 Okay, thanks guys for having us here today. This means myself, Baskar and Vivek. We're gonna talk about a methodology that Helps us design delightful products What you're gonna hear today is something very different from what you've been hearing so far. It's not you won't see any code I promise you that but it'll be a little it'll be hopefully help you Think about products in a different way and when you go guys when you guys go back and and think about products In your organizations, you'll be able to probably do it better. That's our hope Two more things the way we have structured this talk is I will kind of start off this talk talking about the principles and Vivek will actually talk through a real-life application of how we apply those principles in an everyday product that we work with And how that really changed the game for the product that he runs The second thing is that we have a booth outside where we have some really Top-notch designers Sanjay and Santosh. So if you find some of any of this interesting, please go out and talk to those guys And you'll get a lot more Insights into what we do add into it So let's start talking about what's the last app product that you used that really delighted you? Okay, and I'll show a couple of things here and I'll ask questions as to you know Do you remember any of these can anyone tell me what the first one is? Sorry Wave yeah, some of you do remember it But you know amongst a whole slew of products to Google introduced it somehow got lost and another one is Microsoft Zoom at it actually was a leader at the time that it came out But again, it's kind of lost It's it's it's path. So what why do we love some products? What do we love about those products and there are other products that we don't even remember and and we feel that you Know what we really love are awesome products and what is awesome? What is awesome is that it beyond just a feature function of you know meeting the requirements of that user? It actually connects with you in a way that it touches you in a way where it it makes you feel delighted by the experience of using that product So that's really what we want to talk about design for delight You know what what that is is it goes beyond customer expectations and delivers ease and delight and again I'll just kind of talk about you know, what does that get you so you guys a lot of you work in startups if you were to Achieve something like this beyond the fact that you're truly Serving your customers really well. What else does that get you any any any any ideas about that? Okay, you know what what I think it really gets us and what how it has helped us is that the user who's using that product Actually goes out and talks to other guys and says, you know, this is really amazing that I had an amazing experience Working this product and therefore why don't you use it? You know it gets that word of mouth going and you don't have to spend a lot of marketing dollars Getting your product to to have traction in the market So that's really why we go about doing this particular approach and there are three pillars of this approach The first pillar, which is the most important pillar is customer empathy So we I'll talk about some of the things that we do to get that then in terms of our ideation for the pot For the product we go we go about going broad Then going narrow and the third thing we do which a lot of you already are very well aware of is going lean is I trade of Experiments to understand what really works, right? So I'll quickly talk about these three concepts and then I'll hand it over to awake to talk about how we've done it in one of our products So what is customer empathy? So Scott Cook who's our founder he says it's knowing the customers better than they know themselves And there are some examples that we talk about which which kind of talk about how do you get there? Right, so the most important thing about knowing customers well is talking to them Right is is actually getting in front of customers not just building products on your own But before we actually build products you actually go to your customers and talk to them to understand how they do their things But there's there's a method to how you go about talking to them, right? So when we go and talk to our customers, it's really important that we have open-ended questions So, you know, for instance, did you like your high school? That's a question that something like that would typically give you a very simple answer. Yes. No, I like this I like that But if you have an open-ended questions like what was your high school experience like did you buy a flight tickets online? How did you go about buying your flight tickets? How did you go about making those decisions, right? so typically questions which are Starting with have is would you change that conversation to have cost conversations like why what? How did you go about doing it and the reason that helps you is that sometimes you go with a blinders on? You have a certain specific thing that you're looking for but having open-ended questions Gives you a much wider perspective and makes you think about things you haven't thought about earlier, right? Also, it's very important to have those conversations in a casual manner So when we do have those conversations the first thing that we try to do is to break the ice with with the customers It's not it's not easy talking to just go going into a shop and talking to a customer and therefore it's important to find ways where you break the ice and It's also important to have the script in your head You should not kind of have a very detailed script where you kind of go through a set of questions like a survey It's important to have it in your head You should have a overall framework in mind while you're having those conversations so that it helps you discover certain things I'll give you an example of how we did that in the near future But one more important thing that you should understand is that as you're having those conversations It's important to capture emotions. What's really important in terms of customer empathy is to understand What are the pain points? So if you feel that there's something that the customer is doing which is causing frustration When you go back to you use experience design It's important to remember that and therefore Because that's what you need to address if something is causing real happiness is something that she's really loving it It's important to capture that because those are the most important things that you need to iterate on as you go through your experience design So I'll give you another example where once we kind of talk to customers We also want to observe them in their place of work. Okay, so I'll give you an example here wherein Once we went to our customer and you wanted to talk to him about how he manages his bills, right? And we had it in our mind that you know most They must be managing