 tina koutou, tina tātou, nā mai haarimai ki tina tunga. Namihiki a koutou, nā kai kodero mai tinae wa. Ko Amy Joseph toko ingoa hi kai mahi aho no tipuna mautiranga o Aotearoa, te legal deposit librarian aho, tina koutou, tina koutou, tina tātou koutoa. And that. Just greetings to all of you and to our speakers for the first and second session in this stream. I'm Amy Joseph, I'll be both the chair for this session and also the moderator for the panel and I'm at the National Library as the Legal Deposit Librarian. Is that an assigned micrana at the back there? Excellent. So thanks to Tanya for stepping up to volunteer, but we've got Sean at the back of the room who will be our micrunner. OK, so our first session is a panel discussion, just kind of a bookend to the panel discussion that Jay and Hannah had yesterday with the digital creators. This is the digital collectors panel discussion. After that, we will have a session from Sarah and Paul on the discovery wall at Tūranga, I think is the name of the New Christchurch Library. Excellent. So I'll do a bit of an introduction to this panel and then pass over to our panellists. So NDF is a very well-established venue for inspiring conversations about digitising our existing collections, making them available and about providing rich and engaging user experiences online and in our physical spaces through the use of digital technologies. But I feel like we've talked a little bit less, at least in recent years, about building our born digital collections and what that's going to require, which is why I propose this panel during the call for papers. We'll certainly be picking up on some of the threads that have already been present in the conference this year, including, as I said, the panel that Jay and Hannah convened yesterday in conversation with creatives and creatives, also Fiona and Maastriki's presentation on acquiring online content to support the acquisition of a physical artwork at Te Papa, and also some nice bookends on the main stage yesterday with Michael Edson's entreaty that cultural institutions must find new ways to leverage their combined vitality and power and to involve communities and individuals more. And Jess Moran's lightning talk, starting to explore how we and the National Library in particular might facilitate just that for born digital collecting. My provocation to the panellists ahead of this session was to consider particularly how we respond to the ways in which contemporary born digital art, objects and documentary heritage blur boundaries, boundaries, for example, between the digital and physical worlds, between the artists, the objects they're creating and the audience, between software and the artistic or informational content that that software conveys between the node and the network and even between the traditional boundaries and mandates of our respective institutions. So I'll very briefly introduce our panellists and then they'll each give a lightning fast overview of what they see as the opportunities as well as the challenges of born digital collecting. Then we'll do a very brief recap on some of the key themes to emerge from that creatives panel yesterday before we move into questions. We were going to have a creator on this panel but unfortunately for various reasons that fell through. If we happen to have any creatives in the room, you're very welcome to join in the conversation and that's true for anyone in the room for that matter. We want this to be a broader conversation than just the four of us. So if at any time you want to contribute, make yourself known to Sean, who is our mic runner, of course, as you know by now always make sure you've got the mic before asking your question or making your comment. But do feel free to do that at any time. And finally just a small caveat that our speakers may sometimes be speaking from a personal perspective rather than as the official voice of the institution, particularly in response to a question they may not have the answer or authority to speak as the voice of the institution. So bear that in mind. So our panellists are from your left to right, I believe. Jagatuso is a Digital Preservation Analyst at the National Library of New Zealand. Fiona Moorhead is the Collections Information System Manager at Te Papa and Tom Ackroyd is the Digital Collection Team Leader at Ngāo Tonga Sound Envision Archive. So at least someone has a burning desire to go first. We can also go from left to right for our intro sessions. Well, hello. Thank you, Amy, for this opportunity to join this panel and this conversation. My role at the National Library, I've been there for eight years, which feels like both a very long time and a very short time, has been as a Digital Preservation Analyst. And in that role I've worked very closely with the Legal Deposit Collecting Team as well as the Alexander Temple Library Collecting Teams and been involved in many projects that have crossed some of those boundaries and those divides that Amy was kind of describing. So born Digital specifically I think is a really exciting place to be. I think we've got heaps of opportunity to do great things and I do often worry that we are not leveraging that opportunity as best we might. I picked on three kind of key things and I've got a whole page of notes which I will spare you. I kind of drilled it down to the cloud as being one of our primary problems for me. There's an as a service model which means that we rarely own things anymore. We don't own metal, we don't own machines, we lease somebody else's computers. Things are increasingly turning subscription so we don't have access to content as is. We have it fed through a pipe which is fragile. We stop