 Thank you for those previous panel members. Now I'll introduce this this panel of conversation is about indignant indigenous language materials and co-design process and The panel members will be Clint Bracknell University of Queensland. There's Crump University of Queensland Nick Thyberger University of Melbourne by Williams first languages Australia Kristen Thorpe UTS Jambana Institute for indigenous education and research and Lauren Boecker UTS Jambaka so Proceed Clint should be first. I just dropped my boy off at Kindi. So I'm just coming into this very fresh and Yeah, I guess probably to To frame this I could probably give some examples from Back west where I'm from I'm younger from the South Coast of Western Australia and in terms of Working with language material. I come at it from the arts space the creative arts space as a musician and then a music educator I sort of got Drawn to this space Because of the idea, I guess that languages can be the wellspring for indigenous creativity When we have these Forces that seek to limit People's ability to express themselves to express emotion to express feeling to express knowledge I think a lot of that comes down to limiting language So in the south of Western Australia from where I'm from language has been language use has been impacted for a very long time and in terms of I guess reinvigorating or Tapping a new that wellspring for creativity Language has been a big part of what's gone on in the new our region for a long time since at least the 1970s after a lot of those more draconian policies Had been shifted or started to shift So in terms of language data in that region where I'm from The language is still around you see it in place names people use it in everyday speech, but not speaking it right through You know, it's peppered throughout English and Then when it comes to these big arts projects that I've been part of and I say part of because it's not me leading It's me part of a big team If we didn't have the deep Reservoir of language material to draw on then those projects would not as not be as effective as what they have been so we did a younger version of Shakespeare's Macbeth that involved Over ten new our actors over about about a decade of work In terms of building up everyone's confidence to be able to do new our straight out for about an hour and a half on stage uninterrupted by English quite a tricky thing to do in a place like Perth and Took a long time and if we didn't have all That language data to draw on and there's more language data that exists that we weren't able to draw on because of those issues around copyright and all this other stuff But because the language was so I wouldn't say well documented But because there were so many sources to look at we were able to triangulate Our selection of vocabulary when responding to a challenge like that how to take Shakespeare in English with all of its many words and Shakespeare even invented words like I think he invented the word bubble So bubble bubble toil and trouble luckily. There's no word for bubble, too So we got there before English But in that process because you're dealing with a language that's like a corpus That's so great in Shakespeare in English and then we've got this corpus That's quite small like the new our dictionary that was come out in 1992 I think Nick was part of that at least the stuff that led up to that It's quite a small word list and people like Gina Williams Back home is doing albums of contemporary music in younger on it. They've been drawing on this quite small word list So when we're trying to do a big project like a Macbeth in younger I Got together all of these different word lists that I could find We've got this big spreadsheet Lauren Booker who's on the call helped me compile it And Amy Budrikes is back home who's a linguist Um sort of took that process over and It was only because we had all that data to draw on we're able to then take that to our Community reference group of language speakers and talk through if we need to come up with a word or a word that's fallen out of use Get all the evidence together look at it together and then move ahead and Then through that process of using just the words. We've now got a big document This new on Macbeth which everyone's able to use in the community and has informed other arts projects Including the fister fury in young other Bruce Lee film So there we're able to go from Cantonese to new no using a similar process of cross referencing But it's only because we've got that wellspring of data that we're able to have those conversations because otherwise The work wouldn't be as deep The world wouldn't be as deep So if we get this right If people have greater access to their language data all sorts of things can happen But it needs to be a community informed process and it needs to be about everyone doing it together Not just one or two people sort of blazing ahead and leaving everyone in the trailer dust I've been told to stop so I'll stop I Shortly after that, uh, yeah, rather than have a midlife crisis I thought I'd leave the Education Department and set up my own consultancy to work with languages particularly in Southwest Queensland where Languages are no longer spoken or very few people have that language knowledge so it was important to build up my knowledge and understanding so Because there's a lot of jargon around Linguistic documents nothing against linguists. There's a lot of great linguists out there But there's those those barriers that come up in terms of accessibility for our community language workers Our community members wanting to access collections, whether they be in libraries archives I access or so on so The masters at least gave me that little bit of an introduction to linguistics so that it could help interpret and Repurpose that information that a linguist has collected into a more meaningful Useful way that community can understand and pick it up Then Louise thanks for the shout out before for state library with my role there is indigenous languages Coordinator and a lot of research But the most rewarding part was as we said bringing community in to engage with those collections because