 Hi everyone, welcome to the Jenkins Governance Meeting today is April 21st. We have several contributors on the call and several future contributors as you might see. But yeah, today we have a few items in the agenda, like discussing the recent product release, etc. Then we will talk about criminal job deeds, upcoming contributor summit and various LFX tools we are trying to adopt in the project. So that's the agenda and if you want to propose any additional items just put them to the list and we will discuss them. Okay, so the first topic is 2.273 release. Okay, so yeah, we had to make out of security release because there was a security release performed by JT which potentially leads to denial of service attacks. So yeah, we decided to cut the release and we encourage everyone to update. That's it. So we will still have .4 LCS release in two weeks as scheduled and nothing changes about that. So for .4 we should have the release candidate today or tomorrow and once it's done we will announce it through Jenkins developer channels so that we can continue working on it. Okay, so the new LCS baseline selection. As you might see there is a developer release thread and in this thread we have an ongoing discussion of what LCS baseline we want to take and yeah, the current plan is that we will proceed with 2.289 released yesterday. So unless there are serious issues in six weeks it will become the new LCS baseline and all enhancements integrated into the Jenkins core will be released. So there are some open questions. For example, we haven't integrated tables to these updates for ransomries proposed by Team Jakob and we also didn't integrate some other changes we would like to have like a removal of common digestor and most likely these changes will go into the September LCS release. So it will take some time and if you have any strong opinions please vote. That's it. Any comments, questions? Nope, sorry for it to me. Okay, so another update over the last two weeks we had a discussion on the million million list for duplicating Ruby and Python runtimes. So we have a consensus that we are doing that. We are going to announce that thanks a lot to Gavin for the block post draft. So this block post draft is ready for review and hopefully we will measure it within a few days. Again, we are going to apply some changes to the Jenkins core like removing permit list for Ruby class serialization and these changes will be effective in the September LCS release. So there will be quite a lot of time for Jenkins users to adopt it. Gavin, would you like to add something else? I don't think so. So the only, I mean we would like to have more reviewers on that blog post but the only real blockers right now is making sure the open graph image is clear that doesn't scare people because that was one of the concerns. We didn't want to say we're not supporting Ruby. It's that we're not supporting the Ruby runtimes. That needs clarification and there's some debate about updating the JEP. So that has to get done but I don't think either of those are blocker for the blog post to go out. I'm not sure. I took an action item to update the JEP 7 but yeah, I'm not 100% confident that I will be able to do today. It really depends. Okay, so but anyway, thanks to all contributors and hopefully it won't be a major impact on the Jenkins plugin ecosystem. We have something like 15 plugins affected and the biggest one GitLab hook plugin is largely replaced by a GitLab multi branch plugin. So we should be fine. So anything else on this topic? I'm looking forward to it because it's all the metadata is really screwed up. So the plugin site has trouble processing it each time. So I'm happy for it to be gone. Me too. So we still need support for Thumbstone pages on the plugin side because there is growing demand due to the publishing of plugins and alpha versions. So if you could somehow support them on the plugin side, it would be great. Yeah, it's a complete topic we could discuss. I think I wrote up a to-do item or like a to-do item to process that same list that UpdateCenter has and then just instead of saying that plugin doesn't exist, it would be very clearly that plugin is de-plublished, go here instead type thing. So it's coming eventually. Okay. That's great. Thank you. Okay. So what's next? Outreach programs. So we have three unborn outreach programs at the moment. One is Google Summer of Code or Google Summer of Code. The application period is over. We've got more than 20 proposals to different projects that are strong proposals. So we are confident that we will have a number of projects announced. The announcement will happen on May 13th. Over the next months, mentors and organeers will be reviewing complications, forming mentor teams, etc., etc. But so far so good. So you said the announcement is whether or not they got accepted? Yes. So the announcement of accepted projects because there is a complicated process. This year it's complicated even more because we participate under the umbrella of the Continuous Delivery Foundation. So we'll also need to balance Jenkins applications with applications to other projects. We are currently working with other organeers from CDF. But it will take a while to conclude that. And on