paying the monthly bills and the content disappears. And for me there's a real worry about missing out on serendipitous collecting which I think forms a big part of historical collecting and how we've found physical archives over the years. I think that's a real problem. Geography isn't real anymore. I mean it is obviously still real but in terms of where things reside and where things have been written, created, published to from, we're not bound by geography and some of our legislation, policy and internal kind of paradigms I think really still leverage a hard boundary concept and I don't think that's real anymore. I mean there's mechanisms which are real but I think we could be doing different things there. And then DRM is another problem as well. DRM is going to bite us very, very, very hard if it's not biting us already. DRM digital rights management so content if we imagine being given a bunch of books or papers whatever from a donor and they're all jumbled up and we've got a magical key that only one person can have and it's quite fragile we would really struggle with that and that's kind of what we're asked to do with digital stuff quite often and that's only going to go and get worse with HTML5 and the inclusion of DRM and the HTML5 standard. There's loads of legal stuff which I'm not going to touch and then technically I think primary for me is volume I think we've not reached saturation point. We haven't reached capability saturation point so we're still learning capability is still growing but the volume, diversity, complexity of this stuff is also exponentially growing and we're kind of I don't think we're anywhere near seeing the top of the hill and DRM's are going okay now what does it look like? We're still learning sometimes on a daily basis. So I guess that's kind of my introduction. I'll probably park it there and hand over to... Kia ora koutou. So my name's Fiona Morehead I am the Collections Information System Manager here at Te Papa so as well as looking after our Collections Information System and also Collections Online site in my spare time I look after digital collections both born digital and transferred to digital. So thinking about some of the challenges institutionally with this type of collecting, two things came to mind and I think I'm going to be echoing a bit of what Jay said already. So the first is knowledge do we have the right skills and knowledge across the organisation so this is not just the specialist skills for people who are working with digital heritage items day to day but it's also the knowledge held by all staff. So how do we know that staff are seeking out the right types of digital materials to collect and how do we know that once they're in our care these items are being offered adequate care that will ensure that they will exist into the future and is there sufficient knowledge about and support for digital collecting and digital preservation at the leadership level of our organisations. The second point is resources so do we have sufficient resources and the right tools to be able to care for these types of collections with digital becoming an increasingly intrinsic and vital part of people's lives today we're in the middle of a big upswing in numbers and volume of digital items coming into our collections with all collection types. Are we ready for this and do we have the right level of resources to be able to care for and manage these type of collections. Thanks. Thank you everyone. I just thought no it was a prompt to take a photo and now I wonder who to give it to. My name's Tom I'm a digital born digital collector at Ngatonga Sound and Vision the challenges that I think and opportunities as you said Amy that we face are to do with the blurring of boundaries in my work so that the traditional audio visual or time based media is now finding new homes integrated into multimedia works and that means the prospect, the exciting prospect actually I think of collaboration across institutions but also maybe the creation of new institutions and I think that's something that I'm keen to see more discussion around. A challenge as J.M. Piena appointed a volume, a shared volume of material that's not only available but actually coming into the collection, to our collection and number of items that you might catalogue as a separate item but also the digital size of these items as we go into much more high resolution imagery especially in film and TV. I got a couple of suggestions from colleagues around not just collection but the impact that collection has on preservation and in our organisation by preservation we mean the migration, the digital migration but the conversion from born digital files to something that's more normalised and that is archivaly more has longer life and can be supported by my next point open source solutions where we may not be able to rely on third party commercial organisations such as Apple or Avid or other software developers and so our emphasis these days is on working with open source solutions to transcode audio visual items into a format that will last longer. So it's very attractive but it's also complex to learn and operate off the shelf because commercial software of course has a wrapper, has a GUI, it's designed to be useful and to be easy to comprehend. Open source does not have that necessarily as part of it's manifestation. I think that's it from me. Thanks everyone. So as I said next up is trying to feed some of what we shared and learnt in yesterday's digital creators panel to feed into the digital collectors and making sure we're not operating in isolation so I wonder Jay in particular but anyone else who was at that session what were the big takeaways from