their bills by due date, right? But we wanted to see exactly how they do it and we went and say showed he she showed us an accordion folder Where in the bills set for due in two weeks were right up front But bills which are past due date were behind and that was sort of a cognitive dissonance for us we kind of went against our thought and When we discovered this we understood that there was a different way the customer's thinking in our mind because the credit card bills which had higher interest rates were right up front and Bills that were not that important but not such a negative impact would behind and Therefore it completely helped us change our user experience design to address that aspect of the customer's thinking, right? So what I'm trying to get at is Important talk to talk to the customer, but important to observe the customer and understand where he she's coming from So quickly I'll just do a recap It's about identifying the real pain point in context of the customer talking to customers having opened-init conversations and Observing the customer, right? The next part about once you've had the customer conversation is to actually go brought with your ideas of how you'll address those customer pain points The important thing up here is to kind of think quantity first again The idea here is to not have something specific that you're working on but first find With your team come up with a broad set of ideas and and actually figure out which one have most traction and And what what that helps here? So I'll give you an example here what we did We had a product called fossil wherein we had some ideas about helping farmers in Get get market information and improve their incomes and when we did that we actually had a mobile product here We actually went through multiple ideas about how we can interact with that farmer in terms of Getting them price information in terms of getting them Location information in terms of getting them what product they want to sell and each of those ideas is something that we I rated with which is the next item that you want to talk about So once you have some of these ideas you kind of build hypotheses about what are your main Hypothesis about how the customer will interact and where your ideas might fail and you this is something that's very common to most of Of you who have worked on startups is to go lean, right? You actually iterate build a Faco back-end if you have to figure out custom behavior based on those lean experiments and Understand your product direction based on those experiments So that in a nutshell is is how we go board designing for delight having customer experiments going broader to go narrow and then Actually iterating really rapidly about what works with that customer based on real experiments that we run and and that's when How we kind of drive the product direction at this one in time? I'll just pass it on to a wake who'll actually talk through a real fix a real life scenario in in some a very a very a Product that you will not expect to to actually drive delight with and and we'll talk about how he we weren't about doing it Okay, so It's great. You know we're designing products that people love and delight Now if you're building the next iPhone you're building the next e-commerce site People love that stuff right people want to buy more stuff people want to sort of enjoy then your iPhone then your whatever device it is But then what we do it into it is we take the most Boring thing that people do file their taxes accounting and try and build the light around it So let me actually I've just go to I was just thinking about this I'm going to give you a little example and this is the way kind of we look at ourselves going to take a very today example that we're talking about here in India in terms of net neutrality and Show you how sort of we want to be John Oliver who sort of shines lights 1996 Oh, you guys didn't hear the wall any of that. Sorry. So basically what John Oliver was saying there is Talking about net neutrality is the most boring thing in the world at yet He was able to shine a light and actually get enough people to go and talk about it and actually get The US Trade Commission to actually pull it back So we do something even more boring We work with taxes right we work with basically the US tax Laws and help people file their taxes in the US Which honestly if you if you look at sort of our customers and building customer empathy, they have to come back every year Pretty much for the first half of the year. They sort of heads buried in the sand Don't really care about their taxes really want to procrastinate until the last minute And yet we want to build a product that delights them constantly We're mostly helping people sort of make sure that they don't tear their heads off And our end goal is for them to feel this way while they're filing their taxes So how do we go about doing it? So the two schools of sort of large thought in product It's sort of the way you design and develop products One is sort of the Steve Jobs method, right? You have a brilliant person in the room He figures out everything that the customer wants Goes out builds it and designs it. Yeah, you have Steve Jobs the iPhone The other is kind of the more boring rinse-and-repeat process that we follow at into it Essentially awesome takes practice So we want to build Delight in a product that customers would rather not use procrastinate and quite often sort of dread the final outcome right end of the day You're either paying taxes or you're owing taxes and just just sort of setting context This is the tax product we build is fundamentally for the US market So the other challenge we have here in into it India is we're really far away from that customer Yet we have to devise mechanisms to build customer empathy To understand sort of how the customers use the product and sort of connect with the customers in many ways That sort of is really hard to do So we we sort of follow these capabilities around D4D that basket just laid out to try and sort of push the envelope on all of these things a lot so fundamentally US taxes are Ridiculously complicated. There's a whole bunch of papers that you get a W2 form a bunch of 1099 forms forms from your Banks form from your investments forms from your healthcare providers and throughout sort of the year right around tax season You need to collate organize this Enter this data somehow and you're sort of two main options are either you do it yourself Or you go to a CPA and we sort of work fundamentally in the do-it-yourself market where we help people file the taxes themselves I Get a little bit of background. We've been around 30 years now our tax product on desktop and web have been around sort of 15 20 years But mobile was something new and we said hey in five years ago Sort of right around when the iphone 3 and iphone 3gs came out We said hey we need to figure out, you know There's