 It's endless. If you are always looking for something to say, oh, that's not as good as that. There's an endless supply of it. But if you shift it and say, no, I'm just focusing on, I'm staying focused on my own journey, my own progress. All right. Hello, and welcome to the show, John. Thanks for stopping by. Hey, AJ and John. Great to be with you both. We're excited to have you here. Obviously, the book Better Selling Through Storytelling. On the show here, we talk a lot about storytelling, but first we want to get a little bit of your story and this whole concept of disruption. I know many of our listeners are wondering what is happening with automation, whereas my job going, industries are changing, and you went through it yourself. I did. I had a career at CondiNAS, which publishes all kinds of brands like GQ and Wired and CondiNAS Traveler, and things were going great. There was luxury advertising back in 2000. People were taking money out of their house like an ATM machine and buying all kinds of products they normally couldn't afford, and we got tons of advertising around that. And then 2008, the economy crashed with a mortgage situation and luxury advertising went away with it. And I got laid off after a 15-year career along with all the other outside offices. And I had this moment where I didn't panic and I stayed calm from some lifeguard training I'd had as a youth. And I said to my publisher, don't you want a status report of where the ads are supposed to run and what page and what issue? And she said, well, that'd be great, but everyone else is so angry they're storming out. I said, I'm not going to do that. I watch these people get married and have kids. And that one decision totally impacted my life two years later that I would never have predicted. So what happened was I had to reinvent myself and learn how to sell digital ads. And people said, you know, it's a lot like the silent movie actors. Some could make it to talkies and some didn't. You have to figure out, are you going to make that transition and embrace disruption or stay stuck in the past? So I learned how to sell digital ads once of the Daily Beast, which Tina Brown was editing at the launching. And then two years later, Connie Nass called me back and said, we have a new editor. We now have a website and print. We need someone to do both. Would you ever come back? And I realized, oh, it's because I left on such a good note that I even got the invitation. And I said to myself, if I'm coming back, I'm not coming back with any fear because I've had a lot of fear. What if the magazine goes out? What if I don't make my numbers on and on and on? And I realized I've already had that experience and I'm fine. I thrived. And so when you come back or can even refresh your mindset without it having to leave your job that you don't have fear, all kinds of creative ideas come along. And for me, I ended up doing this project with guest jeans where we celebrated their anniversary with the magazines and an ever winning salesperson of the year two years later after I've gotten laid off. And I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm the same person. And yet I've been on this self-esteem roller coaster of only feeling good if things are going great and bad if things are going down. So that's part of my mission now is to help as many people as possible get off this self-esteem roller coaster. Now you talked a lot fear and this roller coaster. So let's unpack that a little bit more because I think right now the economy is going great for some of us. And this is what's being talked about on the news. It's like, why isn't so-and-so's approval rating up? Everything seems to be going well, but there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of scarcity. And for those of us in our career who are now facing disruptive industries, tech and wondering, well, my parents' career is not what I'm looking forward to. I'm a contractor. I don't get benefits. I don't get all these things. How have you defined that fear to then actually handle it and manage it? Because obviously there had to be fear coming back into that role. Oh, there was fear coming back into that role. And then there was fear when I made the decision to leave and become an entrepreneur. And halfway into that thing, people are like, oh, can you help us with our pitch to get some funding? And I said, sure. And then they go, oh, well, we need introductions to investors. And I said, I don't know any investors. And someone said, listen, if your clients are telling you what they need and are willing to pay for it, figure out a way to do it. So then someone said, well, why don't you start a podcast? You could interview investors and have connections. And I go, why don't I go to the moon? I don't know how to do that. That seemed completely overwhelming. So I thought, all right, what am I afraid of? And this is something I think everybody can look at. For me, I put some faces on it. So I wasn't just this blur of fear. The first fear was the fear of rejection, right? I'm going to call Kevin Harrington up from Shark Tank and say, hey, you want to be on my show? And he's like, well, how many episodes have you done? Can I hit, you know, I'm like, oh, you'd be the first. So, but here's my solution to that first one. Never reject yourself. Because when I was selling, when someone bought another brand versus me, another salesperson could have gotten a yes. Or maybe they're right. Maybe my product isn't good. So when you don't reject yourself or what you're offering, then the next fear I had was, well, the fear of failure. What if I launched this and nobody listens to it? I'll be embarrassed, wasted time and money. And then I just said, wait, failure is just feedback. We keep going as entrepreneurs until we get a zombie idea. So great it won't die. And then the third one that almost stopped me was the fear of the unknown. What mic do I buy? How do I host? I've been a guest, but how do I host? How do I put this up on iTunes? Luckily, I found somebody that's a whole business done for you podcasting. And so the solution of the fear of the unknown is don't go it alone. Yeah. I think with those three faces, the first one rejection, especially having a sales background you have experience in. But for those of us who maybe haven't had that before, and now we're looking at, okay, I'm interviewing for new roles, or I do want to push my idea forward. That is often the scariest one. And especially we've laughed about this on the show, helicopter parents, lawnmower parents, we've been so protected from rejection. And we go to apps because rejection isn't hurt. We look at all these different ways to avoid it. How can we, if we haven't felt it before without experience, get over that fear of rejection? Well, the first party is never reject yourself, even if you get the no. And no now doesn't