 All right, welcome to Jenkins governance meeting. It's the 1st of December, 2021. So here were the topics that I had news, election status report, and highlights from the meeting list and community forum. Any other topics that need to go on the agenda? Nothing specific. So I would like to add CD events to the notes. Oh, yes, yes, CD events. Good, okay. Maybe sync up on Google Summer of Code in general to understand what's our plan for the next year. But yeah, I'm not sure whether we have all people needed for this discussion. Okay, good. Any other topics? Nope. Sounds okay. So by way of news, the LTS was released today, 2.319.1 with more inclusive naming, UI improvements, and some removals of outdated and unsafe components. Thanks very much to everyone who's involved. 3.23 released earlier this week with log recorders configured as code. And path to HTML elements are using stable selectors for UI testing. Yay! What does path to HTML elements mean? It means that when you need to refer to an HTML element in a UI-driven test, but the thing is stable now instead of unpredictable. Yeah, okay. So it's a testing thing, not a, yeah, okay. Right. And Uli, I'm sure could give a much better description of why that matters than I could. I'm talking from ignorance there mostly. No, sorry. No, I was just gonna say, now these are tests that make sense. So go ahead. Yeah, I'm not sure it's really a technical detail. So it's really hard to locate the elements in the browser interface. And it's good to have them stable to assign these. We have a lot of dynamic forms, these repeatables where you click and then we have some new thing appearing on the screen and we need to identify all these elements in our tests. And this is really complicated if we can't assign the elements, then our tests are very fragile. And so now the tests are green. That's fine. Great. Thank you. And then election status report, Olivier. Sure. So I closed the election poll yesterday. So normally everybody should be able to watch the result, the detailed result if they just use the same process to vote. So if I just take all the different position because most of the position, we only had one candidate. So the first, I mean, on my list is the board member. So Mark Wait and Oleg Denachev won the board member election. We had 81 person registered for the election to vote. And 53 or 54, something like that, they effectively voted for the election. So that's the correct number. Regarding the different officers, we have the documentation which is the first one in my list. The documentation we had Mark Wait and Said, Bostan Dust, who were on the list there. So Mark Wait won the documentation officer role. And if we continue for the other officer role, we only had one candidate. So Badek Follinier won the security. I mean, he's the new security officer. On the infrastructure, Damien Duportal was the only one candidate. So he's effectively the new infrastructure officer. For the event officer, Alyssa Thon was the only one candidate. So she's the next event officer. And the release officer, we only had one candidate who's Tim Jacob. So it will continue to be the release officer. So that's for the election updates. I think it would be nice to organize a retrospective about what happened this year compared to last year and the year before. I think overall, I'm quite happy with the process, but yeah, we can always do better anyway. So now the next question is what we do with the two groups on this course that were used for the election. So one is election committee. So during the election, we only had Gavin, Evanina and me. So we mainly use that group to discuss about ongoing issues and just to coordinate during the election. And we use a second group, which is Jenkins Election Voters. Yeah, if we liked, if we are interested to reuse the same process next year, we have to decide what we do with those two groups if we let people go inside on that sense. I don't have strong opinion. I do have some strong opinion, but I'm interested to hear feedback here. Any question? No, I don't know if, I don't know if I wanna make decision right now, but I'm on board with more formalized procedure. I'm also wondering if maybe we wanna nominate someone to run the elections earlier. You know, doing it middle of last, middle of this year with only two months away, kind of put it a little bit of a tight deadline. So that way, if we do have someone who wants to run the election, then they can make these decisions a little bit stronger. But I'm also, I'm also the opinion, everything should be open. So I'm good with adding more people. Yeah, that's something having more people in the election committee, I think would be nice. So the way we did this year was, we had the two board members who were not up for re-election and I was involved in the process because I was not interested to be re-elected as an infrastructure officer. So yeah, I lead this initiative this year. I think it would be nice to have someone just from the outside helping with the election. And maybe that's something that we can start earlier than two months before the election. I actually liked how it worked with the groups in discourse. It was very easy to communicate. And it took me some time to figure out the notifications, but then it was, you know, you didn't have to check mails and if the people that were supposed to get the mails got them who was supposed to be in the group had access to the group. And well, it doesn't really matter how much we want it limited or open. I