 Aloha! Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii's Movers, Shakers, and Reformers Biofuels in Hawaii series. I'm your host, Carl Kempany. Join us each week as we explore biofuels in Hawaii and our interviews with some of the various local stakeholders to learn about policy, feedstock, and conversion processes. Today, our guest is Mr. Will Cush, project manager for Ter-Viva here in Hawaii. Ter-Viva is a local biomass feedstock producer. They grow pangamia trees and harvest the seed for its oil. Will earned his bachelor's of science degree in chemistry with a minor in natural resources of science and management and completed his or has been working on towards completion his doctoral research at the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, in the department of bioproducts and biosystems engineering. Will's doctoral research has been focused on assessing the productivity and suitability of novel cellulosic biomass feedstock production for the upper Midwest region of the United States. Will is currently managing the establishment of the first commercial pangamia orchard here in Hawaii, while also searching for and evaluating additional growth opportunities for Ter-Viva. So welcome to the show, Will. Excellent. Thank you so much for having me, Carl. Excellent. I appreciate it. I appreciate you coming. This is going to be a vital aspect of this whole series, so I truly appreciate the opportunity to talk. So let's start with, tell me about yourself a little bit. Sure. So we just learned a little bit, revise or reshape what I just said as far as what got you here and what you're looking at within this industry. Sure, sure. Absolutely. So originally from Madison, Wisconsin and went over to the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis and earned my degree and my undergraduate and started working towards my graduate, my PhD degree. And I chose the field of biofuels because I wanted to affect the greatest positive change in society as I could achieve. And I saw that just given my interest in science and just my affinity for chemistry and general nerdiness, I thought what better way to do that than to find a way to make biofuels. And so... Chemistry is one of those things. You don't even realize how important chemistry is when you're taking it in high school until you start to see what it really can produce and how it can produce things. So thank you for doing that, for continuing that pursuit. So okay, so you want to make the largest impact you possibly could and biofuels seem to be that pathway for you based on your... That's what... that was my perspective, Carlos. If I could somehow help in terms of either providing greater access to biofuels for society or helping to find a new conversion pathway or in any way shape or form help accelerate the adoption of biofuels by our country. I thought that that would be a very productive way to help out. I agree. Going back to the 70s with ethanol, it's been a thing that's been talked about for a long time. Indeed. And the oil price shocks seems to be the thing that makes the conversation happen more often than not. For good and for bad. So okay. So tell us, so you were focusing on cellulosics. Tell us, what's a cellulosic? Yeah, so sure, the easiest way to think about cellulosic biomass or biomass in general is just you can think about it by looking out the window and seeing all the trees outside and the grass. That's... any plant that's growing represents cellulosic biomass. Any plant that's growing. Okay. And so biomass refers to any... can refer to any plant. Cellulosic biomass refers primarily to grasses and trees. Okay. Because the structural components of those plants are called cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin. Right. Happy to get into the nerdy... Lignocellulosic, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So that's what you spent a lot of time working on and trying to figure out the best conversion technologies, the best pathway for conversion technologies in order to achieve fuels. Yeah, so I was looking at... when I was in grad school, I was looking at the productivity of a certain subset of plants of trees. How many tons per acre of biomass would they yield if we began to cultivate them in a cellulosic biomass production system? Yeah. And then we also looked at the efficiency with which we can convert that woody biomass, the trees, trees themselves into fuel. And so we looked at making them into ethanol, turning the trees themselves into ethanol. And we did that as just kind of a generic biofuels pathway. There's alternate pathways like pyrolysis or gasification. But we chose ethanol because there's a... And that's a different process. That's more of a fermentation process? Exactly. Exactly. So converting into an ethanol is a fermentation process as opposed to using gasification or pyrolysis where you're