mean no forever. And then the secret sauce is resilience. Everyone's going to get knocked down in your life, no matter how successful you are. How fast you get back up after you've gotten knocked down is the secret to not taking rejection personally. Is there any mantra that you could give our audience to lean into? Because one of the things that when we have our classes, for instance, failure, it's easy to look at failure as feedback. Right. Because you're not having that term in there. If I told you not to look at the pink elephant or think of the pink elephant, you're going to think of it. So if we look at rejection, we're like, well, we're not going to reject ourselves. It's going to be in there. So what do you recommend for people to lean on when it comes to that very fear? The fear of failure in general? Rejection. Rejection. I think if you're not rejecting yourself and not taking it personally, if you go back to the book, The Four Agreements, it says, don't take anything personally. Don't take rejection personally. It's not a fit. Doesn't mean no forever. I go up against other speakers all the time. They go, look, it's between you and two other people. And sometimes I get them and sometimes I don't. How fast do I let that go and move on to the next versus going over and over in my head about all the negative self-talk? We have to replace that negative self-talk with something I call stacking our moments of certainty. Right. So I encourage people to write down two or three times when you knew you nailed it, interviewed and got the job, asked somebody out on a date, got a yes, whatever it was. Remember those moments of certainty and then remember how it feels. It felt happy, exuberated, confident. And when you associate that, that's what you replace that negative self-talk with. Great. I love the idea of stacking like an air traffic controller. And when it comes to rejecting ourselves, I'm assuming a lot of this is the self-talk that's going on internally. Yes. And before you even get to the pitch, get to the cell, how do you get yourself ready and prepared for that? Well, the superhero pose, which has been out in a big TED talk, which I love, which is you literally stand up, I bring a superhero cape when I give talks. And I have the whole audience stand up with me and we hold this superhero pose, you could be Wonder Woman if you're a woman. And you hold it for two minutes, your testosterone goes up even if you're a woman and your cortisol stress level goes down. So they've done research where doctors do it before surgery. They have you shoot some baskets, then hold the pose for two minutes, you will dunk more baskets afterwards. A lot of people say, okay, John, that's a long time to hold that pose. Stacking moments of certainty while you're holding the pose and that combination will get your confidence to go up. And what I like about stacking the moments of certainty is it's not just for the moments you're down. It's something that you can look at all the time. It helps you feel good. It helps you feel good when you're down or when you're feeling good. So we don't want to just tie it to, oh, I'm feeling down. So let me think about all the moments that I wasn't feeling this way, right? That can be overwhelming. We've talked to numerous successful people on the show and it's the same thing. They visualize success, they think about their successes, they hold on to those more than those rejections. Now you talked about the second face of fear that I think a lot of us are also afraid of. So let's unpack that. How do we overcome that? Well, failure is again, obviously, if you don't get the win or you don't get hired or you don't get the promotion or whatever it is you're trying to do, you think, oh, this failed. We have a choice on how we look at it. It's like, I'm going to keep trying this till I figure out something that does work or I start making it about me. This failed, therefore, I must be a failure as a person or an entrepreneur and have no worth. That's when the negative monkey mind stuff starts coming in. So it's so important that we set our mindset around failure of like, oh, that didn't work. Okay, let me try something else and not get so devastated or attached to the outcome. I tell a story about painting over your masterpiece and Francois Gilot, who's Paloma Picasso's mother and she was with Picasso in the 40s and she was in her 20s and he was in his 60s and it was during the war and I met her and she was showing me all the Picasso paintings and her paintings and she said, this painting up here is the fifth one I did because we had to paint over our paintings because there was a shortage of canvases and the urge to create was so strong that when you're looking at I think the third one underneath there's my favorite. I said, oh my God, no one's ever going to see that. And yet I love to tell that story so that stays alive a little bit. So you have to think of yourself as an artist who has such a need to create that even if you have to paint over your masterpiece and that's where the struggle comes from. I thought this was done. I thought I could move on. Someone else asked me to change something and I'm going to get so defensive about it like, oh, I'm painting over my masterpiece, I guess. I like that. And I think for both the first and the second face of fear, whether it's rejection or failure, it's also due to some scarcity, right? If you haven't failed a lot, then that first failure is going to be incredibly terrifying. And we talk a lot on the show here about trying new things, going out and scratching that itch on hobbies even. And if you fail learning the guitar, you get used to failing in other things. And all of a sudden that one moment that you've put all this pressure on yourself is not as overwhelming. Well, it's about getting out of our comfort zone, isn't it? And I talk about, you know, your comfort zone doesn't say the same. It shrinks if you're not expanding it. And so your point is like, you know what? I don't really like bowling. I'm not good at it, but I'll go to be with my friends. And I don't have to be the best at everything I'm doing. And just allowing yourself to not be the best and not have to be perfect. And I, you know, staying in your comfort zone, I compare it to being in a velvet rut. You're like surrounded yourself in velvet. I never want to feel pain. I never want to feel sadness and never want to think nothing, the perfect temperature all the time or I'm not happy. And you're like, you're never happy because everything has to be your way. The hotel room's not right. The plane isn't big enough, whatever the, you know, as opposed to I'm growing out of my comfort zone. Oh, this is a stretch. I've never been in this situation before. And that's really, if you stay in that velvet rut, it causes you to get depressed guys. People go to therapy