 folks. This is House Corrections and Institutions Committee. We have shifted gears now back to corrections and we have with us the folks from UVM and also folks from DOC and a person who's also within DOC but working with the print project with also Urban Institutes. So we're going to have a general conversation over the next couple of hours to really see what research is being done currently within UVM and also working with Bradley Goodhill who's the DOC person working with the Urban Institute and print project to really look at what's happening with initiatives within the policy world of the Department of Corrections and also policy within the incarcerated world that we hope will help us use this knowledge to help us figure out how we move forward with replacing our correctional facilities so they're more appropriate the buildings the facilities are more appropriate to the actual needs of folks who are being housed there be trauma-informed or gender responsive or an environment that's more conducive to rehabilitation and also a safer environment for our folks who are residing there as well as for our staff that are working there. So there's a lot of initiatives are happening nationwide there's a lot of initiatives are happening just within New England and this is where I'd like to go to the UVM research projects and I'm going to turn it over to Kathy Fox and Abigail Crocker so before you speak in your testimony if you could just identify yourself for the record so welcome. Okay thank you excuse me my name is Kathy Fox I'm a professor of sociology at UVM and I'm going to talk a little bit and then turn it to Abby so we can sort of talk about our projects together so we Abby can introduce herself but she's a professor in math and statistics and so I'm a criminologist and I do qualitative research Abby does quantitative research largely in the area of social determinants of health so together we kind of take a public health and criminological perspective on our research so we created the Justice Research Initiative which unfortunately has the same abbreviation JRI as justice reinvestment so causes some confusion and this is an interdisciplinary research initiative that has a few purposes one is to focus on the well-being and success of justice-involved populations and to conduct cutting-edge research to drive systems change and then also to engage scholars researchers state leaders stakeholders and those affected in the system to understand and to help move forward problems in the criminal justice system so we have three projects one is the women's prison project one is the PRIN project and then the third is the national center on restorative justice which kind of covers both of those plus more but I think we won't really talk about that today so I'm going to talk about the women's prison project and then Abby will talk about PRIN and as will Brad so the women's prison project started last year Abby and I had been contacted by Mike the former commissioner Mike Touchette to go visit prison in Connecticut we went with Al Cormier and Mike Lyon and and then separately we went to the main women's re-entry center and we're really impressed by what they were doing and then I had been contacted by Teresa Messier because I you know knew her from my other work in Chittenden and she had also been to the main re-entry center and I know some of the legislators have as well and so we developed a project that's really a learning community between the main the leadership at the main women's facility and the leadership at at Chittenden to sort of discuss best practice policies what works what doesn't work so we've had several facilitated meetings and then Abby and I have done some interviews with staff locally and then we're about to engage in some focus groups that involve staff from the main facility and Chittenden really to to discuss you know what people in the staff in main think about some of the practices that they're doing there what so one of the things that we were struck by when we went to Maine was how different the facility was how different it felt um it uh you know didn't have barbed wire it did it had like a six-foot fence um it uh people you know could come and go sort of somewhat freely women left during the day to go to work release some of them they had a dog training program but it looked more like a um dentist's office or college campus dorm um and and you know had wooden doors not big sector it was very different from a prison although they do have a secure part of it you know another part of the facility that's the secure part and they house uh I think up to a hundred women there and um they built it for ten million dollars so um one of the things that um they said there the the leader Amanda Wolford um she anecdotally said that staff are much happier they have uh better sort of wellness outcomes fewer um applications for family leave um fewer sick call out days and you know these sort of good results that um but she didn't have any hard data on it so we proposed would you like us to analyze those data for you and she said yes so uh main corrections said yes and um so we're we're waiting for those administrative data but one of the things that we want to compare is those kinds of outcomes for staff and um things like you know disciplinary infractions use of segregation contraband things like that um between their secure parts of the facility for women and then the reentry facility and then also between those and um our facility because the populations are fairly similar you know it's about a you know a hundred women um similar kinds of profiles in terms of their criminal histories and things like that um so once we have those data um I think we will have a better sense of whether that is a path to pursue and talk to the staff and so Teresa has rightfully been moving um you know thoughtfully and carefully um and wants to know if the data bear out what we think we see and what we anecdotally hear um so one of the things that um is different about Maine is that they use agendas could I interject Kathy when you're speaking um could you could you be specific about when you're talking about the main prison and the main reentry facility just so that we're with you um sure yeah because I I just want to make sure that I'm following you yeah so the so that's fine it's fine the main reentry facility is um sort of up the hill from the other prison which actually their tour of their prison their secure place which is called Maine Correctional Center I think um it has both men and women in different units but it's like a walking tour of the history of corrections you know starting from early 1900s to sort of what people were doing in the 70s what they were doing in the 90s so all together um there are three women's facilities at at this site in Wyndham and the reentry one is separate and that's the newer one um that looks more Scandinavian um but there are two other women's facilities units sorry that are in the other prison one is um much more secure and and traditional looks like you know any of our prisons like looks like Springfield where you walk into a unit and there's two levels of cells and you know sort of a day room area that kind of thing and there's not much going on for the women there and then there's another unit that's less secure so that would be medium I think security women and they have it has much more natural light they can go outside there's a little bit of gardening and everything is there on the unit the case workers are there um medical you know so um it's you don't have to move through the facility to get the care that you need there's um you know the case workers are on site there and maybe Teresa can talk more about that from a you know pragmatic standpoint but um and then so women can quickly transition to the reentry facility and what's interesting about it is people can stay there for five years so it's not the kind of thing where people go just for the last six months or you know something like that they can you know in theory serve their whole time there in the reentry facility does that answer your question and Kathy this may be a good time to interject with a question what determines um when a person when a woman gets into that reentry bed um you just said they can move from the harder incarceration buildings to the reentry facility or they could come directly to the reentry facility so what classification or what determines a person being in the reentry do you know most the vast majority of the women there or maybe all of them are uh minimum security minimum risk i mean the reentry piece in the reentry piece so um the the idea is that everyone would transition at some point you would move through these um you know if assuming you're going to be released um but what they um even if someone gets removed from the reentry facility back to the more secure one because of infractions or something they try they say that they try to move them back as soon as possible so the idea is to get virtually all the women into the reentry um facility at some point um anyone who would be eligible for release okay so they have about a hundred beds in their reentry yes facility so i just want to put this out there and Al Cormier or Teresa Messier Teresa Messier is the superintendent of the Chittenden facility correct yes okay and um i just want to get out there in terms of security levels because i want folks to be very very clear what determines a security level within a correctional facility um you've got minimum security you've got medium security and then the more stricter one is maximum security we in Vermont really don't have a maximum security we may have a closed custody unit that might qualify for that but we don't have high level maximum security we have mostly medium and then minimum a person's security level i want to be very very clear on