personally think that the discourse worked well enough for communication. Any other feedback? I'm plus one for allowing more people to join the elections committee. The elections committee. I think that sounds great. For me, the most pressing question for the next election is how do we get more voters? Because I think we could have used more channels. Well, we always could have used more channels. It's always a limitation of time, et cetera. But it's really a good question how we could actually have proper representation in the community because regarding these elections, I do have some reservations, but at the same time, what can we do about that? I mean, if you have suggestions about communities to contact, yeah, I mean, that's something that everybody can participate. We try to make the process as public as possible. We try to be as much as possible transparent on the process. I think we have a lot of things to improve. One of them that surprised me when I was in the first blog post, I explained that we would be very open about the kind of contribution that we consider acceptable for voting for the election. A lot of people contacted me to double-check if their contribution were okay. And yeah, that's something that surprised me this year because yeah, but otherwise regarding the communication, I've been involved in a previous edition and not having to rely on the emails was really nice. And I really like using discourse for the communication because it was so much easier just to draft communication, publish them and so on. My only disappointment, I would say, in the process this year, I mean, the two main disappointments that I had. The first one was I couldn't anymore do, I guess, GDPR. I couldn't anymore just invite all the people under the election. So I asked everybody to validate their email address on CIVS platform. That was one of the things. So the process there was a little bit more complicated. I mean, not that much because, pardon, it was enough, but yes, still. And the second thing, because people did not receive the invitation on their email address, it was not always clear for the different people which email address to use. So what I also open got as a feedback was people were wondering if they were invited for the election and because they were not using the correct email address for the platform. So in my case, I was using the email address from discourse. So yeah. And I'm sure we can come with more things in a retro. I don't want to go too far into it now. Okay, sure. One thing, when we were looking at discourse earlier, one thing we could do is add LinkedIn logins because I think there are, I don't know if anyone who would be considered a contributor doesn't have a GitHub, but for a community, yes. I think LinkedIn might be another good option. Yep. That's a good thing. The only problem that you can register twice. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's definitely a possibility, but I rather see more people join than have more barriers. So yeah. Do you guys know about any big events where Jenkins will be present in one way or another coming next year? Well, for sure. Yeah, that's a bit early. Because when you mentioned all of that, what you consider a pressing question is how to enlist more voters. I was trying to promote it in my social media, but I don't have great following. And where we actually have a lot of people that are interested in Jenkins is Jenkins boot at events. And if we had, I don't know, a QR code with link to registration page for voters, something that is as easy as it gets, I guess that could maybe encourage people to do that. Not that someone has to know that they have to look at Jenkins.io or read my tweet or, yeah, I'm pretty sure some of you have quite a following on Twitter, but yeah, a little bit different approach. I think something that may help for the future election is if we keep the Jenkins election of voter group open, people can keep, I mean, registering there. So we can just have in the community section where we explain the election process and people can just register in advance. And I'm still working on getting more and more of the community into discourse because right now we're spread so thin. It's very hard to reach anybody. But I also think our community of these contributors has gone way down. So, you know, 80 people signing up is still a lot more contributors than active contributors than I thought we had. So. Any other feedback before we move on to the next topic? Well, I'll just say thank you for doing such a great job, Olivier. Thank you. Yeah, same for me, Olivier. Thank you very, very much for one, for thinking of using discourse. I think that was absolutely brilliant. It made things much simpler in so many ways. So I have one last question. So we said that we would announce the results on Friday, but the results are kind of already public. So should we write a blog post on this? We should do it. We should do that. Somebody from the election committee? Oh, I was about to say not it. I mean, I can. I'm very bad writer. I don't like writing. So I bet I can if no one else is up for it. For me, it felt awkward in 2019 to write an announcement blog post. No, that's fine. I'll just go find the last one and copy and paste and search and place Gavin with Oleg. That sounds a brilliant idea. It's called software reuse. I don't know what you're talking about. Blogging as code. Yeah, like Morgan works for me. Yeah, we're not going to fix last names now. Okay. Anything else then on the