going, everything's okay, but I'm still depressed because they're not stretching themselves to try new things. And what we loved in reading the book and looking up your content before the show was this idea of countering perfectionism and coining a different term. And I love this term. What is this term? It was the first time we had encountered it. We were laughing about it on the elevator right up. How great it is because perfectionism, I think everyone talks about it. We've had episodes about it. We've all had our bouts with it. How can we change that word into something more meaningful? Well, the shift is instead of thinking of yourself as a perfectionist and even applauding yourself for being one. And then that just causes you to micromanage everything and never be happy. You can still be motivated. So the new phrase is become a progressionist, which is someone who celebrates their progress. So if you're climbing Mount Everest and literally or as a task and you're halfway up, you have a choice. You can look back and go, look how much progress we've made. Or you can look up and go, look how much further we have to go. We're never going to make it. We're going to make more. It's not going to be perfect. All of that just contributes to paralyzing yourself into not wanting to try something new or feeling if it's not perfect, it's not worth doing. So if you shift that because it's never enough to tell people, don't do this, you always need to replace it with something. So this concept of celebrating your progress, and if you have a support partner, someone you work with, your coach, whatever it is that you guys offer, that that I tell people, open up your meetings, your weekly meetings with, we're going to celebrate progress first before we go into whatever else is on the agenda. Man, it shifts the energy. So like, oh, I'm a progressionist. I'm not going to focus on what didn't, we were further along. You're going to need to go losing weight. You can torture yourself, right? I didn't lose this by, well, I made some progress. I lost one pound instead of 10. Okay. Your choice. What are you going to focus on? It's really important to keep that in perspective. We see it a lot and it just seems that the way some of the younger generations are being raised, they wear this perfectionist thing as a badge of righteousness. And it's when they adhere to it to such a point that they're frozen stiff and moving into anything that they were not comfortable with. Well, unfortunately, I believe social media contributes to that. Yes, it does. We're like, we're going to put the special lens. We can't ever have a candid picture of ourselves and we're 20 or 25 and our skin is perfect anyway. And we're only showing moments of the best moment of that day. And as soon as the picture's over, then we start crying or we get mad or whatever else happens. And so if you start comparing yourself to other people's social media posts, like, I'm not on that trip. I'm not at that party. That can cause depression too. So it's just work on your own progress and let go of everyone else has a perfect life, especially with the holiday season. People can get depressed around that. It's endless. If you are always looking for something to say, oh, I'm not as good as that. There's an endless supply of it. But if you shift it and say, no, I'm just focusing on, I'm staying focused on my own journey, my own progress. And for us, what we tell all of our clients and even buy journals for our clients who come through the programs is this idea of actually just writing down the journey because it's so easy to be focused on the peak up ahead, right, using your analogy of climbing Mount Everest and so focused on that endpoint that you don't even think to look back. You don't even think about how far you've come. And if you have a regular practice of journaling of your thoughts and feelings, what you've accomplished, no matter how small it is, that small victory along the way and the difference over time is tracked for you to look back and very easily see all of that progress and not be chasing the perfection. Now, when we are trying to start the journey, that fear of unknown, that third face is often the toughest and your antidote for that is to collaborate. But to collaborate, we got to tell a story. We got to get people energized to join our team. So obviously pitching our ideas, we talk about this on the show. And even if you're not in sales, we're always pitching our thoughts to others. What's your formula to tell that story that brings on collaboration, gets people on your team? You have to first tell your own story, to tell yourself by telling your story of origin. Here's why I'm so passionate about this. Here's my vision. Does this sound like the kind of journey you'd like to go on with me? Then we're going to create this company. In this case, Art of the Charm has its own brand, has a logo. Here's the story of origin for Art of the Charm. So you each have your own individual stories, how you met and your own backgrounds. Then you have Art of the Charm as a story. And then you get into the story of what it's like if you join and start working with you. And most people make the mistake and jump right into, here's the program. And so if you tell your story, then tell the company story, even if you're just a one person company, and then tell the story of someone else you've helped who is just like this other person, so they see themselves in the story. And then the closing is just, do you want to go on that journey with us? Right. Oh, love it. It's so much more easy for the person on the other end to follow along with. It's like, okay, well, I'm starting to understand John a little bit more and how I'm starting to get his why. And oh, wow, we can help these other people too. I'm getting excited just hearing it. Yes. You know, we're wired for storytelling. Back in the campfire days, people sit around the globe, fires and told stories. And now we sit around the globe PowerPoints in the corporate America. But people remember stories. When I work with clients and they say, oh, it's between us and two other competitors in every industry, lawyers, architects, you name it. And they go, we hope we go last, even in a job interview. Oh, try to go last because whoever's last is memorable. I'm like, only if no one's telling a good story, you can be first and tell a great story and stories make you memorable. And most people forget half of what you say the minute you walk out the door, but they're not going to forget the story. So the better story teller, you become the more successful you are. It's that simple. And dovetailing on that, people love sharing stories. Oh my gosh, that's when the brand ambassadors kick in. Yeah. Survival marketing is just no more than just someone going, this is really funny or interesting or cool if I share it. And when other people