this and i'm assuming in Maine it's the same a person's security level is not based on the crime that they've been convicted of i think we have to really keep that in mind because everyone thinks your security level is based on the crime that you committed it is based on your and i'm putting a very simple and al way in on this um it's really based on how a person is behaving in the incarcerated setting in terms of what your level of custody is so you could have the most heinous crime and be convicted for 50 years to life but you could be a model inmate that you're abiding by the rules you're not an agitator you're not creating trouble so you might end up being in a minimum security and on the flip side you could constantly be breaking rules but you didn't really have that high of an offense you did you were convicted um but in terms of your behavior would be um you're not abiding by the rules and and really putting the jeopardy of the security of the facility and other inmates and staff at risk so you'd be at a higher security level is that fair to say now yeah that's that's accurate we use uh what we call the cvs which is our conviction violation summary which is our classification tool currently so upon intake somebody is is reviewed through that that classification tool to determine are they minimum custody medium custody close custody um you know initially somebody coming in for let's say the charge of murder may be a medium custody um but over time good behavior we you know that that classification tool is is redone and and somebody that does have an aggravated domestic assault or a conviction of murder would be a minimum custody inmate um again based really based on the behavior inside the institution we are currently in the process of revamping our classification system um so we've we've looked at this for years we've adopted the federal model of classification um from the federal bureau of prisons tweaked a little bit for Vermont specifics that policy is currently being drafted and written now but that will I think will give us a better more accurate representation of the custody levels within the Vermont Department of Corrections once we get that in place and I'm hoping with them within the next year we'll we'll have that fully functional okay so Kathy is that fair to say what you saw in Maine it's the same for minimum and medium um yes and no um the uh one of the things that was really striking about Maine is that they use a gender specific risk assessment tool and a classification tool and you know so they most of their women are minimum uh minimum risk whereas most of the women I think Teresa correct me if I'm wrong at Chittenden would be considered medium and one of the things that we're interested to find out is if if the Vermont women were reassessed based on a gender specific tool would it change their uh risk classification and their um their risk profile and their risk classification because um uh it factors in different aspects of of you know incarcerated women both their pathways to prison the importance of family as um sort of protective factors that that uh you know minimize the risk of reoffending and things like that so um and I in the department is exploring um different tool options now um and Bill Sol who is assisting Teresa with um you know sort of enacting some of the recommendations from the DRM report is looking into different tools and so I think what will be interesting is to see how that how or if it changes the classification in which case you know their certain kinds of practices might be more feasible like women leaving during the day for work release um if they had a different um risk profile or classification is it okay if I add something yes I don't need to interrupt Kathy no you're intended this year yes yourself and and I do have a question too in terms of what Al Cormier just spoke about about we look looking at those classifications is that tied in with what was just mentioned about really looking with what happens in Maine with their classification and if that will play out in the Chittenden facility right well I think one of the important things is to get to the reentry um facility in Maine you have to be within five years of your men and um so within five years of your men and then they start working on reentry skills and really kind of working on those types of you know like what your needs are so they focus on that kind of thing and it doesn't mean that they go out to work right away it's when they're one year from their men is when they go out to work but in the meantime not only do they work on their reentry skills but they also um go across the road which is a horse farm which they can volunteer their time there I just wanted to um say that that's very hopeful and I think at this facility we have detainers too so that's kind of a lot of why there's medium um so I just and we have federal inmates as well so how many federal inmates do you have at the Chittenden facility we can have up to 10 I think we have like six and those women directly just women right yes only women right now we don't have any men at all right I know that sometimes you have folks that are arrested that come in and and are there at the facility for a day or two so that's why I was just wondering currently currently 11 right now uh federal yeah federal inmates yeah federal female inmates yeah 48 males and 48 males and 11 female from the federal system right now and the other federal for males are held up in St. Albans the majority of them yes just so members can have that so I find it's interesting to get to the reentry building in Maine you need to be within five years of your minimum okay so we have some questions here Kurt and then Sarah the question for um Mr. Cormier if um I've heard the term I believe it's level C or class C so and if an inmate is determined to be level C is that what you're talking about when you're talking about classifications or is that something different it's it's the same but different so we have our classification of minimum medium and close custody a level C designation is is looked at for high risk offenders returning to the community those are usually our listed offenses high risk sex offenders high risk violent offenders they'll get that level C designation around program eligibility reentry eligibility services provided to them before they're they're released notifications to law enforcement so it's it goes into the classification but it's it's really a separate designation really based on the offense all right are there other levels there must be besides C there isn't there used to be but we've we've you know the level A level B is really out it's we really just we kept that level C designation for the high risk okay yeah I'd like to talk about that some other time if you understand a little bit more how how that works but this is probably not the time to do that thanks Sarah so I'm just hoping that we can shift the conversation back on some of the to hear Kathy and Abby talk about their research work and how they're working with DOC I know all of these specifics are important but this is kind of a unique opportunity to have everybody in the room together and so I wanted to ask you know about how well this work that you're doing is informing policy but also you know I think it's no no secret that we're also looking at how to replace that are you know the women's facility and facilities and looking at reentry so I want to kind of push and ask you know are you part of is the work the research work that you're doing is that part of the conversations and that's I guess for you Kathy and Abby as well as for Al Cormier and Teresa just it seems to me the question there's so much about what we want to do aspirationally with our facilities and there's the facilities are really holding us back as to we know this about our programs and what we can do in terms of rehabilitation and for both for the people who are there and it's also a pretty challenging work environment for the people who work in there so I really want to hear about how your work and your research and your policy work is is and how you're working with DOC and what else you'd like to see you know would you like to be more involved would you or are you already involved in some of those conversations well I can speak to the women's prison and then I'll have Abby can pivot to talking about print um so um you know we haven't been included in the conversations about the about the facility proposals um and would certainly be willing to um and and hope that some of the findings that that you know we're all coming up with together would inform that um you know I will say that um in in my conversations with Teresa and looking at the the literature on um you know gender responsive best practice um Teresa certainly is is trying to enact all the best practices all the things that show up on the list and one of the things that Chittenden does that is very much in a line with best practices the kids apart program and having that space you know um but um and one of the things just people should know that has come out of our conversations in our learning community with with Maine is uh that we're developing a pilot unit that we're calling a restorative unit which really is just a very gender responsive best practice unit and the plan is to it create measures along the way um about you know how would we know it was a success what are the things we should track and and we will develop both you know some sort of objective administrative data measures but also subjective measures about like how how do staff feel about it how do people on the inside feel about it do they feel better is it a better environment you know and then what are the outcomes um and and at the same time Teresa is developing a different model for discipline because the discipline practices are are