 I'm going to pull that out now. Get out of your butts. Most of you also just got to see the first crowd bag lunch with Hubein, and I want to remind you that his country and the whole country from Cuba will be performing tomorrow up at the Hilltop Montessori School in their space at 11. See what you just heard about. So to transition into our next interview, we're even interspersing what we're calling our bursts in the tradition of interviews or within the interviews so that we can continue to meld together the dialogue with the arts. So in that spirit, are they all the loves and can we're attached here to perform a little cranky? We have this message, I think it's a box store. Well good afternoon, and now it's up to us three little fishies here. Tough act to follow. I'm the former arts editor of the Brattleboro Reformer. I'm now the executive director of the very honored and privileged to have been asked by Sanglass to help facilitate these conversations, hopefully for all of you as well. I'm here now today with Kimi Maeda, the creator of the piece Bend, which has festival, and we'll talk more about that with her. And also here with Julie Lichter of Springfield Mass and has some other projects to talk about. We'll find out what you do as well. So our general generations and generations of believe it at that and we'll explore that idea. So maybe we could start by having folks here about Bend and how it came about and what you were hoping to explore. This is a live performance piece where I do sand drawing on the floor, but I have live feed video of the sand drawing, but I combine that with the projection internment camps. And sorry, what was the other question? And the story in Mandarin? Yeah, so the story is about my father and his experience. He was nine years old when he had to go to the Japanese-American internment camp in Poston, Arizona and in the same sculptor who voluntarily went to the camp. He thought it was the best way for him to help the Japanese-Americans. He didn't actually have to go because he was based in the East Coast at the time he was in California, but he wasn't required. And so there's a big part about memory and forgetting I guess and especially now so many of the survivors of the internment camps are dying. My dad is 82, so he was nine, he's 82 now and so we're losing those stories now. Julie, a little bit about what you do and then we'll delve a little deeper. Okay, I collaborate with young people in Springfield, young adults between the ages of 15 and to create performances that weave together personal narratives and themes that bring in larger systemic issues. But specifically the young people identify as first generation and we use that term to mean the first in their families to be growing up in this country, the first to be speaking English in their families. It could be the first in their families to be graduating from high school or going to college, the first in their families to not be incarcerated in several generations, the first in their families to be a Muslim feminist, the first in their family to be an artist. So really what began as immigrants and refugees expanded will be in anywhere from five to eight languages and we do. If I could talk a little bit about that and maybe have a little talk with me. So for me personally I came into this work as an artist but kept, could not get away, which I look at the world, which is as the daughter of a Holocaust survivor, someone who was in France between the ages of five and ten years old. And I grew up with my mother's stories and really what, how that happened as an artist is that I really, I think I really identified, I was able to identify with oppression, oppressions from a very young age, especially racism in this country. And so all the work that I strive to identify those oppressions but also what I feel is to achieve a sense of interconnectedness. So for Kimi, I was so intrigued by your choosing the two stories of your father and Nuguchi to pass through a band. If you could tell me about how that sort of came to you as something and why you made that choice as an art historian. Yeah, my father was an art historian and he started out studying Chinese landscape painting but because that's what you did then, not many people were studying Japanese-American or Japanese in his career. He did start studying Nuguchi and was really fascinated by this man that he remembers seeing in the camp. Nuguchi would have been in his mid-thirties. My dad would have been nine, so it's not like him and his work. And never finished it. And so in some ways I think of this piece as what my dad started and try to bring some conclusions. Nuguchi's life really fascinating. His whole family going back and forth from Japan to America, his mother was Irish-American, had an affair with this Japanese and had this baby. Nuguchi's father would have left at that point but she made the decision to go to Japan, which is kind of Isamu. Isamu's dad had already formed this other family with another woman so it was a very complicated relationship. But it was a really interesting character and then Nuguchi's father was also an interesting character. He was a poet. He came to America when he was a young man and he learned from these American poets and was writing in English, not in Japanese actually, not writing in Japanese but in English. And then he went back to Japan where he became famous because he was famous in America. So it's this funny sort of back and forth kind of thing. And then Isamu's wife even was surely but she was actually a Chinese film star and then became a Japanese film star and was actually in American movies as well. But she had trouble after World War II because the Japanese thought she was a spy. So all of these Nuguchi's life really interesting because I also feel, or I felt growing up kind of in between two different cultures. You know, I grew up in New England in the end of two Asian kids and my family adopted Korean. So, you know, in some ways I felt like I didn't belong there but then when my mom would take, we'd go to Japan every other summer and I definitely did not belong there. I find this idea of being in between two different places really interesting. Thank you. Could you put that into that