sitting there uh making that decision in a country that was you know destroyed and and and just in a terrible situation um making a plan that in 100 year we want the the mass of our population to live in modest wealth this was the one frame the one frame that china put up the next frame that china put up was in 1949 when they said that in 2049 the final victory of the socialism with chinese characteristics will be in place and now what you have to do to understand the thinking is to have to put everything china is planning uh and doing into that frame because um no matter what setbacks china had through the first hundred years to 2021 they reached their goal and uh here we go to a very strong difference that we have experienced from the top top leaders to the the people on the street you know the street sweeper it's a learning society they are like sponges when they meet you whether you as a country you as a company you as a person they want to get anything they can learn from you out of you and then apply it into their life their uh company their country in a way that matches the frame in which they operate uh when you look back to 1980 when uh deng zhao ping was coming into power he made an absolute u-turn because he understood that the country couldn't get to the goal couldn't reach the goal if they continue the path so why there is one unshakable truth that is the the uh ruling of china's communist party they are willing to take the turns that are necessary to reach the goal and that brings me back to your question mark uh that uh of course china doesn't see itself in the year 2049 uh being just the workshop of the world or just uh getting the garbage of the world or whatever china sees itself as a country as a middle kingdom at once was and most of the the centuries if you look back it's a surprise how often china has been the largest economy in the world uh it sees itself in that position and they want to reach everything that's necessary to be in that position and have which will be difficult in my opinion and have the the acceptance in holding that position so uh whether it's an economic cultural social goal uh everything is within that frame and and and when you look at certain developments put it in that frame and ask yourself uh will that serve the overall goal despite that china is willing to make extra tours new tour new times everything that's a very it's very it's very cultural but i i sure as hell wish the united states would adopt that long term uh type of vision when policies are made uh multi-generational i mean there's so much short-termism in policies and politicians in the united states where it would be nice that that for the for the rest of the world but also for the us if some of the policies they made were also multi-generational of a hundred years and not this short-term quick fix things which which ties back into the cultural aspect of that but i really appreciate you touching on that uh doris i i wanted to kind of give you a little bit of a kudos in in combination with a question and there there is an author that i had on the podcast his name is thomas yuli he wrote a book called human business and um it just barely came out during the pandemic which is a whole another nightmare to go through when when you release a book in lockdown situations but he quoted john uh in his book he he gave a nice quote and a recognition to you where john says the most exciting breakthroughs of the 21st century will not come because of technology but because of an expanding concept of what it means to be human and that throughout all your books is something that i love that both of you really touch on that human aspect of trends and culture of where we need to go because there's not just that one aspect of a trend of technology or that there's a strong human factor to that a culture almost and um so i'm not sure if if we answered all neil's questions more because we really wanted to focus in on the china mega trends and whether whether you have any more insights for us what we can expect as major mega trends specifically for china and that's that's basically been your focus as well with the institute oh yes um what we did was uh uh we you know we started the institute in in tianjin and of course focusing on on china doesn't allow you to just be in one place so we moved around and wherever we were we had local people there to to help us understand different things for example something that's totally strange to us is the household registration system where you are bound with all the benefits social benefits to the city where you have your i can't think of it now the the name uh where you are registered as a person and when you move to another city then uh you have to pay more you have to pay more for doctors for schools you know these are certain things in the in the chinese social system which go way back which are a huge challenge for the local government and for the federal government to to overcome how do you solve that problem without overburdening other systems so that's one of the challenges that china for sure has to overcome this challenge of the the social system not to not to mix it up with what the system that they are now establishing in in not in the whole country but in in various places the social credit system which is a plan to improve the moral the ethics of the people and uh you know as a not very unwanted side effect to be in better control of the people but also when you look at china the people in china are receiving that in a very different way than we receive it they see it that it's also a protective frame we see such things just as controlling frames but in general you know the chinese are so eager to uh to become more global not not in a way of losing their chinese being chinese but in a way of spreading their chinese way to the globe they're very good in business um when you do business with the chinese uh don't try to put them in a too tight box because they hate to be put in in too tight boxes because things could change and then we need to make a turn and then we have every move is a single paragraph how can we move uh how can we make the most of it if we are in such a tight frame so um the the the past to china is certainly that it's uh going to do everything to become the leader and it already is a leader in in certain technologies it uh it is not interested in anymore in in all the technologies that hurt the environment it's a it's a building up of self-confidence it's a building up of let's educate our children more and better it's a but all under a we could say increasing strong influence of the government thank you so much there i mean there