 Welcome to NewsClick. We have with us Dr. Prabodhan Paul, who is a historian and works in the Delhi University. He is to talk to us on the Bhima Koregaon violence that has erupted in Maharashtra recently and the context of the Bhima Koregaon war that had taken place 200 years back. Welcome to NewsClick, Dr. Hai. How important do you think is the Bhima Koregaon for the Dalits across the country and especially in Maharashtra? Bhima Koregaon is a place where this memorial is built by English East India Company and it is basically built in the honour of those soldiers who fought against the Peshwas. So it is basically a source of inspiration for Dalits who had fought against Peshwas who are considered as someone who ostracised them, someone who exploited them and that's why they celebrate that victory and it's basically a source of inspiration for them. Saying goes that there were only a few hundred soldiers and were fighting more than 25,000, 28,000 odd Peshwas soldiers. Is it true historically or is there some exaggeration in the... No, obviously there is an element of exaggeration, there is no doubt about that but what is important is that the number of soldiers that fought against the Peshwas were obviously in hundreds. So there were a few hundred soldiers and most of them were Mahars. Not only Mahars but other castes also like Marathas and Muslims also, they fought against the Peshwas. But what is important is that they won the war and the number was quite huge as compared to their number. It is well known that the life of the Dalits in Peshwa rule was very bad. In fact it had the most cruel forms of exploitation where the Dalits had to have a pot in front of their mouths and a broom to wipe out their footprints. Now that after the 20th century they say that Dr. Ambedkar visited the spot and from then on every January 1st it was celebrated as an important event in the Dalits. So why do you think that is an important event for the Dalits? Yes, it was primarily because Ambedkar visited this site. This site has received that kind of importance especially after 1947-1947 in the post-independence period. Ambedkar also tried to use this symbol primarily because this is a symbol wherein the Dalits can actually take inspiration from the victory. Ambedkar visited this site in 1927 and this is also a year where Ambedkar in fact started a very famous Maharsatyagra. And you will see that how Ambedkar is trying to build his politics. Here the history of Koregao was quite important. Is it because the Dalits known as the broken people did not have a history of their own being part of any of these... I mean having weapons because the Manusmuti says you are forbidden from holding weapons and your only occupation would be tending to the cleaning the streets or whatever and having a non-material access to life. So do you think he was actually energizing and giving a confidence to the Dalits? Obviously I think that was the intention. You know most of the writers in late 19th century except people like Phule and others most of them have in fact focused on the negatives of the Dalit history or negatives of the Dalits. That's why I think in that context it was important for Ambedkar to invoke something which would be considered as a positive history. And Bhima Koregao although many would argue that this history is basically contradicting with the mainstream nationalist narrative. Ambedkar thought this history as a positive narrative of victory. So after 200 years this is the 200th year how do you think this event of the Dalits celebrating this has grown over the years and also because this event the Dalits celebrating there is also a negative feeling or there is the dominant caste groups or the Hindutva forces have attacked this 20th 200 year celebration. What might be the reason behind this? I think if you look at the celebrations the history of celebrations of Bhima Koregao Memorial you would see that this celebration in fact is quite a recent thing. You know for last 20, 25 years people started celebrating Bhima Koregao. Obviously you know there is this narrative that is inscribed in Dalit memory in the in Dalit narratives but what is important is that you know actual celebrations started only after 1990s. You know the organized celebration I am talking about obviously many people would go they used to go before that also but the organized celebration started in 1990s and what is important here is to understand is that it is also a period. Post 1990s you would see that Dalits started getting themselves organized. If you look at the education amongst Dalits that also started getting you know the number of people who were into education as compared to the Dalits in 1990s you would see that there is a substantial difference. Say there is a substantial increase in the educated Dalits. It was also the centenary year of Dr. Ambedkar. Obviously that played 1990s in fact changed the contours of Dalit politics. That is obviously the decade was quite important and what is important is that from then onwards for last 20, 25 years you would see that Dalits are getting organized and not only they are getting organized but they are quite articulate and these people are ones who are also quite conscious about their identity. It is not that you know they have forgotten their identity. They are quite conscious then they are very positive. So I think all these things played very important