unless people are using those Collections they're just items gathering dust in a in a collection and archives somewhere so It was a very much a rapid learning journey because Libraries were places where people find information language information is not always that easy to find So one of the first workshops we had Group there from North Queensland. They said oh you haven't got much on durable language here I said oh, yeah, we've got a fair bit. I've put some out for you there Can't find any of uncle Ernie stuff and I thought well, I know we've got uncle Ernie stuff here Then I thought hang on how have you spelt durable? Because unless they spelt durable in seven different ways They didn't find the 48 items that we had in the collection regarding durable language So we didn't want our communities to have to pass a spelling test to access collections So had so there's another access barrier. So I thought well, how do we how do we? Make things more discoverable without that spelling component in it and fortunately I at this and Osling have the language codes So now if you if you type in hopefully one of those seven different ways into the one search catalog at state library You'll come up with an item or several items and then you'll see a language code. I access language code Y123 Click on that boom up comes the other 48 items around collections and so Fortunately, a lot of the other collecting institutions certainly access but national library state libraries across the nation have all Identified that because how we describe languages isn't necessarily how language community describe it how Linguists describe it doesn't always match up with the terminology that community use So how can we describe items in our catalog whether it's at the archives at the state library so that community can find the information? they need and touching on the the trauma we had a couple of exhibitions and research activities in at the state library that that triggered that because You don't want to trigger trauma by having by opening up the collections there needs to be some sort of Opportunity space to to reflect on that and we're working on that at the archives and certainly with Rose and and the language team there we found 70 items so far or 70 languages sorry in the collection so far and But it's it's very much described at that agency level and so there's information there that isn't For example, it's going through some items Mostly language stuff that's bits and pieces of words Wordless here and there then all of a sudden I see this familiar name and I thought oh hang on Is that my great auntie they're talking about or my great auntie's daughter And it was just this random piece of paper tucked away in a collection item had nothing to do with the rest of the collection item and it was described by my great-aunt's sister-in-law actually Who my other great aunt was named after and she's a 40 year old girl living on a property out the back of St. George and they're making an observation about her moral state and her Whether if she's in a safe space So imagine so I was only sort of connected in a in a roundabout sort of way to that So we have to be really mindful those with that information that that is found How how do we make it a safe space for our communities when they're finding that information using it and I'll stop there My name's bow. I'm a more a worry man from well usually I'm from New South Wales I usually describe it as Northwest New South Wales heading into Queensland, but you know, I'm in Queensland So it's it's Southwest Queensland hitting into New South Wales, but but reflecting on you know that first session this morning I guess the state border really is a legal fiction in some ways and it's just another way That we sort of forced to define ourselves And we really need to sometimes myself as an Aboriginal person Go away and rethink You know the systems that I'm entrenched in as well. So it's it's a it's a powerful thing to to hear that this morning So I'm a more a worry man I'm also work with an organization called first languages Australia So we're the peak body for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander languages So we support the work that's being done by a network of indigenous language centers across the country work that's being done by small community organizations and Individuals and community groups who are working locally on their own languages Last week I was talking at an event in a town the town of parks in Central West, New South Wales And I was there for the opening of the Wiradjuri Nurembang exhibition It's a small permanent exhibition consisting of a couple of glass cabinets in the council building Which also houses the local library and the a small art gallery The exhibition also has a digital element an online presence with some videos pictures and text The exhibition came about because some truly amazing artifacts had been uncovered in old boxes in the local museum From there a group of motivated people from the local Aboriginal community Worked to find the artifacts an appropriate new home where they'd received the respect they deserved and would be available For everyone to see and learn about So reflecting on my conversations I had last week with those people involved and what I'd seen There's three things that stood out to me that I want to briefly mention here First the work was led by a committee made up of local Aboriginal community members Including Wiradjuri knowledge holders and was supported by the the local council library and cultural services manager and a museum consultant Having the right structure with the right people Ensured that the work that was done was done within the correct cultural structures and it aligned with the existing Structures that were there like the local elders group Indigenous Governance is and leadership is key in this space It's the foundation that we need to work from so it's the first thing we need to think about and get right Before we even start work and it's something we need to continue to think about and refresh and rethink as we go along Secondly the committee all had stories to tell me about how laborious some of the meetings