otherness? In an email you said that you had just been at the Alternative Roots conference and that was something that had sort of roiled up with you. If you could just talk about that. You know, obviously you grew up in New England and we would think that that may not be something that you would deal with so much. Yeah, there weren't a lot of people that looked like me in New England. So, yeah, it's important in my work. It's true all the time and I think that in a way I felt like when I was growing up like a lot of theater productions that I would think that I've come to this place where I'm trying to create my own stories and tell things from the way that I've seen things. So, it's listening to the Mexicans the other day. I think it's what I find so great about puppetry, especially is that through the art of puppetry. And Bend is part of a trilogy of pieces. Could you talk about the other legs of the school there? The first two pieces are more shadow puppet based and they're all still about family but the first piece is more about my mom's journey from Japan to America. She's funny in the Japanese-American community. First generation is Issei or the ones who came over from Japan. So, she's Issei. And the second piece, it's more just a nostalgic piece about home and what home means, which I think I've handled with a lot. I do feel very much that New England is my home but what exactly is that? And I think for people who don't live in different places I think the idea of home isn't quite as complicated but I think it always is actually. I also thought a lot about so you can travel a million places but if you have a sense that can be a grounding thing but if you've never lived in your homeland that can be a very... Julie, could you elaborate a little bit on how you go about your work? Okay, I'll speak up. Could you elaborate on how you go about creating your pieces with your groups? The piece that we created was called, in the end it was called which is Haitian Creole for We Must Go. And it took us a little over a year to create it. The group comes together in what we call our group building, skill building phase. Is that a good volume for you? And that means getting to know each other, building trust, like in terms of sharing life experiences, learning to move together as an ensemble and also learning each other's languages and I mean that not just in terms of the fact that we had Amharic, Spanish, English, Kurundi, Nepali in that performance. So not just those languages but also just the ways that people communicate beyond that language. So that was the first three or four months and then we start looking, we start based on the stories that people are telling and the themes that they're bringing to the group, we start developing text and movement and a lot of exercises and a lot of thinking. So for example, for Fonale I used two jumping off points, departure points. One was a question I always ask the youth that I'm working with which is if you have an hour to speak to the world what would you want to say? And I do that because I want us to go deep right away. I want to dispel any idea that we're going to be doing entertainment. What's the most important thing that you could possibly say? So that's a long brainstorm and a long conversation and then I add on to that because you have knowledge that nobody else has because nobody else has lived your life or walked in your shoes. So based on your life experience what knowledge or questions might you want to share with the world? The second big departure point for Fonale was they were leaving their homeland or when they left their homeland and it couldn't be documents or photographs or writing, it couldn't be flat. And why? What's the story that opened a lot of doors for stories? With the kids who were born and raised in Springfield we define journey as going from here to there perhaps emotionally. Because in your life explain to the group what there to here was and what here to the next place. And so for some people it was a journey from Tanzania to the U.S. or a journey from informed by, I mean, triggered by the Rwandan genocide triggered by the Bhutanese ethnic cleansing or for some people it was a journey live in one apartment for more than six months or a year or going from a sense of deep disconnection to lack of so the objects brought us into these stories and then we work physically with the objects we write about them and a lot of times it's the initial skills that are already in the group like somebody might be an incredible singer an incredible writer, an incredible mover those are all, we use those as the the paint, the palette in a sense and then after, oh I interview everyone so that's how the text comes together either through writing improvisation that gets videotaped and transcribed or and there was one last interesting process that I have been working with so many of the people that I work with they're English, they might just be coming the last four to six months in this country so for instance, Gita and Deepika really one of our shows but I really wanted them to have it was a very funny interaction so I said well I'm going to ask you questions and you don't understand me and I'm like I don't care I'm going to audiotape you because that's the three English words that you can say so in Nepal so I got this interview that I really didn't understand at all and I gave it to they transcribed it and translated it into English I edited the English, gave it back I edited version back into Nepali and then I had the English and the Nepali Arabic and we've done the same thing with Karundi so the scripts come together like that and my background is in visual art so after we have a script sequence on it or something like that and we go into rehearsal and that's how our pieces come together could you elaborate a little bit on your work having people tell you about objects because you gave a couple of examples when we talked and that really was very helpful to me to understand and what these objects might be so for example in Phonale this young woman we say her object was a tree and so we used a tree in the performance and it was because growing up she would always go to this one tree when she wasn't feeling good when she got yelled