 Welcome to Dare to Dream. This is Debbie Daschinger. Thank you so much for joining in today. This conversation today is going to feature a husband and wife. Dr. Elsbeth Moyt and Freddy Zantel Weaver who are gonna talk about sexual enlightenment, how to create lasting fulfillment in life, love and intimacy. This is the Dare to Dream podcast. It's been nominated for two People's Choice podcast awards for a web award and has been voted by Welp Magazine as one of the top 20 best podcasts to listen to. The show is sponsored by Dr. Dane Here and Access Consciousness. They do beautiful energy work out into the world. You can find them at their websites, Dr. DaneHere, H-E-E-R.com as well as accessconsciousness.com. I teach entrepreneurs, speakers, healers and coaches how to write a highly engaging book. I coach people on writing a book privately as well as through our group on going twice a month. I also take author's books to a guaranteed international bestselling status and I do all the work for the author. And finally, I show the same folks the other piece of visibility which is how to be interviewed on radio and podcasts and get massive results. If you would like to get some information and a leg up about how you can start writing your book, becoming a bestseller and being interviewed, go to debbie-singer.com slash gift and there I give away templates and a lot of how-tos so you can start doing this right away. It's debbie-singer.com slash gift, D-E-B-B-I-D-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-R.com slash gift. So today's episode features a conversation on lasting intimacy and fulfillment in relationships. My guests are Dr. Elizabeth Moyt and Freddie Zantel Weaver. They both assisted thousands of couples and singles to create lasting intimacy and fulfillment in their life and relationships. They're featured on Showtime's documentary series, Sexual Healing and the Emmy Award-winning NBC show, Starting Over. They're bestselling authors of Sexual Enlightenment endorsed by world-renowned spiritual pioneer, Dr. Michael Beckwith and the co-founders of Tantra Nova Institute in Chicago. They got nominated as changemaker at the Housewife, sponsored 2016 United State of Women's Summit in Washington, DC. Elizabeth and Freddie are beloveds, husband and wife, as well as business partners residing in Chicago. You can learn more at their website, go to TantraNova.com. And with that, I welcome Elizabeth and Freddie to the Dare to Dream show. It's so great to have you both here. Welcome. Thank you, Debbie. Yeah, Debbie, great to be here. Thank you. Yeah, so let's start off, Elizabeth and Freddie. Tell us about the work you do. Tell us about the people whom you work with. Wow, okay. Do you wanna start? Well, yeah. So we have had our institute here in Chicago for the last 21 years. And Elizabeth and I met on the internet and we can talk about that later. But the work that we do, we've done all over the world with couples and singles and individuals. And we teach practices of how to use sexual energy to get more deeply connected to what we most deeply desire in our life and how to stay connected with yourself and your partner and life in general. So we'll get into unpacking that today. And the work is deeply influenced, of course, by the practice of Tantra, which is an ancient tradition that comes from East India. And Tantra is the yoga of the energetic body. In the West, we are very familiar with, you know, familiar with yoga centers at every corner, street corner. However, the focus there is that it's the yoga of the physical body. So how would it be to learn more about the energies that flow through me at all times? Otherwise, I wouldn't be alive. And so these energies show up in different ways in the physical, sexual, in the emotional and love, and then in the mental and consciousness or spiritual way. And so the Tantric practice allows us to not only tap into these different dimensions and bring more awareness to it, but also to become more integrated. So we can fully live the sexual, spiritual, human being that we are, you know? I'm curious, when you talk about this, and thank you for the explanation, it's very clear. How nervous are people when they come to work with you? What are they thinking when they show up? Or what are their biggest fears? Yeah, actually, usually when they come to us, they often have either read our book or like on a show like this one, they have heard us speak and share. And usually when they come, something was spoken to within themselves, like something they are looking for and then found a coherence in hearing us and learning what this is all about, particularly, you know, when we take it out of the just Tantric sex notion, this is just one dimension. Yeah, we get a lot of couples and singles who want to either be in a relationship or more deeply connect with the relationship they're already in. And when they read and see and hear and learn more about what we're offering, what they're listening for and what they're resonating with is something that is a deep desire with most of us. We all want to connect, feel connected, be heard, be loved and so on. And so that is what we call remembering what we've forgotten. So they just naturally just come to us and the sexual piece is just a unique way of getting to what it is we don't see. And we'll get into that more in terms of, yeah, yeah. I want to give you a chance to respond and don't want to just go too deep too fast. I know you got a great listening audience and I want to really be clear with what we want to share with you today. Oh, that's so kind. I love that line, what it is we don't see. So I want to take you up on that. Can we find out what does that mean? Yes, good. Yeah, so particularly in the realm of intimacy and love in our sexual self, there is so much obscured, so much in the unconscious or subconscious. And our society, and I'm really talking about our world society because that is not unique to one particular culture or people, is that the sexual, we call it the last frontier which hasn't been explored consciously. You know, I mean, it's either suppressed or we are obsessed or I mean, the whole porn craze and sex trade and I