very much um based on sort of what we know about you know they're gender neutral and so um you know she's creating an incentive system um and but trying to I mean I really appreciate the fact that she consults with me because I can send her literature and she reads it and we talk about it and it's you know it's a great relationship I think um so the um so I would say that it is very much informed by the literature once we have more of the research you know the actual data then we will use that to move forward but the plan the the idea of the restorative unit is that if it has the good outcomes that we think that it would then the question is for doc you know whether to scale it to the rest of the facility or to the rest of the facilities and that that would be information that we would share with them and they you know would decide what to do with it um Abby do you want to talk about prin? Sure so um for the record I'm Abby Crocker I'm a research professor of statistics at the University of Vermont I work with Kathy on the justice research initiative at UVM as well as our colleagues at the Vermont Law School and University of San Diego at the National Center on Restorative Justice and um so it like Kathy mentioned um as you know sort of independent researchers at UVM were involved in lots of activities some with doc and some without doc um and these two initiatives here with a women's prison project and the PRIN are sort of doc partnerships and um I'll let my colleagues at doc talk more about what PRIN is and um then but I'll briefly just say that PRIN is Prison Research Innovation Network and it's a five state consortium um with partners at the Urban Institute with funding from Artal Adventures Foundation um to to study prison environments uh to make them more humane and rehabilitative and the approach is to do this in a data driven way so that um you gather information study it learn from it and test out innovations that could then be scaled more broadly um what's interesting about this approach is um a highlight on using community-based participatory research methods which means um our approach is intended to be grounded in the voices of those with lived experience those who truly work in the facility or are incarcerated in the facility and I'll note that the effort is really designed to improve prison environments for both those who work in the facility as well as are incarcerated in the facility and our role as the independent research partners in this endeavor is really to collect and provide the data um you know for folks in DOC and the state to decide what to do with it and how do we use this information to drive policy moving forward and so what we've been doing is part of this effort so far which you can imagine is complicated a bit because of a viral pandemic which makes accessing prisons um sort of tough but I will say what we've done so far is um we've done about 30 interviews with faculty with staff and incarcerated folks inside southern state correctional facility which is the the pilot facility where we're we're um sort of testing testing innovations that could be potentially expanded statewide so we've done about 30 interviews and focus groups and we use that information to develop a survey um and so the survey is really intended to be like something we give to all all staff and all incarcerated folks inside the prison um really to give us a broad understanding of what it's like in the facility and so between sort of those interviews those stories um the survey as well as some administrative data analysis we're hoping to get sort of a picture of what what's like what it's like there um to to help inform what innovations and changes should be made what's interesting to note I'd say um you know we're at the point where we have done all the interviews we've reached saturation which means in our interviews and focus groups we're not hearing new information to include in the survey um we've developed the survey we've had it reviewed with um partners who like research partners who are inside the facility we're working collaboratively with incarcerated folks as well as staff um so we have this really awesome survey that that really speaks to you know the the the environment inside the facility and we're planning to have it planning to administer it soon um really sort of depending depending on you know some review processes as well as sort of COVID and um I think that survey results are going to be really telling and one of the things I would just note as this sort of adds to this sort of broader conversation is there are big sections in the survey about mental health physical health health and well-being complex needs of those inside the facility we have a whole section on adverse childhood experiences and mainly it's of interest because the survey was developed you know based on these interviews and conversations inside the facility and and it's of note you know because you know as we're thinking about all these projects coming together and the larger conversation about where to move moving forward and the idea of the print in terms of you know prison environments for those who are incarcerated and work there um you know what 100% supportive of making environments good for the people who are there but it also raises the question of why are they there and you know these ideas around you know adverse childhood experiences and you know these complex needs of folks inside the facility can how can that contribute to a broader conversation about where it's best to meet those needs and I appreciate the idea of thinking sort of long term about building facilities to support those who are in them but if you also think about what's driving why people are in there um you know maybe there's an opportunity to address those needs more upstream um and I think this kind of survey can help quantify that conversation and ground it so you know if is it is it you know and that's the question for this group is you know it's a better to build a big facility and deal with problems of you know that or is it better to deal with some problems upstream and where do we put resources in the in the entire system to do that so you know for me as a sort of a public health researcher that's a huge interest um and and it's also sort of where I I think of this our role in the print can help add to that conversation and um and of note with this survey that we're getting ready to administer sort of the intention is we started in southern we administer it on an annual basis to see how we can see change over time and then we explore the possibility of adapting it and expanding it more statewide to go to all facilities make sure it's appropriate in different facilities and then you can get a broader statewide view so um we're we're we're at that point and I'd say that's how it's sort of potentially can contribute to the the broader conversation and then um I'll let Brad and Al speak more about print so before we go there one thing I'm finding people are freezing up and stopping is it my internet or is it happening to everyone yes mine's good yours is good mine one of some people are no some people are yes they might be with the weather anyway um I'm wondering Abigail about on the question end that was the very first part to develop your survey yep and anything really come to light that surprised you that was a pretty constant theme and how folks answered those questions um I will say that there's something that was really interesting off so we haven't we haven't administered the survey but we did these interviews and so um and we do plan to share the results of all of this in a broad audience soon and the soon always changes depending on when we get in the facility to administer it but um one thing I would say that was surprising to me and Kathy may have more to say to this as well is how much empathy um and existed between staff and incarcerated folks and consistent themes um around recognizing the stresses for both staff and incarcerated folks so it it's you know in these initial phases it spoke to the opportunity of potential interventions that could actually make the environment better for all and um and they there seemed to be a lot of overlap there the other was the recognition on the complex needs of folks in the facility and and and what is actually driving those and and and a consistent sort of idea around um you know there's that balance in the conversation about you know somebody is here in front of us and we need to help them and support them versus why are they here in front of us and and what can we do sort of upstream to you know way upstream you know you know I think about sort of the idea around sort of you know children of incarcerated parents high risk of coming being the next generation in the same facility and you know where where upon that spectrum do you actually try to stop them from coming into the facility so if you think about it like if we go status quo we do nothing in that upstream we probably will have more people coming in the facility but we can predict they're going to be on and and I think that's that's of interest um and that came up pretty strongly so I think that sort of complex needs and the physical and mental health impacts of of incarceration on both staff and and incarcerated folks themselves are pretty strong right so we have a question here car Oh he I guess this is for Dr Crocker if you um this survey one of the things that we're having well at least I'm having difficulty with I think I can say we is um with this potential new women's reentry facility is determining the size of it and do you do you think there are how many beds it would have do you think the survey would be able to inform that sort of a decision um you know I think what I appreciate about this conversation is it recognizes all the moving parts that are going on some of which