share your story, it's golden. So tell a story worth sharing. Exactly. And I think for those of us who, you know, sort of are a little humble and we don't like to tell that story. Johnny and I were laughing earlier, you know, we fall in that camp too. Sometimes we are the perfectionists. We deprecate ourselves a little bit. How can we break out of that humility to tell the compelling story? Well, my first observation of both of you, both from listening and watching over the years and being with you now is that's your secret sauce. And so I want to encourage everyone listening and watching, figure out what your secret sauce is. That's who you are as a person and who you are as a brand. Don't try to change that because remember if people, if you were too slick and too confident and too arrogant and not humble, then people were like, well, that's not, they don't understand. They've never been in my shoes. But the fact that you're successful and still humble, people go, oh, it's not an either or I can be both. Right. Show me how to do that, please. Where do I become part of the art of the charm tribe? So that's, I would tell you to keep it and not look at it as a negative but as an attractive magnet that people can relate to. I think in general, for me at least in telling that story, I see the other people who are sort of the braggadocious over the top and I see them getting attention and views. And there is a pull of moving that direction, but it doesn't feel genuine to me. It's not how I want to position myself in conversation with people or even on the website. The more authentic we are, the more we attract the right people and who we say no to is just as important as who we say yes to for joining our tribes. So just because somebody wants to work with you doesn't mean you should let them. Right. And it's sometimes hard, especially when you're starting out to say no to anybody, but I'm telling you those clients will torture you, they'll never be happy, they'll want to reef on and on and on. It's not familiar? Yes. So stay true to who you are and trust that almost like from a quantum physics standpoint, that energetically those people will find you and it be without you having to shout. That's the joy of storytelling. You don't have to push, which is the old way of doing everything. Push, push, push. Pull people in with a good story and become magnetic and ultimately irresistible. I think that's what makes it difficult for a lot of people who are starting out is they feel alone, right? That they're the only ones that they're in this ocean, they're swimming, they're trying to make something of the situation. Yes. And when somebody does reach out, it's like, oh my God, I'm not going to be alone. All right, let's bring them in. But if they're the wrong people, they're not going to be a life raft, they're going to be an anchor. That's a great analogy right there. If I was tweeting out something from the show, that's what I would tweet. We're going to hold you to that. That's it. But that is an important concept and we've fallen into that same problem in growing, as Johnny likes to call it, our little pirate ship here. We've let some people aboard who don't share in the values, who want to make it about themselves, who ultimately aren't a good fit. But in the beginning, when you're starting out, it's all hands on deck. You know, hey, this person wants to grab a shovel and help us. Great, come on in. So it sounds like getting deeper into your own story allows you to have the wherewithal to say no to someone, to say, no, this is not a good fit. Yes. And even brand positioning, because most of your people probably have a website of some sort. And if you are very clear, who this is for and who this is not for. Yeah, I think you're not afraid to do that. Yeah, if you're not coachable, if you're not open to change, if you're struggling to pay your rent, this is not for you. Well, a lot of people listening to the show are like, bootcamp. That sounds intimidating. It's like, well, our training is rigorous. It is intense, but it's purposeful because the results that you want have to come from putting in the hard work, have to come from some intensity. It's not a band aid. When we're talking about core skills, which is what we're doing here, socializing, communicating, selling our story and our vision. That's not something that you could just, oh, tweak this and just flip a couple switches and boom, you're a different person. I think it also goes to say why we certainly attract that element. I mean, one of the first conversations that the guys have when they get to bootcamp is, what's your workout routine? What's your diet? These are very disciplined, ready to go, top performers who already have so much already accomplished in their life and now they want a leg up in this area. So they come ready and they're talking about rigorous. I mean, they're ready to get into it. Yeah. Some of our clients are far more rigorous than us, intimidating at times, but the flip side of that is understanding that even the most successful seek coaching to seek that extra 1% that edge. Well, there's a great book out called 212 Degrees and water gets hot all the way to 211 and then at 212, it starts boiling, becomes steamed and steam can move the engine. And so many of us get all the way up to 211 and dial down the heat. We don't know how close we are to getting the tipping point to happen. One more phone call, one more email, whatever it is that you're working on. So this need to be rigorous and have someone like the two of you watching and coaching and saying, don't give up. You're closer than you think. And I think that's a beautiful analogy because as intimidating as it may sound, there are simple fixes that are just outside of your view. We call them blind spots. And unfortunately in this realm, whether it's pitching your ideas or storytelling, most of us are not going to receive clear negative feedback that we can use to improve. We're going to see people tuning out. We're going to see people not answering our call. We're going to see people not investing, but they're not going to tell us why. They don't. Well, two things on that. It's very hard to see the outside of the label when you're inside the bottle. So you guys are outside the bottle. You can tell people here's where the disconnect is while you're not growing faster. And then a lot of people have this premise that, you know, if you get to know me, I give you a bunch of information, then you'll like me and trust. We hear all the time, oh, you need to get people to know, like and trust you. I completely flipped that on its ear. I said, the order's all wrong. We have to start at the gut. The trust level goes first. You know, in fact, the handshake came about to show you didn't have a weapon in your hand. It's a fight or flight response. People need to feel safe. I