mean, it has been there for millennia. It's not a new thing. While we may have become more aware over the last 50 years around our emotional self because with therapy and transformational offerings and approaches, we now can speak about our emotions and allow to feel our emotions and express them. That was not necessarily so in the 1950s. Then through yoga and meditation, we have become more aware and reflective and contemplative and the last of the third, like, you know, mind, emotion, heart and body, the sexual. The last one is really that what hasn't been consciously approached. And so yes, to your question from a little earlier, you know, sometimes it takes a person several years before they show up. They heard about us five years ago and then they come after several years and said, you know, I was very curious then but I just couldn't bring myself to coming here because, you know, they were not ready. And I wanna say, Debbie, to further illustrate this not seeing what we're doing to create what we're getting. So we live often from the past into the now, into the future. So if I was in a bad relationship or I was beaten by my father, I might flinch today uncontrollably if somebody raised their hand at me, I might have a real problem with that or not wanna be in relationship but I was hurt so badly before I can't do it, right? So something I don't see about what's creating what I'm getting. And it's not even that obvious for a lot of folks. It's like, I would like to be in a relationship with a woman but I just can't find the right woman or the right guy. And they're all over the place. It's like you don't see red cars until you have one. So the unveiling of what we don't see happens in a lot of ways. There's a lot of ways to get actionable insights, you know, talking, talk therapy or walking meditations and so on but very few ways I know of actually none that teach how to work with the life force or sexual energy as a way to get more deeply connected and unmask ourselves, our unconscious selves because the sexual energy whether you're doing consciousness work or not when you're in it, you're more open, loving, vulnerable, receptive, chemically we're changed, more oxytocin, endorphins, serotonin, the feel good hormones. So we're in an altered state emotionally and chemically. So what we teach our distinctions on how you can work with that altered state to get more deeply connected with what you have set out as an intention. And that's where the sexual energetic becomes a way to be more connected or to transform what we can't seem to see how to do. Let me give you a very concrete example, you know and I'm gonna use myself because it was this is why I'm teaching Tantra today. This is why I'm here with Freda Centale sharing this art of sexual spiritual connection with you and your audience is that over 20 years ago I was a management consultant at that time and I was really good. It was in the 90s, really good at consulting yet miserable in relationship. I had this pattern of attracting unavailable men and while that was exciting at times most of the time I was alone. And I vividly remember that there came a moment when I fell so deeply into despair because I could see that if I was not gonna change the trajectory that I would leave this planet without ever having had lasting intimacy and love in my life. Now I did have love and intimacy in my life but I was not able to sustain it. And I was at a point where I said, okay, I'm gonna do anything, whatever. And so I deeply delved into meditation and then went on to studying Tantra as a discipline, as a practice, not just reading a book here and there. And what opened up for me out of this practice, this Tantric healing was that I got to see that I distrusted men. Now, if you had known me, Debbie 23, 24 years ago you never would have called me a distrusting bitch. I was very charming, I reeled them in. So it was underneath in the subconscious that there was something. And through the Tantric practice, through the Tantric healing and there's a very distinct ritual for the woman to tap into the most inner, sensual sexual self where we can discover and uncover what may live there on the cellular level in our sexual center, actually. And in that moment when I was touched in a certain place a vivid memory came up. It was when I was 18 years old, first boyfriend, first love we just had spent a couple of very blissful years. And then he asked me to have intercourse. And I said yes, although I was not ready. And it was frequently painful to go to the gynecologist, the bill went to my house, might had opened it, all hell broke loose. He called me a whore, the boyfriend left shortly after. So there I was totally alone, no soul to turn to. And that was the time when I started closing off, you know, like armoring. So my whole torso, my sexual being, my emotional being, although I became very promiscuous, but it was more like to get some validation, not really opening my heart because that was too painful. So anyway, I did some therapy in my 30s around that and that was very helpful. So I thought it was all complete. Yet little did I know that what was living or remembered on the cellular level was not accessible through the conscious mind. So we cannot talk about it, we cannot access it. So anyway, that was cleared and in place of the distrust, deeper trust in myself opened up, more trust in me in general. And the six months later, Fredy's been talking into my life. And so this is a great example of what we're talking about, this unmasking that happens in this sexual, intimate vulnerability and chemically changed and emotionally changed state that we're in in the sexual. Now there's some pieces that people learn in the workshops that allow them to work in this ritual in this way. Because for the guy, if he's giving to his beloved or his woman and he's doing a sexual ritual, it might for him be overwhelming that, hey, we should be doing mutual lovemaking now. I'm excited, you're excited, let's get at it. So what's learned in the ritual is how to hold space, how to be in particular roles, people are given roles, as a giver and as a receiver. And this does not take the place of mutual