they had were Getting down into the minute details They they had meetings about what fonts to use about the exact wording And which objects should go on which side of the cabinet and exactly how long the the video should go for But the detail is important It was through these discussions that key decisions were made things like Deciding to put the Wiradjuri word first in bold big text and then having the English word and the description after It to really highlight the Wiradjuri word So the work needs to be done in the right way with enough time and effort given to ensure that those little details come together Because in the end those little details are just so important and thirdly and finally Everyone that I spoke to on the day was obviously really happy with the outcome It's important to keep in mind the outcome as we go along when we've got a little project like that It's very easy to see what that outcome is when we've got something big Much larger and much more abstract like the language data commons of Australia It can sometimes be a lot harder to articulate that So to that last point when it comes to indigenous language data what we're talking about here Why are we doing this? What's the point of the language data commons of Australia or working to make the data more accessible? For me, I want to see a future where all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people Can learn their language can speak their language and can use their language however they want to if academics access and use the data in line with culturally safe access principles, of course, then that's great But for me the goal is unlocking that information so that the language can be spoken and anyone here Can you hear us? Okay, so we had some slides to show just because we're co-presenting the possible to put them up, but it's okay if not Okay, because we can't hear anyone, what we might do is just get stuck into it So thanks for connecting us online today, it would have been great to be in the room I want to acknowledge that I'm calling in from the land of the Dark and Young people the Central Coast and acknowledge other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the room My name is Kirsten Thorpe, Lauren and I are going to talk a little bit about the work that we're doing at Jambana Research this morning briefly and I guess in the same way that Sandra had done this morning share a few things that we're thinking about in terms of that work My family are Warramai people from Port Stephens in New South Wales, so we also want to acknowledge my family connections to that area So Lauren and I are part of the Indigenous Archives and Data Stewardship Hub at Jambana Research at UTS and I guess one of the things that we bring to this conversation is having come from practice of working in Glam broadly over the past couple of decades and now turn to research because we've seen the failure of the systems and structures of Glam in supporting Indigenous people's sovereignty and self-determination So one of the things that we're looking at is how we can conceptualise and theorise as well as look at practically how the work hits the ground in terms of supporting the management of Indigenous knowledges but also looking at how communities can have greater access to the archives One of the things that we talk about constantly is the need for the work to be obviously relational but also to call out Practices that are extractive and I think one of the challenges in the data space with working with languages is there's often a real desire for people to consume and use material but people also aren't looking at how communities are nurtured and fulfilled and I think that's come up a little bit in the conversations talking about trauma-informed approaches and I guess one thing before I hand over to Lauren that we're also thinking about is how recognition of a lot of the approaches that are taking place at the moment still support the work of the nation state and they're still being funded by federal and state governments in a way that actually doesn't hit the ground and Lauren's going to talk about that in reflection of some of the things that we're doing so one of the things that we would argue is that you know unless we unravel all those processes and start to call attention as Sandra did earlier to the fact that we're living and working on stolen land is that we are still supporting the Australian colonial project if we don't truly refocus our work to support communities so I'm going to hand over to Lauren to sort of touch on some of the key themes that we were thinking about Thanks Kirsten Hi everyone, I'd like to acknowledge the Gadigal people which is where I'm calling in from unceded unceded Gadigal land and I pay my respects to elders past and present Thanks again for having us here online. We're really our apologies. We can't be there in person I'd much prefer to be there in person and chat with you all So my name's Lauren. I work with Kirsten in the Indigenous Archives and Data Stewardship team I'm also doing my PhD at UTS through John Bonner at the moment and my family are Gadigal clan through my mother and Japanese from Nagasaki Prefecture through my father and so Kirsten just kind of set up what some of the priorities and the focuses that we have at our hub a small hub that's based within John Bonner Research Unit and I just want to expand on a couple of those things. I mean I think one thing within the the previous panel that I started to think about is and through some of the questions that I guess we're going to be discussing in this panel is what are we referring to when we think about and we talk about Indigenous data and I just wanted to take and sorry I just want to share the quote from the Maim Nairi Wengara Indigenous Data Sovereignty Collective Maggie Walter's work where they refer to Indigenous data as referring to information or knowledge in any format or any medium which is about or may affect Indigenous peoples both collectively and individually and I just thought it was important to kind of state that because as with some of us have mentioned you know when we start to talk about things like collections and