 I like your diner. Cool, I'm glad you got the reference. I feel like it's not totally obvious. Are you there or are you just lurking? Going with lurking? Have you started doing Halloween stuff yet? Um, no, well so I started planning like a really last minute trip to Yellowstone because I've been wanting to go this whole summer and just like haven't planned anything and now it's like oh like if I want to go I have to go soon because everything's going to be closed for the season um so I think we're planning something towards like the second half of October and I won't get back until like the day of Halloween so. Yeah but Halloween starts like now. Now. That's true. I don't know if you remember Jeremy talking about Halloween but like as soon as he could buy a pumpkin he was like putting up decorations. Yeah, I admire. It's like I can decorate but no one's going to come over but yeah I guess it's it should be for myself. I just, I don't know, I just like putting up the pumpkins outside. Yeah. Well the thing is. I live on like the backside of the apartment. It's I mean it's like a house but it was like split up into three units and so I live in the back and like like in order to like get to our door you actually like go through kind of like a passageway underneath. Oh so no one sees your pumpkins. Yeah I have like no door to the outside. I was kind of productive today. I was kind of excited about that and let me share. I'll show off my productive stuff and maybe Paris will talk. I shall trick her. I know how to trick you. I started sharing productive things and you would talk. I started working on the issue labeling. I know that's not what people want evidently but that's the content I'm here for so. That's still good content. Too bad. So it's all about good first issue and stuff and everything so I should have a PR this week for that. I'm excited. But was someone at the TOC meeting? Did they know more? I was. Can you tell me about it? There was lots of talk again about the adding of a steering committee requirement to the graduation process. Lots of folks who said that was too prescriptive. The end goal was kind of a well the only thing that should be prescriptive is the project giving instructions on how to get to maintain or how to get to certain things and then maybe that could help with the need that folks feel like prescribing things. And then we also talked about community strategy overall and how projects should think about that. Can you talk about that a little bit more? What do you mean by community strategy? People were bringing up how these documents in general and these thought processes about governance and who's going to take care of your people and just kind of like everything that I had put in that one issue about creating a contributor strategy requirement kind of thing. Whether that's like inside of their governance document or whatever it's just a roadmap of how they're going to take care of their contributors pretty much like is it going to be through a SIG? Is it going to be through a working group? Is it going to be through full-time or part-time community managers that are paid by someone? Things like that. And then the contributor ladder was just one thing that they felt like could be a good sign and I think was Justin brought it up with the other piece where how can we give guidance about when maintainers leave an organization if they still take their maintainership back or not back but if they still retain their maintainership then that's a sign of a good project health because that means that it's not according to their job or tied to their job or something along those lines. So that goes in kind of with like the you know the contributor ladder and having those things spelled out instead of it just being this you know it looks like it's tied to corporate employment kind of thing you know so that was that was pretty much it for our side anyway. Okay did you get a feeling that I mean I know we're behind do you get a feeling that we need to have certain documents by a specific amount of time or I would say yeah I would say we should get a shell for the the contributor ladder and it doesn't need to be um I don't think it needs to be filled in I think it's like just like the shell to like the drafts folder yeah um okay and encourage also that would also encourage more people to come help us as well because right now we've just been kind of like spinning out but like it's coming it's coming you know I mean me too because like I'm on one of those lines as well with the the community strategy piece um but yeah no I we just keep kind of saying it's coming it's coming so all right who's on the ladder? Getting some I think it was Jennifer and Karen at one point uh was probably me at one point as well so that's why I'm like there's I'm not pointing any fingers whatsoever. I'm just asking because I want to see if anyone's had a chance to start something or if we are oh what is delightful Casper? Yeah that's my my kitty tabs. Oh my god that's so cute. Yeah I have a little like what where do I get this? Oh it's a tabby cat. What that is so cute yeah I've never seen anything like that wait sorry for real learning. All right you have a tabbycats.club put this in our official meaning notes because we talked about it. I know it tabbycats.club it's in all browsers. That's awesome yeah I'll actually reference that later. Yeah um so our contributor ladder template I think we had some scope of what we wanted in and out we had some examples of a whole bunch of examples it's wonderful but we don't have a template yet um so maybe we could look at the examples and then just kind of pick out that and use that for the show. Yeah yeah 100%. That's a thing I feel like a good a good uh a good template for us at this level would just be some like maybe