lovemaking and all the other wonderful things we do with sexual energy. This is a new way of approaching sexual energy and the altered shifts that happen as an approach to getting to what we don't see. Because that stuff is hidden, it's deeply hidden. And so we're shifting things, not intellectually or linguistically, but energetically. And that's- Yeah, no, I deeply, deeply understand this modality of healing so, so important because I think a lot of men and women are traumatized and don't realize it for various reasons. So when you talk about that, I love these rituals you're mentioning, what exactly is the power of slow sex? What are the benefits and what is the power of doing sex or rituals slowly? Yeah, so well, we're talking about two different things actually in our parlance. So the ritual is a specific way of being a giver and being a receiver in roles. In mutual love making and slow sex, you can integrate aspects of what you do in the ritual in terms of gazing, breathing together, mutual enjoyment, transmuting, circulating orgasmic energy or nectar. And all those things you can do in a love making, mutual love making. It's a little different again when you are in the roles of specific ritual practices. We teach it in terms of modality to get to something intentionally that you wanna see that you otherwise can't get close to emotionally. That's a little different because when you're in a mutual love making stance, you're both adults. You're both giving and receiving and you both play roles of that. Yeah, let's talk about this a little bit more the giving and receiving that imagine to be in the receiver role for an hour or for two hours. What could be possible to be experienced there and listened for that is not available in the mutual back and forth, you know? Now, can you give some examples? What is possible there? Well, in that instance, and I'll let you take it right back is, you know, if you are receiving and say my intention is to let go of the anger I have towards my mother for beating me all the time, right? And it's shown up in my relationships. This is just a hypothetical. And so now I'm being given to by my beloved and I'm in this intimate state of sexual intimacy where perhaps I'm aroused or I'm not and I've altered with the endorphins and serats of the feel good hormones. I mean, mostly more available. And I have this intention to let go of this anger towards my mother, for instance. I might then get in touch with a deep sadness in this intimate vulnerability. This is not a place that I would go to if I was mutually love making with someone. And that door open because of this intimate vulnerability in terms of this altered state as an example. So then I can get in touch with that, let it go, recognize it and be a little further down the road of getting unloosed, if you will, from that emotional attachment, unconscious emotional attachment. And the rituals allowing ourselves to drop into this receivership which of course requires a lot of trust. And that is such a huge thing for all of us because letting go, surrendering and we never surrender to another, we actually surrender to ourselves and the other gets to share in that with us because the fear often with surrendering is like, oh, then I give myself up. No, we don't give ourselves up. Surrendering is letting go, letting go into myself, into my bliss and to share this with another can be most blissful, you know? Is it possible to surrender? I mean, I know when I orgasm 100%, I couldn't tell you what I'm doing or being in that moment. I'm just so in an experience, right? And so I know that level and I know what it's like when my partner, I've seen him in complete surrender. That's sort of a new thing in our relationship which is really beautiful gift. Is there a way outside of orgasm to be in that full surrender? Yeah, you can, you know, orgasm is not just a moment like being in the orgasmic wave or the orgasmic dance which like, you know, then it becomes very effortless. And this is not only available for the woman because the woman has, you know, is circular in terms of sexual energy. Energy flows like this and all over the place and like masculine energy is linear, directional, you know, forward coming. It's based in testosterone that is, you know, strong. And that end through the tantric practice, a man can actually learn to also have multiple orgasms or be in the orgasmic wave. And that's one of the practices that men learn. So we have women's workshops and men's workshops and co-ed workshops. And specifically in the men's workshop, one of the main practices is for them to learn as a homework practice how to separate ejaculation from orgasm. And that's a couple of things. One, a lot of guys, you know, well, you know, I'm not a quick comer. I can, you know, last as long as I want. She can have all her pleasure and I can come when I get ready. That's not what I'm talking about lasting. I'm talking about a new dimension of consciously circulating this orgasmic nectar. So that means you can ride on this orgasmic wave for an hour or 45 minutes or 30 minutes or however long you want. And you don't always have to end in an ejaculation. There's ways with muscle, breath awareness and energetic awareness that you can practice learning how to get to 10 being that ejaculatory moment, eight, eight and a half, nine, nine and three quarters and even a 10 where you can actually have an energetic ejaculation. And you won't spill semen. There won't be ejaculatory reflex and you won't have refractory where you lose the erection and you will still be able to stay engaged because once we as men have the orgasm it's pretty much over until we can regenerate. So if you can transmute or and circulate that energy then you can be complete for a moment but still be able to engage and have energy for other things because it's not just sexual energy. You can use that same energy for other creative pursuits energetic pursuits the next day and so on. You know, the thing about it, Debbie too is like the sexual energy is creative. It creates life, it's pleasurable when we're in it. And when you bring consciousness to the sexual creativity and pleasure starts showing