records and information and data you know kind of it can spiral out but you know when Kirsten and I are speaking of this we're speaking of data or knowledge or information collections in a holistic way it's it's it's inclusive of all things that the knowledge of and the stories of and the information of Indigenous peoples whether it's written by them or about them it's still it's an encompassed in that in that description so some of the the priorities that that drive multiple projects and the partnerships that we have through our hub we have a focus on increasing and supporting and advocating for Indigenous rights and records and and some of those those rights include for us it's the paramount right to know and also the right of reply for communities to records but the right to know we consistently come back to both in Kirsten and my in my work around how the imperative for institutions to proactively disclose the collections and the records and the informations that they that they hold you know everything is that is such a important step that so many other things that we talk about cannot happen without that imperative taking place we also focus a lot on finability and accessibility and usability of collections that are held in GLAM but we we focus on that with the the the goal to establish and support archives that move away from the custodial model of the GLAM of GLAM institutions moving away and decentralizing that and moving towards living archives that are sustained on country for communities and and localized accessible collections but also our priorities always come back to as well this long-term focus on archive and information professions and and educational pathways looking at how archive and information studies can be reformed to deliver to deliver on those priorities that Indigenous people and communities have but also the priorities of Indigenous information professionals and GLAM professionals that are working in the sector or will be working in the sector in the future and I know that this is meant to be a really short intro and I've rambled but one of those projects that that we've been working on we work have been working closely with the Cuda Girls Aboriginal Corporation which is a community organization that supports survivors of the Cuda-Mandra Girls Home and we've been working with them to identify accessible usable and community driven and created language resources that can be that can support the language journey of survivors of the Cuda-Mandra Girls Home their descendants and their families so I've been working closely we've been all of us have been working closely with Megan Jared who's a well and Gomorrah woman Camila Rae woman from the Cuda Girls organization and also a community member and we've been considering what the needs are of the Cuda Girls community around priorities for language learning or engaging with languages or sharing languages and that community group of the Cuda Girls network is representative of 12 different language groups so it became really apparent during that process across the planning and the audit and the curation which is still ongoing that there was a lot of language data out Indigenous language data out there but there were when it came down to it when we're when we're putting that against the the specific needs of the Cuda Girls community there were a few accessible usable and appropriate resources that we could we could pull together in the end so the greatest priority in that project was community supported and driven resources and I think yeah a lot of us have been coming back to to to bringing this conversation around obviously this is co co-designed so but I thought that for us the strength of the project was really in that we were working one of the strengths is that we're working on this smaller scale we were working with Cuda Girls org for the Cuda Girls community so I found that that was the strength there but I'm gonna stop and hand it back to person or hand it back to someone else. Thank you Lauren and Kirsten for your linking in. I will open it up to questions but before we go to the floor I want to go to questions that are coming in virtually just in case because we missed one previous oh sorry Clint do you have Nick you have Ned you'll say here come that happen oh shut up and get off sorry. Okay thanks so yeah I'd like to also pay my respects to Wurundjeri people of the Kuala Nation where I live and work. I want to talk really quickly about two projects and the first of them is Ning'an which is a project that's funded by the ARC and it sort of comes from work that Clint discussed and Clint was doing but also I worked on the Nung'a native title claim I was linguist in the Nung'a native title claim and if you've been close to the native title process you'll know that it's vaguely sickening how it works and how little comes out of it but one of the things that doesn't come out of it is a lot of research materials that are sucked into the native title process but then disappear and I saw that happening there and I thought I could work with one of the the really important sets of materials that were used there which was the Daisy Bates collection which is the National Library and so I took one section of the Daisy Bates papers 26,000 pages of papers which are paper they're in the Batty Library the Bar Smith Library the National Library got on paper and I thought well what if we digitize this what if we put it into text and make it findable and accessible and I did that took about eight years to do that because it was only pieced together with bits and pieces of funding and a lot of negotiation with the National Library obviously in doing that but it's a great project I didn't co-design it I designed it but I took it back for road shows through Aboriginal communities in Western Australia once it was in good shape and got very positive feedback for it because people had always tried to grapple with these materials and finally they were able to search them and use them and download them and reuse them for language projects and so on so that led me to think of a platform where this could be done for many different languages and that's what got us to