 David Scullion of Brexit Central and Rosa Boyk of Positive Money. Thank you very much both for joining us. David, let's start with you. How do you judge her performance at the moment over this last week? Well, I think what we've seen over the last week or so with the checkers plan is just a huge divergence from the policy she set out for the last two years. She started off with her Lancaster House speech. She said Brexit means Brexit. A lot of people knew exactly what that meant. But now people are thinking Theresa May is actually betraying the Brexit vote. I was speaking to Nigel Farage on Monday and he was saying that he was going to come back as UKIP leader. He doesn't want to do it. He's going to do it. UKIP are now appalling on 8%. That's only going to increase unless Theresa May drops this policy. Fran, sorry, I introduced you with the wrong first name. I do apologise. No worries. I do apologise. Fran, what do you make of it? What's your position? Well, Theresa May is clearly clinging on with huge divisions in her party. But the vote last night shows that, you know, she is siding with the hard Brexiteers. Pro-European Conservatives tabled the amendment because they think it's increasingly doubtful that she's going to be able to deliver a trade agreement by March 2019. So they wanted to say, if that wasn't the case, that the UK would remain in a customs union. Obviously that failed. The government did win that vote and they've clung on. But that does show how she is listening more to the hard Brexiteers. The concern from Positive Money's view about the vote last night is the concern of the manufacturing industry. Some chiefs have said that, you know, manufacturing will potentially face some parts of the manufacturing industry will face extinction. And when we think about the bigger reason how the UK voted for Brexit, a lot of people did because this is an economy that isn't working for the many. We have seen that we've got a skewed economy towards the financial sector and towards high asset prices. And, you know, the worry is that with votes last night, that will only further exacerbate these imbalances if we're not going to protect our manufacturing industry. David, what about Fran's point there about the concerns of the manufacturing industry? And that amendment specifically last night to sort of stay in the customs union. And it was on the proviso that there was no deal reached by, I think, the end of January. Why is that? That seems like a fairly decent idea if you're a reasonable person. If it's going to be terrible and there's no deal reached for manufacturing, for business, that's a safeguard. I don't think it would be terrible if we don't reach a deal. If we don't reach a deal, we're not going to be paying the £39 billion to the EU. It means we can strike free trade deals. We can abolish this ridiculous check as proposed by Theresa May as proposed. I think the biggest crisis would be a crisis of democracy where people see that their vote doesn't count for anything. People were voted to leave the customs union in the single market. This isn't hard Brexit. This is just Brexit. And people would see that they're actually being betrayed... There needs to be a middle ground, though, doesn't there, David? I mean, you say we're free to strike these trade deals. Which country currently is lining up waiting to sign that trade deal if at the end of January there was no arrangement? Which country right now has said they will step in and here's a free trade deal for the UK? The United States has promised a total reduction of tariffs if we follow suit. So, for all this talk about a trade war that Trump is waging with the EU, actually, what people don't realise is he's actually promised countries a unilateral removing of tariffs if that's followed suit. So, the United States would be won, Australia would be won. We can look to countries in the Commonwealth which don't have similar economies to us so we can get that competitive advantage. This isn't about compromise. People voted. We don't then have a compromise on what people voted for. OK, Fran, that's the way that we're going to get to what people voted for and there are countries lining up to do deals with us. I mean, I think I disagree strongly with a lot of what David's just said. People voted because they want to see the government to deliver an economy that works for people. They want to see their interests being put first. I think if we crash out next year with no trade agreement and potentially going to the US for bits and pieces there, it's probably going to be a pretty much a disaster and it's reckless and dangerous to think this isn't a complex issue. Brexit has many different parts to it, many different things. And whether you voted to remain or to leave, everyone wants this country to be better off and to have an economy that works for people, works for small and medium-sized businesses. And I think it's hugely dangerous for people to be kind of saying that we should just not worry, we can crash out, we can get a deal with America. I mean, that's just incredibly naive and ignorant and it really puts the country at risk, puts hundreds of jobs, thousands of jobs at risk. And, you know, do we want to see the economy going into another recession? OK, David, sorry, David Franz accused you of being naive and ignorant there. We've heard all these arguments before and the time to make those arguments was before the referendum. The time now is to get on with it. And the government, I agree, the government really needs to be getting on with planning for no deal, but that wouldn't be the end of the world. People have made these arguments before, they predicted a recession and that was the time to do it. Now is the time to get on with Brexit, the Brexit that people actually voted for. But I mean, I think that that kind of avoids the point that there isn't any trade agreement, like there won't be a decent trade agreement on the table by January. You know, if there was, that would be a different issue, but there won't be. And so, actually, we do need to think sensibly about what is best for the country, not is what is best for holding the Tory party together, which is clearly Theresa May's top priority. We can control our own imports. That is reckless. Look, we can control our own imports, we can decide what gets into Britain. That's why all these scare stories about medicines not coming into the UK are so ridiculous. The freedom of leaving the European Union is that we can decide what we do, so we can reduce tariffs on imports of things that we don't make outside. I challenge you just to find a single business owner, small business owner across the country that thinks that the way we're heading with the trade agreement is good for their business. David, you've got any business names? Well, you know, James Dyson is not a fan of the EU Customs Union. He had hundreds of small businesses. Reed Steel is a small and medium-sized business, which strongly does not like the EU's Customs Union. You know, and the single market shrouds these businesses in red tape. The Customs Union prevents us from removing tariffs on things we don't make ourselves, making goods cheaper. Why aren't people thinking about the small businesses? Why aren't people thinking about the consumers? It's all about big business, which is what Brussels favours. Fran, final point on the Customs issue. I think that, you know, the way we're heading is potentially exacerbating the problem we've got now with our economy, which is an oversized financial sector. Yes, big business, also asset price inflation, and that's not an economy that serves the people of this country. Can I ask you both just finally, David, first about the gridlock that exists, whatever you're thinking on Customs Unions and things like that, there is this gridlock at the moment in that, as Fran said, at this point in time, and last night she seems to have sort of capitulated slightly the Prime Minister to the Brexiteers. But the simple fact of the matter is that the numbers do not exist in the House of Commons for the Brexit that you're just sort of describing what people would say is a harder Brexit, for want of a better phrase. No, I disagree. People, the MPs voted last night for the UK not to stay in the Customs Union. That clearly shows that the votes are that. And if Theresa May shows more leadership, more MPs will get behind her and maybe withdraw their letters, we'll get the Brexit that we want and there will be the numbers in Parliament. OK, so it's not gridlock, Fran. What do you think? What's your assessment? I mean, I think, you know, no one in their right mind would want to be in Westminster at the moment. It's tense, it's divisive, there's a lot of anger going around, and, you know, there doesn't look like there's a clear way forward. I think that after MPs come back from recess, we're going to carry on with this stalemate, no clear direction, and basically a mess when it comes to, you know, January to March next year, which won't be good for the country. And obviously, we need to start putting the country before politics. OK, Fran from Positive Money, David from Brexit Central. Thanks both for your thoughts today. Appreciate your time. Thank you.