role in the violence that took place in Koregao because what happened was that the Hindutva forces they are quite uncomfortable with the politically conscious Dalits. They would be very happy to celebrate Ambedkar but they don't want Ambedkar's teachings to be imparted. In that context there had been a history of violence on the Dalits who were aspiring, who were articulate. Take it from the naming of the Maratha University from then on. Can you throw some light on the history of violence? So if you look at this violence, if you compare this violence with the violence that happened before you would see that there is a remarkable change. Now the violence that you just mentioned that happened in 1970s, 80s in the context of this Namantharandolan or you know also in the context of Dalit Panther movement. Obviously this violence was perpetrated by dominant castes against the Dalits and this violence was not new. This violence was happening for last you know 50, 20 years you know at least there are written narratives about this violence. What is important is that the violence that took place in 70s and 80s was a localized affair. It was basically violence that was confined to village or group of villages and it was basically planned or strategized or you know done by people who were from that village. So that and obviously the cast hatred, cast prejudice played very important role. But now what is the difference in the 2000s? Is there a sense of Hindutva element in this violence being perpetrated on the Dalits? I think that's the significant thing that we see in last few years. The Hindutva forces are actually trying to organize people especially from the dominant communities like Marathas and the problem, the predicament of Marathas is that since 1990s you would see Marathas are actually facing a huge crisis and as a result of that you would see the youth are actually you know they are getting diverted to different things because of unemployment, because of lack of education, because of you know lack of avenues, employment avenues. So that's why you know they are getting attracted to the Hindutva ideology and you know Hindutva forces are actually using this as an opportunity to attract them in their organization and perpetrate violence against Dalits. The Dalits celebrate the Maratha leaders for their assertiveness in the anti-Brahman movement say especially in Maharashtra in the modern period you had Sahoji Maharaj and others who were vocal in giving rights to the Dalits. So what has been the change in the past 100 years in this relationship? There is an interesting relationship between Marathas and Dalits. Marathas, there were many Marathas right from you know from Shivaji to Shaho and the leaders of non-Brahman movement who actively supported Dalits. You know if you look at the written history of 20th century, written narratives of 20th century you would see people like Shaho Maharaj who were instrumental in the establishment of organized Dalit politics in Maharashtra. There were people like Jedeh, Kesharao Jedeh and Tinkarao Javalkar who actively supported Ambedkar in his quest against untouchability. So at an ideological level obviously there is some kind of coherence we see between the Dalits and the Maratha ideologues who are obviously quite progressive in their outlook. But when you look at the reality, actual situation in the villages you would see that these Marathas who are the dominant castes they are the ones who are the perpetrators of violence against the Dalits. Obviously there is a caste hatred, there is a caste violence involved and there is a history of caste violence. What is important is that this violence that happened on 1st January 2018 was quite different. In fact it was the violence that brought different elements and which were not traditional elements. They were the ones who were basically associated with the Hindutva elements and now it has mixed up now. Otherwise the history of Dalit and Marathas for the last 100 years obviously its history of violence. So the response to that violence also the Dalits came out in huge numbers protesting. So how do you see the response of the Dalits in this? I think response was quite expected because at least last 3-4 years you would see that there is a concerted effort from Hindutva groups to instigate dominant castes against the Dalits and Maratha Kranti Morcha was one example and they also wanted to instigate Marathas against the Dalits and Marathas. Now as far as the response from the Dalits is concerned the Fadnavis government in fact they took the Dalits for granted. They thought that they would get away with the violence. They would say something and get away with the violence. But the problem was that they actually miscalculated this violence and they did not know what would be the fallout of the violence. And seeing the response now one can see that the government is basically on the back foot. What we see is that after the organized mobilization from Dalits, people from the right wing and Hindutva forces they are not very comfortable and that's why they are on the back foot now. With the Dalits coming out onto the streets and showing their anger that they will not take the Hindutva forces lying down and has put the Hindutva forces in Maharashtra on a back foot. On this note we thank Prabodan for coming to NewsClick. Thank you for watching NewsClick. Do subscribe and watch NewsClick.