converting that more into what? So if you gasify or if you use pyrolysis, what you're doing is you're breaking up. You can think of cellulose, the structural component in wood in this table. As a long chain of poly... A long polymeric chain of monomers. And gasification... That's a lot of technical worth. Stop me if I get too nervous. No, no, no. Go, go. We need it. So in fermentation, what you do is you use bacteria and enzymes to chop that long polymer chain into monomers, the single building block sugars. Polymini, mono, meaning one. Exactly. And you use the bacteria and use enzymes to chop up the chain. And then you feed those monomers, those individual sugar molecules to bacteria. And the bacteria eat the sugar. And on the other end of the side, on the other end of the reaction, you get ethanol. Got it. The same way you make beer. The same way you make beer. Exactly, exactly. As opposed to the gasification or pyrolysis, which then will do what? Which gives you then... You get either monomeric or elemental, much smaller molecules that you can then rearrange using a catalyst or using a different strain of bacteria. You can feed that mixture that which is brew of different stuff that you get when you chop it all up indiscriminately in a gasification system. And you can rearrange those molecules into a fuel molecule. And product can be the same. You can make ethanol from gasification or you can make it from fermentation. Either way, after studying it for five years, I figured out that it's fairly technically challenging. See, that was going to be my next question. You were focusing and your doctorate research has been on cellulosic conversion. And you're currently working with Terviva, which is oil-based instead of cellulosic. So you're about to go into it, but now, so tell us. Why the switch and what happened? Sure, sure. So it's a good question. And the long and the short of it, Carl, is that converting biomass, converting wood and grass into biofuel is a technology that I believe will be commercially rolled out on a large scale. I hope sooner than later. We're getting there as the scientific community studies and as researchers are finding new and better ways to adapt this. They're getting there, but it's not quite there yet. The technology is not ready for commercial scale-up, commercial scale-up. Commercial scale. So we have demonstration scale. We have pilot scale-up for some. We don't have a scale-up opportunity yet. We know that we can do it, technically speaking. We can make biofuels from cellulosic biomass using these- And of the various ASTM classifications and specifications. We can make the jet fuels and the biofuels and the diesels from all of these processes. Yes. The key hold-up is that we cannot do it in a way such that it is economically interesting for a large organization. So the scale-up economy kind of economic aspect to it. Yeah, exactly. So we need more money. We need more money to put some research into the technology to get that technology to the next level so we can tweak the efficiencies of it and then be able to then really produce what's called operational volumes. Exactly. There you go. Excellent, excellent. Okay, so that's why you shifted from cellulosic to seed oil. And so I shifted to seed oils to plant oils because I saw that in plant oil to biofuel conversion systems, I saw an industry that was already in place and already producing biofuel at scale. And so I saw this industry as a means where I could achieve that impact that I mentioned earlier, where I could really try to effect change by either producing more biofuel so that we could have the opportunity as a society to choose biofuel over petroleum-derived conventional fuel, fossil fuel that we import from abroad. And so instead of sending dollars out of the country to... To the tune of $5.7 billion in 2015 for the state of Hawaii alone. Exactly. So instead of sending that money off island, we can cycle it back through the local economy right here by growing oil that we can use to make renewable fuel on island. Which will also create jobs. Which will also create jobs, clean up the environment, and help the land. Yeah. And as well as if done along with and alongside food production, we can actually grow our entire ag industry. So we have more local food production, we have biofuel production, biofuel feedstock production, and that helps all of our local farmers. Absolutely. So it gives baseline revenues that aren't currently there. Absolutely. So that's huge, huge important there. So okay, so when did you first come to Hawaii? So I moved out from Minneapolis to Oakland in 2012 and started traveling out to Hawaii in 2013. Taraviva had put in a small pilot planting in Kunia on Oahu in 2012. And so I started coming out in 2013 just to check up on the pilot planting, see how it was doing, see how the trees were growing, and also... This