May 13th there will be white announcement for all Google Summer of Code organizations. Before that, we are not allowed to talk about what projects we would like to accept. If you're interested to mentor some of them, please join the mentor team and then you will get all the insights. Okay. Do we already have an idea on how many other projects from the CDF submitted IDs? So the IDs have been submitted by five projects, including Jenkins. So basically they were project IDs for Artelios, for Screwdriver, for Spinnaker. Okay, I was wrong. There was four projects. There were no IDs submitted for TikTok, but we had a TikTok operability project ID in the Jenkins project. And there were no IDs submitted that was left for Spinnaker. But for Spinnaker, there was out-of-bent application. Yeah, let's see how it goes. Okay. So yeah, I think it will be a good year. So hopefully we'll have a number of really good projects. Stay tuned for announcements. Okay, Google season of dogs. We are not accepted. Thanks a lot to Mark and all other contributors for the application. We have started the retrospective. Yeah, I cannot really say why we were not accepted right now because, yeah, GSota organizers don't communicate feedback. This year they have accepted only 30 projects. So it's lower than in previous year. And it's safe to assume that one of the main reasons that they wanted to give an opportunity to other projects because we participated last year. And yeah. So for those who are interested, we have some money in the offers. So technically, we can run our own program using LFX mentorship. So if there are project IDs, if you're interested to be a mentor for a documentation project, please let us know. Okay. So the last program we have now is called Africa. So we have five mentors working on Jenkins pipeline documentation as a part of this program. There were multiple requests submitted by the contributors. The program ends by the end of April. And hopefully we will get a summary blog post on Jenkins as well. So you said there's five students or five mentors? Five mentors, but they also have five mentors, I believe. So, but yeah, there is no dedicated project. So basically it's the collaboration. So what's next for us? Any comments on outreach programs? Yeah, so spent too much time on updates. And yeah, another update terminology updates. So we recovered this topic. We stopped in August by choosing the name for Jenkins controller. So now it's an official name. We made some recommendations about localizations, but we haven't made final decisions about the sub terms for Jenkins controller. So I placed a screenshot. So for example, we still have no formal name for Jenkins as a node for Jenkins or Winterface, etc. In many cases, the decision is straightforward. But still, I would like to finalize these decisions. And I started this thread. So we could just do that. So if you have any suggestions how we name particular items, or if you see any items missing in the list, there is a Google dog, please comment and we'll accommodate that. And then hopefully we'll be able to facilitate the contributions so that we make all these changes. For the change, I replaced this plate on the screenshot that Daniel Beck has already submitted a pull request. So it shouldn't be a big deal, but there are other places where which we would need to update. Okay. Anything on terminology? So yeah, then Jenkins contributor summit. So quick update is confirmed for June 25. The NTS delivery foundation has edited to the registration page. We got almost 100 registrations by now. So yeah, it doesn't mean that we will get 200 participants because you know, it's an online event, especially free online event. But still the numbers are quite good. So what's next there? We still need to finalize the agenda. There is Google dog. And if you have any ideas about what are the major topics we should discuss, please add them there. We have some important topics like Jenkins and basically collaboration availability with Jenkins X and Tecton. This is something we kind of confirmed by now. Also, I want to discuss Java 17 support. And yeah, any other topics, it would be great. And actually, I wanted to think about this really not because one of the items we could have there is actually presentation by Jenkins users so that we could get a number of Jenkins adopters who just present and share their feedback on Jenkins and their vision how it should be evolving and their main demands. So we have never had such items at contributor summits, but I think it would be a good thing to do. Yeah, I can certainly reach out to some of my colleagues from FECode or customers. What kind of thing you think would be interesting to hear and how long could it be, for example? Yeah, that's a good question because we need to define the format. Mm-hmm. So any ideas are welcome. It depends on the number of companies we get, the number of users we get. So it shouldn't be a one hour talk for sure. So it should be maybe a relatively short summary of how they use Jenkins, what is their vision, and then also some time for discussion. I think it could be cool to exactly what you're writing. The easiest group of people to convince to present would be those that are proud of something. So