contact some, all that's going on, some social proof. Then it moves from the gut to the heart. Do I like you? You know, the best way to get your likability factor up is to use empathy. The better you can show you understand somebody's problem, the better they think you have their solution. And then it moves to the head. And that's where the storytelling really comes in. And it's an unspoken question. These are all unspoken. Do I trust you? Do I like you? And then the third question in the people's head is, will this work for me? How great that you helped all these other people. But if I can't see myself in that story, I'm still not going to say yes. I'm not going to answer any of, I'm not going to tell you any of this is going on. And you're not going to know why I'm not saying yes to what you're offering. But I promise you, it's one of those three things. So start at the gut, work to the head, and then get to the head and tell a story where people can see themselves in it. And you too are Yoda or the Sherpa of Mount Everest. And when they see that, they're going to just be so begging to be part of this. And that's one of the first exercises we do in our intensive program is we film them. Because a lot of what you're talking about gut level trust things, it's body language. It's the second you walk in the door that these, these neurons are firing and the other person and they're saying, I can trust this guy or no, I don't think so. Right. And then if you can flip that gut switch first, everything else becomes a lot easier. But if you wait till the end to build the trust and prove it to them, you're doing it all wrong. And whether it's pitching or even just trying to build a relationship. And we talk about that all the time with our fans of the show, we're like, oh, man, I got catfish or I go on this date. It was not who I thought. And it's like, well, that's the power of learning the social skills to be able to relate to people in real life and not rely on fake signals online of trust and rely on your gut through technology, which is not going to be as accurate. Well, just saying hello to both of you. Insta-Eye Contact referenced our mutual great friend, Brandt. So all of that starts kicking in and you're like, oh, okay, maybe I like this guy a little bit. At least I think I can trust him now. I've got two points of reference. He's looking me in the eye and we know somebody in common. Okay. Oh, and he's also listened to the show before. So all that preparation you do before you walk in and all the preparation you did for this interview, never underestimate that as a sign of respect and trust. Yeah. And it certainly allows the other person to feel like, hey, I'm in the right place. Right? Yes. You don't want to be in a situation where you're coming at it logically and you're trying to force your story. You got to build that trust. Well, nobody buys anything logically anyway, or hires anybody or goes on a date with anybody logically. It's all emotion. If you go buy a Ferrari, I promise you they don't talk about miles per gallon. The flip side is when someone's like, why'd you buy the Ferrari? Then you get in logical explanation. You back it up with logic till the cows come home? Yeah. But in that emotional reason? Financing all the numbers work. No, you want the top down. You want the people looking at you on the side of the street. This is going to feel great. It's emotional. I'm going to feel sexy. I'm going to feel successful. Whatever the feeling is, tap into that first and then the rest will come. Now, what's going on in terms of the podcast that you're doing? You mentioned, obviously, it gave you a leg up and a door with investors. What is the underlying message that you're preaching on your show? Tell stories. That storytelling is the ultimate way to have a successful pitch, which is the name of the show. I've done over 200 episodes and originally, I was helping people through investor relationships, but now it's even pivoted. The title still works. This is also something for everybody. Come up with a brand or a title that is flexible enough should you decide to change. Now, it's focused on me as a speaker. Part of the job, like an actor, is you have to get speaking agents. They all are entrepreneurs, they're bureaus, and they have their own story. Speakers like actors are inundating them, represent me, book me, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Now that I have a podcast, and there's a gentleman named Bernie Swain who started the Washington Speakers Bureau, he's had all the former presidents, and Tom broke on big. He wrote a book on entrepreneurship, and he reached out to me and said, can I be on your show? I'm like, oh my God, of course you can. And so I heard his story, and then I could approach other speaking bureaus and say, would you like to come on my podcast? I've had Bernie Swain who's like one of the big ones, and they're like, my whole business model's built on his. Yes. And then guess what? They get to trust, like, and know me, and I'm creating something of value for them, and they decide to represent me, and we're off to the races and distinguishing myself from all the other speakers out there. And exactly that, building that personal brand. And in researching for the show, I was looking, I was like, I'm not seeing any investors on this guest list. It makes complete sense that, and we much did the same thing, pivoted from just dating and romantic relationships to overall communication and the social skills necessary to advance in life. But a lot of us, we start small, right? So how did you have the foresight of jumping in, facing those three fears, and being like, hey, this could be something even bigger? I think you just have a leap of faith in yourself and realize, you know what, I've been successful in other things. I may or may not be successful at this, but I'm going to give it my all. And that commitment to giving it your all, even if you don't know the outcome and it's not certain that it's going to work, and is this the right thing, and why isn't getting the traction I want? But then there's a tipping point in every relationship and in every project when it just starts to take on a new life. And former guests are saying, hey, you should interview so and so. And now I'm no longer trying to find guests. And then that momentum continues, and then it gets posted on something. It's one of the things I love doing. I'm so curious about people. It fascinates me to hear everyone's story of origin. And sometimes, I can listen to someone describe something and give them a perspective, which is what you do with all your clients. I was interviewing a guy in Copenhagen that has created a platform to help speakers deal with loneliness on the road. And I thought, what a great premise. And he said, yeah, you're on stage, you're happy, everyone's cheering, and then