was part of your research? This was separate. So this is after I left the PhD program to join Taraviva full time. Okay. Okay, so you started off with Taraviva somewhere on the continental U.S. Yes, in Oakland, California. In Oakland, California, and then eventually... Yeah, exactly. More permanently here. Exactly. Yes. Okay, so when was that roughly that you actually got here more permanently then? In 2014. Okay. And so in 2013 I was checking up on the trees, making sure they're all happy and growing, and fortunately they were. And at the same time as I was doing that and just seeing how they were growing, I was also helping my colleagues as we were putting together the pieces to set up the conditions so that we could put in a larger actual commercial scale orchard right here on Oahu. So you needed enough land, you needed enough opportunities, you needed to... One important piece is you needed to know that the trees, because we just glossed over that slightly, you needed to know that the trees would grow here, would grow here in a healthy, productive manner. Exactly. And that's what the first year, a couple years? How many years? So for the first two years, the trees that we put in that pilot planting were growing and they were growing despite the fact that we never fertilized them. We barely gave them any water. Welcome to Paradise. That's just how that goes. Exactly. It was incredible. So based on how well the trees loved growing in Paradise, based on that we were able to pull together landowner and a local farmer to help us grow the trees, a local nursery to help us produce more trees, and we were able to assemble all these pieces and finally with support from the energy accelerator, we were able to start work on... Yes, our good friend, Shana Trevenna as well. Yes. And all the good folks and Don Lipperton. And Don Lipperton. And yeah, all those... Yeah, I can't say enough good things about the accelerator. Excellent. Excellent. Good people. But we were finally able to start Breaking Ground in 2014 on our first commercial scale orchard on the North Shore of Oahu. And so I've been out here since 2014. So two years? Two years now. Two years. And you love it, right? Absolutely love it. Of course. Absolutely love it. Unfortunately we have to take a quick break already. So that first 14 minutes goes really quickly. Thank you for joining us again. This is the Think Tech Hawaii Movers, Shakers and Reformers, the Hawaii Biofuels, or Biofuels in Hawaii series. Our guest is Mr. Will Cush from Ter Vivo. So please come back and join us as we continue our conversation. So thank you. See you in a minute. Hi, I'm Ethan Allen, host of Likeable Science here on ThinkTechHawaii.com. I hope you'll join me every Friday at 2 p.m. to discover what's likeable about science. Looking to energize your Friday afternoon? Tune in to Stand the Energy Man at 12 noon. Aloha Friday here on ThinkTechHawaii. Hi, I'm Jay Fidel. That's Ted Ralston. Ted is the host of Where the Road Leads. It shows every Friday from 4 to 5 p.m. It's about technology. It's about how people collaborate and solve problems with modern technology. It's where the road leads. We all know that. We should all be listening. Join us there. 4 to 5 p.m. every Friday. Now, what about that you agree with? All of it. I knew we'd say that. Aloha. Say Aloha. Aloha. Good. Okay. Logo. Here's a logo. Spectacular. Aloha, welcome back to ThinkTechHawaii's Movershakers and Reformers. Biofuels in Hawaii is here. I'm your host, Carl Compagnon. Today, we're talking with Mr. Will Cooch, project manager of Terviva here in Hawaii. Okay, so now tell me more about Terviva. What is it and how do you operate? Absolutely, I'd be happy to. So, Terviva recognized that there was a discrepancy. Whereas we have increasing demand for agricultural products, food, fiber, biofuel, because we have a growing global population. At the same time that the demand is increasing, the supply is actually contracting because the amount of farmland in production is declining over time. And so, in the two areas that we work, I'll pick on Florida and Hawaii as case examples. In Florida, an introduced disease has wiped out 75%. Introduced disease? Yes, sir. So, it's called... The two things I have to stop you on. I'm sorry. Please, yeah. First of all, well, there's introduced disease, but then, okay, you said that the amount of agricultural land is decreasing. Correct. Why? Is there a simple one sentence answer for that? The short, concise way is that there's desertification, there's disease, there's drought, there's failing economics. All these factors lead to a contraction in the amount of agricultural land that's in productivity. Okay. So, as an example, in Florida, a disease was introduced from China called citrus greening, and there is no cure for this disease. And the disease has already wiped out 75% of the state's citrus