Ning'an and that Ning'an is a word very kidnapped in the in Ning'an that Clint devised for us and that's right so it's and then we we applied for ARC leaf funding we didn't get it the first time we applied we applied again and got it we have an Aboriginal Steering Committee which is very strong in in leading the project we have Aboriginal CIs yeah Clint is one of them and the idea is that we have as many manuscripts of indigenous languages as possible clear the copyright clear the indigenous cultural protocols and get those materials into Ning'an so that they're then accessible for people to work with and these are really going back to the earliest records which are often the records people look to in revitalization projects that's one project the other one is parody sec so parody sec is a project that's been going for 20 years it was established because a number of researchers in Australia recognized that there were tape recordings in Australia of languages of the Pacific Papua New Guinea Southeast Asia that were not being looked after they weren't part of the job of the National Film and Sound Archive National Library or National Archives so they were sitting in people's offices or deceased estates and we started getting those recordings and digitizing them again we had ARC linkage infrastructure funding for that and we slowly started digitizing these tapes and that that's 20 years ago we've now digitized around 7 000 hours of tapes in about 1300 different languages mainly from the region outside Australia but we do also now contain Australian materials as well totally so we've digitized 7 000 hours but we've got born digital of another 7 000 so almost 15 over 15 000 hours of material that's a significant collection but from the point of view of the data commons in Australia we don't have a research data place we have storage all over the place but we don't have a place like so parody sec provides metadata it provides licensing and it provides access to the broader community so it's not looking inwards to the academic community but they're always able to use it but it's really doing outreach we're going out to agencies in the Pacific we're getting tapes from the agencies in the Pacific and digitizing them for them because again nobody's helping them do that and returning the materials to them and we're also returning materials on raspberry pies for local wi-fi transmitters and hard disks and all this kind of things we're looking at how to make this as accessible as possible using the language codes that Des was talking about which really does change the accessibility of this stuff because you're not looking for one language name or another language name you're looking for the code so all of that kind of infrastructure we need for all research in Australia so I think we're modeling that in parody sec but we need to extend that so through the language data commons we'll be able to be looking into collections like nyan like parody sec and all the access conditions and everything are all sorted out and then when people come into those collections they know what they can look at they know who to ask for access to these things and they can get access they don't have to wait for somebody you know a researcher to die to get access to the materials they don't have to go knocking on the door of their office to see if they can get that material out of their filing cabinet so that's it thanks thank you nick i must ask to confess to you i was sitting there thinking through this panel conversation and i was thinking jeez i can't think of what nick said it must and i listened intently to each of each of you presented and i was like what did nick say and i was thinking but you didn't say nothing but but thank you for your contribution my apologies just goes to show that we don't get things right all the time so it's a learning exercise as we evolve forward at this point i also want to just draw to attention that when we talk about indigenous language the conversation thus far has predominantly sort of i've got the sense that it's been very mainland focused and i'm conscious of my deadly little sister over there we need to go beyond the cape into the tourist rates yeah and we need to go to do one so i buy boy you add up all those places too and recognize that on thursday island was corag yeah so there's an extension beyond the mainland that needs to be considered so you're not forgotten sister yes so thank you um lia are there any questions that come from the virtual whatever it is yes so we do have one question from emet at the university of queensland he's asked is that ningan revisualization revitalization sorry digital realization platform a type of citizen science project something amateurs could volunteer to support digitizing these resources good luck with that digivol which is the atlas of living australia's crowdsourcing transcription system and we put manuscripts into there of course the manuscripts have to be cleared in some way and we have a indemnity statement saying you know you can't use this for anything else but it's extremely successful so they have a crowd the hard thing with crowdsourcing is finding the crowd and digivol have done that so we put manuscripts in there we get them transcribed very quickly and then we can put them into the ningan platform so ningan is a platform which accepts different kinds of transcript format so if you've already transcribed documents in microsoft word there's a way to get them into the ningan platform as well so yes it is including crowdsourcing are there any questions from the floor that don't be shy just behind you first i had a question about that's been in my mind um for a while now um um we uh i have a daughter and we don't belong to this country originally uh ethnically um in her school and all the other schools that um we have looked at there is no indigenous language offered for study is this um is there a reason for this because i have come across so many different foreign languages offered at schools primary schools secondary schools but there is not a single one offering indigenous language anyone on the panel want to address that i've got my own view but part of