they really did something fun with Jenkins. I think that might also be fun to watch. But there probably could be a space where the challenges could also be mentioned. So they can talk directly to contributors, or not directly, but actually have them in the audience or something like that. Yeah. And some things that were not solved yet, like things that, you know, like, guys, we're happy with most of the things, but there's this one that is kind of painful for us and we're still struggling with it. I think that that's have to be open to that too. But, and then the length, I think, like 15-20 minutes, it doesn't have to be deep dive, but something that is kind of, you know, long enough to to, so they can present actually something, but it doesn't have to go through, don't have to go through implementation details. Yeah, great. So we have plenty of time to finalize the agenda to reach out to participants. So the Contributor Semitone is on June 25th. And we have full freedom regarding forming our agenda. We will be using our own Zoom platform for the conference. So yeah, let's keep working and any ideas you have, any proposals you have, let's do it and discuss that. And yeah, same for everyone on the call. So any ideas more than welcome. But then let's say I hear from some of my colleagues that they are like, wow, we want to do it. Should we start a threat in the developer's mailing list or how do we handle it? So we could just use Google Doc for initial collaboration. So for example, we can start a list of interested users there and then depending on how the discussion goes, we can move elsewhere. Okay. Yeah. I just think it would be nice that, you know, I'm not just passing the information back and forth, but there's communication open. So if you can create a document and link it here, then we can just kind of, you know, kick it off. Maybe the advocacy outreach channel is also a good place to chat if you have ideas and don't quite feel comfortable yet submitting them. Yeah, it's also a good channel. I can never spell this word advocacy. Okay. So are there any other major topics we would like to put to the agenda? Oh, like, so just related to the Jenkins Contributors Summit because this is taking place during CDCon. Can I mention that the Jenkins award is going to be taking place also at CDCon and the award application is being currently open until next week, April 30th. So I just want to share that information just in case anybody wants to nominate one of our winners. Could you put a link in this document? Yes, I will do that. I'll put it in the document. Yeah. So there will be a blog post which we plan to publish tomorrow if everything goes fine. So Raksan from CDF has submitted a pull request. There are a few minor changes to be done there, but it should be ready to go soon. And yeah, there are some changes in the program this year and I guess these changes are good. So firstly, there is a public nomination process, you just submit a Github issue, well, comment on the Github issue with justification, etc. And secondly, any Jenkins contributor is eligible because for example, over the past years, for example, this employs and some other people are eligible to get the award. This year you can nominate any contributor regardless of affiliation. Okay, so the blog post is coming soon and yeah, thanks a lot to Alisa for bringing it up, because it should have been in the news. Okay, so what else happens at CDCon? We will have more than six Jenkins related talks. There will be also Jenkins-builds a fiven. There's likely that we will have a kind of booth or open-conny session to be announced. And we will get some time during the keynote for major announcements. So we still need to have these major announcements, but it's something up to us. But if we have them, then we can utilize this opportunity. Anything else regarding contributor summit in CDCon? Okay, I haven't been since I was essentially a vendor at Jenkins. Anything that the board needs to do at CDCon? Should I be taking the time off? Just show up if I can show up. Yeah, so there is contributor summit and there is CDCon. The CDCon I proposed a kind of open panel with Jenkins governance board members. Well, it wasn't accepted mostly because of really tight schedule and the resilience of applications with a focus on actually practical use cases and adopters. But we can do this session, for example, as a part of contributor summit or we can plan it, let's say as a separate session around the CDCon timeframe. So for the Jenkins board specifically, there is nothing where we need to participate as governance board. But for the contributor summit, of course, everyone is welcome to take any area. So for example, UI, UX, static analysis, who knows any topic we can add there and see how we could facilitate. Okay, so moving on. Okay, LFX tool adoption updates. Yeah, before that, I had separate biolets for each tool, but they'll do a really quick summary of what's going on. So LFX security, basically it's sneak. After the contributor summit in February, we agreed that we would like to adopt that. We have experienced a few vital issues with this tool. So for example, you cannot configure ignore lists for CVs. And with Jenkins dependency management, it's quite difficult because we've got something like 200 solvent false positives across the ecosystem. So we cannot use LFX security as is. I started a discussion with the Linux foundation team about how we could do that. Later, we've got this team involved. And what is the current plan that sneak and LFX security want to work on a feature which would allow projects to actually manage their configurations. And they invite Jenkins to be a pilot project. And they want to collaborate on that. So basically to get a good study of that. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Okay, so yeah, just heads up, there will be a meeting next week with a sneak and LFX security. If anyone is interested to participate, let me know. Right now, I'm just invited a few people. And if we need any special mandate for these conversations, yeah, I'm also happy to discuss that. Because I just contributed. But yeah, since we are going into more or less formal collaboration with sneak, maybe we need a wider discussion for that. But yeah, I think that it's beneficial to the Jenkins project if we get the LFX security. So all of you are interested to participate anyone else? Okay, I will put the update to the main interest once it's done. And yeah, I'll take an action to just that. Yeah, all you need to mark and somebody else. But yeah, we'll keep the progress of the as public as possible. I don't think it will require any kind of NDE's. But until we talk to sneak, I cannot say for sure. I just noticed there is a chat. What is the Twitter link for? Twitter link was for contributor nominations for that one. We'll leave that one then. Okay. So yeah, okay, easy CLA. So it's basically the work of the contributor to license agreement flow to really for the governance board and Jenkins contributors from the current tedious flow, if they want to get special permissions. So I paste the quote there. So we have two options. One is to have independent Jenkins account. Another one is to have an account as a part of the continuous delivery foundation because the continuous delivery foundation already has an account, which is currently used only for Tecton. So what account we use should be more or less transparent for any contributors. But it may impact how we manage easy CLA. So question to everyone. Do we want to have a self managed account? So if I remember the mailing list correctly, the shared account means that they only have to sign it once for all the shared accounts or all the shared projects. Yes. While a separate account would mean they'd have to sign it once for Jenkins and once for Tecton and once for everything else. Yeah, that's correct. So I was just going to say I sort of think we should have individual, but I don't sign enough CLA's to not really care. Yeah, I'm the other direction lobbying that we should we should just use the shared so that we don't have to go through maintaining our own. But what are the downsides? Oleg, do you see any negatives from from choosing to do it outside? We would have to create our own account with LFX or is there more to it? Does it significantly increase our burden? I don't think it would significantly increase our burden. Also, we have a few special requests. So for example, I brought a question about security contributor agreement because currently we don't have one and it might make sense to have one, especially for company contributors. So, yeah, going with our own accounts has some merits, but I don't have a strong opinion because I don't have insights how much time it would take to manage. So the autonomy, the autonomy from a separate account sounds good to me that understood. Thanks. Any other strong opinions? I doubt weak opinions are fine too. Anyone have weak opinions? I think take the simple solution. The simple solution would be the best. Which one's simpler? I think just choose the account that we already have. So we don't have one. CDF has one. Yeah, so they see one. I mean it means that someone who contributes to Jenkins and to another CDF account would have to... Yeah, also it may cause some political questions because, for example, some companies may not want to allow their contributors to contribute, let's say to Spinnaker. And by doing this field card contributor license agreement, basically you permit it for the list of employees. Unless we find a way to somehow scope these contributions, which is not a part of the current CCLA. And I think since the agreement is so easy to sign, especially with this, it makes sense to separate them and just keep it simple. Okay, so really you prefer to go with CDF, right? A person I would prefer to go with independent accounts. Yeah, if it's this year, but I don't have a problem with using an independent account, I just fear that we have a lot to get one. Olivier, did I misunderstand your desire? Was it your recommendation to go with CDF or to have an independent account? To have an independent account. So we have one specific to Jenkins. So if someone, I mean, want to contribute to Jenkins on me, I mean, that's kind of weird because we joined the CDF. So we are supposed to have... I mean, yeah. I mean, both options are fine to me. I just like, I would go with an independent account. I don't have strong opinion