that for you and for what it means for our work. Okay so the panel session, who was there yesterday? Show of hands and people make it. Okay so more people didn't make it, that's great. So we had three creatives, we had an artist, illustrator, we had a musician and we had a researcher, writer and we were asking them questions along how do they expect their content to be regarded over time what do they think reuse looks like of their stuff and questions I'm a bit obsessed with is what do they wish they had access to to their own of people that influence them. So in summary I think my biggest takeaway was we have work to do. I'm going to struggle to distill it down to something salient. I think there's some shifting attitude in terms of what ownership means of content, there's something about revenue, there's something about being on the internet always and that being where life happens rather than it being a final resting place for content. I think there's something about nuancing the collections and having fine toothed comb tools and policies that allow us to deal with rights management, that allow us to deal with an artist wanting to use and using successfully pirated material to generate their content and it landing in our laps as being something we are then obliged to manage and look after going forward how do we deal with the legacy of somebody else's perhaps less rigorous approach to copyright. And then also things like anonymity in which the writer researcher Nicky talked about quite extensively how do we protect sources safely and how do we encourage people to then deposit their content with us in a way that they're comfortable we're going to do justice to their secondary sources. That's probably enough on that, thank you. I would add to that from the notes that I took. To me it was striking that lots of the panellists said that their work was born digital stays digital, is self-distributed online and I think it's maybe an obvious thing to say but we are well and truly into the digital age now and we all know that for a lot of people there really isn't that much of an analog record. The contrast to that being that for Nicky the writer analog was increasingly important because of all those issues around privacy and security in the digital space and this is similar to what Burgess was saying this morning that we can kind of entreat people to be in control of their own content but platforms give people an audience that they will find much more difficult to cultivate for themselves so there really isn't incentive for creators to be on those platforms and in those ward gardens and that's just something that we have to deal with, I think. So those would be the main two for me. I'm interested if there's anyone who has anything that particularly struck them from that session. I was particularly interested in the way they talked about their archiving techniques their personal archiving techniques. My photographic collection is just insane and I have a librarian's mind of how I organise it but how they were doing it with hard drives less cloud was really interesting and how we're going to collect that and if we want to collect that and the internet archives as well. Jay, can you speak to the respective challenges of archiving from hard drives and from the cloud? I can give it a whack. So I think one of the things that two of them said was we don't delete anymore now we're digital we don't delete we just kind of shovel it off to the side and we get going so there was one explicitly and one implicitly was suggesting they're not self curating their own archive as they kind of go through their creation process. The net result is and we've dealt with this a couple of times at the library and it's their collection and it's a hard drive and we kind of have to work with them to assert what order looks like and to make sure that we're collecting and ingesting the correct things but I think increasingly that's a bit of a full zero and I think we can on the one hand just throw a big loop around and shovel the whole thing in and go like hey Philly boots or we do something where we go we'll have this file and that file and the rest is junk and who knows what the answer is. The cloud isn't even bigger mess I often it's a bit of a horror story about mega uploads where mega uploads got removed from the internet whatever was seven years ago 4% of the internet disappeared literally overnight it was there and then people woke up in the morning and it was gone and this is bunch of stolen stuff and also a bunch of you know proper things that people owned the IP for that they never got back again so the cloud it's got volume like hard drives but it's also got intangibility which I think we're going to really suffer from and so for me I think tools we don't have tools we don't have any sense of tool building what it means to have professional weapons grade tools that we can go and collect and harvest and manage collections of the scale that we're expecting to and without getting too far into kind of muddy waters there are agencies who do this and I think we heard this morning about agencies who are very competent at managing that level and scale of data we're not even in the same country let alone the same street same house same conversation so for me I think that we're missing something One other quick takeaway for me was Jim the comics artist pointed out that one of the sort of outputs of work in that community is brushes that they create and share online so people are also creating and sharing these tools as well as what we would consider more traditional outputs. A question for Fiona can you speak to the state perhaps of the art seen in New Zealand and to what extent