some like pros of what we've seen in the examples and that's it you know uh and then later on we can do kind of our own custom custom guidance if you will. I mean Karen do you do you have time to maybe help make a I think so I it should be free for like the next few weeks I think yeah okay and back that'd be great um I if you want to send me things to help think about um that'd be awesome. If you want me in the Slack um we could like you could just like throw out a link and we we could like talk about it like we could even like you know say what we like about it and what we don't maybe not like maybe less of what we don't but um I don't know if you want to collaborate that way that's that's like super easy for me because like in the middle of boring meetings I can be like I can I can come into Slack and then talk to y'all. Yeah um and otherwise Karen feel free to open up PR as soon as you want to you don't have to work in the Google Docs um yeah because we found that a couple of us have found that we've been able to move faster by just saying we're gonna open up PR and iterate there um agreed yeah and it's going to go in a draft folder so it's okay to merge and then have somebody else that they want to make significant edits open another PR and make more edits on top of your pull request too. You don't have to be the person who synthesizes everyone's feedback and somehow makes a bunch of text because that's asking a lot sometimes I think um I think that helps us move forward more quickly if we don't ask that of somebody and you said there's one other doc the TOC wanted from us perhaps? There were there were three docs that were talked about one was the contributor ladder um the other two were um some kind of a plan for sustainability or longevity um is that the community strategy? Yeah that's it's kind of no no not at all actually okay um the um so um because this basically came around addressing you know why does the multi-organization requirement exist in the first place okay and basically it came down to a few things one was openness to contributions um uh the um and the second one was you know hey if all the contributors to a project work for the same company and that company ceases to exist or they leave the CNCF then you basically have a zombie project um now I'm not clear on what would go into such a document that wouldn't anyway actually ameliorate that you follow me? Yeah that's why I wrap that's why I wanted to wrap it in with community management because I felt like by itself it didn't ride but if you talk about like if you talk about if you need a SIG a working group or a full-time part-time or a steering committee or whatever that's focused on community growth sustainability topics etc and you're kind of covered in those areas anyway because you already have people thinking about that stuff right instead of like doing a project blowing up and then realizing oh shit we forgot about that part um where I said that's why I'm like I think that that guidance and like having maintainers think about that early on like where they want to grow their project how they want to grow it like that's all that's all part of like their principles their vision and their mission and then once they have that that's how they can kind of think like okay well we're probably going to have a lot of people contributing here so we should probably think about people that are you know going to take take care of this so like you know what strategy should we employ um that's kind of where I was like hoping to like wrap that in and then um and then obviously with like the and then we can tie like contributor contributor ladder stuff in with that I don't know if I'm off base let me know I just I just couldn't think of like what you're saying I couldn't think of like a doc or anything that like a project could do that would address that without just like a check box if that makes sense yeah the um um yeah we'll see it was talked about like somehow you know they could write a document and that would take care of it um the um the other thing was um a process for community feedback on the project roadmap um the um Cheryl already has a process for that with the end user meetings because I go to those now and they are so awesome yeah that yeah people talked about that but when we say community feedback it's in not only end users you know that's a thing I think that's where we're also very ambiguous though like when we talk about feedback that's all we say is like because like I hear it all the time like people come to me like oh apple give me feedback and I'm just like we'll kind of feedback and that's like the ambiguous part it's like where do you want the feedback how do you want the feedback I think that's where like the education piece needs to come in with the end users and also the maintainers with giving explicit instructions on how they want to interact with people that's great for the I've never seen Cheryl's stuff except at a really high level at the I like kubecon does it get fed back at the project level with detailed information back to the like helm or envoy that I'm still figuring out yeah because like I've only been I've only sat in on one so far so the one that I sat in I was just so blown away like how many companies were represented there and the types of people there and um that they were being so open about like what they use and adopt and like it was just great and like um that's always just like okay so we've got this great thing right here and then we've got this great thing over here you know what I mean so that's why I was just like where's the like my brain cells are just like where do we connect right yeah so I think that's that that's that area of growth that I think needs to happen and like in our original proposal for this SIG we included some