 for the yeah yeah so it's recording we are now officially recorded good I am also recording I started recording from her side as well Julie so perfect I'll go through the policy reading as usual guys as we are used to do this linux foundation antitrust policy linux condition meetings involve participation by industry company competitors and is the intention of the linux foundation to conduct all of its activities in accordance with the applicable antitrust and competition laws it is therefore extremely important that these dates meeting agendas and be aware of not participate in any activities that prohibits and the applicable U.S. state at all of foreign antitrust and competition laws examples of types of actions that prohibit linux foundation meetings and in connection with linux foundation activities that describe linux foundation antitrust policy if you have questions about these methods please contact your company council or if you are a member of the linux foundation feel free to contact and re-up the growth of the firm of cashmen of the global which provides legal counsel to the linux foundation hyperlager is committed to creating safe and welcoming community for all for more information please visit our hyperlager conduct code of conduct so perfect here we are uh we start meeting and it's my pleasure to work in this morning actually evening for him you know it's on the outside world exactly we are the opposite brandon actor from trade winder it's great honor for me to work in the very first speech by a guy from lcroa so i look into you brandon to have this presentation and great to have you today yeah great speaking here as well i'm looking forward to uh taking everybody through what we're going to talk about today which is international trade future self and the digital twin so what we're going to cover off is we're going to do a little bit of an introduction into myself trade window what a future self is we'll cover off our digital twins some of the barriers that we need to overcome to achieve this thinking differently the trade twin uh technology enablement and future self digital twins and then what then there's a an opportunity for some q and a so a little bit by myself i'm brenda mackinac and i'm the cto at trade window i'm down here in new zealand that some people sometimes forget to put on the map but we are down here in the southern hemisphere and i've got 30 years technology industry experience real passionate technologies team builder but also a norm changer and this is a picture of our team that we've got down here at trade window so i'll tell you a little bit about trade window before jumping to talking about digital twins so we were we're a startup we're founded back in december 2008 and we've got 70 fte's across new zealand australia and singapore we've got a growing customer base of over 500 leading exporters and freight forwarders from from new zealand and growing in australia we've got the backing uh from asp that was part of their innovation they see funded us and then we've had a number of other significant investors like quayside holdings we're one of the very few uh non-bank uh swift registered companies so we've got our own big code and that allows us to listen in on the on the swift network and we're part of the pan asia e-commerce alliance we represent new zealand and australia in the pa here we we went right from the early days um the the ison uh 9001 and 27001 really setting us up for kind of success in that from the outset and our purpose is really about defining uh uh trade across uh global supply trains i'm really connecting all the parties and really delivering that trust and seamless end-to-end digital trade so we we do about 34 billion total value of export goods through our platform um about 160 plus economies 130 000 sets of shipping documents every year and which is which equates to about a million export documents that we generate per year really focusing on um uh new zealand's primary industries around produce meat timber dairy seafood and growing into australia and asia park so we like to think of ourselves as the trade super connector um and that's a real verifiable source of data and documents and yes we have built on the the hyper ledger platform so we do operate decentralized nodes which includes hyper ledger and also some decentralized storage and through them nodes allows us to share uh data documents and and really bring that trust and and we're not just interested in necessarily operating our own nodes and we will have uh we're building out more nodes across various different uh jurisdictions to to create that that trust in the platform that we operate and we've done we've got a connect platform which allows interoperability with other networks and that can be public chains doesn't work with trade trust or some other private blockchains like with the likes of trade van so through our products at cube that sits on top of all this we've got various different trade documents that we exchange uh data we've got finance products and data acquisition products integrating with the likes of museum customs international customs through partners uh straightforward those exporters and importers and bringing them all together through that end to end seamless trade so that's really kind of brief overview of what trade window is but let's look at what we've come here for today and that's this is some of my observations and thoughts there's a world of opportunity before us in international trade so this is just some thoughts around what we're seeing and what some of the opportunities are so one thought I'd like to put there is future self what do we want to be within international trade so if we take Dr Gilbert I don't know if any of you have actually seen this uh Ted uh Ted uh show and