up in areas of your life that seem completely unrelated to sex and the simple process of living. And as opposed to like, well, you know I hate my job, 30 more years of retirement that dog actually doesn't hunt anymore because now we're listening what happens energetically when I have this thought and what happens to the total felt sense of my neuro system, my circulatory system, all of the whole body because the thoughts are as powerful as anything we'll ever have. So once we start getting what we call this witness and distance from all of that then we can start choosing how we're experiencing our life a little more. That's a lot said, I know. Sorry. Yeah, no, I'm tracking completely. Okay, good. So many questions. So let me lead with this and write this other one down. So let's just say based on what you're saying people these days, as you know they're so busy, right? So how do they learn to incorporate and dedicate time to lying together, to being together? How can they shift out of that busyness and make this really conscious choice about beingness and sensitivity together? That's a great question. It has a lot to do with intentionality. That is where it starts. An intentionality about our relationship or if someone wants to be in a relationship and intentionality is the key thing. It only will show up if you bring awareness to it and energy to it. Which means that I need to be clear where do I wanna bring my energy to in life? Usually there are three senior priorities, work, family and relationship. Some people may have something else. And then with intentionality to make sure that all three of them are equal. If one is more important, then you get the results in the other that you don't hold as important. So that means intentionality of that. This is my relationship with Freddie is just as important as to internal law. It's more important. It doesn't have to be less important, you know. Then the intentionality shows up every moment throughout the day. It may be through a phone call or a text or very particular practices we have that take one or two minutes. Like for example, the hall 12 connection we can just show. Yeah, so I can come to Elspeth when she's busy at her desk or vice versa. And we come to the front which is the fourth chakra, the heart chakra and the same position in the back, mirroring the back. Can you see it? We're creating like a mudra where I'm holding in the front and the back. And then we gaze into each other's left eye and then we breathe in together and we exhale together and we might do that for 20 seconds or so. But just the stopping and being present for a moment is reminds us of the gratefulness and the joy of just not having to be so busy in our head. Yeah, the breathing is essential. So we do synchronized breath, we breathe in together and we breathe out together. And on the inhalation, I receive Freddie's laugh from his heart and on the exhalation, I send, you know. Send energy, love energy. My love into his heart. So we have the circuit and we very intentionally look into each other's left eye because that is correlated to the right brain hemisphere and it immediately brings us into this experiential easy place where we drop out of our head. It happens. It's not like, oh, I have to stop thinking. No, it's going forward. Well, what you can do Debbie and one of the things we teach are how to direct our energy. So the mind is busy. It's going to wander and you're going to be there going like, you know, well, I'm waiting to feel something. I don't feel anything. So you use your mind, you put your attention, attention on the breath and your intention to move it on the exhalation and receive it on the inhalation. Now you're using your mind's focus to tune into a subtlety of energy that is there. Yeah. And this happens like this, look at me then. So we're just connecting perhaps three breaths. It's not a long time, but when we do it, we are fully there. Now, this is an agreement we make beforehand because there may be moments when I sit at the computer, I'm so engrossed in some project and when Friday comes, it could feel like an imposition at that particular moment, but given that I agree to, because that is where my intentionality is in terms of my relationship, that I take a moment and this moment recalibrates not only me, but also this connection is established right away. And we can do this at any moment. And of course, what we say is that intimacy doesn't start in the bedroom. It is every moment or in the kitchen or, you know. So when you ask how do couples find the time, it's what's the cost if you don't. And it's pretty severe. I will tell you, first of all, you guys are so beautiful. You're so physically beautiful. And then to see you do that exercise together, I felt that here, that was so moving to feel you connect like that so quickly to drop in together. Because you know that place, you know, we all as humans know that place and we look like it's over there, but it's always available to us. So these are the tools for us all to tap into it regularly because we can really forget that it's there, you know, with all the busy and all of the external reference stuff that we are. And forgive me for asking this very ignorant question. When you do the couples workshops, do they get assignments and then they go back and do them and there's more sharing or here's the question to Jor that I know a lot of people ask is, do I have to get naked in front of other people? So let's get it out and answer that. Good question. So let's clarify that. There's no nudity in any of our workshops. And we designed it like that intentionally. The intimacy practices that we teach are then done as homework. And in class, in the workshop or the retreat, we do demonstrate them. However, we have props, you know, that we can use to be very explicit in terms of instruction so people can really move into a new space with great guidelines. And when we demonstrate it, there is such an energetic, just what you described from watching us here, just, you know, imagine showing this in that, let's say the ritual for the woman where I receive and Freddie then gives to me, you know, where I'm really so attuned with