artists are producing digital works or digitally kind of enhanced works and where Te Papa and other collecting galleries are seeing that going So my background prior to being here I've spent around 10 years working in contemporary art galleries and collecting institutions so that's where that question comes from I think it's an interesting one because I think that there are always trends in what art is being produced and also what art is being collected and certainly there has been a huge upswing in the amount of digital video work or interactive type works that have been created and then collected by institutions I don't know that I'm necessarily the right person to talk about the scale and types of this but I know in my work here at Te Papa there are certainly some challenging works that have been collected relatively early on in terms of New Zealand institutions collecting video art so works from say the early 2000s where they need revisiting and need format migrations, they need work being done on them in order for them to survive into the future and I think sometimes video art particularly has been collected by institutions without necessarily a clear understanding of foresight of how that will be managed into the future and it's something that has changed over time and I know a lot of collecting institutions do a form of questionnaire or interview process with the artist or creator to try and find out more about what is the life cycle of this artwork, will there be a time at which it needs to be migrated to a different form, is that okay or is there a possibility that the work will cease to exist and will need to be deaccessioned or considered in a different way in the future so I guess that's kind of an interesting idea when we're thinking of collecting we want to think about the perpetuity of collecting but I think the digital space is a much more interesting space where a collection may have a lifespan, a more finite lifespan Are you finding now that you're going back to artists that you acquired works from earlier when maybe these plans weren't so robustly in place and saying okay how do we extend the lifespan of this work at this point in time? I think that most collecting institutions who are collecting artworks that's a necessary part of that work and I think the longer it goes between the point of collection and the point that you have to revisit it, sometimes the harder it gets what happens when an artist is no longer living and you're dealing with an estate, what happens if it's a collective and the collective are no longer working together, the further down the track the more difficult it can be and it's also a question of resources often with collecting institutions you're looking at the point of acquisition you're always looking at the new things and sometimes it can be harder to backtrack in the things that have already been collected and try and solve some of the mysteries often from an art perspective those things are dealt with when the artwork is being considered for an exhibition or loan and sometimes the timescale required for that can make it too hard to deal with so it becomes yet another thing that is known about but not adequately dealt with and managed so that that artwork will continue into the future That probably makes a good time to insert a special guest question so we were going to have Nick Richardson who works at ACME on the panel when he was initially planning on being here for NDF and he had to stay in Australia but I asked if he had any questions to put to the panel and his question was so we know that with digital quite often the need for intervention is earlier in the life cycle of a work but are we learning ways of managing those interventions and offering advice and working with creators in a way that has minimal impact on the core of their artistic practice and the works they're trying to produce and how do we balance that tension so anyone can take that one I might give it a quick go and see if anyone else wants to comment I think it's always interesting particularly from an art context you can learn from some of your interactions and the whole in one approach is the only way of doing it and I think earlier in my career I found it really interesting I remember asking a colleague why don't we just make a set of rules and whenever we're receiving an artwork if it's a digital artwork we will only accept these formats and have this kind of information particularly with artists if anyone here in the audience has worked with artists and I think it's way more important to be more open and to have a good relationship and conversation with the producer rather than being a collecting institution that is all about the rules and expecting the artist or the maker of the collection item to conform to your sometimes from an artist's point of view maybe arbitrary set of rules and in the film and TV world is what resources do creators have at their disposal throughout the creation of their work and that talks to its dissemination how popular it will be whether it has the support of public funding whether it has the support of large commercial entities like studios and those studios and or post production facilities that are well established have very clear and one would hope consistent and long lasting procedures to look after that material but if you are a soul creator and you're not aware even of the existence of archival institutions such as Ngātānga, Sa'an and Vision the brand awareness of our organisation is high in certain areas of the population and low in many others that those interventions as you say met with kind of bewilderment and I often think now that it is what it is that what you are offered is