of that but then realized like we also just bit off like the whole entire world in the charter the anyway this this morning we were thinking you know that um Gov working group would do the feedback thing and um and this working group would do contributor ladder and we would figure out the longevity thing when we actually have some idea from the TOC what it is really when they say when they say longevity I really think they are just thinking of a forward progressive like documentation on how things work um I think that's kind of what they're like what they're lacking and like every project is different and I don't know it's where I'm like how can we help with that um do we have examples of things that have already happened that have prompted this concern yes can you name them are they like secret um I mean it's not definitely not secret I mean there's g rpc there's uh gnats there's uh several others who um have been obviously in the CNCF for a long time and want to graduate and since there's an ever-changing TOC they always they not always but they you know they try to change processes for the better but inside of that better process you also have projects that here like oh now I have to go in this one direction now I have to go in this other direction and so it's kind of like well how can we prescribe them to do it the way that the TOC wants it in an ever-changing environment when um when it's kind of okay to also improve and change your processes but at the same time how can you like steer a project that that kind of like reactively um when you're talking about some of this stuff so are we still talking about the longevity plan yeah yeah yeah and like so they're saying like so from from from a gnats perspective from like from Justin's example with the longevity and like maintainers leaving and like what happens if they all leave the one company or what happens if the company like folds like that's the that's the like how do we be like how does that I don't know how do they account for that ever-changing thing which gives mixed messages to projects which ultimately like that's why we've got like you know one project that um one project that's you know uh graduate or incubating that has like all one ISV and then somebody in the sandbox that has all one ISV and the current TOC says that they don't like that but you know there's one incubation that already does it like that so it's just kind of like the conflicting the conflicting things that we see with like certain projects and their maturity not so that's that's where a lot of this stems from in some in some element right and like so for instance like with gnats and TRPC for instance like they didn't necessarily have like a contributor ladder or any way that like tells their contributors how to like be a maintainer so like a lot of the TOC would say well it seems like for instance on the grpc side that like you know that google controls it so um by at least having the documentation because people say like oh why didn't know you could be a maintainer to grpc I thought you had to work at google um that's just a one example of a million right yeah so it's just more about like the documentation and the thought processes so that I guess the TOC has just more guidance and guidelines and can make a decision instead of being like kind of opinionated you know because like as a person let me speak as a person some of the longevity stuff feels like saying how do I say this like it all comes down to people who are seriously overworked and I'm leaving a company and I have to make a decision not me personally I'm not leaving like you're leaving a company you may actually end up leaving that project because you're not being paid to work on that project anymore but you know that that product may collapse if you leave because you may be the last maintainer or the last most invested leader on the project right and like it kills me that it always comes down to individuals at the end of the day even when you're in the CNCF you know what I mean even when this isn't necessary they're they're saying like companies who all use it and like the CNCF is also swimming in money and yet really like all these longevity plans let's be honest comes down to whether or not people are willing to individuals are willing to just make it their priority and do these things well I think they're just concerned that like in like in a like in the case where you want to leave for instance like you want to leave you know the like the apple stand down the street and um they just want to make sure that when you do you have the right to take your maintainership with you uh instead of the like you know marshals down the street saying oh no so now you don't work at marshals anymore you can't be a maintainer and we're going to PR you out of the file yikes and that happened yeah there's also one of I didn't realize that was even an option in the CNCF so that's a little scary option it's like you can you can PR anybody out of a file right now like if reporter like there's there's no like unless you have guidelines for your project for a porter you can do what you want to do right like yes we've already through this because Jeremy left and we had to make that right even though it was a microsoft project and it's already wait we're recorded yeah we're done with this yeah no but the thing is and you have to be able to remove people who have actually left the project yeah um so and and I'll say for that matter there are projects that I won't name on a recording that have set up a situation where they don't allow anybody who doesn't work for them to become a maintainer and therefore they set up a situation where they're already risky if you follow me yeah okay that makes more sense I thought it was more of a like what happens when everyone legitimately