Kathy and I are involved in and some of which we aren't and so I think this survey could if administered in Chittenden could help inform you know why folks are there um how maybe best needs are would be addressed and coupled with some of the other activities we've talked about specifically around sort of a gender responsive classification tool I think they could contribute greatly to the conversation um one more follow-up on that then we have quite a few offenders rather than inmates offenders who are in community housing and under community supervision would the survey be uh used for them as well um the intention right now is not for community supervision um no in this sense but I hesitate because it's like you know it's all part of the same sort of spectrum where you end up today is right tomorrow and and so the idea around sort of opportunities to have conversations like this one where things come together and we see those possibilities is is welcome because I mean we have people who are on furlough which is supposed to be just an extension of the prison walls so it would be nice to have the same sort of information for people who are on furlough uh so that we could determine whether they should be on furlough or something else but okay thank you very much yeah well I just wanted to add that um you know there's an interesting um sort of accidental experiment happening right now with the release of people during the pandemic um you know I I think it'd be interesting to look and see if crime went up you know and if it didn't it might suggest that more people could be supervised in the community and I think also once like this gender specific tool is um adopted uh it may show that many more women can be supervised in the community um and uh and don't need to be necessarily housed I mean I'm that's a that's an empirical question I'm not saying I think that's true because I don't know um but I think that there are some you know interesting data points available to the committee you know from that and from seeing what happens to the crime rates with the release on the pandemic and then also if DOC based on the justice reinvestment too um you know has different alternatives to furlough and and the good time rule you know it will be interesting to see what the impact is on public safety and and that would inform the size of the facilities I think you know like like well I've I've been trying to work a little with emergency room data to see whether there's more people coming into emergency rooms because of possibly being released to the community too soon or something thanks yeah I'll just add one comment to that I mentioned about the emergency room um is oftentimes other in other communities have done studies on emergency remuse and folks since incarcerated and the overlap is huge and so you know there's a community I think it's in South Carolina who did a study examining exactly that like where our sort of target target intervention opportunities and so the mention of emergency remuse just made me think of that so it's interesting so we have another question and I've blocked off my video because I'm afraid my internet has been unstable because everyone seems to be freezing up here and there uh Karen yes so I'm trying to um understand the survey so I appreciate it of how it's um being developed and plan to try to roll it out in different facilities and um I'm hoping to confirm my understanding so the goal is to implement the survey at facilities to collect data that then could inform potential innovations or initiatives that could better improve the environments of the facilities is that correct so it there's not like a set known that you're trying to test it it's collecting data and then that will inform how you create initiatives so that seems like that would be a time process too like we don't know what it is that those innovations and ideas could be until we collect that data and see um and I am curious um seeing the head nodding with that then of how with our um you know planned rollout for changing the facilities and remind like you know of if there's a I guess it is all connected of like how is this informing it so maybe that's a question to DOC of how this data is informing um the plans to create new facilities or redesign them because it seems timely yeah I I can I can take that it really is I mean it's it's a cyclical motion right I mean everything is just working in conjunction with one another and when when Kathy started talking she mentioned not really being involved with with policy discussions but everything that is happening here is informing our policy and it is informing future operations and future programs inside of our facility so as these surveys are conducted we look at the data from this restorative justice unit within Chittenden we look at the data from the PRIN project in Springfield which which Brad I think when Brad speaks to PRIN it'll it'll bring it all together about the survey data and what we're trying to collect but this really will inform us as to where we go in next steps and and as we talk about a potential women's facility being built and in a reentry facility this all of this data will will help us determine what is the size needed what are the programs needed um now we're talking about this this 1.5 million for program design for this new facility potentially that will assist us in in determining what what are the programs we will be reaching out to other reentry facilities across the country to talk about policies and programs and operational needs for such a facility in Vermont um our work with a moss group right now that is ongoing we've already and I know Teresa's done some a lot of work with the moss group and I think was just in in conversation with uh I think it was the commissioner in Alabama about the women's programs down there so you know we're we're talking nationally now and a lot of this data will drive what the future of Vermont DOC looks like for sure so if I can give kind of a process layout so what Al just talked about in terms of bringing all of this information that's happening with the UVM research the print projects reaching out to other states to see what they're doing DOC is then going to be having a better idea in terms of what programs what opportunities could exist within corrections and within those facilities going forward what then happens is DOC will be talking with BGS because BGS is the construction end and they don't know what to construct until DOC says this is what our program needs are going to be and DOC will then take that and then start scoping out or developing the layout of facilities square footage all of those nuances so we're at a great opportune time here where we know we're replacing the women's correctional facility we know that we also know that some of our other facilities male facilities are totally outdated the buildings are in repair need repair and they're limiting what programming DOC can do so we are at this prime opportunity to figure out what our policy will be for corrections over the next 50 years that will be determined not only by the program needs the DOC wants to initiate but how your buildings are built to accommodate that because your buildings once they're built they're going to be there for 50 years and and the beauty of where we are right now is developing these initiatives and developing the buildings are all going to be done in phases you're not going to build all these buildings at once it's impossible but you start out with replacing the women's facility that leads you to the discussion of the other facilities and how all of that comes together and that's going to be what we're going to be dealing with a lot come next january so this is all laying the foundation the hawk report lays the foundation for all those options and figure out which option you really want to circle around and then you bring in these policy decisions and program decisions into those options for the buildings it's all connected does that make sense to the committee that whole circle because that's what we're dealing with in this committee here so al you had a good transition over to bradley in terms of print and how that's being carried out so bradley i'll turn it over to you if you could just introduce yourself for the record okay good morning um bradley good hail i am the prison research innovation network manager otherwise known as the prem for vermont department of corrections uh based currently out of the southern state correctional facility um i will apologize a little bit i have a prepared statement that i wrote uh there'll be some redundancy that you heard from uh professors kathy and abbey but um i will uh if you'll indulge me a minute i'll i'll start with this so i'll give you a quick overview of uh print and where it started and what the actual goals are so in 2019 arnold ventures uh they had a contributor diana dia bruzzo she stated when it comes to prison reform the people deciding new policies have typically never stepped foot in a prison cell but that's changing new efforts seek out the voices of those inside prisons staff and incarcerated to help shape what the future could look like so this statement reflects the larger part of arnold ventures broader prison reform strategy which is dedicated to safely reducing the nation's prison population increasing data research on prisons reorienting prison culture and conditions to support human potential and dignity and improving preparation for success so back in january 13 2020 the urban institute which is the grantee for arnold ventures announced the steps towards reforming nation prison systems uh through the print project of prison research innovation network and they named five states to partner with those being vermont misery colorado iowa and delaware uh who we as a project uh selected project people will um work to