industry. Wow. And the remaining 25% is... Much for frozen concentrated oranges. Yeah. So, it was accidentally introduced. Correct, correct. But yeah, someone went to China, came back and happened to have it with them. How does that happen? Was it because they brought something with them? Was it like a commercial? Someone brought a commercial quantity of something over that had it on it, and then they planted it or something? Or was it airborne? I mean, I don't know how much... Yeah, so nobody knows exactly how the disease arrived. It arrived the same way that invasive species arrive. Yeah. Anywhere you can look, there's... Yeah, as long as there's a seed in the growth. And the disease is vectored. It's transmitted by an insect called a psyllid. A psyllid. And it's a flying insect that feeds on trees and the psyllid carries a bacteria that infects the trees. And that bacteria is the cause of citrus greening. Wow, wow, wow. Okay. Alrighty, I went way off topic here. Sure, sure, yeah. I just wanted to learn more, because you were telling me that, I'm sorry I can't delete those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's information there, I didn't know. Okay, so back to Taraviva. How long has Taraviva been in existence total? And then I think you already told us in Hawaii since about 2013-ish. Yeah. So, Taraviva has been around since 2010. Okay. And we started because we saw that disconnect between supply and demand. Right. Or rather, other than demand supply. And we saw an opportunity to utilize a new crop to address that, because our existing crops weren't quite meeting the needs that we had as a society. And so we decided after looking at 30-plus different potential new crops, we found Pungamia as an alternative candidate that we could use to drop into existing agricultural areas where productivity or production has declined because of greening in Florida or because of failing economics in Hawaii that has led to the decline in the sugarcane and pineapple industry. Absolutely. We saw that Pungamia was a highly productive, very robust and hardy. So it's a high-yield plant. Exactly. Or tree, really. Exactly. Okay. So tell us more about Pungamia. They're trees, first of all, and they produce seeds. And these seeds produce more trees, but they also produce oil. Yes, sir. Tell me about that part, please. Yeah. So, Pungamia trees, in addition to being very hardy and relatively easy to grow and fast-growing, they produce a crop of oil seeds that are relatively similar to soybeans except that they produce 10 times the amount of oil on a per acre basis that soy does. Wow. And in addition to oil, after you press oil out of the oil seed that you harvest from the tree, there's also a seed cake that's left over and that seed cake is high in protein. And so we can use that seed cake to produce a cattle feed that we can... Ah. So one of my other questions I've got coming up as well, so excellent. Yes. Okay, so good, good, good. Okay, so it produces an oil and you squeeze the oil out. You have a process that squeezes the oil out of the seed. It's the exact same off-the-shelf equipment. Don't need any new equipment. It's all the existing type of gear that you use to extract sunflower oil, peanut oil, any type of oil off-the-shelf which means it's relatively inexpensive. Correct. Okay, so low capital cost on that side of it. Good, good, good. We need that. Okay. All right, so we know what that is. How many acres do you have right now? So currently we have 50 acres in the ground. And it's all North Shore? All North Shore. Okay. And we are going to... The contiguous area that we're planting in was Sugar Cane Land 25 years ago and ever since then it's been idle. It's been fallow just growing albizia and Christmas berry and guinea grass. As much as we like those, what are they doing for us? So we've been clearing out the albizia, clearing out the guinea and planting an orchard of our trees. And the whole area that we're planting on that's been abandoned and is idle, not doing anything, is in the neighborhood of 750 acres. Wow. And so while we have 50 planted so far... So you have 50 acres but you can grow, you have access to 750 total. Yeah. Amazing. So what's your current yield? What are you currently producing out of those 50 acres? Yeah, so those acres, we only planted them last year. And so they're not yielding anything yet. Okay. It takes roughly three to four years until you get a commercially harvestable amount of oil seeds from the tree. Okay. So they'll start to produce some seeds next year. But not enough to make it worthwhile to go in and... And do you have contracts currently, I mean, to whom do you sell both of these products? You've got oil? Yeah. You've got oil which can be converted into, do you also do the conversion into the fuel and you just create the oil and you sell the oil itself? The latter, yeah. So we