moves on and then someone stock holding it's it's not all honestly I think it's about all those situations exactly it's kind of like how do you protect and how do you protect the individual and how do you protect the project it's like yeah I think it's all of those examples like and that's what they mean like that's why they're kind of it's kind of ambiguous right now but I think that's they just mean all of that like because there are just too many examples that are all like situationally different but also the same way that's going to be the hard one because it's not an area where we have a whole lot of prior art at least that I know of it's just so much more it's just work that's all it's just a lot of thought yeah what's it for some things like contributor ladders we have a fair amount of prior art yeah um ways for the broader community to give feedback we have a lot of examples for that please feel free to add more I mean I'll be capturing everything that was said there I was just trying to lay out some of the more of the cases we're talking about here because when I heard longevity none of these came to mind so it was really helpful for me anyway um I would not I would love it if if one of the results of this was the CNCF requires some kind of contributor ladder for graduated projects the because I would say there are graduated projects where it is certainly possible to to become a contributor to that project but the process is not in any way clear my question is why how do we decide when something should be a requirement for a graduated project and when it should be a requirement maybe a little sooner yeah like we have a contributing guide we require that very early on right we require that sandbox I would expect or hope that a contributing ladder contribution ladder would be something that should be articulated much sooner because you can be in CNCF sandbox incubating for pretty long time it seems there's not a lot of graduated projects um and and to be able to skate by without articulating who can be a maintainer how to get there is it an exclusive club um before you're forced to say something and open it up maybe when it's too late both after key decisions have been made and influence is already like you're past the point of influencing things that are important I'd hate to see that be put at the very end I'm not gonna argue with you okay I was going to say I was going to say agreed it's all right I kind of got on my sofa yeah yeah you know you forgot you forgot the choirs with you today how are we doing do we we've got we've thought a bunch of like deep thoughts do we have enough information that um if we try to go off and and write the ladder shell work on the community strategy I don't think anyone's raised a hand for sustainability longevity but Paris was suggesting maybe that just baked in to every layer of the community strategy do we have enough information that we think we can act on all the stuff we've talked about here I think so um especially for like draft states like now that now that we've like talked through the just submit the damn draft um I feel a little bit better you know I do I feel a little bit better about that so yeah I feel like we should just start submitting the damn drafts and you know it's obviously explaining that in our PR that it's a draft or whatever so yeah I think we have enough for that state for sure now it's just finding the time and making a priority pretty much which I will for sure okay Karen do you you in on this you feel like you got enough information for your at the ladder yeah can you send the links of this um like to the meeting agenda and then also to the contribute or like I know you have the link to the contributor ladder notes in this that I don't have access to do you think Jennifer um can still help with the contributor sorry I don't know reach out to her I can definitely help with it so um as long as people don't mind I will happily put my soapbox on the ladder too I've gotta jump for a virtual doctor appointment anyway um yeah now let's let's get some drafts in team team draft totally well I mean because if we're if we're good now then I'm just going right back to working on the issues and maybe I can finish it up and submit a PR so yeah do it oh my gosh there are all these chats and I missed all of them I like need to get better at zoom now it's just really hot trust me when I tell you like I I think you can't do I'm gonna be late by doctor if I don't pay I said doctor um you can't it's so impossible to lead and try to take notes and also pay attention to the chat like I feel like you just can't do all three at the same time it's kind of like juggling for me anyway I just feel like oh that means I can lead and pay attention to chat and kind of facilitate or I can lead and take notes and that's it yeah okay thank you for like like absorbing me of the same no no it's just it's over the virtual life that we have now it's just like damn it I need to be an activist seriously I'd be down with that just couple too extra I won't get greedy but now that you've looked at the chat could somebody actually share the link to the notes oh I thought Karen did or no she said it's the wrong one oh okay it was in the same contributor strategy uh slack too I just shared it yeah sorry what um somebody should ping Amy about fixing the calendar item I think it's in two if I go to I'm just waiting for a cloud native calendars honestly does this link to our work yeah so here's our notes too so if you're ever lost at the top of the sig contributor strategy meaning minutes it links to the notes right here as well oh okay okay just sorry like there's so many really long go back links so sorry about that I tried to link to it and slack at the beginning to get us the wrong but fail hi y'all I appreciate you hi