establish policies practices to advance more transparency accountability and innovation within our own department of corrections uh and to be analyzed in cross-site comparison to kind of take a somewhat national snapshot of prison culture um and i will caveat that we got to remember that this is a study of understanding prison culture and you know culture consists of shared beliefs values and assumptions of a group of people and those are learned shared change over time and not always rational when we view it from the outside so this is a this is a larger project that's looking uh within which goes along to building new facilities and looking at the people who are incarcerated and also work in there because that we're going to get a better informed picture from that perspective so right now print has four is a four-plus year journey for vermont we're expected to be studying at southern for the next several years and some of the major goals of print is to research and improve prison culture operations and design to enhance the correctional environment develop better understanding of prison environments and the relationship to safety and well the well-being of the people who work there and the people who are incarcerated there uh enhance the capacity of data collections to promote transparency and accountability and to design implement and evaluate data-driven evidence based operational and programmatic innovations to improve and support rehabilitation and self-betterment so that is the overview of what print is from Arnold ventures and the urban institute who are partnered with so now what does print vermont look like so the print project is a partnership that consists of we have a technical assistant team from the urban institute consisting of a senior policy fellow jessie janetta a policy assistant lauren ferrell a research of analyst rudy perez and a governmental affairs coordinator aristotle jones uh we also have our research academic research team which you uh met earlier in there the dr fox and dr crocker and our doc team consists of chief cormier who is our print chief monica weaver who is the director of administrative services uh jessica king more who is a doc lead research analyst myself who i am the onsite manager for or the prem and we also have two other partners uh at the selected facility which is southern state and that is mike lyon the superintendent and mackayla merrill the insistent superintendent there um and those individuals we all comprise the project steering committee um which we meet biweekly to go over uh movement direction where we've been where we're going and to keep the project moving we also have an executive committee that has comprised of stakeholders which includes the commissioner of corrections uh members of the vermont legislature uh previously incarcerated people and other uh non-governmental organizations that provide social services so we have a breadth of individuals that also give us different lenses and perspectives and moving forward um so to give you a view of the last year phase one over the last year is consisted of as you heard uh doctors fox and crocker in the facility uh conducting their interviews uh creating and establishing community research councils uh utilizing some of the incarcerated persons and uh staff members and which helped that inform them and create the climate survey that you heard them talk about and that survey will be administered to everybody within the facility and that is to ensure that every uh voice within the facility is heard um you heard uh covid prevented uh some of the in phase and we did move to an online platform where uh uvm was able to conduct the the rest of their interviews and their community research councils via teams uh with the with the incarcerated population um and as you heard the survey that they developed is now in uvm's irb process the institutional review board and upon uh coming out of that review hopefully the administration will be uh soon hopefully in may i believe is when we uh plan on administering that survey to both populations um so during the same time the administrative services division met with the uvm team to build a list of data extracts for the administrative data analysis um um and that information was pulled from the department's uh records management system jail tracker or oms um i believe if if what i'm told is right this the contract between from odd doc and uvm for this data extract is the first formal such contract the state um has entered into which uh is giving us a foundation and moving forward with uh future future research endeavors uh it did take some time to finalize that contract being the first one in the state but we are working diligently a lot of the requested uh extracts of the target population from southern have been delivered and now we are working towards uh gathering health information and hr data to go along with that for um the upcoming data walk at the end of phase one um i will note as this as we've talked previously about the interaction between projects the architecture that was utilized for the data extracts for the print project will be the same ones used for a lot of the women's prison extracts so the development of those extracts with um um the administrative services division will go forward and and be utilized in future projects so it we are we are we are seeing benefits from the print project that will be utilized uh well into the future so that as you heard um doctors fox and crocker mentioned that uh the administrative data will be analyzed along with the survey data and um will be presented in a data walk to hopefully show themes and patterns of challenge within uh our correction system and from that phase two begin which will be a process of developing recommendations for innovation from that uh from their analysis and setting uh evaluated metrics in order to measure the success within southern as we move forward over the next four years and as you heard the successful innovations will hopefully be brought statewide over the next several years i will note over the last seven months it has become very apparent that the print project um is going to interact with probably i've noted at least 70 percent of the ongoing projects and initiatives within boc the print will have some sort of either captured data or resulting analysis that will help further uh the other projects within the department but some of the some of the current things that we have done uh we are currently building our relationship with ubm and with other research entities um we're breaking down uh departmental data silos and developing new policies and as you've heard mentioned some of the print that we know will be benefiting current initiatives such as the women's prisoners project the hok feasibility study the office of professional standards and the educational uh program process from the information gathered uh from the surveys the the ad the admin data um i personally am working on a more intricate picture of all the doc projects and how they interact and how they shared resources and if there's any competition between the two and that is an ongoing conversation um also being placed in the facility i have the ability to observe um some income what i call data gaps or data deficit is what data that we are actually collecting within the facility that may not understand how to use yet or how to inform decisions and what data that we could be collecting and where to store it so a side part of my job within the facility is to to observe and report on those data issues that we can enhance and help our decision-making capabilities and data that we may not be collecting that we could for future projects um that's a that's a quick snapshot overview but i will i will note that there is a print informational section on the vermont department corrections website it's near the bottom you can click on that it's got links to urban our executive committee meetings and uh that some of the goings on so you're more than welcome to uh to view that as well and i will end there so bradley thank you um in those uh i know covid was an issue but in those interviews or connections that you had with both inmates and staff is there anything that really surprised you or came to the surface that maybe we need to pay more attention to or just something that may have surprised you so i am not part of the interview process uh with the research team to keep the confidentiality but my own interactions with staff and the incarcerated persons there um i will reiterate what uh dr fox says there is um there is a lot of empathy both between staff and the incarcerated i know in some of my talks with incarcerated persons that they are sympathetic to the stresses of the employees at southern uh and see that and identify that um i think that was the biggest the biggest turn for me not coming from corrections coming from outside and having an objective um viewpoint the other thing is the the atmosphere within southern southern state correctional has a vast um has multiple missions there are living units for acute mental health uh transition uh mental health transitional unit there's an aids and infirmed we have two general population uh units one for detain one for sentence uh we have a close custody we do have the largest infirmary in i believe in a facility so there there are so many missions within southern itself i just to see the complexity and how it interacts and how it moves it is is is amazing and that the staff there has really stepped up over the pandemic to keep that facility running and like i said the the interaction between the empathy between both uh the incarcerated population the staff is what really impressed me most that's great thank you uh we do have a question karen yes thank you this is all really helpful to hear what's going on and how this can potentially inform