this is Dr Daniel Gilbert explains the bias that we've got about ourselves and our future selves our possible selves and it's not somebody that we discover but somebody that we decide to be so this is you start telling people what we want to be so future self we tend to think that we're the person today is always going to be the person that are always going to be and future selves looking at them possible selves can serve as a roadmap to really guide us as individuals of where we want to be in the in the future and that's really important kind of taking this and then reflecting on this and what does that mean to us as what our future self is from a trade perspective so future self of trade we don't have to be defined by what we do now we can really start to engage and deliberate practice over time so we grow into what we we want to be in that ever evolving story and we take action and we invest in building our future identity so if we think what we want to be as trade in our future self is connected interoperable actionable predictive and trusted and to be able to do that we've got to think forward we've got to create the stepping stones we've got to think about that what that roadmap look looks like and what are the steps to then take us to our future self so one of them future selves is a digital twin and we've seen the emergence of digital representation of these with inside the physical world so let's just have a look at where the kind of the birth of the twins has come from so way back in 1970 the NASA Apollo 13 represented their means to be able to represent the data around the Apollo 13 then we start to see in the mirror world's book when they first start envisaging the concept of digital twins and then 2002 we see Michael Greaves then start to really apply the concept of digital twins to the product lifecycle management and 2010 John Vickers of NASA then really coined the phrase of digital twin and 2019 is when Gatner then reveals digital twins are entering the mainstream use in organizations so let's have a look at the digital twin hype cycle so 2017 it started to enter the innovation trigger on the Gatner hype cycle 2018 it entered the inflated expectations 2019 Gatner started to say that it was entering mainstream use with inside organizations but 2020 we then start to see new innovation triggers appearing for digital twins and this was around the person and the citizen and we're already starting to see some of this in use in smart cities 2022 Gatner expects that 85 percent of all IoT platforms will then start to include some form of digital twin monitoring but 2013 is when we could see the emergence of a trade twin into that innovation trigger so what are the characteristics of a digital twin well it's about connectivity modularization it's smart it's got traces and it's modular what does that really mean so connectivity it's about connecting the physical to the digital it's about connecting organizations it's about connecting parties to one another but it's also about connectivity between digital twins the the modularization is that virtual representation of that physical world creating that data similar and smart being able to remotely adjust self-adjust and have acts around it and traces leaving that historical digital data having that audit trait that can prove what actions were taken around it and it's modular as design and it allows customization so that's the that's the characteristics of a digital twin but what's the use that we've seen today seeing the day we've seen the use with inside manufacturing we've seen it in predictive maintenance and aerospace and starting to see emergence with inside connected vehicles and healthcare being great interest around the customer the citizens smart cities but beyond the manufacturing process the supply chain is really kind of lag behind it's focused on iot and logistics and so much more opportunity now we can use digital twins in what we need in the problems that we've got before us so what we've seen today has focused very heavily on the physical world the physical world applications iot providing that monitoring feedback and predictive and and recording the effects with inside the the physical world and that just kind of supports what we're seeing around people describing iot and iot devices on containers as as digital twins so what we've got at the moment is a very kind of closed ecosystem it's limited to certain business process it's very application focused and it's lacking open standards and we've got very little synchronization between parties and no relationship no relationships between twins themselves so what barriers do we need to overcome in trade and digitization there's a lot of legal and standards frameworks so let's just look at what's going on this is an example around Asia pack of what's happening around model law this the ratification of sorry so so the ratification of the model law so here we can see i think that was an echo brandon sorry okay mute please okay no problem so legal is a block for us at the moment we can see Singapore is really kind of leading the way around ensuring the electronic commerce electronic signatures and electron transferable records there's a number of initiatives going on to ratify model law around the world and this is this is an app this is the big rock this is the big rock without this we can have wonderful technology but without this being unblocked then we're going to be we're going to be locked into not being able to truly to take advantage of transferable records but the the great thing of kind of COVID that's come out of this is that it's really kind of driven initiatives to address electronic transferable records so legal ratification we've seen Singapore and they're really leading the charge on model law the