election? Thanks so much, Olivier. Thank you. Thank you. We should just, we might want to send some of our massive amounts of, you know, like our billion dollars in funding to the Concourse Concordia people. Just to, you know, they've been great at doing it again. And I know it's the university funded, but we do have some room for throwing something at them. Good question. Yeah, so Professor Myers. It sounds like he's like a one person in operation. Yeah, I think I had that feeling myself watching the tweets about his bringing it back to life. Yeah, I was very kind of him. If he wasn't a university, I would have suggested work, reach out to him and say, hey, do you want us to host it? But a university tends to like to host their own things, so. Right, yeah. So something he shrugged. Yeah, I'm thinking that's actually probably not a bad idea. That's a great idea. Let me take Mark to connect to send him Jenkins swag. I think that's a great idea. I would love to see him in a Jenkins t-shirt. And in general, even if you send him a couple of extras to give to any students and stuff he works with, students don't get swag and it's always a big win for them. So. Great, we'll do. I'm not sure where we stand on budgets for swag, et cetera. I mean, so Alisa became events officer. So it goes going forward. She will be taking care of that. But yeah, the current state is just a huge pain. And if I may add something, although I appreciate if someone wants to send me something, I would prefer to be asked and kindly say no, because maybe we don't need to fly things around half of the world. You know, there's a lot of reasons for not doing that, which is not me saying it's fundamentally wrong, but I know of a lot of people that would prefer to have an option say thank you and don't place the resources on that. In general, it's it's a link to the swag site and not that you have to accept it. Hey, you know, hey, thank you for all your help. If you're interested, here's a link to get some free swag, but I agree. Don't don't just blindly send people stuff. Well, and we don't have their addresses. We don't have any way of shipping through them. So we can't do it blindly. Gavin's correct. Well, Professor Meyer. So, so, so we have to all we do all that Alyssa's current process does is sends them an email and invites them if they wish to enter data into a form and if they choose not to enter it, no problem, nothing sent. And a thousand teachers to the university. But we did talk about some kind of friendly swag. How do you say it option. So you could have like a voucher to plant a tree or something like that. I didn't really research that I don't know what really makes sense, but I've seen people bragging on Twitter that they chose to plant a tree instead of socks and they are happy about it. It depends on the provider. So for example, I know that October fest is doing that. But it really depends. I'm not sure that the CDF allowed to plant a tree. We can do it on our own. You donate, contribute and one of governance board members plants a tree and records it on the video. So Mark, do you have a backyard? I do have a backyard and there are plenty of problems near me. Plenty of places near me that would love to have more trees planted that are not my backyard. I don't know. Or do one of those services and expense it? Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Okay. So ready for next topic highlights from the mating lists. Yeah, there I mean, I assume this is me again. There hasn't, there wasn't a lot in the, in the last two weeks. I think I suspect with Thanksgiving, everyone's just focused on family or US Thanksgiving. I actually didn't see the user interface improvements. I think that's, that's from me. And that's lots of traffic in the, on Jenkins core. Okay. So there's no actual posts about it anywhere though. Yeah. No, this is just, well, the user experience. So user experience. Recording is on, I think, didn't we get that onto community? If not, I'm remiss and I need, I didn't see it. Okay. So Mark to put the UX. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I think what, which is the next item. I think what I tried last week where I put the government meeting notes and the recording on the community site worked really well. I didn't look at the metrics to see how many people are viewing it, but it's pretty. Public and clear that way. So. I'm thinking. Longer term or modeling a little bit more like. So matrix has a, this week in matrix. I think that's what we want to do every week, but it, we could do like this weekend or this month in Jenkins and show the various sig recordings and links to the meeting notes, whatever else like I'm thinking of that kind of idea to get more community involvement because I think right now a lot of the, the things are all isolated in their little thing and nobody sees them unless they know to go to the Gitter channel. Well, the, for me, one of the questions is pipeline ordering because we haven't removed meetings from the calendar, but as far as can tell it's completely inactive at the moment. Yeah. And there are actually several sigs like that that are completely inactive. Yeah. Cloud native seek is an active, effective car switched to CDF. She has no time. I currently have no time. I might take it over later to facilitate cloud events and open telemetry integrations, but no commitment at the moment. Yeah. Yeah, so if we start, we start switching this model and even if we start saying, okay, you know, once a month, every, I know where we talked