here. Okay. So what to do others think? Well, no, no strong opinion either. Olivier? Yeah, I don't have a specific opinion. Okay. I think we need to bring a previous topic in the death list. So I don't think we're ready to make a conclusion now anyway, because it needs to be discussed in the death list first. And what would happen with the current CLA that we have? So the current CLA, what we agreed that during the previous discussions, we would ask active contributors and companies to resign it because the CLA here and the ICLA from the Linux Foundation will be different. So it's largely the same as ours, but the item conditional items to specify how easy CLA works. And also to address a case when the signing contributor is not registered this easy. So you have whatever vice president to sign this CLA, but this vice president and doesn't have a Linux Foundation account. So they're doing whatever this legal thing. It doesn't change the CLA in principle. So it's Apache CLA. Thanks. Okay. So yeah, we'll start a discussion in the death list while continuing the existing threat. But yeah, thanks to everyone for the feedback. Okay. So going next, LFX current funding, no real updates. So it's like we discussed before, I still have an action item to add other board members to the expensive hypercant so that I'm not the single person bottleneck. But after it's done, we can actually conclude that it's official treasury. And they also have an action item to reach out to SPI and to confirm other expectations about our treasury there. Just to make sure that we can make money as long as we need. Okay. LFX mentorship. Again, no major updates. There was some detail loss during the immigration from coming to reach the LFX mentorship. We just fixed it together with the Linux Foundation of course. So now Sladin.us is officially listed as a graduated mentee from the LFX mentorship. But yeah, basically that's it. Another update that I've started getting some notifications about mentors wanting to join the project. So they enable to this feature on LFX mentorship. And yeah, maybe we'll need to do something about that because right now we don't have a confirmed open program for LFX mentorship. But yeah, some people assume that we do have one. So these are people wanting to mentor or wanting to be mentored? Is that your same question? Yeah. So currently our program is not open for applications. So mentors cannot apply. But mentors apparently cannot apply. And our problem which has been brought up by one contributor, Sagarotkar, that basically our project on LFX mentorship is basically contribute to Jenkins and we figure out the details later. So yeah, with the current arrangement, the mentorship submission doesn't quite work. So Oleg, is that a place where I should be considering submitting a proposal to do something like Jenkins on Kubernetes as a an LFX mentorship thing? That would be a replacement. And can LFX mentorships be crowds? Can they be funded? Yes. So we could fund the mentee in that case. Yeah. So we have budget on LFX crowdfunding. So LFX crowdfunding can be used to pay contributor statements. But to mentees, we can't use it for paying salaries. But statements like encouraging payments can be done. And yeah, I'm not allured to discuss what is the difference. So but yeah, there is some clear distinction in the Linux Foundation guidelines. So what it means for us that we can, at any moment, run our own program, like we did the misleading for Jcast developer tools, basically for Visual Studio code plugin for Jcast, we can do something like that at any moment. So basically, that's eternal LFX mentorship. Do we need to give more people access? So you're not, I feel bad every time you get more work. So well, in the case of LFX mentorship, we had multiple mentors. So Mark Jackson, I believe Mark is registered there. And there was somebody else, I believe Tim Jackall. But yeah. So LFX mentorship is a bit complicated in terms of management. We had a few sessions with the Linux Foundation product management about mentorship crowdfunding. And they're really working on improving these tools. So they're getting better and better. But yeah. So any contributions are welcome. But right now, it's not a big deal because basically, we don't use these tools too much. Crowdfunding is just a tool we should use. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So what else? So there is a thread. I started focusing on a research about promoting Jenkins X3 release. So Jenkins X3 now again includes support for Jenkins. Jenkins send along controllers, or it's cloud native setups, there's Jenkins file runner and ticked on. There is documentation about that. There's announcements. And I think that we should promote this release from the Jenkins channels. Just because now there is a lot of opportunities for collaboration between projects. And I think that we should use these opportunities where possible. I'm curious because I don't know the history. Why did they drop Jenkins? Did it because they thought that everyone was searching to tick on? And then we didn't support it. Yeah. So there was a desire to go to a fully cloud native system. They had basically two modes. One was classic Jenkins. Yeah. Another one was serverless