myself and he's listening and I can ask for whatever I want or, you know, that it becomes very visceral without being naked, you know. And then people go off and do it. If it's a men's workshop, they do their solo practice as homework practice. They just work with themselves. In the women's workshop, Awaken to Your Feminine Essence, you know, the women go on Saturday afternoon and do their self-love practice. We call it self-love practice versus masturbation, which is very different, you know, tragically speaking and experientially. And then in the couples or co-ed workshops, you know, people go to the hotel room or if they are here from the area of Chicago, then they go home. If actually when singles come, they pair up with a practice partner and that practice partnership is not about falling in love with each other or having sex together. No, it's to do the learning and to support each other in, you know, each other's learning. So yeah. Okay. Well, you mentioned the women. What does it take for a woman to let go into receiving and trusting plus connect with her feminine essence? What needs to occur for there to be the letting go, the receiving, the trusting and the feminine essence? Yes. So, you know, long before we actually go to sexual intimate practices, work a lot on emotional intimacy. And it starts over here. If I'm not intimately connected with myself, I can listen to myself tune with myself on all levels, sexual, emotional, mental, spiritual levels. I cannot do this with another. So in the women's workshop, I guide women to connect with these different dimensions through practices, you know, through processes. There's a very particular process for the women to drop into their subconscious because that what they struggle with, be it emotionally or be it sexually or relationally, is really lives in the subconscious. If it lived in the conscious mind, they already would have resolved it, you know, by themselves. So when they drop into that subconscious place of themselves, they can discover, you know, where certain notions, certain feelings, certain apprehensions may come from. And we do that process, not now to dig in the past. No, we use it so that we have a reference in the past. So for example, with me, with that 18 year old, you know, that hadn't come up in my present day sexual relationship with men. But that is where my distrust was, you know, fueled by and by tapping into that, then I have a choice. If I wanna perhaps perpetuate that pain, emotional pain and physical pain I experienced then that's still running underneath like an undercurrent or let that go so that I could drop into myself, come home to myself and trust myself. And so trusting is not an act that we do, you know, like, okay, I wanna trust now. It's not how it works. It's really tapping into that often, that place that is so vulnerable, perhaps that got hurt and that we cover up. So when we cover up something, we cannot be alive in that place. We cannot be expressed, fully expressed in that place. So just one moment. And then to your question about the trusting is that in the process, when that what holds us back, fizzles out, I call it the original self shows up. Because when we come into this world, we don't, it's not a question of trusting or not. We're just alive, we move, look at infants, they are not constricted anyway in the body, in their emotional self. But then we grow up and we start compartmentalizing so we can cope with the world, with the punishment, with the fears, all of that. And that is what in some sense we wanna undo so that that authentic original self can arise. In that place, it's actually very easy to trust them, but it's a process, and it doesn't go through the head. Okay. And Freddie, did you wanna add something to that? I wouldn't say, Debbie, once you have an actionable insight, like something that, well, before you get to the actual insights, you come in with an intention and you have an idea of what you wanna create, whether it's the girlfriend or a better relationship with your beloved, whatever it is. And once you can get an idea of what that feels like, just dispel any disbelief of that it's not happening or that it can't happen, but just allow yourself to drop into the imagination of it happening. Then we can begin to work with the subtle energy that is the resistance that keeps us from allowing that to be so. And it's in this working with the sexual energy and the shifts that happen, how we become in an altered state with intention and beginning to be in this witness state where we're watching the total felt sense of all these stories and beliefs to then begin to move and step slowly towards what we most deeply desire, getting out of our own way, seeing what we didn't see before that kept us from allowing in what we most deeply desire. And that's how it all comes together as a gestalt to shift with working consciously with sexual energy. And we've seen it with people who are big meditators who don't know anything about it, all levels of economic and educational agendas, races, all over the world, we've done this work. And we've get 99% results for people. That's really good. Yeah. That's really good. How long does the workshop? So most of them are three days. The mastery program is more, it's a three-month programs over time. But so we start with what we call the foundations, workshops, there's one for men, there's one for women, and then there's a COVID foundations workshop. And they are three days long, like a long weekend. Unresidential, but so really, and it's like an intensive for three days, you get totally immersed. Sounds amazing. Yeah, it's really, it's like recalibrating. And it's in the greatest city. It's in Chicago. Yes, yes. And we have a beautiful Institute. It's a place where when people enter our studio, they say, oh, it feels so safe here, which is, of course, essentially in order to trust. You know, so and yeah, so they start out, we start out with cultivating emotional intimacy. Now that doesn't mean that in these foundational workshops that the sexual doesn't show up, but we don't go in terms of practices in on the first, on the entry level. Because again, in order to cultivate