would be one last comment that i'd make to that and then i'll turn it over to neils and and uh i don't know if you'd have anything to say i in uh 2017 i hosted um uh conference of the party see the united nations a a plan area that was the launch and presentation of the global energy interconnection which is a chinese driven uh movement to create a renewable energy grid around the world not just china around the world and it's spearheaded by um a company called guide co and it's in partnership with this global energy interconnection that is really pushing that the world becomes not only global citizens regardless of chinese rule and regime but that we have a global infrastructure and that's you know what neils mentioned earlier with the the the new update of the silk road basically of what's coming there and what what affects long-term and big positive effects and maybe maybe some cultural effects as well on on society but those are um those are long-term infrastructural mega trends in my opinion that change the way we we have we we take care of the basics not only energy infrastructure but also how we feed each other and how how things are done and so um it's amazing to see those progresses in the world because of of china's long-term vision of the future um if you i mean china has already taken the lead in green energy and if you you know sadly if you come from china to the united states you think you're going back to the stone age of trains you know you go when when we were in in in uh december in in china just as an example we went to another province 450 kilometers away it took the train one and a half hours to be there you know you step on that high speed train you go with 325 kilometers per hour and you're there and and it's not complicated you don't have all the hassle you have in an airplane and china has such a large network of of of these high speed trains already the the transportation everything is so so much state of the art much more than if you look to the united states and that's something that that certainly is a result of how can we learn how can we not only learn from the achievements of other countries but how can we also learn from the mistakes to other of other countries and we've been to cities in china i could tell you it was terrible because you you you you could hardly see your hand in front of your face and this is changing because they understood that the the the communist party of china they can tell the people a lot about economics and global developments but they cannot tell you you have a blue sky when you can't see the next house so it is very much to their their own bone to clean the air and to have a clean environment for the chinese because if people died because the the the food is is so contaminated with all kind of medals and so forth you know you have the damage in your own country you got to clean your house first and that's something that they understood and it's to their own benefit and and then they're smart enough to want to export that you know it's it's i i i also think the past olympics that they that they had there where there was all the problems with the air pollution and and that was also a form of a black guy that they they don't want to ever relive and so they're they're really pushing hard and i've seen leaps and bounds of things occur all throughout all asia just to to fix that problem yeah go ahead sorry uh one of the things that's really significant um when we are when we were traveling in china no matter which city uh and we were invited to the governor to the to the mayor and to the party secretary who is always the most important person uh then they sit they ask you questions and they listen to you how many uh people or leaders in in in the west have invited chinese people to listen and learn from them you know uh mark you mentioned the books i wrote for china's youth we did a book tour uh and it was fascinating we were giving talks and had discussions with students two thousand nine hundred six hundred in many different parts many provinces of china we were never told what to say we were we sometimes asked is there any subject because you know it's not necessary that we make a a fuss about something no just say whatever you want and have a discussion whatever you like you know and then people come the the students came and they said you know just so that we have western people we have you here and we can discuss with you and our teachers our professors are enabling us and the same is we you know the party school is the the the that's a big compound in beijing where all the the leading politicians have to go periodically to be uh reeducated it's kind of a a government university to be to stay the state of the art well they invite westerners as well to speak there and we were invited to speak about democracy because you know in in in one of our books we had compared the democracy that china as china understands it as a vertical democracy where you have to keep the equilibrium between the top down forces and the bottom up forces and that's the balance that such an autocratic system has to keep the equilibrium between the force of the people and the directions the government gives while we have a vertical system where you have uh mark you said it where you have interruptions every four five years and you can have your terms every four five years because neils as you said there cannot be a consensus that let's have a 20 year plan for the united states to eliminate racism and we will all together work on it no that's not possible that's interesting yes if you look at this the three leadership models in the world then then you have the us model where they say everything is possible it's like grassroots you can be a startup you can you can become like a Elon musk yeah everything is possible like bottom up and and then you have the chinese model which you just explained which is like very very good top down alignment and bottom up power and which which is very very powerful because we have so many orientation from top down and so many people from the grass would really want to do something and and then you have the european model which is kind of like a middle management you know it's it's it's like it's a sandwich but it's all in between and we have to discuss and we have to involve thousands of people to do and this decision in our associations in the middle management so there's three different leadership models if you know you have so much experience like with mega trends and also what mark said in developing people and developing leaders uh what advice would you give and that's maybe my final question what advice would you give