if you're not able to go back to a creator and say actually could we have this, this and this that you take what they have and that is then defined as the object if you like whatever state it is in, if it was a VHS if it was a piece of film, if it was a low res Vimeo download as opposed to a piece of negative or something more master like and so everything in between I can go back to certain depositors and say we have relationships with and say you've offered this we would prefer that, do you have access to that if you don't I can talk to people who may and then that conversation goes on so I think having rules is appropriate in some instances like say with broadcasters and medium to high level film feature productions in small teams especially maybe at the beginning of their careers unless they're never going to pick up the phone and go hey to an archive and say hey how do I do this, they'll talk to who taught them and their peers I could probably talk to this topic for about 7 hours I think it's crucial to the success of longevity of information, I'm trying to in my head decide which of the 17 strands that kind of got pinged as our colleagues were talking that I wanted to talk to and I'm going to talk particularly about a particular format so we're format agnostic, we never make any guidance much to Amy Chagrin we are often asked can you tell us what format thing should be and we often refuse to do that because we specifically don't know influence the creative process often times a creator doesn't care and they just want a piece of sensible guidance and so I think sometimes good advice falls in that crack one of the reasons I'm working right now is music compositions pieces so they are of a particular software which I'm not going to name for reasons that may become clear and they were originally written in 2001 the collection is great it's a national collection of a national composer we can get contemporary versions of the software and we have a license for such except from when we open it with the software it says hey this was created in 2001 I've made a bunch of changes don't worry about it it's probably cool everything alright and that's it and I got into a conversation with them and I said hey like this probably is not okay for doing the work that we do we probably care a bit more about what those imaginary changes are they worked with me amazingly well for a very long time for a number of weeks which is a long time in keeping the attention of a software ticket and then eventually it got to their management layer and they decided they were not going to support us so they bought the software from 2001 they don't want it to support it they don't want to sell me a license and so I can't actually legally buy the software from the vendor for the product that was created in 2001 that's not very long ago so I think for me we're still unraveling the challenges of 20 years ago I would hate for us to be in 20 years time bickering about what do we do with Twitter and what do we do with Facebook you know I would imagine those companies are going to be long gone I suspect they might or might not and not as my employer but I hope that in 20 years time we're not still thinking about what it means to collect that stuff I think we've learnt enough and I hope that the advice that we can give to to people who are willing to work with us is along the lines of using open source of managing that stack that the technology stack sanely and really thinking about the distance of the object that you are collecting but also and counterintuitively dealing with things like that the colleagues yesterday were talking about which is they want to see process so let's look over the shoulders of creators and not just take their scrapbooks let's take them making that process and think across those boundaries and do different things because I think at the moment we're missing some of that story one of the boundaries that I mentioned in the preamble was the distinction between an object of interest as the node and the network that exists within and possibly another node in that network is the audience or the person who is consuming that content so I guess with that I'm trying to say that a lot of the time in various different fields of endeavour the kind of works that people are producing may rely on input from the user or about inferring knowing something about the user from that is flooding around them to make a decision about what to present to them and also that it can be very hard to extract a bounded thing that lives on the internet from that context and put it away in a collection so I just wonder if you have any comment on how we deal with those nodes in this very very intricate network that we've decided of importance to continue to understand and access into the future I'll chuck a starter on the table and it's a bleak answer I'm afraid sorry Amy I think for me one of the answers lies in organisational readiness, organisational digital literacy, I think if we're making collecting decisions if we're making collection choices we're obliged to understand the domain from which we're collecting and if the voices which are informing progressing working on every stage don't have a really comfortable grounding in what they're dealing with I think we've got a problem so I think the challenge back would be think about your organisation and think about those people who you have doing that collecting do we offshore the really careful professional information management that is digital collecting to the institutional ICT who may be very good at understanding the enterprise level mechanisms perhaps less well versed in what the archival practice or forensic like practice we might