trust, trust towards myself, and then trust towards another or others, it's essential that we go slow and that we allow ourselves to start feeling through the heart. And once we are more connected in the heart, then opening to our sexual self, because we really want an integration of the heart and the sex. For men, it's more like connecting the sex with the heart. So they learn how to, you know, transmute and breathe up. They have wonderful energy into their heart. For most women, it's opening their heart so that their sexual center or your knee, as it's called in Sanskrit, which means sacred space, so that their sacred space can open. Yeah. If people have different rhythms, one likes to have intimacy way more than their beloved. How does that play out? Are there techniques to help people be ostensibly on the same page? Well, you know, there are a variety of, you know, variations that people can work out, as opposed to resisting. One can look at, well, what is my need to want to have sex so much? And the other could look at what is my need to not want to have sex so much? And then between all of it, there can be a way for them to come together. Now, the thing of it is, is a lot of women, even though they may love their guy, and he's like, but we have many couples come to us in the peak of their sexual energetic, like in their 30s or early 40s even, or even sometimes 20s. And she's like, you know, I don't know if he loves me. And he's like, of course I love you, baby. Look at me with the erection, you know? And she's like, yeah, but can you kiss me with your heart? And that's not something that most guys learn. I mean, we're okay with two emotions, fucking or fighting. Those are the two that are okay for guys, but hugging and intimacy and coddling, that's something for guys in the guy world. It's like, you know, you're gonna get taken. You're gonna get hurt. Keep your cards close to your vest. And so what happens in the men's workshop is one of the actual insights they get are the emotional exercises we do. And they begin to see that there can be a broadening of this emotional experience for them as men. And that connects them with themself and also then with their counterpart in a deeper way. And then learning to separate the ejaculation from orgasm gives them some consciousness around what seems to be automaticistic and uncontrollable. Yeah, so the differences in desire and drive is really just what Freddie alluded to. It's like for the men to become more aware of himself. But it could be the other way around. It could be the other way around. Because I've experienced that. So it could be where the female is much more desirous of more intimacy than the male has whatever, hormonally or intentionally. So it's then really, because then again, back to the giving and the receiving, the giving is like, if the desire is higher, you know, the giving is easier because there is this, you know, it's a higher testosterone that can show up in women as well. And the one who may have a lower drive, you know, is that calls more for reawakening. So how can we play again in this giving and receiving that the one who is more desirous, you know, is also aware of that and can transmute the desire through the breath so that it's not so intense yet can be channeled and then be an invitation to the other instead of being felt like it's a demand. And that is something to do with both how we manage our energy and how we listen to each other. And then also that it's an invitation. If both are committed to the relationship, then if there are differences in like if they question their commitment, it's difficult, you know, to bridge that difference in desire because that can only be bridged if we are deeply committed to our highest good individually and together, you know and then of course, if I have less desire than Freddie, then I welcome his invitation. And then I'm also, you know I allow myself to be invited. And I also, you know, of course, I'm open to take my time or ask him to go slow or to touch me, yeah, touch me. Usually there's something behind the opposition one way or the other. There's something that's not being seen about being together but then fighting about this very intimate thing, you know and for guys sometimes if a woman is really too much intimacy for guys can be scary if they haven't really honed their capacity to hold all that intimacy. For you guys, I mean, you're a longtime couple in both life and in work, which is amazing. You come from dramatically different backgrounds. How today do those differences play out in your relationship personally and career-wise and how do you manage those and negotiate them? So the beauty is that over the years, I know very well over the years, really that has been a growing and learning together to actually for both of us as I see it and please correct me if you see it differently is that both of us owns their gifts fully. So the whole competitive thing fighting for air time, all of that that has pretty lessened because Freddie contributes in his way and I contribute in my way. So that is how like when we teach or when we speak with you that we come from different places and they complement each other. And then in terms of our sexual energy there have been different phases in our relationship. There used to be times when Freddie was much more desirous than I was when I post menopausal and on the other hand, that was really good because we both had to look at who we are as sexual beings and what is right for me, what is right for him. And from that place create our relationship instead of thinking, oh, there's something wrong it should be different, you know and now, there are also times when I'm all the desirous have more desires, you know but we just move with it then. It's really a co-creation instead of having expectations for some result or outcome or performance or that this depends in the way we relate sexually together that this has something to do with how much he loves me or how much attention I get. They are no longer correlated. Yeah, we've been together for 21 years which is the longest relationship I've ever been in. I think before this one it was five years, you know and