 Certainly for me when I started vegetarian journey, like that wasn't easy. To me it was like, oh it's easy to just take out meat, but like keep the rest of the things. In my mind that's already good enough to transition to vegetarianism. Why wouldn't you just eat the dairy cows and their egg-laying hens? They get slaughtered, do you know that? The point is, change is very difficult. I have to push back on that. You're talking about moving your hand to the plant milk. You're talking about moving from the eggs to the tofu. I didn't really think more so into these practices into what actually happens. Well you know what happens to fish. No of course. So we know what happens to fish. We won't let you off the hook. No no no, please don't. It will put you on the hook and maybe you'll have some empathy. What I'm doing now, and I'm very much aware of it, is it goes against my values. Are you setting an example you'd want others to follow? I have a cod here. Yeah. And there, should we give them a name? No we've been not giving them a name because I'm about to torture them in this tank. Please don't. So what's your name bro? My name is Misha. Misha, nice to meet you. I'm Belly. So on the side here says Wyatt New Vegan. And I want to discuss ethical veganism with the people who aren't vegan. Are you vegan? I am not vegan. I've been vegetarian for about eight years. Until very recently actually, this summer I started eating fish. So I'm now a pescetarian. Yeah, but I do understand the moral implications and also the environmental effects of veganism. And it is very good for plants overall. What do you think the moral arguments for veganism are? Well, in terms of morality, I think what is happening overall is very horrific. If you think about it, billions of cows are murdered every year and billions of chickens are murdered every year among other animals. If you think about it, like every life is precious and every animal deserves to live. It is not up to us to really decide who deserves to live and who doesn't. We are born equal, I believe. And we adjust the same where we are just the other animals as well. Just because we are on some sort of intellectual pedestal above those animals doesn't mean that we get to decide who deserves to live and who doesn't. We're equal and we shouldn't decide to kill them, I think. So should I go vegan now or something? Is that a great speech? So that's interesting that you say that because the reason I'm vegan, I'm concerned with animal rights. And animal rights are the way that some people get tripped out when I say animal rights because they think that I'm expecting rights for chickens to vote or something like this. But really we're talking about they're right not to be interfered with, enslaved and murdered, things like this, things like negative rights like don't do this to them. It's really easy to draw this parallel when you put humans in place of the animals and fundamental human rights. So what I would like to get into is why you are eating fish and dairy and eggs because in those industries animals have their rights violated and they also have their welfare violated in a horrible way. But the reason they have their welfare violated for the most part legally is because they don't have rights. I believe they're born with moral rights because of their inherent value just like you and I. We're born with our sentience, consciousness and what happens to us matters to us so we have inherent value. And I believe animals share that property with us so it's wrong to violate their rights for our own interests. I mean truly like it's comparably you could compare this to slavery and genocide what is happening to them on the farms realistically. It is a truly horrific sight if you've ever watched those videos what how these productions work. It is truly horrific and if you compare with if you think of it in a human context it's just so so so disgusting. Yet many people are I think blind to what is happening because we don't get to expose to it that much right. You got to supermarket and you just see meat and you kind of disconnected with that product. And I think that's why for a lot of people actually that they continue eating meat, fish and consuming animal products. Is that true for you because it feels to me like because you're doing the dairy and eggs and the fish. It feels to me that they're not like a cow and a pig maybe you avoid those animals. But it's a lot more disconnect with milk and eggs and maybe even the fish because they're like not a they're not a mammal. Yeah certainly when I started when I just turned vegetarian about eight years ago for me certainly it was a moral reason to do so more than environmental. But consuming animal products seemed better. It seemed like dietary wasn't much of a change for me. It was just literally taken out meat products out of my meals. But the animal products were kind of still there and it was just easy transitionarily it was quite easy in terms of my diet and also the disconnect. It seemed that the animal products they are more humane derivative you know instead of slaughtering animals. When you're talking about animal products you're talking about animal byproducts like milk and eggs you're talking about. Milk and eggs but all that stuff right so it seems that those products can certainly be derived in a more humane way. What is your definition of humane so I know what you're talking about. So the organic and free range stuff like when you know the basically when animals are treated well and they're not sort of caged in a very like small spaces and they're looked at generally really well. So when you say looked after really well. Yeah. What is your metric here you're talking about in what are you comparing well to are you comparing it to factory farms or some other horrible torture or. Well yeah basically traditional farming that has been in place for for hundreds of years compared to that. Yeah. Like I say I went and bought like tortured dog from a tortured dog salesman. Right. Do you believe that I have moral culpability and putting in demand that tortured that dog meat because obviously you buy these animal