um the work that's happening in doc and i especially appreciate um how you've described the different projects with their kind of guiding principles for each of them like i think um rather you're just sharing like with print it's safely reduced prison population the rehabilitation there were some others which helps keep me focused of like yes these are the goals that we are working on in these projects and so my question is actually to um al i'm wondering if you can share with doc like what are what are the guiding principles maybe keeping it specific to the women's facility and thinking about this redesign in a new facility a new reentry what would you say how is doc defining their guiding principles for this because i think that's part of where we're at is like that uncertainty of like are these being transferred to doc or they're different guiding principles what are doc's guiding principles for you know the fate of the women's correctional facility thank you you know what we're looking at our principles is inclusivity inviting environment for as much as it can be inside of a correctional facility um it's really just i can't really say anything other than inviting right i mean we want people to feel comfortable living there and marking there and right now there's a lot of stress there's a lot of that dynamic between us and them that that has been consistent with corrections in all agencies across the country and dr fox mentioned our trip to connecticut last year and we really saw a difference in that true program down there where staff and and the incarcerated population were working living talking playing games together i mean it was just it was it was an unbelievable environment and that's really where that's our guiding principle for for where the department is is to humanize the experience of the population we don't want to see the incarcerated population as inmates they're they're people their brothers their sisters their fathers their mothers they're they're somebody's family it's the same with our staff you know breaking down that that stereotype of of that six foot six correctional officer that's just out to move somebody from from one cell to the next their their social workers their their mental health clinicians their mentors their supporters that's the guiding principle for us in moving forward with all of our facilities and and then part of our retention policies that we're working on now is keeping staff that are happy that are healthy and that can translate that lifestyle and balance to that incarcerated population thank you that's helpful and i and i do wonder if there is an opportunity to like like you said get some more definition to that so it is like it would be great if gender responsive was one for the women's facility or those types of things and so i think that give us a lens to look into the redesign work of like how how are we meeting the targets yeah and the gender response is a big piece and i think tricia can speak to this more but she's currently working with a moss group in the national institute of corrections on the safety matters program and we're actually having treason and two of her staff will be trained in the safety matters training as trainers to deliver to the staff inside of inside of chitin and that's also something that we're going to be looking to incorporate into our correctional academy as well because we focused on on the women's facility but we have to understand that we have women brought into all of our facilities as it takes whether they're there for a day or two days there they're still coming into our facility and people need to understand the victimization in the background of the women's population and how we treat them because it is it is completely different again whether it's a year or a day we have to understand the dynamics of that that women's population um and the assessment we we're meeting again next week we've we've already started conversations on the warna it's called w rna is the women's risk needs assessment um so we've started looking into that um bill sol is working on that that assessment um we'll be meeting with our program folks next week to discuss further whether that's an addition to the oras that we use now the ohio risk assessment survey or if it's you know just stand alone if it's in conjunction what we've got some work to do with that but that is again something we're looking at um so there's a lot happening and you know brad talked about his the other work he's doing with the the project lists and and I think that may be something that this committee would be interested in seeing it at a later day but we've got somewhere around 66 different specialized projects going on inside of corrections right now um and brad's put together a list with kind of a spider web of how all these projects are connected whether it be friend DRM policy development medical but the way those intertwine with each other and the overlap and the connections to everything is it's a very impressive model to look at um and and I think it would be I think this committee would find it interesting to see that that presentation at some point and just put that out there but um definitely a lot going on right now so we have a couple more questions sarah and then kurt sarah oh great this is this is more a comment but I think it's really exciting to hear about this work and I think the the wider world beyond this commute this committee it does not know so much about the the innovative work that is happening um around policies and and and thinking and I'm and I'm thinking as we are working together I think I um with with DOC to to really find a path forward for our facilities you know what Representative Dolan was asking about is like what are our guiding principles I think you have them I hear them come through in the testimony that you give us it would be really helpful I think to to see that on on the page and it could help us really build support uh for the work and and also deeper understanding for the work that is going on so I just want to say you know because I'm really excited to hear about how this your UVM is a we're utilizing at our state university as a research partner and connecting us with what's going on nationally and in New England and how you think it's really interesting to hear you broadly talk about what's going on um and the value of being based at the facility and then hearing um and I'd like to hear more about how you when you do that work about how this work touches all of the different areas within DOC I think our committee would be really interested in that but more my point is you know maybe you can help us um build the build the strong value statement for why you know how we are approaching this work um because I think we see it in this committee but I'm we I think we could be partners in helping our colleagues see it and understand it so I think to add to that sir I appreciate that and that's something that in our partnership with the Moss group um they've been working with our office of professional standards and compliance and developing a mission and vision statement for that group which will be expanded to the entire department um so as we bring that together and then we find a new director of OPS um which is is going out for recruitment this week I believe um you know that that is that is work that we are doing with the Moss group to change our mission and vision because it has changed from the early 90s when it was first written um and and that will include a guiding principle for for where we see ourselves going so that is that is something that that definitely looking forward to sharing with all of you yeah because I just want to say it's pretty exciting the Moss group is a nationally recognized um group that does this work around addressing sexual misconduct and all this you know I mean it's really impressive that you're that you're you're working with them um so yeah so anyway thank you for the work that you're doing and I hope that we can you can help us by giving us um some of the language and vision so that we can help um and and amplifying this work great well Kurt and then Linda I know that this is really good to hear and I would love to see the some I'm I'm big on diagrams so I I'd love to see all 66 of these things in the way that they interact uh that sounds fascinating um one of my concerns and something which we seem to seem to keep running into is there's a lot of people a lot of projects that are requesting data from doc and uh my personal feeling is that the resources that we've put into data collection and analysis the number of people that doc has doing this is lacking um you know I'd really like to see us bolster up that support and get a few more data analysts in there and people who could provide the kind of data that not only you people are asking for but um well we had the rdap report and things like that that everybody wants more data uh and I'm kind of a loaded question but what is your experiences with doc in obtaining the kind of data that you're trying to get you know or make the changes in their oms system that would uh record and produce the kind of data that that you need in order to do the analysis has that gone smoothly or uh do you see what I mean what the kind of question I'm asking it is loaded but maybe I could be convinced otherwise say no everything's fine I'd like some input on that so who wants to tackle that one I will turn it I will turn it to uvm but I will say that we are in the process of recruiting for another data analyst within that unit because of the data that is being requested and and where we are moving with the department so we are adding another position there um and then I'll turn it over to Abby to answer that yeah I um I appreciate the question and I you know I think that I really appreciate all the the work that doc