about in the past, but every sig leader submits a blurb to add to a little post, then we can actually say, you know, there has been no time for meetings looking for a new author or that kind of thing. You know, the more we do that kind of stuff a little bit more visible becomes and then it means it does selfishly. It does make the discourse a little bit less. I need help demand. I want to help and have a lot more other discussions as well. Kind of related. I also changed the colors for the categories so that we can actually see when it's not asking for help with the different color. So, but not really a highlight, but yeah. We could just put some six on fire by taking some topics. So for example, let's deprecate the lotion for UX seek. Let's replace the Jenkins pipeline by tick ton for pipeline authoring seek. Yeah. So I'm still not a month from this meeting. Right. Yeah. We just troll everybody with, but we have to wait for a pro for that. Just to give possible deniability. But yeah, I, so yeah, that's a thing. And then we did the discussion for Java eight has sort of tapered out. But they, there was some really good discussions on the mailing list about whether or not Java eight or Java 11. I think I personally agree that the reasoning for switching should not be based on who's using it, but the desire to upgrade and use it. Because people will just stay with the old version as long as possible. And as I pointed out to mark this week, we actually had someone on Reddit ask how to upgrade from one, what was the one six, one 600 to two 30 to 300. So six years of Jenkins updates because they hadn't got around updating until they just died. So I, yeah, we should have more discussion about what we want it to be as opposed to what current people are currently using. I feel so bad for them six years of updates to try to. But see how Jenkins is reliable. Maybe they've got six years of uptime. So then it crashed and they decided to update. They said they upgraded from CentOS forward to redhead eight or whatever. And that's what made them do the upgrade. And you're like, wow. Wow. I mean, not a bad idea. Just wow, that's impressive to running family forever. But yeah, that's my update. Right. Next topic then all like CD events. Yeah, so just fresh news. CD events has been officially accepted to the continuous delivery foundation as incubating project. So what it means for us as the Jenkins community this summer we had a Google summer of code project targeting integration with cloud events. And there were some discussions about actually following the format of CD events. And one of the students was working on this project. Some initial specification was followed, but this specification has changed since that. So Jenkins is welcome to be one of the first adopters for CD events. And probably we should consider that. But if you do so, we will need some updates in the plugin. Just to clarify, what do you mean by CD events, like events where you organize events and people can talk. CD event is a specification for continuous integration and continuous delivery events. And this specification is based on the top of cloud events. So cloud events is a kind of unified event format. And CD events is just the specification for how you describe various events like built past, et cetera. So it can be followed by multiple CI and CD systems. Thank you. So basically no immediate action. I might return back to that because personally I have interest CD events can be rooted in the captain because my open source project at work. It's based on CD events, sorry, on cloud events. Actually, it has been one of contributors to the CD events specification. So for me, it's definitely interesting to have this integration, but I'm not sure about the time commitment when I get to that. So it's quite good that we get such standardization in the continuous delivery foundation. And currently we have around 12 entities, open source projects and companies that declared their intent to adopt CD events. Because companies like Rancher, CloudBees, DigitalOcean, they are also welcome to join. Just saying. I mean, I guess technically we do have a CD, but not really. Would it would like get have deployments kind of be there where you can say you did a deployment at this time, would that be something a CD event would want? Yeah. Well, then yeah, actually you might be interested. I don't know how to tell people. So yeah, anyway, the specification is just starting. So let's see how it goes. Okay. And basically that's it. So it's just for your information. I don't know input on Jenkins community, but I think to know about it. And so as companies are interested in joining, or as individuals are interesting in joining, should they contact the events SIG of the CDF or go to the project? So that's where the. So yeah, currently the CD events SIG is basically the first draft for the events project. So how it happens currently SIG governance basically implements the project governance. It's about changing in the future, but let's see how it goes. So if you're interested just join events, special interest group meeting, actually the two work streams right now. The first is vocabulary. And secondly, it's CD events. Great. Thank you. So next was Google summer of code. Oleg. Yeah, so just quick update. Most likely it will happen. At least there's no signs that it won't. And if it happens, the application, the plan for organization will be in the beginning of February. So the question is whether we participate. So who would lead