products right. And obviously you've justified it to yourself or maybe you haven't I'm just trying to get to the bottom of that. Yeah. I believe in that that me creating a demand for a certain thing. I have culpability in creating that demand. Yeah certainly. I mean if there was no demand there would not be an industry for it. Yeah. That is that is exactly what what happens and that's how economy runs really. Yeah. Right. So indeed if more people turned away from consuming those products there will be less less off the strain on animals and less of those of those inhumane practices. I would like to know what you believe happens to these animals in the dairy and egg industries that you support. Right. I mean I do not know too well what exactly is happening. And again I guess it's more so a place of comfort. You know if you don't know exactly what's happening morally it is easier to consume those products. I guess. And in day to day life you don't really think about it as well. So you know it's kind of and you can make the same argument for eating meat as well I guess. You know you don't really think about it. Why wouldn't you just eat animals? Why wouldn't you just eat the dairy cows and the egg laying hens? They get slaughtered. Do you know that? Yeah I know. So why wouldn't you just eat them if you're paying for the dairy and the eggs? I know. I mean my grandfather he had a farm and I used to see chickens and goats getting slaughtered. And I think for me that was that was what ingrained in me that sort of the picture of murder and suffering of those animals. And to me I've always viewed them sort of similar to us. I don't consider humans to be of any different to any animal right. There's differences but we share some valuable things in common. Indeed. It's consciousness and you know we're animals. Yeah exactly. So to me that always was like a huge thing. Like animal life was precious to me and I whenever I can I try not to impose any harm. Even on like you know small insects and stuff like that whenever I can I could I try to you know save them if I like find a spider or something in my shower or something like that you know. But let's focus on like you know you don't eat slaughtered animals because you have a preference not to because of your witness. Yeah. The egg and dairy the egg and dairy cows or the egg laying hens and the dairy cows will go to the slaughterhouse to even in a free range situation they do. So yeah and you believe they're having their rights to life violated when they go to that slaughterhouse. Yeah. Yeah. I mean certainly certainly. So you're feeding people who eat these dairy cows. You're basically putting into demand an industry that slaughtered dairy cows and puts them in burgers for McDonald's. Yeah. I mean. Or whatever mints product they go into. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I do not deny that fact. Yeah. Certainly by just merely consuming it I create those demand that demand and. So where's the line. So what I'm trying to figure out. Yeah. Like is now you've got dairy and eggs here and fish here. Yeah. And you've got slaughtered animal bodies and factory farms over here where you don't you don't want to support. Yeah. So why is it why have you made this distinction here. Again so for me it was it was more so the ease of the transition between the meat eating and the other side to the more sort of moral and more environmentally friendly side. To me it was like oh it's easy to just take out meat but like keep the rest of the things. Yeah. It was it was not it was not based on a complete morality but more so on the comfortable transition between the two because I initially I did not think I would be able to. To make a successful transition to a completely vegetarian diet. I thought it would be too difficult so. So you could step and you stayed there and you've taken a step back and started eating fish again. Yes indeed indeed. Yeah. So because there's a bit to unpack here. Yeah. Because like basically if you haven't if you have a essentially if you had a in a human rights position you wouldn't allow free range. Trade equalized human beings to go to the slaughterhouse so you could take milk from them or you know if you treated the human beings like property is that essentially so you could get some products from them. I don't think you would you probably have a hard line against that. Yeah. I assume you've got a soft line here that sort of leaks into these other industries that you don't mind supporting or that you feel is justified or you have like you feel like you're doing enough maybe because you know a lot of vegetarians feel like well this is my line. You know I'm comfortable with eggs and dairy. I'm not comfortable there. And you've got fish there too. Yeah. Do you believe fish are sentient? I do not know and I do not have the answer in that way but I do believe that they deserve to live and they deserve to not have that those rights violated not the freedom of movement or their life. They deserve to be free as any other animal. Well they have to be sentient if you believe that. Otherwise if they're not sentient why would you why would I care. I suppose. Yeah. They have to be sentient basically conscious of their experience aware of what happens to them. They can feel pain things like this. They have a brain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean because you're in line with the consensus they're not all see animals are sentient like oysters and things like this. Obviously I don't really give a damn if they're not sentient if they don't have awareness or you know so animals sentient animals deserve the rights. Definitely. But then there is also the circle of life and like the food chain. Like are you going to impose moral implications on say a predator for eating its prey. Right. I mean that's a separate question. I mean omnivorous animals. Right. They do eat plants and other animals. Of course they do. And so do humans. Why is there a difference. Why is there a difference. Yeah. Obviously animals kill each other in nature too. And we would say in human civilization that's an immoral thing to do. And you know we