has done to move us to the point we are today um and echo some of the hurdles to get here and I'll say like when we first started talking about data sharing with doc for for improvement and um it was in I think it was in May of 2019 and to actually get sort of the you know then we got the grant um to do the print in um I think it was November of 2019 and which started in January and it took us a while to then figure out well what are the data elements how do we move that process forward and together with our partners at doc we created a list of all the data elements that would be needed to help drive this forward and I think we had that finalized in July of 2020 and um and then it was a part of solidifying the the contract so that we could actually see the data and start moving it and that contract was finalized in I think October of 2020 um and then we started to see our first extracts um around some sort of basic demographics information coming in I think it was the end of December 2020 and and we started to move through more extracts we're building on them slowly um and and I think it's it's been a it you know it for the long term it will be a great process because like Brad mentioned um you know once the extracts are developed once hopefully it will be smooth to then send the next one and so we've moved through um some demographics and facility movement so we got our first extract on the use of disciplinary reports the other day we're looking to then start expanding that to some of the classifications um access to educational programming um health information as well so we still have a chunk that we haven't received but like Brad mentioned we've got a plan and a process to get there so I think it's it's slow going but hopefully the slow startup means faster and you know sets the system like we've talked about for for more repetition moving forward I'm not quite sure what the plan is for repeated extracts so we're starting right now with base what we're calling baseline data which is a snapshot of 2020 um and then we we hope to sort of get the next snapshot of you know and then how do we actually track change over time so we're trying to think about you know what how frequent can we get these data and how can we move them forward I'll I'll note that the um the data sets we are receiving are very comprehensive and so it's an amazing platform for future efforts and I'll note that I um I was speaking with the House Judiciary Committee yesterday about the Rdap suggestions with H317 specifically around maximizing you know administrative data for to address some you know real social issues in our in our state today and and I think this is a good start and um you know it like we all sort of acknowledge that it's a process it takes a while to get there um I just you know hope we keep on that track of moving it forward okay good I have one more question for Dr Fox hang on Kirk because I think Brad wants to weigh in and I think Kathy wants to weigh in huh good yeah I just want to uh to build on what Professor Crocker just mentioned um within DOC we are also under the JRI there is money to enhance and make changes to our jail tracker the OMS system to add capabilities um and that's what print is identifying we're identifying and other projects identifying what data that we have that we can capture and hold into jail tracker so uh under JRI we we there is money and there's an ongoing project to enhance um our records management system not only to collect data but to uh to be able to make those extracts so just to let you know there is an ongoing project that is increasing the data collection and uh shareability within OMS and then Kathy did you want to weigh in quickly I wanted to say that um that I'm I am not sure whether I mean I support the idea that DOC is hiring another data analyst for sure um but you know that part of the issue is that then DOC employees are producing all these extracts for other people um and I don't know if if the issue is um I mean you know that like it's staff time right so I don't know if it's that the that they need more analysts or if they need a different system you know a better upgraded system that would include you know courts and all kinds of other things or if there would be a way just like they're thinking about with RDAP to have an external facing data system de-identified right that researchers could tap into that wouldn't take so much staff time you know so there's a lot of different ways that could be that it could be imagined but it sounds like everybody who sort of recognizes the issue and is moving towards a solution so okay good if there is if there's anything that that we can do to further that process then with regard to data collection and and systems and things like that that would be would be good to know and I noticed the change in jail tracker on the website that apparently over the last eight months or so the website for DOC has changed jail tracker and although I find it actually a little more limiting but probably more secure but anyway my question for for Dr. Fox you mentioned the restorative unit is that a physical unit that is where a number of of inmates will be going through this process or is it the is it physical I guess is my question yes and Teresa should probably speak to that but her idea is to convert one of the existing units I think Delta maybe is that right yeah and and you know make it cozier homeier and then you know have staff dedicated staff and and you know sort of pilot and try some different policies and ways of interacting so Teresa do you want to say more no I think you said said it all it's it's one of the units that we have now it's that it's actually used for quarantine so we thought it'd be a perfect transition into making it more of a community type looking unit so and then yeah training staff and restorative justice you know principles and and and also the the women as well and that would probably have to wait until it's no longer needed as a quarantine potentially needed as a quarantine hoping soon okay good thank you and we have another question winter um thank you I'm trying to talk quickly before my dogs start barking again um thank you for this um so one of us the struggling metrics that I see that is critical to reentry success is actually post-incarceration employment opportunities and I'm wondering if you're going to be looking at that as well as release and reentry for more serious crimes and how because that's usually excluded as well and maybe and see how that is as well as adequate funding sources for community needs once people are back in the community and as well as visitation rights and how that interplays are you going to be incorporating that can you fill me in particularly on the post-incarceration employment opportunities thank you who wants to tackle that one Kathy or Al I would say Alan Teresa yeah I can take I can take the majority of that but I'll let Teresa talk to what's going on now with job training and some of the partnerships we have with Vermont Works for Women um and some of the uh the initiatives that are happening right now but but everything you spoke to Representative Sullivan is really around that that programming component piece as we move forward with with the reentry facility um you know the visitation pieces as you said is is a big piece of that our kids apart program is is going to be a huge component as we do that but as part of what what I foresee in a reentry facility is around you know kids being able to stay there with their moms kids being able to stay there with their dads in a male and female reentry facility so it is about that family reunification that's going to be a big piece for us job readiness right how to write a check how to how to do your taxes all of that how to how to do an interview so these are all components of what I envision and I think the department as a whole envisions for reentry facility is getting people ready to get back into the community um part of what you know with JRI and as we expand our resources and partnerships with with other agencies with other departments within AHS you know those are all things that we're going to be looking at we're we're doing a pilot project right now and uh and chintin trying to get that off the ground in at the Burlington P&P office with embedding a clinician into that office um assisting in resources getting the you know looking at the the community correctional officers in their role in assisting and getting people to to appointments and where they need to be and and providing them with resources and assistance for successful reentry so these these are all little things that are happening as a part of JRI as a part of our vision for moving forward with the department so again you know it just speaks to a lot of what's going on behind the scenes at the department and things that we will be looking to enhance and improve as we work towards both a new facility and a reentry facility have you actually worked with the community to establish business relationships for post-employment opportunities that or at least started to do some research to see which businesses across the state of Vermont might actually work with those reentry applicants yep yeah Teresa do you want to take that one yeah so the Vermont works for women um right now we're actually developing um one of the multi-purpose room is actually returning into a career resource center that Vermont works for women voc rehab and the community high school will work together just on employment skills and training job training um but also we do we have been doing like interviews like with rhino foods they've been hiring a lot of our women from doing interviews prior to being released so we have been doing a lot more work um and Vermont works for women is awesome and has done you know like they're developing the career resource