want to adopt so for me I think organisational digital literacy is a real key to this knowing the domain we work within helps us to start to explore what the problems actually are and have professional conversations about what our challenges are I know Fiona yesterday one of the things that Tepapa discussed when they were looking at capturing the Instagram account that went along with the artwork was do we feel comfortable taking the interactions of other people with the Instagram accounts who interacted with the Instagram account from the collective so maybe you could very quickly recap what decision you made there sure so the artwork that Amy's describing is an artwork by Matahau Collective a collective of full women who made a large sculptural work made from many layers of sewn tarpaulin which has been exhibited at Dokumenta in Kassel in Germany and is currently in the Oceania exhibition at the Royal Academy in London and so when this artwork was proposed for acquisition both the sculptural element and also some digital elements were considered as part of the one acquisition so the digital elements were a website containing narratives about taniwha that sat alongside the artwork but another element was the Instagram account of the collective that documented the conceptualisation and production of the sculptural artwork and also the process of the collective taking that artwork to the exhibition in Germany and so there was quite a long process and a lot of discussion about what would be collected and why it would be collected and the Instagram account displayed pictures created by the collective but also comments from their colleagues and friends and supporters and that was a challenge that we had to work through if we wanted to collect this what would it mean to have all of these comments that people had made on Instagram who didn't necessarily think that it would end up within the national collection and so the resolution we came to with that after speaking with Victoria Leachman, the rights manager here at Te Papa was to collect a recording of the Instagram account but for it to be collected in a way where it could be used by researchers and also by staff members to understand more about the context of the creation of the artwork but it wouldn't necessarily be displayed alongside the artwork and so that in discussion with Victoria we came to the conclusion that that was an acceptable example of this collecting of social media that it wouldn't necessarily be plastered on the walls with people's comments you know out of context and people being very surprised that that was collected but I guess another example that comes to mind for me is the exhibition spaces recently you would see an artwork by Janet Lilo which includes screen captures and also video footage by members of the public so the screen captures are from a now defunct social media platform called Bebo and the videos are people like fan art creating versions of their favourite songs and so that is another recent acquisition within Te Papa's art collection and obviously that has some really big repercussions. What does it mean as Amy said before what does it mean when you are an institution collecting something that has been created by somebody who doesn't necessarily abide by the same copyright means that we would if we were creating this item ourselves what does it mean to collect something that contains another person's creative work that they didn't necessarily create as part of that artwork and one of the resolutions that we've come to with that is that we will be receiving the final version of that artwork in a form that we can essentially take down items from that artwork in conjunction with the artist so for instance if somebody comes to us who created one of those videos and they objected their video being part of Janet's artwork it can be removed from the final cut of the artwork but oh my goodness it's like I think it's awesome how artists work to stretch boundaries and also sometimes to challenge us in this way and while it may cause headaches for us managing these collections I think it's really refreshing and I hope that artists and creators keep doing this because it's just an awesome stretching of the boundaries but also the creative process moving in new directions. That's really interesting and I've thought of a version of that before I mention it. These things change over time so the older something gets the less worried people are about peering into past lives and I'm thinking of Patrick Pan's exhibition at the City Gallery recently which is the photographs in that collection would extend back at least 100 years some of them and they're all presented without I was going to say without permission. These are photographs that may have been private that have slipped out into other collections he's scared eBay for years buying these things putting them on display. It was a fantastic exhibition and it was a glimpse into people's past lives but also the artists conception of reflection and the construction of it but I wonder whether he and the City Gallery have had these same kinds of conversations perhaps not because it's so old it's moved beyond that it's become part of the commons I would argue and I don't know whether that would happen again with current digital work. There is publicly available on the internet Instagram if you follow someone on Instagram and they haven't got a locked account then any questions or comments from the audience at this point? I wanted to move into some questions that are loosely based around some formats. They're not necessarily questions about formats but I'm going to frame the conversation around them. I was trawling through some of