I'll be 60, I was just 66 years old. But the thing of it is Debbie we almost to the six months to the day we met we transcended what I call the romantic drama, you know and we created this baby, Tantra Nova and Tantra Nova has been something that feeds us physically and feeds us emotionally, collectively and individually and it's the greatest gift for me that I could be doing in my life in this world. I mean, before this I was in corporate America and it was just a job. I was in the software business it was glamorous in San Francisco and Adam Mercedes and all that stuff was all in place but it was like there was after 15 years it was something missing. So coming to Chicago meeting Elzbeth and then creating this work, it was like a kismet as you said earlier it was like an intuitive aspect of me that said go to Chicago and meet Elzbeth, you know even though a company hired me that was the ruse, you know but it was really coming here to meet Elzbeth and do this work. So, you know, relationships never what it was it's never what it's gonna be, it's what it is and most of us can't be with what it is because we are in our head analyzing the moment thinking about the past, figuring out the future and we missed the moment. So in this work we really practice familiarity and accessibility to the moment. That was beautiful. I loved how you just said that so busy elsewhere that we miss the right now and the present that is very powerful. And I want to harken back to something Freddie you said in the very beginning you left us with a teaser and you use the words sexual or sex transmutation and you said you wanted to talk about that later well, here we are. I would like to hear about that. What is sex transmutation? Yeah. Okay, well science will tell you that energy is one there's no any kind of energy before you turn it into electrical energy to drive a light a light bulb or drive a car or some other kind of way of energy but it's unique when it manifests as sexual energy it's creative and it's pleasurable. And when men don't have the ejector reflex and lose that energy through the lust or through the procreative process and we start to bring some consciousness to it we can transmute that general energy to again I mentioned it earlier to empower our creative day to be more connected in the moment without beloved to have energy to play with our kids have energy to catch a plane or whatever it might be that's transmuting sexual energy. So this is just as applicable to women not just men that we can just as we harness electric energy, you know, 200 years ago we can harness our sexual energy the sexual energy is there already because it's life force energy it's the same sexual energy and life was energy are no different. So it just shows up at different gradations you know that right now it's probably, you know a subtle energy at least I assume that none of us is aroused right now. So, and then it goes up, you know all the way to highly aroused and then the climax. So it's this whole range and we want to become more attuned to this range and be sensitive and notice. And then I can learn to breathe up that orgasmic nectar or that subtle energy I can breathe it up through my torso up into my third eye and then instead of having a climax or an ejaculation I can circulate it. So I can stay in this energy for a long time. I do not have to have a climax or an ejaculation to complete because after a while I feel fee I will feel complete, very satisfying, very fulfilling. I can also transmute it into a project into writing a book, you know or into creating a company. Yeah, Napoleon Hill spoke about it in reference to what his book was about which was making money and being, you know financially successful. So you can do ritual and you have that as an intention to have your project, whatever your business work be what you envision it to be. And what happens is you get really deeply connected to that vision, more deeply connected in that altered state of what happens in the sexual energetic as a ritual practice. And I know you sometimes people by listening say well that sounds a little woo woo but you know what's really woo woo Debbie are single cell amoebas, multi-cell organisms and a universe that goes on for ad infinitum and that's our lineage. So we are just uncovering something that was around before we as homo sapiens thinking and aware of our own existence had language before we even had languages energy was around. So we're just beginning to uncover what's possible. And I think that the whole else been mentioned earlier the whole, you know, focus on a pornography and a lot of the sexual abuse of stuff that's happened in a lot of these organizations is all part of the spiritual, the quantum leap that we are about to make in terms of really getting this energy as a way of being and it's not about Sodom and Gomorrah. It's about being what this energy is when we're in it we could teach these practices to nuns and priests and it would shift how they are being with their parishioners and living in their life. In a conscious way, not like the priests in the Catholic church. Right, right, right. Totally get it. Yeah, that's so powerful. And it sounds like this circulating the sexual energy it sounds delicious to be honest. And I am just, as I'm listening to you there are things that my partner and I do just, you know, some we've heard a little bit and then instinctively do things like this breathing and the gazing not exactly as you do, but I can tell you makes a huge difference that everything else falls away and to look into someone's eyes to have the appreciation, the beauty, the care, just the beingness in that moment. We did it last night before we went to bed. And I can see your glow. Yeah, exactly. And then we have things we, we actually haven't done it enough, you know and there are things we do that I call the nest that I can we nest tonight, you know so we can create some of that intimacy and some of that receiving and it's really important to me. Yeah. And I just want to also address as I'm saying that age because you know, I think it's easy for people to assume as you were giving out some ages 20s, 30s and maybe early 40s but