wouldn't say because of our omnivores we have carte blanche to act how animals act in nature. Obviously we've developed ethics and morals in order to function in civilized society to point to nature and say that animals eat other animals. Or animals do this and animals like have sex without consent and do all these other horrible things. We wouldn't you would never apply that out to our own race to other people. We wouldn't say oh yeah well I can do this because lions kill each other's babies and things like this. Yeah. You know chimpanzees murder each other or lions murder humans as well. Yeah. Yeah. And they're obligate carnivores. Obviously when we're talking about ethics and morality we obviously we have a good fundamentals for that already. And we basically we have human rights already. So why are you putting into demand industries that clearly violate the rights of these sentient animals. And would you would you do it if they were trade equalized kind of human beings. Because you believe we're equal. You said you went as far as to say we're equal. I don't believe we're equal. Right. I believe we share properties in common like sentience that make us both have inherent value. But I think we're very different. But you said we're equal. Right. So if we're equal and this fish is going to be dragged out the ocean suffer and die. And then you eat them. Then you wouldn't eat a human. No. Clearly. Definitely not. So we're not that equal. I guess so. Right. But like going back to what we were saying morality is very I mean it's a very human centric thing. It has been developed by us. It's not an absolute rule. It is subjective. It is very subjective to human experience. So the morality and the rights that we have developed those are very human centric. And they will always be that. Well, I would still say like even though we created this concept of morality, which is very, you know, it's great that we have this. I mean, you know, but we can't just your morality shouldn't contradict itself. You know, your your ethical framework should be consistent. Otherwise you have a clear contradiction there. Like I can't say like I value you as a human being, but the camera woman there like I don't value her because I have made this arbitrary decision to. Violate her rights. And I like you quite a lot or something like this. You would say, well, why you're basically arbitrarily selecting who deserves rights and who doesn't. And you say, and I might say to you, well, morality is a human construct. So who cares? Like who said, what is it grounded in? We made it so I can just pick and choose. Well, no, it should be consistent. Okay. Yes. So when we have these animals over here, we have these eggs and dairy, which is the rights violations of these animals. And over this side, you've basically drawn an arbitrary line. I mean, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But then is that justified though? Is that justified? I don't know. I get what I'm doing now and I'm very much aware of it is what it goes against my values. But changing things is sometimes difficult, even though you're aware of these moral choices. I mean, if you even for some immediate eaters, right? I'm sure some of them would agree that that is probably against their moral compass, right? Of course. But these changes are not always easy. And certainly for me, when I started vegetarian journey, like that wasn't easy. And now I'm very painfully aware even more so than I was before of the morality of killing the sentient beings and violating their rights. But also the environmental impact, which is also quite massive. Of course. That's a separate, that's a whole separate, that is a separate discussion because it's not to do with vegan ethics. It's to do with there are some, there are some places where environment and animal rights might intersect in some way. But that's a completely different topic because you can violate animal rights and it'd be good for the environment like hunting. And I'm not for hunting. I think it's murder. So the most environmentally friendly thing to do would be to, I mean, you could think of human beings with the most environmentally destructive human animal on Earth. You know, if you can think of killing human beings would be very good for carbon footprint. It would still be a human rights violation. You see how these two topics, they clash. Yeah. Certainly. But like it's the point is change is very difficult. Wait a second. I have to push back on that because because buying an egg or buying some milk at the shops, like you're talking about moving your hand to the plant milk. You're talking about moving from the eggs to the tofu. No, but it's the fundamental change in your diet. It's every single meal you have. It's your preferred taste and the further you go along. So that's different. That's a taste preference. Yeah. So that's not a practical argument. When you say difficult, what do you mean by difficult? Well, you get used to a certain way of life, right? When you wake up, you do certain things in a day that are habitual, right? And certainly something like eating meat and eating dairy and milk products and all that, right? That is like you've grown up a certain way and the further you go along in life, like the more deeply rooted that kind of way of life is. And so making certain changes would be arguably a little bit more difficult later on in life than earlier. I get you. I get you. I feel you. It's like a habit that you've developed over time. Yeah. But what I'm looking for is a moral justification because, you know, I used to be a gang member. I used to be a violent gang member like 10 years ago. And I went to prison. I got sober and I turned my life around. Now, where I'm from, I spent 12 years in a very violent environment. Like, I mean, incredibly violent and violence was like a way that we communicated. Stay away from me. Don't steal that off me. I'm going to, you know, punch you in the face or do something. Now, it was actually quite difficult for me to change right now. It's almost all out of me. Like, unless it's in a self-defense situation, obviously I can switch it on if I need to. I mean, I don't use that as my way of going through civilization or society anymore because I'd be an outcast. Wouldn't I? Yeah. I'd be put in prison. Yeah. Now, I've learned that. Now, that was difficult, but that doesn't justify me going around punching people because that's how we used to do it back in where I'm from. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, like, that's what I'm looking for is like a moral justification, not like it's too hard because if we put humans over this line where your arbitrary line is. Yeah. And we exploit them and kill them and put them in slaughterhouses. I'm sure you would say, oh, it's a little bit hard to choose something else, but I'm going to because that's too much for me, human beings. No way. I'm not doing that. Okay. I mean, the way I view it, the mass murder and the mass exploitation of animals is definitely horrific and it definitely has to stop. I mean, the numbers are absolutely huge. And if you think of just the sheer number of it, I mean, there are billions of individuals, individual animals, you know, being slaughtered and being exploited. That is a huge number. I mean, just to think of it, like that's, it's just massive. Think of sea animals, it's trillions. Yeah. Absolutely. Masses and masses and masses. So definitely when we're talking about the mass murder and like with the increase of human population and increase, increase in demand will rise ever so even more and more at the time. So definitely these practices that we have now, they are unsustainable and immoral and we cannot continue them. We agree on that. So what I'm trying to find out, right? We agree. Yeah. You're very, you're well-versed on this and you're educated on the topic. But what we haven't got to the bottom of, which is what I'm really interested in is undoing why you've made this arbitrary line. Yeah. So how do you justify it being a fish and being a dairy cow and being an egg-laying hen? Do you buy free-range eggs? I do. Yeah. Okay. Do you know much about free, I can just educate you on free-range eggs. Yes. I mean, but this is a welfare risk argument. But the, but you know, you can't actually buy a free-range egg in the UK right now. Actually, they're all barn eggs because they're, or bird flu they've been left inside. But even if they are let out, free-range egg barns, there are 16,000 birds in a barn. So they're essentially a factory farm without cages in there. And there's no way for them to develop normal hierarchies and pecking orders. And the animals are bred, a certain breed of animal, selectively bred over time to produce egg after egg after egg after egg. And this makes them deplete calcium and they end up becoming egg bound in their stomach and then they lose feathers and they can die before they even reach the slaughterhouse. And then it's basically just full on like animal slavery. I don't know how else to explain it. They're machines to lay eggs. Yeah. And they are all sent to a gas chamber to be slaughtered and their bodies eaten, not necessarily by human beings, pet food, this and that. But you know, I've got a suspicion they're going to human food. But that's prolonged suffering and yeah, for eggs. So that's a free-range situation. Well, that is absolutely horrifying. The description and the imagery, it is absolutely horrifying. Truly. Well, this is common. This is common practice because most of the eggs in the UK, I think 50% are classified as free-range. So it's basically we're taking away these cage scenarios and we're just putting all of our demand into free-range and they need to meet that demand. So they have to have mass production. How many people eat free-range eggs, you know? Almost everyone. Do you ask almost everyone that eats eggs? Always get free-range, man. Always get free-range. Well, then you're creating a demand for factory farmed free-range eggs. Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. I don't think I've created personally that line on... No, you haven't created that. No, no, no. You're not really responsible, honestly not. No, no, I think I haven't created that line with a very deep thought. Okay. You know what I mean? It was at one point, for me more so, it was like at one point, I want to make that change. And in my mind, that's already good enough to transition to vegetarianism. But then beyond that, I didn't really think more so into these practices, into exactly how we get these animal products and what exactly, what actually happens. Well, you know what happens to fish. No, of course. So we know what happens to fish. No, of course. So we won't let you off the hook. No, no, no. No pun intended. Please don't. No pun intended. It will put you on the hook. Maybe you have some empathy straight away. No. But you know what happens to fish. What happens to the fish that you eat? Let's just talk about that. Well, I mean, there are various ways in which they are caught. Some are more sustainable and some are more humane than others. But let's talk about the more humane ones. I want to know how you humanely kill fish. What's going on there? I do not, I'm not well versed on that topic at all actually. But like, but I know there are various practices. Sustainable doesn't mean humane. I mean, I can sustainably kill humans. They birth more humans every year. So like, I mean, I'm not really concerned with what's sustainable. Yeah. But I might not be as well. Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Murder can be sustainable if there's enough population growth. Certainly. Certainly. Yes. Yeah. I guess because of the demand. I think there is, there is like that demand needs to be met. And so there are either sustainable ways to meet the demand or not. And so in the world where we are looking to increase sustainability, those practices are better. That might not be our goal though. I mean, certainly. There are certain things that are incredibly egregious, that cut against, that might actually be sustainable. So I'm more concerned with the rights violation of the fish. And if they're sentient, they obviously deserve some fundamental rights. So I want to know how these fish are being humanely killed. I actually do not know. I say I do not know exactly. I don't think it exists for fish. You know, there's no slaughter guidelines on fishing boats. No. I mean, even if you go into like a UK slaughterhouse, at least they got guidelines. Whether or not they're adhered to or not, I mean, that's a different story. But they got guidelines. I don't think kit murder can be humane anyway, because they don't want to die. And it's not our, it's not our, who are we to dictate who lives and who dies so we can eat them? I don't see a justification for it. But, but with fish, are they suffer the most in terms of if you're just concerned with welfare, like fish are, fish are suffering in horrible ways, suffocating to death on the, on the boat decks. And. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a lot to think about. I think more so for me to research about, I don't think again, like these like the questions of morality and the questions of rights, like if you don't research them, and if you don't think about them, certainly it's easier, it's easier to go on along with the, with the practices you, you, you've put in habit, right? Put in place. And so because, because I haven't properly thought of it, it for me, it doesn't, it doesn't seem like a question, and a very deep question for me, whether to eat or not. But you went back to fish, right? So I want to know, because a lot of people do go back to fish. And I think it's, it's because they are different to mammals and they're, they're, they're so far away from us, like in terms of the anatomy, and you look at a fish and there's no expression in their face. And it's like, how do I empathize with a fish kind of thing? Yeah. I think more so for me, it was, it was that, like it was, that they're a little bit different to other animals. But at the same time, not. I don't know. Like at the time, it was just sort of like, I'm okay, I'm okay to eat some fish. So I've had a fish right here, right? Let's do this thought experiment. I have a fish here. They're in a tank. What kind of fish do you eat? Just out of curiosity, because I want to put that fish in a tank right here. Let's just say cod. A cod. Okay, I have a cod here. Yeah. And there, should we give them a name? No, better not give them a name, because I'm about to torture them in this tank. Please don't. So there's a cod in the tank. Yeah. Now I'm, I'm going to torture the top, the cod with a, and I'm poking them in the eyes and I'm going into their eyeball. And I'm, and I'm the, the cod is like moving around and showing to us with their behavior that they're, they're being caused pain. Would you try to stop me? Yes. Why? It's just horrible. Like you're literally just torturing an animal, right in front of them. What is torturing an animal matter? Again, because it goes back to believing that they are saying sentient, right? Someone in there, basically that I'm torturing. Yeah, you're causing suffering. Okay. Okay. What about this? I've got a gun and I'm going to shoot them directly through the brain, right? And there's cod in there and otherwise I can just release them into like a nice area where they would live out their life, have some little fish, babies or whatever they want to do. I don't know what cod preferences are, but I've got a gun now. I'm about to shoot them and I say, okay, do you want to, do you want to fish sandwich? I'm going to shoot this cod. Would you allow me to do that? Provided it went straight through their brain, didn't cause them any suffering. I think not. No. Why do you care? It's just a cod. For me personally, I don't want to see the suffering and the killing. Well, the killing isn't suffering. It's murder. So I prefer not to see that, you know what I mean? And even though I do eat it, I don't see it. Well, you pay someone to do the same thing. Well, it's not even that situation. It's actually the other situation where they're being tortured first for fish. But obviously as an animal rights activist, I'm always just concerned with torture. I'm also concerned with the fish's right to exist without us being interfered with. You're paying someone to do that exact thing almost. You know, the torturing and the killing. True. So you talked about disconnect at the side of the conversation. What would it take to connect the dots and make that decision? Because, you know, like your actions have ripple effects. You know, as you said, just by you existing and conversing in society, your actions, your principles rub off on people on society. And you can be part of that change. And I'm wondering if you've got this, if you're like, I don't eat these animals, but I eat these animals and these animal products, which go, they go to the slaughterhouse, they get tortured and killed. You really don't have a consistent ethical framework. You're really not doing, because for these animals here, it's just as bad for them as it is for these animals here that you've arbitrarily selected not to contribute to that. Yeah, you're right. You're right. The original consistent framework, moral framework in this, I think some choices are better than others, obviously. Of course. Because only because some choices are much worse than others. Yeah. And comparing it to something that's like, was so bad, then anything's better than that. Then that's not very good. Let's compare it to best case scenario. Not killing, living vegan, respecting animal rights. Obviously, shooting animals in the head without them suffering is still horrible compared to that. Yeah. No, truly. Yeah. It is just a very, very tough thing. One thing from one side is personal preference, whether to not eat or not. And a lot of people, I'm sure wouldn't have thought precisely on the implications of their choices, that their choices make on other people around them. But certainly that is, it is quite huge. And especially when we're talking about families, say, you know, parents would be eating fish and meat and all that, that would transpire into the lives of their family and their relatives. Are you setting an example you'd want others to follow? So I'm saying, if you said to me, Joey, this is how I want you to live. Just eat