Jenkins, basically powered by Jenkins file runner as a pipeline engine. But yeah, this mode has concerns about resource utilization and about flexibility. And yeah, the Jenkins size team decided to go with ticked on and they deprecated the Jenkins file runner and Jenkins engines in Jenkins 2. They have never been really removed from the code base. They were still available, but they remarked as deprecated. And in Jenkins 3, these integrations are replaced by other integrations, which basically use more or less standard approaches like deployment health charts, etc. So they can support Jenkins, Jenkins file runner and actually pretty much other pipeline engine service using more or less standard engine. So, but yeah, from the documentation support for Jenkins and Jenkins pipeline is there again. And for example, James Strachan became a major contributor to the ticked on client plugin. And there was a blog post just published today. So I currently believe that currently we in the win-win state between Jenkins and Jenkins X projects. And we should use this opportunity. Yeah, no direction from me. So in the minute, there is a link to Google doc. In this Google doc, we have a couple of tweets submitted for review. So not through standard chat, but through this Google doc, then there is a draft for the expanded LinkedIn post. And there is also also talking points for Jenkins blog post, which I haven't even started yet. But you can take a look in this document about the plan and provide some comments. And I've already got quotes from Key Canyon from James Strachan. So we can use these quotes in the blog post or for any other promotion. And if you want to put your quote, you're more than welcome to do that. Just suggestion to this Google doc. So right now it's a brain dump. Feel free to contribute. If we agree that we can promote this, I think that we will use the opportunity, maybe start from tweets and then we will have a blog post maybe next week. Because this week seemed to be quite busy with blog posts already. And yeah, quick question, budget requests. So we have a few programs, like Shikot Africa GSOC applications. We also had several students from France doing a pen testing for Jenkins who reported a number of security vulnerabilities. Again, the security team is going to write a blog post soon. But yeah, what I'm about is that we likely need to send some swag to these contributors. I started a list. Again, there is a written article about that. So if somebody has any ideas, for example, maybe will you have some other students working on Jenkins or something like that, then you can add this to the distribution list. And yeah. So we still need some budget, because the Continuous Delivery Foundation is happy to donate a lot of swag for us from their coffers. But they have issues with delivery costs. And they cannot fund these delivery costs from this Continuous Delivery Foundation budget this year. So we would need to use Jenkins money. And we will also need to use Jenkins money if we want to produce some custom stickers. Because currently what they have in stock is just classic Jenkins. And yeah, you know, that evil Jenkins is much more popular. Everybody needs it on the laptop. And there are other stickers. So yeah. So I think that we should produce a few packs. I have some more packs of stickers in Switzerland. They can send them to Pinnacle, which packages the delivery is. But yeah, I would like to request some budget just to have freedom to do that. And I do not want to disturb the Jenkins governance meeting every time I need to spend $50 on the package. So I just wanted to ask for a blanket approval for $1,700 so that we coordinate with the advocacy and outreach to see how we spend it. And yeah, let's see. It's my first try at this Jenkins events officer before that. Alisa was handling all these requests. And yeah, I have no idea how much money we would actually need. And let's see. I have no objections to this. I think if anything, we want to try to make sure that we don't send sticker bundles to the same six people, like try to make sure that it's usually new students whenever possible. But yeah. So it's for three. It's not for paying the stipends. It's not for sending something big. It's likely a t-shirt, a few stickers and the Jenkins socks or something like that. And again, there is still an open question. How many would you like to send? But right now the logistics is quite challenging because our vendor, I mean, the Linux Foundation's vendor sends packages only over FedEx. And for example, if you want to send a t-shirt and a few stickers from the United States to Europe, they ask $80. Yeah, so if you want to open your Schwag agency and logistics agency, I guess you have great market opportunity because even in the case of Switzerland, it costs less than $10 to send this package. But yeah. So we will need to figure it out. There is an ongoing discussion because nobody is happy about the current state of affairs. But yeah, I have a work-around plan for a few family deliveries. You're going to start flying to the various contributors and taking vacation, getting away from Jenkins and giving away stickers? Can I expense a bit? You can try. So it's technically you're the only one