you're in your hotel room alone. He's created a platform for other speakers to find each other in the city and say, hey, you want to grab dinner tonight, so you're not alone on the road the whole time. I said, you've used technology to solve loneliness. That's your tagline. He's like, I never thought of it like that. So the creativity of in the moment and in the flow of taking my skill set of helping people figure out what their story is and using it for marketing purposes, it happens in the moment on the podcast. And it's great. Encourage everyone to start creating, whether it's the blog they've been thinking about or the podcast, you know, we get letters all the time of like, you guys are so big now. I wish I would have started 13 years ago. Oh, yes, the windows closed. No one else can do this. There's no one else. Yeah. And there's there's so many other great lessons to building something, creating something, and the relationships come with that. And this has opened so many doors for us over the last 13 years, being behind the scenes, being on toolbox episodes now hosting. And through all of that, the relationships have been the most powerful. Yes, it's great to come up here and have a great conversation, but to then turn around and have guests that we got an amazing conversation and got to know each other and then, oh, look at all these other opportunities that come out of it. And I think people play small. They don't think about, oh, this could be great. And oftentimes they go, well, someone else is already doing it better. So I'm just going to quit now. I think it's difficult to grasp the actual numbers that you're dealing with virtually. Like, if you're in a small town and there's already three hardware stores and you're like, okay, well, why should I be opening another one? Got it. But we're not dealing with a few thousand people. We are dealing in the billions who are online and who are all looking for that person or that thing that relates specifically to them. And the only way we're going to be able to get there is by you sharing that story. So it latches on pulls them in. And the other thing I would add to that is don't expect something to make you money right away and really fast or you're not going to put any time and effort into a word that's a blog or a podcast or anything. Create the content. I tell people, I'm creating, if you don't like to write, I happen to like to write, but I turn my transcripts into an article on LinkedIn every week. So I'm creating an article without writing a word. And I turned my podcast into a book. And Tim Ferriss did the same thing. You take 10 of your favorite guests. They have a big social media following. They promote the book because they're in it. Boom. So there's lots of ways to monetize and repurpose content that I think can really help people. As long as you're making the content. Yes. You're getting bored. You're actually doing it. You're throwing yourself in. And you know, I laugh now at our first episodes from a decade and months ago. They weren't good. Anytime you start something, you're not going to be good. That should not be the intimidation factor. You don't have to be perfect on your first episode. And the other thing is you don't have to be an expert. We started the show certainly not as experts, just wanting to get that information and seeking it from others. Our secret sauce was, well, we're learning along with the audience and building trust that way. And a lot of people come in and they're like, well, I have to be the expert. I have to know all this stuff before I could hit record. People gravitate towards great stories, curiosity and that knowledge that you can pull out of the guest. That's just as powerful as your knowledge. Yes. Well, you're basically having a masterclass every episode. I would never have met some of the people and likewise for you. But this, again, you started off going along with the journey, which is my earlier point of have people see themselves in your story. If you guys came on and said, we've never been rejected on a date. We have a waiting list of women wanting to go out with us. And if that's not you, then this isn't for you. So you made it relatable. Yes, we're cool and hip and attractive, but we still have our own challenges. People go, you do because again, people project all this stuff on other people. Your life looks so perfect and easy. I could never do that. So it's up to us to break down that wall and be vulnerable and say, listen, when I got laid off, it was like a kick to my gut. I was scared. I didn't know what was next, but I just keep going and we get back up fast. And you're like, oh, okay, well then maybe if you did it, I could get back up fast as opposed to wallowing in the scared feelings. And I think that resiliency piece that you touched on earlier, when you're throwing yourself in multiple arenas, you build that resiliency because you now have some data, some experience points to draw from previously. It's like when we were training for the half marathon, not really running before that, I was like, man, this sounds like an impossible task. And I started thinking about, well, we built the academy from scratch. We taught ourselves how to edit video because we had to. We have pushed through those dips, those moments where things aren't working, things are difficult. The other side, 212 degrees, it's quite nice. It's good to have mastered that. And I think when we sell ourselves short and we stop short of that and we don't get other people on board and inspired, we really are doing ourselves a disservice. Start it, push it, create it, build it and people will find it. Well, the other thing is as well, we've made it a habit not to talk about things that we don't know about. And so that is very powerful because people are like, well, at least I know they're not going to bullshit me. Yeah. Aren't you an artificial intelligence expert? Yeah. And that's very important in and of itself. We were just, we just had one of our mastermind get togethers with our clients. One of the guys was asking me about investing in property and I was like, listen, I don't make it a habit of talking about things I don't know about. But I can point you to a couple guys in this room who certainly know. That's the respect, right? Not pretending to have all the answers is what people go, oh, then I even trust you more. I have a short story on resilience that I think might land with everybody. When I was giving my TEDx talk, the speaker before me is a woman named Bonnie St. John. And she lost the lower half of her left leg at 12 years old. And then in her 20s, she went on to compete in the Paralympics downhill skiing wearing a prosthetic leg. So she's standing on stage with the metals around her neck and a skirt so you can see the prosthetic leg. And I'm thinking in my head, oh, this is who I have to