at or was feeling years old this is in the refugee camp so that was one of the objects one of the most pivotal objects I would say in Phonale was the water tap because Gita from Nepal identified the water tap as the place where if she could go back to anywhere any one spot in Nepal it would be the water tap because the whole community gathered twice a day to get water and they would get on line long lines and argue about who was first and who was cheating to skip ahead and it was where they would get the news of who was leaving for America or Australia getting married or who had died and people would do each other's hair and the kids would be running around and playing and the old people would be taking care of people and the water tap became the metaphor for the whole piece in that that place connected the group the community and so we acknowledged at that moment that everyone who was coming to Springfield and the countries lost that and couldn't find it in Springfield they couldn't find a water tap because especially if you're coming from a warm country in the winter in Springfield nobody goes out and they're used to living with their neighbors and seeing each other every day on either side of Springfield or maybe in Australia or in Canada so for us we acknowledged that first generation was becoming a water tap and that was something that is lost in the transition from other communities and cultures but we also then began to explore water as a theme and so later on in the piece when we were looking for part of Weize's story which was that when she came to this country at 10 nobody told her that there was a different language there was such a thing as a different language she went to school there was no translator no grammar until one teacher began to sit down with her and somehow I mean it almost sounded like a Helen Keller situation because no so in our piece there's this one scene towards the end where she's running around looking for water and everyone in the it's like a tower of babble everyone in the community is speaking a different language and nobody can understand her they pull these objects throughout that show and it branches off into different stories but everybody is on the same journey and they're moving with their objects in the piece what observations have you gleaned about their experience of otherness how does otherness make them feel that kind of thing what are you observing from them about what's going on with them because of otherness it's really well in Springfield we have bigger populations of people from around the world so in Springfield Springfield was you know primarily African American and so and not good relationships between those groups in fact I think it was in the New York Times a couple years ago that it was so there's a lot of beef in Springfield on all levels politics which principals can control a particular school district it's really sad and then of course those are the models that the young people go by so when the Nepali youth start coming into the city or the Guatemalan African youth from Somalia, Sudan Burundi, Tanzania they're really isolated so they experience a tremendous amount of isolation or otherness in the sense, especially with the African kids because the African American youth very often want to separate themselves from them and say you're a lot of slurs on the other end of things a lot of the African kids are like well I'm not African American you know I have a much better ancestry than you I have an intact family you know there's a lot of observation on the part of the refugee and immigrant kids about what's going on in the people living in poverty in Springfield so there's a lot of Nepali kids everyone thinks they're Latino so it's an ongoing it's an ongoing situation and then when we come to first generation we have an opening ritual which is a welcome that is so we've made sure that in terms of creating a space where with some rebalancing as we say of the priorities thank you one of the things that has struck me a very simple medium-warm material can be used to make a very powerful artistic statement when we talked with the Mexican artists they work in paper because it's a common everyday material and they hope that they can put it in their voice very powerful on the same panel we had an activist who helps migrants who have come over and are struggling to get across the desert and you know the most help them survive I began thinking of her as an artist who works in water to a certain extent and we heard from the Cubans today how they fashioned one 20-foot skein of blue fabric and Kimmy you work in sand another very basic elemental medium which is then used to create some very powerful and beautiful images and could you tell me about it and the power of the impermanence I think and how that's used in bands so talk a little bit about that I'm not inventing anything new I did see there are some really amazing sand artists if you ever look up Ukraine's Got Talent I've seen other people do it and a few years ago I was commissioned by the Southern Foodways Alliance which is an amazing organization by the way to do a piece celebrating pit masters and the motion of salting a pig I thought looked a lot like sand and so we created a light box and a sand table and I was doing that with a partner but I found that I really liked the meeting again in another piece and then for this piece I thought it fit just because the sand and also because it relates to the land really fitting I think I've done a few workshops it's a great medium I think it encourages people to experiment because it's not permanent and I think it's really forgiving in that app to try things and it's more it's less about them creating pretty pictures and more about them being able to tell stories medium to use what kind of feedback do you hope to get from them or what they might carry with them afterward it's been interesting doing the piece for different people some people relate more to the Japanese-American aspect of it and I think having people be able to react and having them be able to relate emotionally to it or just learn the history that's also been an important thing I think some people have come from in Arkansas and some people were saying they never