that has access to the Expensify, probably you can. Well, there is not enough money in Expensify, but yeah. Flying into Europe was really cheap. Not now, but yeah. So anyway, let's see, I don't plan to travel any time soon. And we still have a lot of money, for example, in GSOC accounts, because we reserved money for travel grants for GSOC 2020 participants. So yeah, I still have no idea whether we will ever spend them. It's to be decided, but yeah. I don't think it's the right time for this discussion. Yeah, so I wrote down the three yeses and the no objections. I guess it's only a gear of standing. Yeah. Plus one for me. Plus one for me as well. I've got some budget. Thanks, Sol. And then the last topic is the new one, DevOps World. Yeah, so I just added that. And so I just want to mention that DevOps World is taking place on September 28th through the 29th. We do plan to have the contributor summit, Jenkins contributor summit there, workshops there, and we're hoping to get in a lot of Jenkins talks. So the CFP is currently open. So I'm hoping that we get submissions in on Jenkins. So same question before. What kind of topics do you want to see? Specifically, we recommend people submitting. What kind of topics do we recommend people? As a once in a while speaker, I always are troubled deciding what I should talk about. So it's always a good idea to have some like getting started ideas like here's things you could talk about. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a great one. You know, demos are great. Technical talks is showing how people, how you do certain things, how you solve certain problems, those are great. Case studies, you know, are also great as well as long as, you know, you're not pitching a product and I know you wouldn't. And especially if it's coming from somebody from the governance board, can't pass up on that. Right. I think the best feedback I ever got after the presentation was where I explained something that I considered almost so super easy that everyone knows it and they don't. And they were so happy someone told them because usually they don't know it. I don't remember what it was. And I think, you know, the more advanced users can just figure a lot of things out, which doesn't mean that we shouldn't have, you shouldn't have like more advanced technical presentations. I think they will be exciting too. But yeah, the thing that something seems obvious to someone doesn't really mean that it's going to be boring or not impressive enough, probably the other way around. Obviously, I hit the list. There's an ableist list, obviously one of them. So if you ever say obviously, this is the thing, that's one of those things you just try to avoid because it's not, if you have to say it's obvious, it's obviously not obvious, which is weird because you have to say the word obvious to say that sentence. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Actually, one thing about the call for papers, there was a request and vocals and outreach seek about having a session about how to write CFP for the conference. So I'm thinking whether we could do it as a Saging Online Meetup with several contributors doing some quick introduction presentation, what we discussed now, and maybe having a long Q&A session. What do you think about that? I think that's a great idea. And it also supplements into the program that CloudBees is also offering, which is it's a first come, first serve basis. But they're offering speaking training, public speaking training course. It will be a group kind of training, but it's first come, first serve. Supplements well. Okay. So yeah, let's follow up offline. But for example, I'll just say if you would be interested to host this session, or for example, to do some introduction in this session, and I guess we would find other contributors who would be willing to help. And I think it would be really great. Okay. What is the deadline for the? So it's six weeks. So I want to say May 20th only. You can change it. For example, doing this presentation in early May would be totally relevant. Yeah, it ends May 20th. And then we will also have a booth, a virtual booth at the conference for Ask the Expert. So if anyone wants to sign up for that, just shoot me an email. Are you still looking for program committee members for the community? I have my committee already, but if you're interested in it, just let me know. I currently have four people who will be grading the community. Okay. If anyone wants to participate, you're more than welcome. Oh, that's all the topics we have on the agenda. I can't see my clock. I assume we're pretty close to time though. Yeah, like three minutes. So I guess the next meeting as usual, nothing changes there. Do we have any other topics to discuss? Maybe for the next meeting, yeah, please think about the other topics to put in the list. So I think we could have a more diverse agenda. Okay. Thank you, everyone. And thanks a lot to Gavin for running the session and the meeting notes. By the way, Gavin and Evelina, I grant three permissions, so you should be able to edit this document right away now. And I will add it to my list of what to do when you are watching. Sounds good. See you. Thanks all. Bye, everybody. Bye, y'all.