fish, dairy and eggs. And then I said, okay, everyone in the world, if I could click my fingers, everyone just kill the fish, the dairy cows and the egg layers. So see, as I started this conversation, I was aware of that these choices are not great in terms of moral reasons, nor in terms of the environmental reasons, which we haven't discussed, but they are huge as well. Of course. That's not the question. I'm aware of these practices. That's not good. But for me, I guess, again, this is deeper rooted in disconnect, right? That I have not thought about these things. And I don't think about these things on a daily basis. But things like that, what you do, these discussions, they matter. That's why this matters. Because it puts you face to face with the fact that of these practices, how horrible they are in their suffering, the visualization of you torturing or killing an animal right in front of me. Even though I eat fish, to me that is an unbearable image. That's crazy, isn't it? It is. But because of that disconnect, my day-to-day life, I don't really think about that. I use animal products and I just go along with my day as if nothing happened. From the standpoint of consumerism, you're already disconnected from it. That's how the industry runs. I think if we were presented more with these images, with this information, I think people would be thinking more about it. But that's not the case. It's not the case. And also, I think with something like fish, you obviously know there's a fish chopped up on a plate there. Yes, it's disconnect, but obviously it's a chopped up fish. True. So obviously they were murdered and chopped up into pieces. Whether they suffered or not, they mostly suffer. They're mostly tortures. I mean, every fish is dragged out the ocean and suffocates to death or they're smashed in the head with some type of hammer or something like that. So fish is a bad example because the welfare is so bad for fish that they're really, all the time, there's some horrible torture going on to them. But what I'm saying is, when you look at the plate, you see a chopped up animal. You see them chopped up. Like if there was a chopped up human, okay, so there was a human arm on the plate, you wouldn't have to question how that arm got there. Yeah, but if you see like a steak, it's not like a whole fish, right? If you see like a steak, right? That is a little bit different to seeing like an actual, like full-on animal, right? Like an actual fish in front of you. You can walk through a butcher and not picture an animal and just see me because the animal heads have been removed and it's been taken away from what they were. But if you look like fish in the eye, right? If you see like the actual dead fish, right? And you just see, like, look at it in an eye, it's a much different experience to looking at a steak. Have you seen fish be eaten alive? No. In our banks and things like this? No. Do people do that? Yeah, yeah, they eat fish alive or they put fish on a plate. The fish will still be kind of conscious and then they'll pour like hot oil over the fish's body. The fish will kind of be half-scaled and then the fish will still be like moving their mouth. That is horrific. That is... It is horrific, but I mean, I don't see the symmetry break and like I don't see how that's different to dragging fish off the ship of a boat. It might be... Okay, yeah, it might be marginally more suffering involved, but suffocating to death under a group of your friends, slowly dying of like, I don't know, not being able to breathe seems pretty horrible too. I just don't see why that would be much more horrible. I mean... I mean, at the end of the day, it is literally just murder and mass suffering that we're causing. There is... I mean, if you didn't care like about... If you said to me, look, Joey, look, I don't really have a rights position. I mean, if it was humans, I wouldn't care if it was dogs. I wouldn't care if it was pigs. I wouldn't care if it was... I just don't care. I mean, I guess that I couldn't really argue with that because I'll just be like, well, there's no reasoning with you, but you do care. You actually called us equal and then you said all these things like, you know, so you do have this value. You're contradicting your own values that you've said to me, you know? And yes, morality is subjective like we said, but your subjective morality is completely contradictory. It's not even... I very much agree. It's very arbitrary. Yeah, I very much agree. There is no hard line because I've never defined a hard line in my set of principles, right? So where are you at now? Like, where are you at now with this? Because obviously fish share the value... share the property sentience. The egg and dairy cows, the egg-laying hens and dairy cows, they obviously share this value of sentience. They go to the slaughterhouse, get chopped up, same thing. Rights violated. So where are you now? You're like, okay, they share this property that I care about, which is sentience consciousness, yeah? Yeah. So how are you still drawing the line? Are you gonna start moving the line over? I think so. I think in this time that I was vegetarian, I think I hadn't really thought once properly about what it is. And, you know, I sort of researched it initially and then I was, you know, I saw the suffering and all of that. But then as I went along, that was just the practice that I got used to. And that was just it. That was just a thing that is happening. But there wasn't much thought behind it. And so over the years, I haven't developed that hard line. And there wasn't a deeper understanding of what it is that I'm doing and why am I doing it. So that's why there was never a hard line. But now that we had this discussion, I think it's opened my eyes a little bit more to think deeper about these things. So what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna research a bit more about these practices, about what is happening in fishing industries and in industries to drive milk and eggs and all of that. And I think I'm gonna be moving line over. Because the practical argument, right, that's easily solved, how to go