the thing is uh with community languages um i think sandro or rose might have mentioned before about um needing to build it up that language knowledge in the community and say some communities might decide well we don't want it taught in the communities in that school space just yet others um we want to want our community to be strong with it but there are i think about 35 40 schools across queensland that are doing language work so i'm involved with about 12 15 of them out southwest the um it comes down to working the school providing a space a safe cultural space for teaching that language and having that that partnership that conversation with uh with community to get language started so um gungri language program started 20 years ago just after i left the education department that was actually one of my first jobs in my consultancy they had a principal who finally let rdi reen come into the room and have a because every every time there'd be a new principal rdi reen would knock on the door i want to teach language and culture in the school can i do that 2002 finally got a principal said yeah come on in arty let's have a cup of tea over that cup of tea and a couple of teas a couple of pots later would they um asked me to come out and put all of that thinking into a language framework so that it fitted in with the queensland education department curriculum and then later on i revised it to see the national curriculum so it really just started with that conversation and really needs to be owned and managed and driven by the community a lot of skills have that good intention and the good will but they're worried about okay well who's the right people to talk to who's the right person the proper person to to teach that language so this there is some material around on the queensland curriculum assessment authority and also the akara about how to start that conversation and so there is an akara curriculum Australian curriculum for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander languages curriculum framework and Doug Marme in the audience here is one of the um uh one of the uh writers of that so a lot of work went into that and so it's a great framework and the idea of that framework is for the school to sit down with the community and work out what language content goes into that framework how's it going to be taught yeah can i ask a question back to you where are you from originally what part Bombay Bombay how do we say good afternoon good morning to you yeah and and if you were further north say Punjab we say shukrit dhani vad there's an interesting story nick did you want to have a response to why languages and taught in schools terribly racist society in which Aboriginal culture has been demeaned for so long that most people don't think a worthy object of study or or teaching i think that i'm sorry but i think that's probably the reason we're still a way to go yet sister but you're very welcome in this country you need to know that as is your daughter being done around it but it falls short because English is always given prominence because it opens doors to you and Hindi which is a common language is in India is it opens a different set of doors to you as well so parents actually encourage their children to learn these other languages and it's the native languages are spoken very rarely we try our best with our own child to speak our native language but it is Australia Australia is a different different set of circumstances unfortunately sister couple me give a thing i'm a boy letha son i've worked in language projects up in the Torres Strait for many many years now and just your question in regards to the curriculum i just got back from gamma had the privilege of being up there and amongst all the other announcements up there senator linda bernie announced that they will be embedding first nations languages into the curriculum around Australia to but maybe 40 schools at first i think to start off with so that's going to become compulsory as well so that was really welcoming news so there was a lot of focus on language because as we know language is the core of who we are it identifies us it's our very being you know we need language in our lives to be able to move full circle now with our culture and in saying that in the Torres Strait we do embed language in our curriculum we have done so for many many years there has been a bit of challenge there though a couple of my grandfathers and uncle who were language speakers at the done over and the late uncle dimple at the dimple bunny they did a lot of work with the school in regards to setting up that curriculum and after they retired all the work that they had done the education department basically said to them that's our copyright and because they went on then to become consultants you know in their own business and they weren't allowed to use any of the content that they had developed for the education department for our children to learn which was very very sad that those you know this was the other way around copyright now with education so i'm hoping in for in the future they find a middle ground so that you know our families that come into teacher and develop curriculum in education high school or primary school they have the right to that IP because that's their word i mean it belongs to everybody and they're you know basically had to create a whole new set of work so that they could work as consultants independently so i just wanted to say thank you to everybody who's been on the panel it's been wonderful to be here and get all this information that yeah it is it has been an issue in the past with the education department copyright and and IP protection and that they've they've been doing some work with terry janky uh and her group and putting some some i guess more surety um and certainty for community particularly when people such as as as dana and others up there in the Torres Strait who've who've done all that work for for the education department and and um it yeah previously anything done for the department belonged to the department and so fortunately there's been a big shift in that and i don't think it's been actually formally released