G7 with the digital technology track annex 4 bringing in the various countries Canada France Germany UK US etc around that and and the United Nations model law and electronic transferable records the UK law society is a pushing for adoption so to really kind of help with the with digital is having that adoption of legal frameworks and here in New Zealand we're doing what we can here with with government to inform them around what needs to happen to unblock this data standards are really lagging as well and the different technology regulations across the jurisdictions and this is from the world economic forum fragmented markets higher capital requirements as a complexity of technologies intensifying so standards key enable so we need to think differently about our future self and digital versions of the paper that we've got today and not the only pathway so we take let's take bill of lading as one example it's used for that freight receipt of freight services contract between the carrier and shipper document title all the legal bind and invoicing and finance that's associated with that there's problems it's paper there's fraud there's admin costs there's practical issues we all know the problems around this and the DCSA are saying less than 0.1 percent are issued electronically but taking what we've got today in paper and just doing a digital representation that is not a digital twin so evil is a step forward but it's not the future self so what are some of the options we'll trade twin taking that digital twin concept and applying it to trade so we think about entities and objects and not paper so we don't think about an evil and trying to reproduce that with inside a digital form we think about the objects with inside trade that are needed so that could be the shipment it could be the container within each of these there's various different aspects that are needed they need to be interoperable they need to be identity associated with that that that digital twin actions can be taken around it and it can be connected there's orchestration that needs to happen on that and the data needs to be verifiable and as that twin is interacted with there needs to be an audit trail and it needs to be mentioned there's only some so much information that would need to be exposed to the various different parties but if you think of the objects of trade that we have today around the shipment around the vessel around the goods these are the objects we should be looking and seeking to define rather than just digitization of paper we've got the technology in our toolbox we've got APIs we've got blockchain we've got tokenization capabilities and decentralized storage and we can start to define interoperable standards and we've got cryptography so let's just look at a few examples of what they could be if we take something like finance the bank the bank needs to see certain information to be able to validate the data ensured there's no fraud detection around that do their email kyc and approve that but for that they need to know things like the identity the data it's not necessarily about just that they've got an invoice the bill of learning and other documents around around trade we want to know the parties and the relationships around that and the terms that they've agreed to insurance similarly wants to know who has done what what are the jurisdiction of the goods at any point in time if we take if we take two businesses the import and the exporter they could have a relationship with the digital twin for the goods and that's got an agreement which is some deeds of them particular parties the it means context based now and you can have smart execution and payments associated with that we've got containers they're in an environment so there's environment yet that yes that's traditional and iot kind of information but we can also really understand understand that container the environment it's in the movement that it's gone through any releases or demand forecasting technical logistics there's again there's events there's release there's packaging there's warehouse and who's who's under whose jurisdiction are then goods so as you can see there's there's a whole kind of different objects of information that are needed that will drive workflow that data needs to be shared that has an identity but has monitoring in that we can we can have access to what's happening in the real world around that digital twin but also importantly being able to control that and drive the workflow so here's a trade twin maturity model i've put together and we start down at level zero and that's really just taking the paper that we've got the moment and turning that into a model representation so taking the certificate of origin the commercial invoice the packing list the bill of lading and representing it in a model then we start to turn it into a object virtualization so that's then thinking of the goods the container an object description it's localized and it's still linked back to that that that paper then we start to build out canonical models we've got a shared model anthology taxonomy we've got validation against that now we can now start to do data exchange got the activity and history that have been performed on on that trade twin then we look at integrating how do we exchange the information how do we add digital identity signing and tokenization hashing of information so that trust legal finance can now start to operate on it and hashing allows so that full disclosure of the information in in the twin don't doesn't have to be made so validation of whether an invoice has been presented before by just using hashing of certain information around that allows that to to be checked without full knowledge of what's in the the invoice then we can start to analyze we've