learned this in school so they told the story so that people know what happened Is there been a particularly moving particular interaction that you could share a story that maybe someone brought to you it was great doing the show for my dad's colleagues we did it up at Brandeis University so there were people in the audience from people that my dad had worked with in the past and they were able to see it and my dad's colleagues were able to see it and there are some photos in the piece of those people or their voices are actually in the piece so it was nice to do it for people who had a relationship to my father and so I think they had a unique experience with the piece or how does it make you feel when you encounter people who had never heard of this chapter in history I guess I'm just glad that I'm able to tell this story but yeah I wish it were a little bit more well known I guess a little bit surprised and yeah Thank you Julie, talk about outcomes that might come from the work that you do what do you hope your groups accomplish and both as groups and audiences I think in some ways those are equal partners but especially the first generation vision or mission the performing piece and the equal weight as the social justice piece and for us social justice is not just in the themes that we're asking people to think about but it's also in creating a space a group in Springfield of peer mentors who are mentors to other youth and also within their communities and communities work together and then sometimes they work at odds with each other so we're always doing leadership trainings our youth are learning how to facilitate circles and they are taking workshops around many social justice issues and hoping to facilitate that and pass it on so there's that piece but at the same time when we perform school recitals we get access to college campuses and theater festivals and then our youth are on college campuses and they start to feel like they belong there and that's incredible Sabrina Hamilton has we're partners now with her we live on Amherst college campus when we do that for a week some of them never leave Springfield otherwise or some of them never leave since they got there let's say we're invited to perform at another festival in Albuquerque and we perform at Hampshire and UMass so they get to know the local colleges we just had a young woman who to be raised by family had an extremely traumatic life came back to the states and lived in Springfield she just got a full scholarship to Hampshire college and she had already social justice to me it really does social justice isn't just issues and theoretical it's on the ground change yeah but in terms of audiences and performances the most powerful the stories and realize people say why don't you tell your story to me about your ancestry your family experience your history and that's what I want people to get you know this is I think an earlier chapter for you but could you tell us about your work in prisons which I think in some ways was a seed of this so that was like the unknown to me it was like the trigger I don't have a formal theater background I have a physical theater and then I went to school for visual art and when I was living in Connecticut I was hired to teach a drawing and painting class in a prison in a big prison that I walked into that prison I think a little switch was flipped in my mind and I just saw concentration camp couldn't help it and without knowing it I had a full career in 1990s I just got it on a gut level but then of course I had to educate myself as to what was really going on that drawing and painting class which I was paid to do for about 20 weeks ended up evolving into a theater project which I worked on with a friend called boom theater which went for about four years in Carl Robinson in field Connecticut and we kind of invented together a process to create and a lot of the guys there were locked up for like 30 years sentenced it was a real collaboration that went on for quite a few years and then I continued to do that in the Hampshire jail and we started not with ELSA so that work I think understanding the potential for creating community through artistic process and also creating opportunity for stories to be told that work that early work is what really informed me about that and also understanding the connection slowly but surely of my own ancestry I think now I'm almost in a studying diaspora you know I'm just there's something so powerful for me meeting someone who's just arrived in the United States and now it's on the news to get in and not being allowed to leave but when first generation started in 2008 I remember feeling so honored to witness a family's six months or a year in this country because I was getting fresh eyes in the United States and the way someone has to deal with the systems here and navigate and how they're perceived and seen in first generation there's a lot of really interesting conversation about why the African-American students or young people are poly kids and the Sudanese kids even though you know or two centuries or whatever it is into their diaspora and didn't come have to but when Africans came here as slaves it was a much worse case scenario and continued to be so the Nepali families or the Sudanese families are all the education is just like rolling forward people own a car within a year you know they're all enrolled in community college or four-year colleges and it makes for really interesting conversations can you can you expand a little we haven't explored dementia in your work and just what that and it's importance to the work so my dad's form of dementia has been so much that he's forgetting names and things although that's out of it it's been that he's had he has a lot of delusions about things that are happening it's confusion about what's real and what's not real has been very interesting and frightening but yeah especially with the piece it was really interesting he kept thinking or radio program or a TV program they were all about him and he didn't know why but he would think oh it's it's happening next week or it's you know it's on Broadway but I yeah so it was you know thinking about him and his childhood sort of escaping into the movies and