yet but it should be coming out very soon and it's it's very clear and it's very much aligned with with a lot of terry's work around that use of language that that moral obligations that we've we've heard this morning as well that ip that the copyright protection around their full community members and those language workers as well we have one other question up front before i was just a quick one and i guess it goes to both um nick and to clint but it's about your project-based work i mean i know that the life story a little bit of of paradesic but the work you're doing at the moment you call it a project is it does it have a life you know and and it's funding horizon what does that look like and how does it sustain because it sounds an amazing piece of work the new project is as far as i see it is is the development of a tool which is you know got it's like a swiss army knife really all of these different things you can you can throw it archival language material and it's it's dependent on communities wanting to use those tools and to determine how those tools are used so if we've got language someone's language written down you know basic word list handwritten there's not a lot you can do with it it's sits in an archive somewhere okay so first step is we can digitize it so more people can get access to it who will that's up to what the community says and then it's like well we can use these tools to convert that handwritten text into digital text or we can do crowdsourcing and get get people all involved can just be community people can be the whole world involved in typing that up it's got all these different tools that we can use to to process that that language material to get it to a point where it's more useful for communities and that's all community directed community to community but the tool can be used for any language or any material really and then once all that's done I mean our projects funded forward another couple of years and then IATSIS the Aboriginal or the Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies is going to be the the custodian of that that tool like the material is still going to reside in the collections that it resides in now but that means of hosting it in this other way IATSIS will take charge of and as we know IATSIS is funded into the future and Doug Marmion's there and Sharon Davis there I'm looking at you and I'm deputy chair until 2025 so at least until 2025 I'm going to be pushing for that but that's IATSIS's role it's the backstop you know and ideally we've been talking about you know diversifying community access to collections and where collections are held all that's really tricky because collections themselves can be really ephemeral things that can be pieces of paper that if they're in the wrong place and SIS like even talking to you know friends I got from up your way you know there's this very real threat of climate change and you know if you go to archive that's on an island and the sea rises well you know so we need those backstops we need to think about that but then we also need access and that's where this digital stuff can be useful but then it comes to well where's the server where's the backup for the server IATSIS has solved a lot of those problems in terms of our digital infrastructure but it's about getting that community access happening so that's those local access portals IATSIS is opening a facility are we allowed to announce that we're not we that's been announced a the um Alice thing that's been announced we've opened a facility in Alice Springs well we were opening it a facility in Alice Springs and but what we want to see is that diversity of community access hubs but then also some people got personal access but a lot of people I know got a phone got no credit how you're going to get access to that digital infrastructure so we need to think really hard about that equity of access so it's on that first that equity at that first level in terms of house community informing what's happening but then there's that equity at the end of the line where house community actually getting access to this in a sustainable way and that goes back to those base issues of you know poverty disenfranchisement all that education system all that all those issues big obvious ecosystem. Nick can I just add on to that so from a technical point of view one of the things we've seen a lot is people using content management systems that are owned by some company and they put their stuff into it and then they can't get it out so what we're doing with this platform is building a way so that the platform exists but each piece of data each manuscript has its own metadata with it stored together with it and that has the access conditions and everything licensing information with it so each of those things can exist separate from the platform so that they can then be stored in different places they could go to community archives in in local places and they can use them because they've got all of the metadata with them so they're not just files that are going out there and you say what's on these files but they're actually described if they've got transcripts or transcripts with them as well so this is really looking at what a data commons looks like technically and how we can build that sending out is sort of fitting into that as well. Thank you Nick and I acknowledge that access is being one entity that Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islander people trust that's an important recognition whether they've got it all right it was bit to be determined but they're obviously doing what they have to do from a library an archive a gallery point of view do you have the same level of trust as a thing to think about and why do why does an access have trust at this level when your trust that might be here or you might have better I don't know. There's a whole host of questions that'll come up in the context of roundtable discussions if you've got questions feel free to ask people at little lunch we'll have a 15 minute little lunch because I want to get back on time and I thank the panel members for your contribution thus far we're just peeling back the liars.