with that? Yeah, I'm not sure what I will be taking. Orcal mean if we participate a CDF. Let's see. Two years in a row, I have pretty bad experience with that. I would be orcal mean if it was Jenkins project applying separately. But for CDF, I'm not ready to commit right now. So. Yeah, and basically hence the question. Yeah, so I've. Do we want to apply so we'll be driving with. I very much want to have a supply and I've got a person in mind that I've been discussing with as a potential lead for it. So I'm basically trying to follow the guidance that. Oh, like you've shown in the past on how to be an effective org, org admin and take it from there. I think fitting under CDF is still good rather than being separate Jenkins project, but open to consider either. In this case, this person has expressed interest and we're preparing them right now to be ready to get involved. So that's the number of mine at work. Okay, so let's see. So far as decision deadline will be later January. Yes, speaking of that, is anyone working with the continuous delivery foundation to get jso come on year rooted to. LFX crowdfunding account. No, I a good question I have not had not started that so is that's a Google summer of code pays funds to the open source projects that participate and yes, this year they went to the continuous delivery foundation. And what we discussed with you and the color that we need to submit a request to get sure to make sure it gets transferred to Jenkins. Because when we decided to do sponsorship for students when everything opens, then we would definitely use this money. Okay, great. All right, I'll, I'll get that get that request started to Jenkins. To jank. Yes, it basically it's to the Jenkins. How do I describe it to them to to Jenkins is is ambiguous isn't it in terms of a financial entity. No, LFX crowdfunding account is quite specific. Okay, great. All right. Thanks. The logistics is not trivial but it's possible. Okay. Anything else on Google summer of code. No. Okay. Any other topics we need to discuss today. So I just a few topic to share here. So the CI CD everyone has been accepted for first time this year so we have to announce it's pretty soon. And yeah, it would be nice to have talks about Jenkins there. But the deadline for the proposal will be very short because we are already first of December and the difference haven't been officially announced yet, right? No, because we just heard about the news yesterday or the day before. So it's yeah. So now you start to see for proposal announced on the first time meeting lists. So you have something like five or six day room. But at least on the CI CD the room we still have to to announce something. The only thing is last year we had a deadline by the end of December to have the agenda. And so that was I mean we are really late in the process because they announced accepted the room very late. And so when I mean we won't have a lot of time to to announce it and then since we're talking about FOSDOM do we want to have Jenkins stand this year? I'm not sure what's your perception from the previous year whether it's efficient to invest time in that. But from my perspective nobody came to the stand and it was really boring. So I stayed two hours with nobody coming to the booth. The other people also said nobody is really interested in the virtual booth. Yeah, so we could technically just do online meetup in the time frame or the booth. But yeah, running such a long term event like we did before. So the first thing is I would not organize an online event during the FOSDOM I mean during Saturday or Sunday because people will be busy with other stuff if they are interested to attend the FOSDOM online because FOSDOM will be online as well this year. I think I would be more interested by a small contributor summit around FOSDOM like we did last year or the year before. But otherwise, yeah, virtual booth is not something very popular at whatever the conference. So I guess the default answer would be no. Because it's difficult to find people available for the World Weekend to stay in front of the computer with no activity at the booth. That's it for me regarding FOSDOM. Mark, you made it. You're still muted, Mark. Sorry. Talking doesn't help without a microphone. Let's call it done then. We'll post the recording in 24 hours or less. Sure. Give me a ping and I'll put the notes up online. You mentioned the notes. Could we use the same tag everywhere? Because I really like what you put in place during the last governance meeting. But it's not really easy to find all the meeting notes right now on this course. So I'm just wondering if we could just use something like the same post to just add to the bottom? No. I was just wondering if we could agree on a tag so we can use that. Yeah. So, I'm just wondering if you could just do that. What have you done? I've published infrastructure meeting notes and the other. Notes. What did I use last time? I didn't use any tags last time. So, yes, yes we can. Because the first, I mean, I didn't experiments. So I created the tag meeting, I think, but it's maybe not the best one. So you only have. The infrastructure. So maybe we could. Just use. A type to quickly identify. be trying what worked what didn't and then we'll keep trying with that. So yeah I'm on board with that though. Meeting. All right so I'm gonna turn off the recording and then Gavin if you and Olivia want to continue your conversation on on that that's great with me. I was just gonna DM him but that's okay. Oh okay.