so this seemed in a way like his way of escaping so yeah the confusion aspect I think was interesting in the way that the sand is able to transform from one image to another I think kind of reflects that so yeah and also I guess this is sort of a TV as a young kid in the piece I show this Three Stooges clip but thinking that there were these really racist things going on that he was probably seeing he talks about how he would watch these westerns like you know cowboys and Indians identifying as the cowboy or the Indian so yeah all of those things interesting I think now might be a good time to open up to some questions so I'd be happy to entertain some questions anybody it was very interesting to hear about this engagement of these young people to come to their own sense of themselves and wholeness their healing, their empowerment but how does this first generation project so tell that part of the story well it's never enough you know like we just I have so many ideas what I'd like to do what we do do is family events at least four or five times a year where these are different from our performance and we invite families to come and maybe they have a story that they want to tell or something that they want to share and also we have other performers that come and first gen youth perform so that's one way that people participate they do get to know me because I often interview parents and grandparents as part of the artistic process or Weezy's mom's voice is singing one of our shows so they know us as like a safe place where their kids can go because they we go away sometimes for three or four days or a week to go and it's the only time that this is with us sometimes so it's a huge trust thing that develops I think they see us as a resource for their children they recognize that we're going to help them get to college they recognize that we can be an advocate for them if they're having trouble with the food stamp thing or a court date we're a resource in that sense medical like doctor's appointments navigating mass health Medicare and Medicaid it's just stop shopping or we can refer people so they definitely see us as a resource and it's a rare thing you have to spend two hours on hold but with us it's by cell phone it's an extended family what we would like to do more of is some support communities to establish their cultural tradition some Burundi dancers to rehearse in our space we collaborated for the first this is where I got all choked up because our first generation of a first generation identity the challenge is a lot of them end up in school and want to be American and throw it all out the window and that really is a tremendous loss we know what it means to suddenly be white and not have any culture it's a loss so first generation started to say how can you be a young person be an ancestry, your culture, your language so when the Nepali community wanted to have a cultural festival we helped them rent the space rent the school auditorium deal with printing flyers stuff that they didn't know how to do yet so that's a way I would want to do so much more of that so those little things there's one of the Ethiopian families the woman wants to open someone does hair braiding we made hair braiding business cards it's kind of like all over the place little bit here, little bit there I was interested in the combination of what seemed to be a really serious process at the same time and I wondered if you could say something about that yes I never really thought of the pieces spontaneous, well I guess because I'm drawing live in the sense that drawing is always detours I mean I've practiced those drawings over and over and over so the marks that I'm making are pretty choreographed but which which I think is necessary and as much as I do practice it I'm not a machine so it does change from performance to performance and again this isn't quite relating to your question but I was really struck by this I don't know if you listen to a radio I did a piece about memory I think I guess a year and a half or two years ago where they were talking about but where they were actually able to it's a little complicated but this idea of memory this idea that storytelling and me doing these drawings for you is a way of you guys a creative thing I'm kind of answering your question yes I'm wondering if you can project yourself in the future and just imagine a time when you're done performing then or that you're taking a pause and then thinking of the sand that's been holding your family's stories I'm not that precious with it I mean it's a material and I think a lot of being able to let go of things and let go of the drawings and so I think it is just sand that I bought at Home Depot whether I I'm going to make a video tape of the show and I think actually while there is a video just for archival purposes I don't really want there to be a video of the piece that I share with people because I think it's important that it's something that is questions for you I assume part of your otherness quandary has to do with wanting people to understand something about your culture, your father the determined camp you're obviously not first generation I was duly spoken about but I just wonder along the way in your life with your family as one of the places Japanese heritage you have whether there's places within your family or educational or people you meet where do you want to hold on to kind of goes all over the place you'll find a way culture has been really important to me in my life that's been a big issue for me but yeah we used to go school and middle school but nostalgia for me so this do memories but I don't belong there and so that's growing up answering your question doing so well economically Japanese people were coming and buying so much real estate and you'd watch movies from that time period and they were the Japanese tourists and I think when I was growing up I really actually cameras and taking pictures with cameras has always been has a lot of weight to it which I think other people don't so yeah it's yeah Japan's very much a part of my life but at the same time it's that aspect in which something very specific socially specific like dementia or like isolation because of two languages not being able