center with me and kind of putting it together where you know they would actually be able to take use like tablets to actually instead bring in tools and they use the tablets and kind of like a pencil to would be like a knife like chopping skills and electronics you know electrician type skills without having to bring in the tools from the outside so it's worth so we are we are working on it and what about educationally um are you working to see which say professional opportunity somebody might be trained for other than just the GED at different levels that maybe there would be an issue if they got a license or professional license because of their history how to work to get that expunged and move forward to see which licenses might help them going forward for example whether they want to do beauty or they want to go into finance or whatever they would like to do and they get are they able to get licenses and are they able to forward with their goals is that feasible again that's the work that Vermont works for women does so um so it's purely Vermont works for women that you're depending on well not only Vermont works for women but we also work with John Howe from Vogue Rehab also comes in while he did prior to COVID and also um the community high school Vermont thank you and we have I think there's we've recently electricians right Teresa we had some three women that were certified as as electricians that got work on their release um that was a program that that we recently completed Dr. Fox teaches college level courses within the within the women's facility um so there there's a lot going on right now um from the community high school of Vermont our director Kim Bushey is working with Green Mountain Furniture around job training for individuals getting out in the uh in the Northeast Kingdom for manufacturing jobs with that company um so there are there are some initiatives that are occurring so we have another question oh Sarah sure it's kind of a follow-up to what Representative Sullivan was asking about I'm just curious um I think you'll hear in our committee um the the support or need you know concern around successful reentry into our communities um um and so I'm wondering if part of the research is if it's included in the research about how are we doing an analysis of our programs and um within corrections are they um you know kind of in tune with best practices are they successful are are they limited by our facilities um our current facilities and what could be needed things questions like that is that part of the the research because we know that there are what exists but we don't know what uh like um our chair said we're at kind of this really interesting moment where we can we have an opportunity here as we're imagining um how we are thinking forward with our corrections for the next 50 years really so who wants to tackle that one Bradley Kathy Kathy wait we don't um specifically um evaluate any of the programs that DOC offers I mean I believe Kim Bushey as the director of programming looks at the evidence base and and determines um you know what is the best program for dollars um our our surveys do ask a lot about programming um a lot because it came up as an issue um and uh you know we ask what what people want we ask what they you know think that they would need um and how they feel about their readiness to get out and all that kind of stuff so that will presumably inform some things uh going forward and um the other thing is that Teresa and I have been working on is a little bit of some other things with UVM that are just in the very early stages but there's someone trying to develop a working farm where the women would learn how to farm and then get some kind of a certificate through UVM and um so we're you know that's very early days just in the planning um but you know so there are other things like that and the other thing I just wanted to say is that one of the best investments I mean in corrections in terms of reducing recidivism is um higher ed but it's just very expensive um and but now that Congress has made incarcerated people eligible for Pell grants again which I believe is going to start up in fall of 2023 um that may be something that would be an option and um CCV is gearing up to start offering that sort of thing but it in terms of recidivism reduction it's one of the best investments um but uh but again it's just very expensive but anyway that's all I wanted to say so Kathy can I just ask a question about the Pell grants for folks who are incarcerated that will be starting up in a couple of years is it uh for folks who are sentenced or is it for folks who are not sentenced or I don't know I don't know the answer to that I assume it would be sentenced um uh just but I mean I think other people would be eligible but if you're only going to be there for you know two months then you wouldn't be able to complete a course or something um and um you know the fact that CCV will be offering it because they have this grant already ahead of that um where they can give Pell grants to people and you know CCV is a is a good you know less expensive alternative I think it's great that they are doing that um so I don't know the answer to your question though okay I'm just curious because sometimes on some of those uh federal programs or initiatives there's we don't always qualify because it's dependent on the definition of inmates or detainees so that's why Bradley did you want to weigh in yeah I just wanted to uh to mention that back to some of the the reentry stuff uh Kim Bushey is working at BGA grant now called ARIES the adult reentry and education grant so there is research and movement on looking at our reentry programs and education so that is ongoing now and Abigail you have I'm just not used to witnesses having their hands up usually we just go around and people just say oh I've got I'd like to weigh in so I have a gap right you know I just sparked um this train of conversation just sparked another another when you folks asked about things that came up during the interviews that maybe would be highlighted um programming and idle time was huge like what are we doing here what do we do all day um that is huge so I feel like I would be amiss to to not mention that in this conversation and that was at the Springfield facility right yeah yeah yeah because there isn't a work program or anything and there we've got 350 folks who are incarcerated there with a lot of different needs we do have a geriatric medical issue folks we have mental health folks general population detainees and that got in the construction for the money that a work program and building got cut out and it never got built so we've got 350 folks there with a lot of idle time on their hands which is not always good if you look in the the HOK study in the expansion of southern there is housing and also a training center I noticed that so we were very clear that that if we were going to expand southern we needed some type of vocational training program there that's a must so anything else from the committee anything else from the folks who came in this has been really informative um we're going to have a long process ahead of us in terms of just not replacing just replacing the women's facility going forward but also encompassing some of the bigger issues as well with the male facilities it's a long-term process it's not going to be decided overnight it's going to change as the process goes along and that may be good because a lot of the data that you're assimilating and working with is a process as Bradley said of three three to four years so that will really help inform us how best to go forward and we can incorporate quite a bit of this right now as we move forward with replacing the Chittenden facility and I think the one thing too that we need to be clear about with folks when we talk about replacing a facility I think folks think that we can get a shovel in the ground this summer and it's up and running within a few months unfortunately it does not work that way for many of us who have been in the world of construction and institutions committee it can take more years than you think and at this point we are at least two to three years out in terms of a brand new facility whatever that may be for a variety of reasons first you got to figure out where you're going to put it for that but and I don't want to put throw water on it because we are taking steps forward but I think that we have to be very clear about expectations so people are not disappointed when they say well it's a year now how come it's not up I think we really need to be realistic about the time frame for that not to put the damper on it please but just to be realistic so the public and our colleagues are not disappointed and that's the beauty of the work you folks are doing because you'll be getting more and more information as this goes along for that other questions Kathy did you want to make a statement you put something in the chat box here I just wanted to say that because of that you know realistic timeline on it replacing the facility that's one of the reasons that superintendent Messier didn't want to wait until there is a new facility to try different things to you know make positive innovations so that she could make a difference for the people you know who are there now and so I just wanted to give her credit for that and mention it's based on I think that realistic timeline great thank you and thank you superintendent Messier for doing that because that will also not only help in the short term for folks who are currently incarcerated as well as the stack but will also give us information as we move forward to designing a new facility what is really needed in that design so that that would be a big help I want to thank you all any other questions before we close up okay so let's go off of YouTube