 Welcome back. This is why in the morning my name is Ramma Gukko It is a pleasure being with you today on this fine Monday morning. If only that you're just joining us You're just in time for the next conversation of the day and it's all about matters concerning youth and Politics and of course we're coming to you live from the Kenya broadcasting corporation the broadcasting house in Nairobi, Kenya We are also streaming live through our website and that's at www.kbc.co.ke 4 slash y 254. This is your number one news station And of course we value of feedback the hashtag is why in the morning tag me at Ramma Gukko and Y 254 channel and of course we will sample your feedback a bit later on During this morning show, but in this particular conversation today want to take a look at stories making headlines and especially Taking a keen interest into the people daily these Monday morning remember it is the 23rd of May 2022 and we shall take a look at Politics and stories that have been turning in the past few days and of course what we should be Expecting in the next one week. Very good morning to you to help us in this particular conversation I am with to my fur right joined by Kaleb E Kenye, you know, uh, uno who is The law and who is a law and a political analyst and next to me I am with a mesh or Tiena who is a political Activist and the CEO of awake limited cadwisana gentlemen Thank you. Go Salama Sandesana and of course much crew. Let me start with you Meshach and today on the conversation that we are having in this fine Monday morning Is one that I'm sure many Kenyans will be really interested in remember the August Elections are coming up in a few. It is August 9th. And of course this election will not come by free of charge It will cost us a staggering 44.2 billion shillings. That's right 44.2 billion Kenyan shillings, which is what is going to cost us And this is according to a report published by the national treasury And aligning the high cost of democracy in the country 22 billion shillings has already been disbursed to the independent electoral and boundaries commission and other government agencies involved in planning and Conducting of the coming election and providing support services such as security. So here We're looking at another 22.1 billion Kenyans shillings, which will be financed in the 2022-23 financial budget financial year, which starts on 1st of July this year about a month and a week to the election in total the various Departments involved in the election has had asked for an allocation of 67.1 billion Kenyan shillings, but this was reduced to 43.9 billion Kenyan shilling so special attention will be on the main on maintaining peace security throughout the increase to throughout and of course Ensuring that we have increased vigilance during this election year in period So the August election will cost you and I the Kenyan taxpayer of a 44 Billion Kenya shillings Meshach. What do you think about that? Thank you Ram for for the invite this morning. First of all Before I get into the real issue. I want to congratulate the minister for education that is Professor Magoha for ensuring a hundred percent transition to school and Basically being on the field to ensure that you know all the pupils all the candidates who do the KCP transition Successfully transition to secondary school and the reason why I'm bringing that on board is We need as a country to begin thinking about where we need to put money the most If you look at the kind of elections and the money that has been stated that needs to run these election Is a lot and remember Canada is the second largest country after Russia yet They are the cost they put in election is half what we are basically You know asking for what IBC is asking for and then you basically try and ask yourself Are we going to have a peaceful election? Are we going to have a credible election? Is these amount really necessary if in the past few years Electionary years we've not had a peaceful a calm and a credible election. So you find out that in every election year in Every citizen has to cough a lot of money from their pocket that which goes into waste So for me, this is an entire amount that I think is really not necessary We we can do away with a lot of things we can we can do local printing of you know, you know, you know ballot papers other than you know doing Doing them from outside. We can make sure we localize mechanisms to reduce cost So IBC has to now think about the common monarchy. The struggle right now is Economic struggle. How do you ensure that you run an election that is credible? We've less than what you require Because at a country where we are we are past crisis point, but but but I'm looking at Lessons learned from previous elections. Do we do we have lessons learned from previous election? Do we really have those lessons and I'll bring you back to 2017 for example We know that if there is one election hearing period that we've faced a magnitude of challenge or magnitude of challenges is in the 2017 where we actually had a repeat election Those elections were nullified by the Supreme Court That was the first learning point that we needed to have but remember Today we are going into an election with the same body that bungled an election in 2017 and Actually made us go into a repeat election But yet we are not reflecting so much as to whether we have lessons drawn from the 2017 elections Here now they are Asking for a hooping 43 billion to ensure that this election is successful. They are not sharing the learning points They're not sharing with us the strategy. They are just mocking around the amount. So as Kenyans We never have learning points right