to share words becomes metaphorical for culture as a whole right and that dementia is is a concrete in your family in your father and potential dementia of forgetting where we come from forgetting our history not as individuals but as as an entire culture even if we have the same words are we not speaking different languages and what is lost by that and so my question is it work recognizes the breath of those metaphors or is that your work or is that our work is the audience to see that can you repeat the question yeah interesting I want the piece to work on those much larger levels I guess also in terms of dementia I because it's taking someone that is really familiar and making them strange to you and making you strange to them and so in a way I think it's a way for people to understand otherness actually but yeah it's and when we met you talked about Eric and his this piece Bend and I was feeling a little stuck it was feeling a little bit too much like I was just relating things that were happening and I was so struck by these very concrete historical things that had happened these genocides and yet he was able to use this really poetic language and I thought you know that's what I needed I needed I've got to tell it the way it happens the way it was but you know actually if you do open it up to this poetic language you're opening up the experience to people in a very different way and I think a way where some people can enter it you know where they might I haven't so much thought about the dementia I saw your show your puppet show but I haven't like the blurb about funale one of the things that I tried to capture was the idea that experiences and if we then tell the story or put them in they become crystallized in a certain way whether the experience is good or bad it takes on a like these memories that you tell it as a story I think we carry our memories with us and they they inform us in terms of who they are they can be or they can be sources of strength and fuel us and empower us for me it's really you can change the way that memory informs our life is an interpretation in and of itself right the work that I might touching upon all these things but it's really it the I don't know what I'm trying to say I think it's to make their own story about it or get what they get about it is that I don't know that didn't really answer your question every working with them and then re-depositing them having been changed is not only a change that happens to the memory but it's also a change that happens within the person as the memory and the for me the interest also on the individual level grows in their vocation and vision you as a people bring forth things that have been very hidden, covered with dust and they inform everyone who hears them everyone who shares them and that becomes a collective memory and the talent of that collective memory is it can be a very healing and very magic and it doesn't always work but I'm hearing connections between the two of you share I think elephants also do it I have to say for those of us who love elephants I was just talking about that but they live longer fruit flies do not do it they live the lives are too short but we're supposed to be doing it that's our job so in some ways losing it not so much to let it go but to have worked it through so that it is like the sand and then the sand is just collectively I just came back from Rwanda and was just learning about reconciliation a Jewish person who doesn't walk around hearing about the Holocaust on a daily basis here in the US but it's the lens that's really comfortable for me I learned so much and you couldn't have a single conversation with someone without the reconciliation and the genocide being part of it all their family work all their community work is all inclusive including peace work and reconciliation and it's I think we have time maybe for one more question and if I don't can you share some more experiences of the people that actually have gone through your program and just how you've seen things change for them or for the people that witnessed it um hmm I've been watching people grow up you know for a few a couple interactions that I can think of are like in hunger who was in Funale who never really had his father or his mother growing up um it was a very scary piece for him to share it was a very raw cry and he actually would like audience some men would come up to him and say thank you because I've never talked about how much I wanted to be held by my father I was never able to say that but he was not alone and it was also a great moment for the audience you know to connect with it like that well in particular Jamari who in ripple effect this other piece that we did he told the story of losing friends who became child soldiers and by the army that enticed them by offering them money and then would tell them to shoot someone who had a bag over their head and their parents and from that point on the child has nothing to lose and they become that's how they train their child soldiers in one of their ways and Jamari told that story and we had really interesting conversations in the group about what forms of gang because we've had gang members in first gen as well and what are the moments in their lives where they felt they had nothing to lose so these had one crazy situation where there was one guy who came into the ensemble and he was he had been incarcerated he was young he was like 17 and he had kind of one foot in each world and he came up to co with us spent four days and then he said he had to go back to Springfield to Springfield we got together and it turned out that he had realized that he had robbed one of our members and so there was this you know this guy said to this guy I realized when you were talking about getting robbed because Bush had been robbed and it had been a very traumatic experience and he was still recovering from it he had been in a car accident and been robbed in one year so he was talking about that the other guy had realized it so he came to him and he was like I love you guys I've never had to confront one of my victims and we were all crying so that's another example I guess I want to thank all of you for being so engaged and being here well thank you