got the historical data being able to report on that and incorporating iot into into that trade twin then it's all about connecting twin to twin we've got the different objects and then building relationships and dependencies and orchestration between them open APIs and this is where the the interblocking really starts to come to itself we've got shared events and we've got relationship digs which allow and we'll we'll cover this off later on strengthening some of that that identity then we start to move to predicting and this is because the twin is operating in the real world it's starting to then understand what the future events could be and the changes that are happening in the real world and what that future flow could look like so then level seven it starts to use machine learning to then start to prescribe what action should be taking remedial actions there could be a delay or finance contracts is in issue and it's then assisting the decisions to the human in what remedial action should be taken the nirvana of getting to level eight is when we then start to make these twins autonomous they include decisioning and the twins are informing one another but also taking remedial action themselves almost like a trade twin cyborg so technology enablement we we have quite a number of tools we just need to understand which ones we take out the toolbox so one of the big areas is trust of data and parties who what is permission done order well and through that decentralization of trust so digital identity for us there it's not just a technology but buzzword it promises a complete restructuring of the current centralized physical and digital identity ecosystem into a decentralized and democratized architecture so we all know about dates and here's a is a is an example we've got a webdive we can do high high pleasure in day there's a sovereign network but the digital identity is about the people the organizations the entities and the data yes we can do self sovereign we can have multiple sources that strengthens the identity that we're carrying it's about the source the action verification and it's permissioned and through that we get the the trust of the data and the parties but beyond the date is the decentralization of trust so the decentralization of trust when we've got the the the digital twins and we've got dates associated with that we can then start to build trust through the relationships through the actions that have been taken on the twins and that's a lot more powerful than just the did in itself because you get the the network effect of organizations assets and data so if i'm an exporter and i've interacted with an importer using a freight forwarder using this carrier of these transactions every interaction is building out that decentralization of trust so what are the what are the enablers so to really achieve this technology we've got the blockchain we've got the dates we've got the decentralized storage rooms we can do the chain to chain we've got the cryptography we need to start to establish the interoperability standards describing the trip twins there's some great stuff being done by the imda we've got apis and really good work being done by the dcsa there's the gs1 starting to think around the standards and the shared canonical models but the thing on the left the policy and the legal the model law this is the real without this enabler and the signatures and the transferable records then the other two are just not going to succeed so three interlink enablers are what's really needed to supercharge the trade twins so to really shape our future and think back to what our future self is and if we want to go down the path of trade twins there's no winner takes all it's about collaboration we've got to find some adoption wins within the inside the ecosystem got to look for where we want to be what are some of the stepping stones that we put in place to be able to achieve this we can't wait can't wait for the slowest common denominator within the ecosystem establishing interoperability the standards importantly the legal and we've got a good handle on some of the technology this brings in some of the addresses some of the cyber security and trust i trust identity so really future selves can serve as a roadmap to guide individuals from where they are at present to where they imagine being in the future back to what doctor gilbert said so if we think about the trade twins how can we create our future self where we can use a trade twin so together let's build our future self and that trade twin i'd like to hand over if there's any questions thank you brandon i was very interested in presentation so i will leave it down to the audience to you guys share to ask for questions it's good occasion hi brandon it's eugenio here i i just called my time because i'm raising my hand so nobody i'm just i would like to share a few suggestions because i think your your presentation it's kind of working through the future no yes and so i try to take few notes during the your presentation and and i wish i would be you and we can maybe use this as a starting conversation after and with all the audience here the the first uh and probably one of the most uh powerful picture you you showed to us it's uh the slides where you may see all the different level into these let's say global digitalization digital trade adoption yeah and my my consideration and in your opinion where are we now in this in this in this pave and this pave forward and in my opinion we are around level five to six and we are moving to the of course it's not just it's just my consideration and and of course you may see different status on different let's say micro regional areas of the world of course maybe Asian Pacific different from what may be another another zone of