from every election hearing period But of course I'm looking at some of the things that are being Handled during this particular time. We are looking at the training of of officials We are looking at the training of of those who are going to handle these particular documents the polling officials So many people are being trained that are going to be handling these elections So you cannot train something someone on things based on You know what has not yet happened meaning that as a country there are some lessons you've picked There's some lessons you've learned and that's what we are training people. Don't you think that measure? I think I think yes It's it's really good to look at it. I mean, I mean at that point or at that angle But what I'm saying is she reflect with us on the past You know crisis that we've had and the reason why you are training A lot of people for this election period I mean IBC has not been so much keen on sharing with us the insights drawn from the previous election so they are continuously in this vicious circle of doing things and Asking for a lot of money and this is why I'm saying is that we can reduce some of these things They have mechanism to ensure that the kind of amount that they are requesting right now can be reduced And I'm so sure like I've just spoken about printing of ballot papers These are things that we don't need to do outside of our country. We can do them local here We can ensure that the police gives us enough security without paying more private security We can ensure that youths volunteer with little amount to Make sure that the elections run successfully So there are mechanisms that that can guarantee us a very peaceful election, but also a very affordable election All right, let me let me come to you Khalib your thoughts in regards to this particular issue here And of course, I'm looking at security Do you see that now we have proper funding to ensure that we will have proper security during this coming general elections? Okay, thank you so much Once more my name is Khalib and I thank you for inviting me for another time I will say this Whether the election cost will be 40 billion whether the election cost will be a hundred billion Provided we have a credible Transparent and a clear process. It does not matter the cost Like you have put it we are having you know a crisis a financial crisis in Kenya But again, we cannot give a blind eye to the fact that there are officers who need to be trained and as you know as democracy grows and For an instance with Kenya Kenya. I think it's Number two in terms of growth of democracy after South Africa in Africa as the democracy grows the more expensive it becomes So we must be ready to embrace and like my brother here is saying I would like to correct him It's not I abc that that is demanding for more cash. It's not I abc that is you know asking For more funding, but it's the demand in the ground. We need to you know, we need to To acquire, you know the necessary skills From that from the officers being trained on ground on how to deliver a credible election And again, we cannot also give a blind eye that there is always competition and we must embrace competition and for an instance that we have a tie between you know the up to presidential Candidates in you know in the forthcoming general elections. We must also be ready to you know to embrace another cost If it will be another 40 billion we must also be ready, but provided the process is transparent and clear And of course your thoughts on the issue of security the main issue of Interior has a located around 500 billion Kenyan shillings to enhance security especially in areas that are considered to be Violent hotspots. Okay. Thank you so much once more For this reason I'll first want to criticize that move and at the same time also embrace it Number one why would criticize that move is because of this for an instance in an for instance in an area like Baringo County The government has made it as tried, you know Taking their security apparatus taking their security personnel, and we have not gotten a clear You know a clear clear leeway on how issues are there in terms of security But here they are they are coming and telling us, you know what we want to beef up security when it's approaching the election year In period and we want to ensure that you know the election will be peaceful So my question is how can we fail to provide security to those people in Baringo to those people in Areas that are deemed to be you know to be security host in security hot hotspots area Yet we want to deliver a peaceful election in those area. So If indeed these 500 million will ensure that there is a peaceful election period then well and good But also let them also look at the bigger picture For those people who are in insecure regions in Kenya according to the report It trades partly and I quote during the 2022 general election the State Department for Interior will continue to provide security in the whole country and At the polling stations during the actual polling day in the report We have 16.9 billion chill links that will be used for general election activities in addition We have general election materials that will be Allocated while we Will have a mass voter registration, but the issue of security still Has been given so much prominence if you look at the particular statement And the government is really interested in this particular issue here as even the the Ocuri attorney who From the national treasury say that he will continue to monitor and address the challenges that may disrupt the election by monitoring the Dr. Situation in some parts of the country and of course the threats to