the strategic documents of our respective institutions in preparation for this panel and one of the sentences that jumped out at me from Ngā Tungan's strategy is the statement moving image and sound is the prime currency of modern culture and we've talked about video art as well so that's also an example of moving image at least and probably sound as well and if you think about something that would traditionally be collected by the National Library what are the conference proceedings of this conference? The NDF YouTube channel there may be people who may choose to share papers and slides and other things online as well but definitely the primary conference proceedings are the videos. So that's a case where most collecting institutions are interested in collecting sound and vision content for different reasons and having different mandates that kind of motivate that so I wonder if particularly Ngā Tunga is thinking about how they collaborate and lead in that space and how we maybe redraw some of the boundaries and try to avoid duplication of effort in all those sorts of issues. I've been in conversation with colleagues at National Library about just this and as you know and I think again it goes back to my point of involving the creator but also practically looking at policy and going well is it within Ngā Tunga's policy to collect the proceedings of a conference such as this as a video record that it would fall into if I was accessioning this myself I'm not sure whether I would call it it's not a published work necessarily it's not edited it's not performance it's what form is it and what genre is it these are the questions I ask and if the NDF is saying that the YouTube and video recordings of this conference are the true record of it as opposed to anything else written or published online then that is a conversation that I think could be had with Ngā Tunga sound and vision and possibly with the library as well but we do bump up against the problem of YouTube, of how to collect from YouTube and whether that's a, legal, b, can you get the best possible quality from it and therefore maybe having conversations earlier in the piece with NDF or similar institutions to pre-empt that collection imperative. I love that you raised the question of whether or not an edited or very lightly edited video was a published work or not because we're having so many conversations about the distinction between what is published and unpublished internally within the library so again where those boundaries are shifting any comment from that side of the table so I think one of the problems we have as heaps of stuff I think one of them is the intellectualisation of what things are, form and genre I think is a barrier, I think we intellectually can imagine that the proceedings of a conference are a collectible entity, they are the units of informational distribution within the conference we just struggle to put them in a clean box that we can then put on a shelf and forget about so I do wonder whether there's something we need to do about re-evaluating what that means there's another one I wrote down, it's volume we ought to collaborate, we may want to collaborate but in the end I don't think the tools that we have scale sanely enough to mean that the library for example could just give all of its moving video to a moving video entity and they would deal with it, I think we all have more work than we can deal with and I think that's actually a problem in and of itself so until such times as we have efficient workflows and toolings we are automating as much as we possibly can in the Nali edge cases and not the bulk of the work, I think we're going to be stuck where we currently are and then finally on the YouTube thing, again I think it's fascinating that we're still having this conversation, I think I would hope that by now intellectually we understand that there's a problem and that we've got a direction of travel and I know that there is work happening in this space as a professional, as an individual I am painfully frustrated that this is still a conversation that we need to have are we legally allowed to collect from YouTube? I think YouTube played its position to be a market dominant product and by that it kind of dominates the commons and I think for me there's an obligation that they play fair and they allow collecting institutions with a legal madeo to collect it to deal with that so this is my personal view and may or may not reflect the views of my employer I wish that we weren't having this conversation because it's a solved problem we can collect from YouTube if we want to, there are tools that do it for us they collect the content as best possible, they collect the comments but we are operating in a very conservative risk averse model for understandable reasons which means that we're in practice because of problems which I suspect we're kind of creating for ourselves a little bit and I wonder whether there's any movement that we might be able to get in a national platform that just says you know what we're just going to get on with it because and that's kind of the bottom line Well we did have last week Internet New Zealand had a public event as part of the International Internet Preservation Consortium conference and they had Vint Cerf, father of the Internet and Grand Pubar of Google somehow who stated that these platforms have an obligation to enable archiving because of its importance to the evidentiary record so that's a good one to have to point at Moving from a probably reasonably well understood format at this point well that's a broad statement to make but from these traditional sound and moving image formats to emerging formats apps, virtual