the world but that that is just to start and my second consideration is about the enablers and i would like also to add to your to your uh suggestion one different perspective which is more focusing on what uh cannot be so flexible so the geography i think we will have let's say in general terms some global standards which will be related more on on the technology itself on the software like iso like i or others and then we will have a local enablers uh which will be more focusing on let's say specific uh regulation and specific best practices let's say or common understanding uh which may be agreed at the micro regional level like in asia pacific and and and and leading to the to the third point i think this is in essence what i believe the intent what i'm believing the intent of project like the pan asian uh commerce alliance uh because from from trade perspective we are seeing uh national trade windows adopting or testing dlc technology at national level and for the trade and so we will see we will likely see uh all these nation uh merging together under some common enablers two specific uh goals like enforcing um regional and commerce operations like you mentioned in the in the connection economy so this is just really uh are sharing a few questions but also for you no no no i'm showing really good points there so on that kind of maturity yes if you look at if you look at certain isolated um aspects of of trade that there's as as as mentioned that there's the iot on uh in tracking and that's considered that's considered digital twin but the the kind of the the real challenge um to that is it's it's it is very uh very isolated and it's not really around the the object so the object of of the container so it's just one of the debt feeds into that which tells the environmental aspects of that container but where has that container been and who's who's done what and who's who's who can take the the actions around that and i think that's really kind of a game changer in starting to to think of the real world and how we can interact with that through through the digital twin than just relying on exchanging documents or even digital versions of the documents we've got to move beyond that and yes it might be uh looking at things in the future but you know to the to the point around future self is where do we want to be where do we want really want to be with this so when we take the next step when we take these stepping stones is it truly taking us to that destination or is it is it taking us off on a tangent with with a course that's then harder for us to then pull back on so i i think how do we start to adopt some of this is is looking some for some really good kind of use cases that can kind of demonstrate the value um say across the the PAA members of uh exchanging some of these these interactions with um you know we don't we don't have to we don't have to boil the world we can we can pick off some some really some some some kind of pointy um uh use cases um around demonstrating this but yeah it is it is finding them and and and please you think we're we're up at level five i think we're probably a little bit lower down in in that maturity model but it might be that particularly use case you're looking at okay okay i i like sorry genio i like what you said random you know especially regarding to the iot it's good interaction between real world and digital world so it's kind of new uh to the world of trade namely you know it's quite independent uh from what happens in the real world so it's it's kind of creating an interaction between the two worlds yeah sounds of a revolution for for the industry and i mean in my in my vision you know you think about documentary credits you see how independent to taking data from real world to an abstract world which you know so so close look it's a real deal it's no real revolution yeah might lead to having different products side by side to the traditional one that's in my vision real revolution that we were about to to bring on um you know i was talking to you in an event earlier you know during this month i was you know uh what dlts are about to bring in the industry is new way state borders to interact between them and that's real fun you know uh taking a leaner approach into interaction between the stakeholders with what we have going to have you know real revolution is that and we have to make clear otherwise we come to you know results in the future yeah uh we have a few questions friend and for you in the chat and the very first is what kind of increased business we can gain from digital twin i think you know uh maybe john think or uh what is the point at it what are the advantages of going for digital twins well yeah i mean obviously you know business yeah so people think of like always the iot is the one because it's kind of simulating that you see in the real world but you know think around some of the the data interactions they're around an object and the the the benefits is is being able to interact with that and have that that one canonical model of that but understanding all the interactions i've gone on all the interactions that are about to about to occur as well so being able to share that really brings efficiencies around synchronization when we look at some of the higher levels of maturity with inside them the trade twin is is starting to bring in some of that that automation and orchestration of of other twins so a good example might be we know that the the goods are delayed that has a that might have a a knock on effect to logistics in the receiving company it might also affect the finance around that so the synchronization of the the finance agreement for that for that particular trade so there's as it starts to pan out then you get the the synchronization between and