you know, for people who are older than that I remember I saw there was a great show and I won't remember the name of it it was like on HBO or Showtime famous Irish actor was playing a therapist and people used to come see him. And the only thing I remember about this show is that there was an older couple 70s or 80s and you used to see them there was literally love making scenes of them in bed and I was like, yes, like that is so beautiful that TV is depicting that they're not sitting in some rocking chair these are vital, alive, loving involved intimate people couple. So let's talk a little bit about age age and this Tantra. Well, let me just start out by saying like I said earlier, it's not what it was not what it's gonna be, it's what it is and when we drop our resistance to what it is everything's good. So as we change as men from being really highly sexually active in our 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s even and we start to slow down, wind down what is at risk wishing that it's gonna be what it was it's what it is. So how do we move with that? And what's new skills that we learn and employ? So that's the thing. Yeah, and also for a man really tuning more again, this connection of sex and heart because he gets more attuned to the subtleties within himself and the listening and the appreciation of pleasure that is not dependent on performance, you know so the other dimensions open up and for me, I'm 72 years old, you know and I'm young. And not and young and gorgeous. And so, you know, too, it's all about a life-ness. So what back to intentionality bring the intentionality to the energetic life-ness and through the tendric practice there is, you know, with the breathing and the energy and of course also what I put into my mouth, you know and how I move my body, all of that how I support myself hormonally all of that plays a role. The dedication is to be and feel alive. And so a life-ness, we really activate through greater consciousness around our energetic self. You know, there are other ways as I said, nutrition, hormones, all of that appropriate exercise, nothing has to be overdone. It's just bringing awareness to that. And then the flow also through the tendric practice and aging is that we connect, you know just like this, connecting heart to heart. It's like a heart orgasm. Heart orgasms. I love it, heart orgasm, I'm in, I'm in. You know, your Tom Chernova website, it's so cool because it also features theater, love tours, retreats and more. Can you unpack a little bit about what's possible, Freddie? It looks like you're a song and dance man. Yeah, I do that too. It's been a passion of mine since I was a little kid actually, I used to play guitar and then I had this big growth spurt towards the end of elementary school and then athletics became my winning suit and I went on to college on scholarship with that. But when we found that this worked 21 years ago, I wanted to rediscover myself in terms of theater because there's such opportunity for insight in theater because you are totally unmasked and so on. So I created this show at one time in our work that I toured all over the world and there were five songs in it, original songs. And so I did it the way I wanted to do those songs. But after the show and I stopped touring the show, I wanted to learn singing jazz. So I've been singing jazz for about three or four years now and I sing at the jazz clubs and actually April 9th, next Saturday, we're doing what we do a couple, three or four times a year. It's called a musical suare here at our institute and we have guests who pay, they come and you can wear your tuxedo. I'm wearing mine and we have hors d'oeuvres and champagne and I sing jazz tunes, have a piano accompaniment and it's a great time. It's all around love and intimacy and... Yes. Oh well, okay, beautiful. So talented. Well, Elspeth and Freddie, this is Dare to Dream. So what are you next, Dare to Dream? What are your future dreams and goals? So what I'm dreaming, continue dreaming is to really spread this opportunity that we shared with you today to as many people as possible for their sake that they can see, oh, there's another way of creating fulfillment in my life with myself with a beloved, if I wanna be with a beloved so that new possibilities arise for people in how they can feel love, intimacy and be deeply connected with their life-giving sexual self. No matter whatever your age. Mm-hmm, whatever you are. And the best place for people to find you is at TantraNova.com. Yes. Yes. T-A-N-T-R-A-N-O-V-A that come like supernova, and also of course our book, A Sexual Enlightenment, How to Create Lasting Fulfillment in Life, Love and Intimacy, is now available in Audible and audio books. So you don't have to hold the book anymore. You can just listen to it while you ride in your car. You're peloton or golf or whatever you do and cook. And get sexually enlightened. That's right, that's right. That's beautiful. Thank you both so much for coming on the show today. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks Debbie. Thank you. Amazing. TantraNova.com folks. And I end today's show with this quote from Chagyam Trungpa. Tantra is the hot blood of spiritual practice. It smashes the taboo against unreasonable happiness, a thunderbolt path, swift, joyful and fierce. There is no authentic Tantra without profound commitment, discipline, courage, and a sense of wild, full-hearty, fearless abandon. Subscribe to this number one transformation conversation the weekly Dear to Dream podcast with your host, Debbie Daschinger. Leave a comment. I love reading them and I get back to all of you. And next week on the show featured is Joya Sasnowski, a sound and voice healer and quantum spirituality coach. Joya has been studying the Aramaic teachings of Yeshua for many years and has created a formula for awakening and ascension based on these teachings. Remember folks, don't just dare to dream but be really yummy and delicious in your life and learn how to practice Tantra perhaps with these folks, read their book, listen to their audible and maybe go to Chicago and learn how you can have a truly ecstatic life. Thanks for joining us today.