envision ourselves right now to be a feedstock company and so we're producing a raw vegetable oil that we can then supply to folks locally who have already established the systems and the facilities and infrastructure that's utilized and up and running that converts... And that company happens to be Pacific Biodiesel. Yes. And they're amazing. Bob, Kelly, Kelly, Kelly. They're great. And they're engineers. Right there. Their facility on the Big Island is beautiful. They have an excellent facility using some of the best technology anywhere in the country and so we can send our oil to the Big Island and make renewable fuel right away. And then you have your seed cake that is a fertilizer you were saying. So you have a secondary ancillary product that you can sell so you have multiple markets to help stabilize it and diversify it. Exactly. So we hedge our bets a little bit so if oil, petroleum oil drops to 10 bucks a barrel or something ridiculous, we still have another product from our orchard, which is the seed cake. And so that buffers our business a little bit. It gives us a little bit of room and we can utilize the seed cake as a fertilizer. It is actually commercially available as a fertilizer. You can go out and buy it. Although I think more interesting out here will be to make a cattle feed out of it so that we can support our local cattle ranchers. I like that. I like that because the idea of fertilizer starts to bring into question of other environmental impacts that you may have. Yeah. And so the way that I envision it, Carl, is that I think that we'll be making renewable fuel from our oil, and I think that we'll be making cattle feed from our seed cake so that we can support our cattle ranchers and help them make truly local Hawaiian beef rather than... Excellent. I love that. I love all of that. We only have a few minutes left, so let's jump to this. Real quickly, what would you say is the role of oils, seed oils, algal oils, oils in the biofuels industry? What is the role of it? Yeah. Is it a short-term role? Is it a long-term? Tell me about that. Yeah, so it's an excellent question, Carl. And I, personally speaking, I envision plant oils as being a... in the transportation sector, a baseload type energy, if you can think of it, and also in the electrical generation sector. So we can burn biodiesel in the HECO utilities assets and make baseload renewable power, 100% renewable electricity to complement the intermittent solar and wind power that is fed into the grid. Alternately, we can use the biodiesel that we make as a renewable, locally produced, environmentally friendly transportation fuel for those heavy diesel... So that's what we have here, this picture here, is talking about jet fuel and diesel. Yeah, so we have made and established the fact that we can make biodiesel out of our Pungami oil. Works great. The technology is existing. We've also looked at whether or not we can make other additional fuel products out of the Pungami oil as well. And we've actually confirmed that we can make jet fuel from Pungami oil that passes jet A specifications. See, that's spectacular. So, okay. We only have, again, about a minute left here. We also know that... So that's, again, is that more short-term? Is that mid-term? Is it long-term? Is it always going to be there, or will cellulosics at some point overcome that because it's a larger yield factor? Where is that? Excellent question. And when I look into the future, 10 years, 20 years down the line, I absolutely see both. I don't think it's either or at all. I think that it's definitely going to be complementary systems where you're going to have industries and facilities set up to handle both feedstocks because, frankly, we need both. We produce and consume a tremendous amount of energy and fuel in this country. And I dare say that we will continue to do so. We're going to have both. We're going to have both. Okay. The last, like, 10 seconds, you just received an award. Do you see this picture here? Dr. Viva just received an award with the governor in 10 seconds. Tell us about that. It was an absolutely delightful surprise, and I feel tremendously honored to be recognized by the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. And so I'm just very grateful to have been included in such a group of honored guests at that forum. Thank you so much for joining me today. Sorry, we don't have more time, but you're welcome to come back. We can dig into any of these that you want to, and I'd be happy to. So, okay, thank you so much for joining us. This is Think Tech Hawaii's Movers, Shakers, and Reformers, the Biofuels series, Biofuels in Hawaii series. Thank you for joining us. Thank you to the crew. Thank you to the staff. Thank you to everyone involved here. Thank you to our guest, Mr. Will Cush and to Teri Viva for everything they're doing. See you next week. Take care.