follow. Okay. Where's that moment of certainty where those superhero poses? But I was so drawn into her story and she's lovely. So she said, in the races, you have to ski down two mountains and they take the combined time of both and that's how they decide who wins. So the first mountain, everyone skiing down, she's the fastest. Boom, great. Next mountain is very icy and everybody's falling. And sure enough, she skis down, she falls too. And then they said, oh, you came in second place. While you were the fastest skier on the first mountain, you were not the fastest person to get up after you fell. And that's her whole thing of resilience. How fast do we get back up when we're all going to fall? And it just really helps me bring that point home through her story and also not being intimidated by following somebody. I think when we start to stretch ourselves out of the comfort zone, like, oh, okay, this is the league I'm in now. And not have that imposter syndrome come up. I'm guessing you have to work with clients on that sometimes, right? Yeah, we talk a lot about limiting beliefs. And unfortunately, we hold on to these childhood experiences. And of course, much like we're talking about how viral stories are and how we can use stories, we also assimilate our own stories and build up our own narratives. And they can become a weight on our shoulders that keeps us from trying things or approaching people or striking up a conversation or following up with someone. So a lot of the week is spent looking at, okay, what is the origin story for this belief of yours? We've shown you the data and evidence that that's not you. You've now experienced success in this area. You're seeing all the results. So where is this origin story coming from? And could there be some other data behind it or another perspective that maybe you hadn't thought of? Nice. And in all those moments where, you know, you're looking at it, you're saying, well, I can't follow her. I can't believe it. You get off stage, you finish it, you're like, wow, I'm in company with her. I've made it. So it's that flip, but it takes practice and some experience looking at things differently. It's everything is your willingness to be out of your comfort zone. And you're going to have a moment where you go, am I supposed to be here or not? I remember I was hired to speak at the Coca-Cola CMO Summit, and I was looking at the list of the other speakers that day, and it was like, Harvard graduates, New York Times bestsellers. And I'm thinking, I did not go to Harvard. My book is not on the New York Times bestseller. She's going to get fired for hiring me. And I had to talk myself off the ledge. I'm like, well, she's been doing this a long time. Let's trust that she knows what she's doing. She's seen your clip, your demo reel. She must saw something in there. And then here's the aha moment that hopefully this can help people, is I thought, when I'm listening to a speaker, do I care where they went to school? Do I care how many books they sold? No. I care about how they make me feel. So that's how I got through that momentary imposter syndrome before I had to speak. And there's, you can also look at it. Let's just say, worst case scenario, she was drunk. She hired drunk people. But guess what? You're in that room. You have this opportunity. How many other people are on the outside? Wish they were in that room. So let's, you know, let's turn a crisis into something great here. Let's knock this out of the park. So, I mean, there's many ways to flip it where you could come out victorious, but you're going to have to do some brainwork in order to get there and then believe it, believe it for yourself. I remember when we had our first project with the military. So, one of the things Johnny and I have been in the classroom now for 10 plus years and a lot of times the students that come through, we get a backstory, but not a crazy in-depth backstory. We want to hear it from them. We don't want to hear the conversation that one of our other team members had with them. And there was this, we knew this group of military guys were coming through. We didn't have any other context than, oh, just some military guys. And we've had some veterans before. These are some badass guys sitting on the couch and we're getting into their story and they're like green berets, special operations. They've been in all this theater of war and we're sitting here going, how are we the ones teaching you? Like we should be sitting on the couch and you should be teaching us how to be a leader. But having come out the other side of that experience, now we go into these calls and we laugh. We're like, we got this. We've worked with this department. We've been in this situation. We've worked with the state department. All those little experiences start to build this confidence that we're talking about. You're stacking your moments of certainty from your previous experience. Yeah. And in those moments of doubt, it's great to be like, hey, we've already been here before. And in those moments where we'd accomplished something to remind ourselves to, hey, this is just another one of those notches to give us that momentum. So to go on to what we were saying about, and I love this, it was the point of having that being in that position. So you were asked to be there. You're in there. And rather than having the panic moment that it's not going to help anything, right? It's flipping out going to help me in this situation. No. Okay. What will help me in this situation? How about if I try to do the best job that I possibly can and see how far that gets me? And you'll be very surprised because if you were invited in that room and you do the best job you can, that's all they were asking for you to do. Yeah. And it turned out great. I felt confident. The feedback was great. I personalized my talk and referenced some of the people in the audience and made everything about them and remembered people's names. And they said, how did you learn all that from just having conversations with the audience before you went up there? You really nailed it. I'm like, that's great. That's a skill I have that you don't need to go to Harvard to get and you don't need to sell X number of books to get. And that's what they wanted. They wanted that warmth and connection. And I've had a experience speaking as well where I went in, I prepped, practice was ready, had some tech issues and I internally was shaken. And I remember getting off stage feeling like, man, that did not go well. And then getting the feedback from the audience about how amazing the talk was. And I was like, so many times we're in that situation where we're feeling the fight or flight response. We're feeling the emotions, but it's not outward. It's not what other people are picking up on when you have a compelling story, when you're able to speak clearly and to