vegan, there's so many resources and like really right now, it's so, like really, but when I went vegan, there was less. I had to really look. I went vegan 10 years ago. Now for you right now, it's like they're handing it to you on a plate. It's very, very simple. It's a small habit change and like once you know how to replace the eggs and the milk is just, there's so many different plant milks now. You're right. You know, oat milk and soy milk and things like this. So really, I mean, you're just in a really good position here in the UK. You can make it cheap as well, cheap as you want to eat basically or as expensive as you want to eat, same with any other diet. No, you're so, so right. Yeah, I haven't thought about it like that deeply and I'm very glad I've had this chat with you actually. Yeah, I do think I want to move that, make that move. You do seem like a principled person. That's what I felt from you. Like you have values. You're straight away. Boom. We're equal with this. You know, you speak like that. You have empathy. You care. Not everyone speaks like that. Most people I speak to actually don't speak like that straight off the bat. So you already care. I'm just showing where like, you know, you could just extend that line over and have this principle that kind of encompasses it. Like it's more consistent, encompasses everything. All the sentient animals, you know what I mean? And humans as well. You just draw the line across. You could just go all the way across your moral system and it's like really consistent and you're good. No, you don't have a justification. Yeah. Now there are times when humans and animals die in civilization and it's like these are incidents or things like this or as a result of plant farming or things like this where these aren't clear but rights violations. They're not grabbing them, enslaving them, breeding them into existence, chucking them into slaughterhouses, cutting their heads off just for their eggs in their dairy and things like this. You know, so you can't live without, there's going to be death around, but obviously there's justified and unjustified harm. Yeah. I mean slowly, if more people are getting to choose this, these practices, the better practices of veganism, the demand is going to go away and these practices will be almost non-existent. But looking into the future as well, even people who do wish to eat meat, I feel like that will change, those practices will change as well because of the lab grown meat. So looking into the future, I think even for the people who do not want to make those changes still in the future, we will see that the shift to more moral ways of... The people that don't want to, I'd still say that if they care about, you know, if they have any care whatsoever, they should boycott industries that do this, because there's no other, we're not doing this to, this kind of thing, breeding human beings into existence to cut their heads off of, but we're not doing that. We're not doing that. That's an egregious moral crime if we were to do this to human beings. We have a clear double standard here as a world. I don't think the world will ever be nonviolent if while we continue to do this to animals, I think there will always be violence. I think this violence emanates out. The way we look at animals as inferior, as we bring them down to this level where we're like, your property to me and we can chop you up and eat you, even if it's not morally justified. I don't care while I draw an arbitrary line. This moral schizophrenia we have as a society emanates out to us as people and how we treat each other and I just think it's a cancer on us as a human race. So the way that you live, the principles that you have, they emanate out to others and you can be part of that change or you can be someone who's just like, apathy and I don't care, I'm gonna do this is my line and I don't really care or you can really be part of something and I think that you can be part of something. But do you think enough people are going to care to change the industries? No, and not everyone wanted slavery abolished or I'm sure the Nazis didn't want the Holocaust to end and I'm sure there's always gonna be pushback but obviously like we hope to get enough people on the side that animals deserve rights and don't deserve this to happen to them for our trivial interests enough to be able to change culture and change laws and once the laws are in place then animals have I wanna see animals with personhood. Do you think that will ever be able that will be the case? I think it's possible. I think it's much more possible, I think it's much more probable that animals will have rights way before people stop killing them because people still kill each other and we have human rights so people will still breach that but there's at least some legal framework protecting human beings and I want some legal framework actually protecting animals and not just protecting some type of welfare guideline giving them some welfare guideline while we chop their head off I wanna see them being not treated as property and having... Would you agree that majority of people would have to be on this side of things for the shift towards the animal rights to happen? Not the majority, no. A significant amount of the population, yes. So why do you think we're at right now in terms of that? We're in the early stages of changing the minds of consciousness, I think there's a lot of work to do. With the amount of people you've spoken to, right? What is the percentage of people that actually agree with this set of values that you... I couldn't tell you. The ones who don't agree end up contradicting themselves quite... The ones who defend the animal agriculture industry kind of end up looking like heartless in a way they look like they're defending the indefensible and they really can't argue their way around it without contradicting themselves and so I put that out there for people to make their own mind up about and I think most people... the people who care about animals actually agree but they just can't put it into practice for some reason. Maybe they don't have the willpower or