you get the the efficiencies of of the trust that when when the events have actually occurred so i think it's a huge opportunity obviously let's say we don't want to kind of boil the world and it's just just picking off some to really kind of demonstrate some good use cases there are a few other questions you know check there is another one coming from bank atush batney what do you see trade twins in short-term and long-term timescales yeah okay interesting so we we've already here at trade window we've already started on this journey and so we've already started preempting it and started building digital twins and which which include some of their early stages of that maturity model around representing you know what does that model look like what some of the identity mechanisms and and what what why why so what how can we kind of take that forward and share i mean particularly around pa a membership we want to we want to share some of the models that we've got there around these digital twins so that we don't have to do point-to-point integrations with every other window in in uh asia pack we can start to agree and and start to step through that maturity model together so short-term starting it um longer term uh getting to that that nirvana of level eight i think that's a that's a good few years off but we've got to think about our future self we've the the industry does take a long time to kind of move so we've got to start putting them stepping stones in play so we can we can get to that future self it's quite a long journey i heard it is it is but an exciting one yeah that's a challenge i mean when you have a big challenge you know that's why you get the most satisfaction you know it's been a slow moving industry for centuries if you think so you know it's quite a challenge to move it forward in a short period there's a strategic question for you randon are you planning to expand to india um because the answer is pretty easy at the beginning yeah so we work with the paa members and the paa members in india as well um so that's we see uh to the point there's there's no winner takes all i think uh connectivity and connecting with different parties in different jurisdictions is is how we all win together uh so through paa we're building really strong relationships with each of the countries and uh the the parties there okay it wasn't now the question um randon for you i'm sorry what are your thoughts in the african continental free trade area and digitalization of trade this is spawned samura with mahalu i'm not mistaken pronunciation i'm sorry if i did so um yeah it's i mean i'd have to look at what the the additional what the what they're doing with inside the the african free trade area and the digitalization initiatives that they've got love to know more please connect with me and let's understand what that means for africa please reach out it's not one last question i know two more questions the first one sorry my computer is so slow this morning is there any member in pakistan yeah you know it's pretty similar area to india i don't know whether the i don't know whether the is as um i don't know it does include pakistan okay and again this is not a question we've another question about yeah jonathan carl just curious since paa was mentioned so many times as a member of paa for ten years i'm not sure whether paa is right for i think many do not come from hand at how paa works yeah jonathan here yeah hi hi everyone good to see your faces put put some faces to to the to the names i am not presentable i'm in my pajamas so i shall not turn on my video i i i i i i am thankful for for this presentation i got to learn more about digital twins concept of digital twins i think it's very useful very interesting very futuristic but i i i i'm just curious because i i i hear paa mentioned so many times and i understand uh trade windows has just joined paa but uh compared with paa and other regional connectivity for example uh you know the asian asian single window and other uh regional uh uh uh alliances and association uh for example the asian single window is uh government led uh 10 countries government led and then of course you have got the uh our set uh free trade agreements that has got uh some digital digital content you also have got uh now digital trade partnership uh singapore with new zealand with chile you know some of these new uh bilateral or multilateral digital trade partnership maybe those mechanisms would be useful for digital twin yeah yeah well yeah absolutely jonathan and yeah i mean we've spoke about pa uh previously we've had a few discussions uh between ourselves and yeah so look it was let's let's explore what opportunities there it doesn't have to be limited to pa where where as a true window we're really kind of building out that relationship but for this concept for this digital trade uh twin concept yeah it can go much much further love to explore how and other mechanism pathways that it could be adopted thanks there's one more question random what are the current challenges with technology solutions and what is your suggestion to all the countdown yeah um i think the the big one uh and legal there's the legals uh not technology blocker but that is that is the big thing that needs to needs to be addressed but from a technology uh point of view is identity identity is one of the key real uh enables of this um because we need identity of the data we need the identity of the organizations and the participants involved so that decentralized identity and adoption of that is going to be uh one of one of the key challenges to really get that uh and embraced because without that it's going to make uh the whole digital twin really really hard because you you can't prove that it was the action was taken by a particular