what they want to hear. That other stuff that you're feeling internally, imposter syndrome, nervousness, how can I follow this person? You come out the flip side and you're like, not only did I do it, but I'm getting invited back. I'm getting more opportunities because of it. And that's, I think, as we've been talking about this whole show is pushing through those moments where we're putting these walls around ourselves that are imaginary and we're putting our own self perspective above what other people are saying about us or viewing us. And if you're giving a talk, the audience doesn't know if you forgot something or not, or if there's a slide that's not playing right or a video that didn't go as long as they're along with you for the ride. And as long as you're fine, they're fine. And if you're in your head worrying about people like me or this isn't going perfectly, therefore the whole thing's going to crash, it's just like hit the reset button. Just because a mistake happened doesn't mean the whole day is ruined. Doesn't mean the whole talk is ruined. Oh, that didn't work. Next. The resilience kicks in when the tech problems happen. Storytelling is such an important skill. It's one of the biggest tools that we use in the podcast format, sharing our story in the classroom to get people to resonate and learn everything that we're trying to absorb. If we sat up there and just drew some diagrams and threw up some charts, you'll zone out. And if you think back to all of your professors from school that you enjoyed, they all had stories to share. So untapping your potential to tell stories, we all have it in us. And I love how the book delves deeply into that idea of like, all you got to do is find a starting point for that story, follow the formula that's worked for Hollywood, that's worked for others, and you're going to find the magic in your story without having to fake it. Yeah, I mean, we can go over really quick if you want the four steps so everyone can leave here becoming a master storyteller. Because let me tell you, people love to hear your story. It's entertaining usually or informative beyond that. So one of my clients, Martin, I had him write down stacking moments of certainty. And he said, wow, the thing that really jumps out was, you know, I grew up in South America, but I grew up in the Netherlands, so I was born in South America, but my parents took me to Netherlands right afterwards. But when I turned 18, they took me back to South America and dropped me off naked in the Amazon jungle to survive for two weeks because in my culture, that's the right of passage into manhood. I said, great, okay, that's a good story. Let's work on it. I'm like, what did you learn in the Amazon jungle? He goes, well, I learned how to focus and pivot and persevere. I said, great, we're going to take those lessons from the Amazon jungle to the concrete jungle of being an entrepreneur. And when he had that story practiced in Hone, he got a startup funded because the investor said, hey, we're going to put our money on the Amazon jungle guy. He can survive anything in business. So that's a short little story. So the four elements of it are exposition. You have to paint the picture when you tell a story. Who, what, where, when, right? So we know where he is in the Amazon jungle. We also know why he's there. I said, Martin, if you don't say that's a right of passage in your culture, it sounds like child abuse. So give enough exposition, but not too little and not too much. Then the problem is clearly he's naked there for two weeks. The solution is he learns these life lessons. And then this is the secret to a really great story, the resolution. Most people forget that. What happened to him after that? Well, he got a startup funded because the investors loved that story so much. So that's the four steps. And if you start telling a story and use those four things going, oh, wait a minute, I went right to the problem. I didn't paint the picture. Or wait a minute, I didn't tell the resolution at the end of that story. It's night and day changing. And there's some context that all of us can use that have happened in our lives to generate those stories. And I know for a lot of us thinking about stories from our past can be overwhelming. And we've talked about the hero's journey, but you talk about really four ways that we can find that story and the origin story being one of them, right? And that is a perfect example of, okay, who are you, where are you from? What are the three other ones that we can use? Well, there's genres of storytelling that, as you said, movie studios use. And even brands are using it. So the rags to riches is one. That's clearly Cinderella, you know, sitting in the corner. And, you know, Johnny Walker Scotch is a clear brand that used to be this poor Scottish farmer. Now he's successful Johnny Walker. When I was talking to the Coca Cola people, they had Aunt Ann's pretzels in the audience. And I said, what's your story of origin? I go, where did this all? She started selling a pretzel in a farmer's market. And now it's in malls and airports. That's rags to riches. Yeah. Then the second is this quest, right? You know, and that's Lord of the Rings. Man, that whole thing is about find that ring going on this journey, never giving up. And, you know, brands like Lexus, their tagline used to be the pursuit of perfection. We're on this journey. We know we're never going to get there, but it's an endless pursuit. The next one is the concept of rebirth. And rebirth is, it's a wonderful life. And you're thinking, oh, you know, what would happen if I hit the reset? Prudential uses this all the time. They said, your retirement is not just more middle age. It's a rebirth. It's your third act. And then the fourth one is the choice you make to either stay home or go on an adventure. Well, that's the Wizard of Oz. You know, had Dorothy listened to NEM and went in the cellar, there'd be no story. But she went on this adventure. And then remember, she came home and told everybody about it. And so Expedia uses this. Leave home, book your trip on Expedia, and then have this amazing adventure and then come back and tell all your friends. So now you go, wow, movies are using this, brands are using this. Maybe just maybe I should pick one of these genres to tell my story. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can our audience find your fantastic podcast and get a copy of your great book? Well, if anybody texts the word pitch, P-I-T-C-H, you have to really emphasize the P, to the word 66866, they can get a free sneak peek of my book. And if you can't remember any of the book title or my name, just Google the pitch whisperer and all my content shows up. Thank you so much for joining us. And we're excited to share our story after this and get some feedback. Yes. Thanks for having me, John and AJ.