something like this when it really is not... the practical point is really easy to address. I mean, it's not that hard. Yeah, no, certainly. It's just for me like the word is we both agree that this is immoral and these practices... we can't continue doing this, right? Animals should have rights and there's killings and suffering that should just be stopped but my worry is that there will not be enough people to make that shift. Well, if you haven't yet, I can see why you worry. Because the first step to change is to change yourself and then you can be lead by example and change others, right? But if you haven't lived consistent yet yourself then how would you expect others to make that change, you know? But I think when you realise that... So me, I've been a vegan 10 years and I really do believe that animals can have rights because it's stupid for them not to. They share the property of sentience with us. They have inherent value. Human rights are based off of inherent value. They share that property with us. Why don't they have rights? And it's because there's industry behind it. People want to eat meat. There's all these stupid reasons that humans justify this, you know? There's a lot of financial interest behind it as well and people don't want to give up their burgers. Simple. It's too hard. They don't want to. I like my burgers. I like my cheese. I don't want to eat vegan burgers or whatever I like. Certainly. But then there's so many other implications as well in terms of the economical impact of this because that is a huge part of economy, right? Of course. So that massive shift in these practices would cause a very, very huge... So yeah, it has to be... It would be gradual because change doesn't happen like that. Yeah, it does. They don't like it too. Economy too bad because it's not a justification to do this to human beings, the economy. The economical argument was deployed during the times of slavery in America as well. They said, what are we going to do with our industry? It's not a reason to keep things, you know, to violate animal human rights, the economy argument. Yeah. Well, a lot to think for me about, really. And I'm very, very glad I had this conversation with you, I think. Appreciate it. What really stuck out to me is, yes, I think having that personal power of impact, I think is huge. And I think having had this conversation with you, I think now I will think more about these practices, about what is happening behind these industries and choose better choices, I think. I'll make better choices in my diet. You're right, it's just so easy. There's no reason not to. I mean, I like almond milk. I like these vegan alternatives. It really is just such not a difficult decision at all. You may be just a little compelled to. You didn't feel motivated to. You didn't see the reasons for it at all. Exactly, exactly. You go along with your life, not really thinking about these things, but it really is not that difficult. And it means the world. This isn't a trivial change. It is for you and your practices, but on the other end of it, you've really made a political statement here. I don't want to be a part of this. I don't want to be a part of this. And in the future, when I'm talking to my grandchildren, I'll say to them, I boycotted that madness back then. I was one of the people who stood up and said, I don't want to be a part of torturing and murdering and robbing the rights of these animals. You said to me at the start of this conversation, case closed, they are valuable beings. They are equal to us. I think we share equal property. Or maybe if they have sentience, it's a little less. Who cares? At what point do we drag a human being's sentience down and it becomes morally justified to cut their head off and eat them? I just don't think you can do that. You can trade equal as a human to the mind of a cow and cutting their head off and eating them for a steak is still completely morally unjustifiable. So you can be part of something big. Well, thanks so much for this conversation. It was really, really insightful and helpful in so many ways. Yeah, there's a lot to think about. Go home and have some fun. Also, good talking to you. Thank you very much. Good talking to you. And how to go vegan, just look it up on our line. I mean, I usually give out pamphlets, but we're not allowed to right now. Where's the website? Do you have online resources? I do on my channel, but you can just look at any YouTube video, How to Go Vegan, and it will give you all the practical tips you need. I do a thing called Challenge 22. I'm involved with a thing called Challenge 22, where you sign in on a Facebook group and they give you support. There's Veganuary. They're always there to give support. There's many different... I mean, you choose the one that you like the best, but it's really just... You just got to replace fish and eggs and dairy and things like that. I start thinking about other ways humans exploit animals, but I think you're almost there. So, no worries. Take care. I think a lot of people might find themselves in his position where they agree with it, but they don't feel compelled to kick those other products and a lot of people who are vegetarian think like this, too. They don't think it's a moral urgency to remove the eggs and dairy. But from the animal's perspective and from an animal rights perspective, those animals having their rights violated, just like the pig in the gas chamber is just... The suffering... Maybe the suffering is not equal in all cases, but the rights violations are very clear. It's the fact that the animals are treated as property and will be decapitated in the slaughterhouse because they're treated as property. And I do believe it's a moral obligation. If you care about rights of animals and if you care about the inherent value we share, then it's a moral obligation to boycott those industries as well. So, I think he got the picture. I think he saw that his moral system was contradicting itself and he just had an arbitrary line. I think he saw the inconsistency with just drawing an arbitrary line where he decides. I hope he goes home and makes a change.