party and it's not very viable so i think the the biggest challenge is that one of the others is interoperability obviously the digital twin through that we'd want to start to define the chronicle models that could be used for that and the interactions and the activities that can be done against them but when we talk about some of the technology that that underpins it so if we are representing these on blockchains and and a decentralized storage for more heavyweight data that's needed then we've got to start to think around how we do that blockchain to blockchain now there is connectors between them you can take an SDK from this and SDK from that and you can connect them but one of one of the important things is is being able to transact the business process where you're not necessarily locking in between between the two chains i think there's some some patterns to kind of explore there beyond just data exchange between blockchain particularly where you're using a token a non-ship of that of that token to be able to drive who should be taking the action with inside the the process so some really interesting things to to kind of explore there and i'm sure there'll be products that help us and and our quant have been doing some stuff connecting connecting blockchains together i think we need a little bit more than just just connecting to be able to support that business process thank you randard is there any other question from the audience in the attendance it's a good occasion you know from having having a perspective so far away so i'll ask a question right yeah yeah so so how do people you you said the future self which is fantastic i love that but dr gilbert sir whatever you call it so how do people get involved what's what's the call to action if they want to get yeah i think it's a collective that we're going to have to do around this it's not going to be be able to know one individual or organization because to really for success of this it is going to be interacting with a number of different parties as so so i think yeah good question how do we actually take this forward how do we form something that could then start to establish what really good use cases for the digital twin start to establish some of them canonical models around that so yeah and i'd like to explore and you know participate in how we could create a group around this okay great and any particular low-hanging fruit particular vertical industry area region that you think there would be oh i'm gonna say new zealot yeah um but i think uh it's it's going to rely on um the the model law so it's we need that in place to be able to do uh to transfer the records digitally uh without that um we're not going to be able to do it so i think it's going to be looking to the countries that are right by that obviously singapore so maybe new zeal and singapore will be a good one okay cool there's a good remark from bob lowland and i do thank you for doing this uh it's saying you know quick clearance might be the golden outcome data moves faster and then ships tax and the emirage must be beneficial uh dear bob i can subscribe to each and every words we know you know the traditional recognition this is a big deal you know in day-to-day activities in exports you know so you pointed out you know where one of the occasions are so i'll leave them to you uh brendon maybe to to give some hints into this and how to manifest sorry i missed the last part of that sorry it's uh quick clearance must be the golden outcome data moves faster and then ships tax and then the emirage must be beneficiaries yeah yeah the pre-clearance yeah so that's um uh one of kind of our real real targets is is getting that pre-clearance and and uh if you're on a platform and our ecosystem that allows for pre-clearance because you can share their data faster then obviously you've got the competitive advantage because your goods are cleared the fresher are in the country um yeah yeah we know how this thing is impact you know emirage huge cost for you know grabbing goods lining dots you know for weeks and weeks expensive real estate of sitting in containers the cost of you think it's sustainable business these things you know impact heavily on the whole picture to point out how these solutions can impact these aspects as well in a positive way okay so yeah bob your pre-clearance must be a golden outcome we absolutely bit of moves faster than ships tax money will be benefit tax yeah yeah absolutely and when we talk on that just on that when we talk about the digital twin as well the trade twin in uh and that really expensive kind of real estate with inside the ports but if they've got if they've got that forward visibility of where the object which is that that container one of that representing the the trade twin of the container where that is and what's the likelihood of that actually being or arriving at a certain time or even the port being able to provide feedback information to that to that digital twin to say no i don't need you yet there's there's no space for you the the there's the delays the ships layer the content ships layer so it plays both ways perfect is running out of question today feel free to to ask directly to Brandon no other question no questions perfect if people want to reach out my details are on the deck please reach out i'm really interested to hear what i'm going to be thank you perfect thank you so much Brandon for doing these presentations it's very insightful very interesting and i think we can call you know making yeah zover and hot seed during the next event yeah thank you so much for joining us today thank you thank you Andrea thank you Brandon thank you thank you bye bye see you bye thank you and bye and definitely improved our future self this time all good one day