to to leaders uh how they how they can lead in in their business for society and for the planet for for the next 10 years for the next decade yeah yeah well you know i don't want to sound too grand um because it's difficult enough to be a leader one has to admit too but uh i think that uh one of the things is that we need leaders who are above average we have too many average people making a career in their political environment because they are good in whatever it takes to move up the ladder in their political party but not because they are good in what is good as a vision for their country yeah and i think this is very much a moral question what are the what are the what's the mission a person has is there a mission or is there just the goal i want to become whatever uh get into whatever position i uh there is i think those idealistic politicians that for example after the war when when the countries were really in a very bad situation and and the first idea was how can i serve my country it's it sounds very idealistic but at the end that's what the profession of a politician is about and politicians should be paid better if i run a country why would i have a lousy payment and and other people who run a company have 10 times 100 times what i made so we need politicians with a moral standing with a vision and i don't know how to get that that's so true thank you very much we need great visionary leaders with a mission such such a nice closing because this also mark comes back to our core human skills what the world economic forum said what are what are the core skills i like to be a creative inspiring imaginable leader with emotional intelligence and negotiation skills but but very much important is like this inspiration power visionary leadership yes yes one thing that i would add to that is we we need that visionary leadership but more than anything we need politicians to be diplomatic we need them based in the skills of what dora said earlier to listen to be diplomatic to to hear all sides and to have that instead of just to have politicians pushing their next term or their short term in office i mean there are so much i'm wasted in these processes where you know it's a year to get in the office then they get in the office and then there's another year wasted until they get up and do anything and it's such an inefficient as we're seeing worldwide and inefficient system i i actually have a couple more questions for you doris if you don't mind and the the the biggest one in my opinion is the the hardest question it's the burning question wtf and i do not mean the swear word i mean what's the future yeah the burning question is wtf and it's to you what's the future i i truly believe this can only be answered for each person for yourself uh we are now in a time which i call half time and half times we have throughout our lives we have it in politics we have it as a company we have it as people now what is the future is what you what uh you what i do what each one of us does that all these little little little mosaic stones will form the future and if we are strong enough if we if we tend to say i'm too too small i cannot move anything then nothing will happen and i'm not talking about big revolutions and and you know burning down something but in our world we can we can do the best and we cannot change the systems the the future will be the big picture is that uh under the leadership of china emerging economies will gain importance we will have to adapt to a new competition we will have to adapt to uh all the digitalization uh in our working world we will we will have to deal with uh unpleasant and pleasant consequences of these developments but at the ends we are the creators of our world we we decide when we're in a half time you know we are we are always uh either intentionally or it's it's imposed on us we get in these periods which which which i call half time and then we make a turn to this or that direction and uh uh you know when right now as uh john gets less mobile this is a half time we have to deal with we have to see how can we make the most out of the situation and entrepreneur who is now who's who's whose ground is taken away because of the condition the environment of a pandemic has to decide how am i uh reorganize reinvent my business and i think that's what we constantly have to do that these uh times in which we have to reinvent ourselves in which we have to try to be a positive influence in our small environment and then in bigger circles as much as we can into bigger environments this is uh the best contribution we can do and not just lean back and wait and see the the last question i have for you to wrap up our podcast is basically a sustainable takeaway for our listeners i would like you to depart one message to our listeners that has the power to change your life or influence them and the caveat to that is is a lot of supposed futurists or our business leaders are those looking to the future as well as trends as well a megatrends they're reading your books you are setting the course curriculum for a lot of people on the future of their movements and and how they do business and so if you had a message to depart to them the power to change our future their lives what would that message be you know when we tend when we look into the future or when we look at whatever is of interest we tend to seek uh and find something that confirms an opinion we already have so this is the big danger when you want to look into the future that you have to uh watch out how you make your judgments try to step back from your personal opinion try to look at things as they are and uh independent from your emotions you know that's very important we 80 percent of our decisions are driven by emotions try to to step back from your emotion and look into your business look into your environment look at yourself and try to cut down on pre on a preset mind and try to cut down on the emotion and the wish to get confirmation for what you are already doing be open be open and willing to make a change Neil Doris thank you so much I really appreciate it and that's all I have unless you have any words of wisdom final thoughts that's it thank you so much fantastic closing thank you thank you thank you so much Doris and we wish you and John a wonderful holiday season and that you arrive safely in 2021 and we see each other soon and maybe catch up again on some of of your other work I'll put in the show notes your new updated website and some of the links to your books so that people could come out and and check you up and support your your institute as well thank you so much Doris have a wonderful day