security Among others that might threaten the economy Do you agree with what he said Meshack and your thoughts in regards to that particular issue? I Want to challenge a certain thinking that is brought on board When he actually mentions that you know that the demand is Our democracy has grown and that the demand is on the ground. So then the question would be Does a democracy grow just because our population has grown? What is what do we actually refer to as a democratic growth? Is it Democratic country and that is where I'm growing that is where I'm coming. That is where I'm coming to Do our democracy grow just simply because our population multiplies everywhere Our democracy is tested on a number of things and this year Our democracy is called to be tested on how we are able to conduct our elections The body in charge of election is IEBC So it is not the ground that is asking for 43 billion. It is the IEBC that is asking for 43 billion Now if our elections are going to be credible if the process is going to be verifiable If the results are going to be the genuine result then that is the genuine test of our democracy in this year But there are a number of times that our democracy is tested our democracy is tested through the courts Where you have the chief justice as the president of the Supreme Court our democracy is tested through our you know Independent institutions, so we cannot just simply in a very Simplistical literally literal way say that our democracy is tested by the people on the ground our democracy is tested through the institutions Through the bodies that we have constituted constitutionally to help us, you know elevate our democracy So I think I have made that clear So you're saying that the issue of the 44 billion chilling it is it is too much for us I mean, it's vague it's Yes, it's vague because I just gave an example and they said Canada is the second largest country in the world Right, just immediately after Russia and their election costs a half of what Kenya is demanding now What what is what is Kenya actually? Worldwide even in terms of positioning even in Africa. Why should we demand that kind of money? Has our democracy grown than Canada in fact has our democracy grown than the US Right, so we really can't say that just because there is a lot of voters that are going into this election this year That our democracy has grown that will just be like False right now on the issues of security Every election year in here and I repeat this every election year election year in here We have always wanted to focus so much on security as if though we are predicting conflict as if though We are already, you know interfering with the process What the populace need is when they can go and vote in the morning till evening and their votes are counted and And transmitted according to the constitutional remits and they are given results by evening You don't need to be for security everywhere if we if IBC is demanding 43 billion Why is this other 500 million going to I mean these 43 billion should be an Inclusive should be inclusive of the security, but why are we also just talking too much about security? Can we talk about the credibility of the election has IBC learned from? 2017 are we going into another sham and scum election? So they are a little bit more dynamics to looking at you know What this amount is going to do then security obviously security is a very vital matter But until that point there are a lot of similar issues that we need to address and I'll tell you some of those issues The IBC that is going with us Into this election is an IBC That was actually ordered by the Supreme Court to open the service in 2017 and they didn't so they are in Contempt of the court these IBC I'm telling you shouldn't even be running this election by now And these are some of the things that we really need to have on a conversation table You see when you are in a studio like this, this is a sitting room for over 20,000 Kenyans and they're listening to what we have to say if you want to support beefing up of security With a body that bangled an election and is in contempt of the court Has our democracy grown all right and then all right and that's a question collect. Maybe I'll give you time to respond to that Okay, once more. Thank you. I have had these complaints I'll call the I'll call the statements complaints and opinions because number one has talked about the CJ The debt the chief justice. I don't know how the chief justice and democracy come into into play However, this is what I want to say in this year. We have 48 people 48 citizens cleared by the independent electoral and boundaries Commission They have been cleared to run for the presidency in comparison to 2017 I am not sure the number of candidates, but I I don't think they were above 12 in number. I am I don't think so and that is why I'm saying The the more than democracy grows the more it demands for financial, you know pumping so Again, my brother here said that We can use the skill available on ground. I Am not of I'm not objecting that fact, but the question is Are we suitable right now? Are we fit to take up the roles? I will fit to use the the youths that you are talking about to ensure that we you know We deliver a credible election number one. I'll say this. This is Kenya. We live in Kenya We are not in Europe. We are not in Canada and Issues that are affecting us right now are not the same issues that affect Canada We are in Africa and we must understand and also try, you know to embrace How can we improve and how can we move from the past? You know failures in as much as we want to achieve what other first first world countries have achieved