reality, augmented reality and Tom's point right at the beginning in his introduction about the possibility of emerging new models for collaboration and even entirely new institutions and for me working in legal deposit where we say publishers have to give us a copy of their publication like that's a simple thing sometimes it's not sometimes they just don't have the ability or the right to give us the app or the platform that is required to run the publication and even if they do that then gives us this huge diversity of software and platforms that we have to manage over time and sort of become a software shop so I guess with these emerging formats that are just so much more intricate coming out how do we approach that as a sector Well I mean I don't think the tools we have are mature enough Amy I really think we need to spend a lot more time digging around in what we've got and I loved your words from earlier solve some of those mysteries of the stuff which is 20 years old and it will start to inform what practice looks like for dealing with this today so we are really behind the curve apps are happening and they're a thing and I can't put my finger on any significant national collections that deal with that in a meaningful way there are little bubbles of great things that we have managed to grab but as a concept they're still amorphous and there isn't a simple answer and in the end it's going to come down to funding a platform that allows us to emulate specific environments to replicate specific databases to have permission to blah blah blah I mean we know technically how to do it but realistically we're not funded we're not even anywhere close to that conversation right now so I think time doing the stuff now to understand some of that conjecture around the intellectualisation of objects helps us to inform some of those bigger questions If I can add to that as well I think that I really agree with what you say Jay about the idea that we may think that this is a recent issue with apps and like VR and AR and all the rest of it but we certainly have things in our collection that have been in our collections for some time that we haven't adequately managed or dealt with so I'm working through a couple of examples at the moment where an item has been collected that has been considered as a purely physical object but it has software that runs and it has a digital component that the curator who was part of the acquisition didn't consider as being important or maybe it was just too hard at the time and so we've got things sitting in our collection stores that have time based or digital elements that are an opportunity for us to work on and to enhance that object and make it useful in different ways and I don't say that as a criticism in any way it's obviously something that we're all grappling with and it's something that is going to increase over time and I think the other thing that comes to mind for me is the different to a legal deposit environment with a collection where items are considered individually by curators for acquisition and digital literacy of understanding what will this collection item be used for over time, how will it be researched displayed, understood by people in the future so I think it's one of those things that we need to all work together within institutions to increase our knowledge and expertise in this area I know there's a lot of records that I've come across in our published library catalogue from the mainly 90s and 2000s where there's a field like contains one computer disk no more information about what that might be so we've got some surprises waiting for us in our vaults I think. I'm not sure I have a comment. Well actually I mean I think this idea of possible new institutions is all well and good and I think the history of one of the collections that Ngātā Angostān and Vision which is the film archive came out of that need in 1981 Jonathan Dennis said who's collecting this film, no one I'm going to do it and he did and now we've inherited that collection so of course there's precedent for this and I would like to think that the kind of conversations we have today and I take your point Jay about intellectualisation and you know maybe I was being more of a mouthpiece there and I agree personally that you know the Library of Congress forms and genres perhaps in bad need of updating and also challenging but the idea also I want to throw this out is what is a work, where are the boundaries of the work and I'm thinking in particular one thing that I've been grappling with a multimedia publication called The Valley which is a website it's a traditional TV documentary it's an AR app it's a bunch of hypertext it's a bunch of comments, breakout videos that kind of, that is to me is a work it's called The Valley it's produced by Stuff Circuit and it's published and we need to collect it and at the moment we're not because it's those things are spread out by necessity because it's a new form so I would hope that either we do have a new institution or an established cross collaboration between institutions that is tasked with setting out a pathway to go down. Alright we're going to have to leave it there I did like the, I think Fiona was getting at the notion of kind of the significant properties of a work emerging at the end there so I would have liked to have touched on that but we really don't have time very much to our panellist there is clearly no shortage of things to talk about if any of this sparks anything with you then do come up and talk to us and let's get those collaborations going and I'm sure Tom and I have more to talk about after this to keep that particular cross institutional collaboration going so thank you