a whole bunch of people using this new sort of mobile technology And what can we do to take advantage of that and how can we serve customers of this new channel, right? And it's sort of the first question. We asked ourselves is why why on mobile would some people want to do taxes on On on mobile really why so we actually went out and followed Sort of a lot of our d4d methods and went out and just spoke to customers. We spoke to our existing customers. We spoke to New customers we spoke to customers who use us on the web on a variety of different places We followed people around so I think there are three sort of major ways that we and we And we find this really useful is how we learn from our customers. We We actually have a very large research organization in the US And if you're building products for the US It helps to work with sort of somebody who does this research either on a contract basis Or you have sort of feet in the ground there who actually go in and talk to people who? Observe how they use your product who observe how they use different products and you're not so much looking for Exactly what they're doing on the product but focusing more on sort of their sentiments how they're feeling what they're sort of talking to you about As they're going through the product Another interesting mechanism we use is this concept called follow me homes Where we'll actually follow customers home and sit with them for an hour or two while they're actually working on their taxes Pretty much all of us add into it do it and I think we sort of put ourselves in the customer shoes Which is very important because quite often when you're actually Building designing working on a product you end up not really Looking at it from every customer's perspective You sort of have your blinders on and you're like, you know This is kind of my happy part and this is what I'm going to design So with these follow me homes We actually learn about all these sort of corner cases that customers use our products for how they organize their documents How they organize sort of the way they go through their tax filing process? We find some people who who scan every document and sort it in their computer as it comes in We sign find some people who just put it in a big shoebox and not worry about it later We'll find people who get all their documents together April 14th night Which was day before yesterday and to file on the April 15th deadline So we learn sort of all these interesting things about the customer and the sort of emotions they associate with actually filing that taxes And then what we what we did From sort of going after this mobile product using some of these mechanisms It said, okay, we've learnt all these things about our customer at we learn things about them It's not necessarily involve our product. So again, you sort of have to roll your mind back to When the iPhone 3 3g was launched And you know sort of smartphones were still reasonably new So we spent a lot of time just observing how people use these new devices what? They take photos with them. They use sort of maps and locations if at amount Data entry was still kind of clunky a lot of the keyboard entry like swipe and things were not available So it made sort of data entry a little challenging. The phones were slow You know, they had limited battery life And we just follow users around and see how they use these devices and then try and sort of extract Learnings from that into what we would build into our product So at that point we said, okay, we we know that this phone is out We know people are slowly starting to use smartphones and we've learned these things about our customers Who use the camera fair amount who don't really like using the keyboard too much? care about battery like to use their phone on the go and Receive these documents throughout the year and sort of don't really have an organization basis on that so we actually go through an entire mapping session of What are all the various things we can do right? This is kind of this open-end go-broad-to-go narrow strategy that we do So we put sort of you know have these big boards We put ideas on the wall saying Can we help them sort of do tax as well? They're driving can we automatically get data from the car so that they can sort of deduct some of those expenses Can we have them snap pictures of their receipts when they buy things and that gets automatically important So we basically go really broad and then say, okay Once we've sort of narrowed down from this really broad mechanism We use sort of these mechanisms called two by two matrices where on each one of these axis You basically put the the key drivers you want for some of these features so for instance The y-axis could be customer delight and the x-axis could be You know time saved for the customer something like that And we try it sort of pick stuff in the top right hand quadrant that actually Has positive impacts on both these axes and then try and move forward with them So what do we did do in our mobile story? We actually Went really narrow after sort of figuring out all these things that we can do on mobile and said look the key thing That we can solve with mobile is actually capture somebody's W2 form so most Most everybody who has a job gets a W2 form which lays out sort of what their income is how much federal tax already being deducted and all those sort of things and the Capability is sort of build around that OCR capability that's present in the actual device And so then we said hey, you know We've narrowed down Something that delights the customers because they hate organizing their forms and takes maximum advantage of The camera and the portability and the capabilities of the device itself So we experimented with a very simple use case Snap a photo of your W2 and file your taxes easy You know did it served a very small slice of customers Basically people who were W2 focused and who had only a little Not very complicated taxes We of course sort of put a whole bunch of analytics in the product itself Try to understand behavior try to understand flows within it and you know the the way sort of our products At least online work is we have a free product out there and then There's sort of a conversion funnel where people actually convert to ultimately buy the product So we had 1.2 million downloads of which only we had a 13% conversion. So a lot of people checked us out But ultimately didn't use us to file their taxes only about 13% So we sort of went back to the drawing board and said hey what what are some of the challenges? That we were not able to address with sort of this very narrow approach that we've built With this product that we call snap tax Interestingly enough sort of as a side anecdote We experimented with this in the India market to last year We built sort of a very small Similar to snap tax where you basically take a picture of your form 16 and we generate sort of all the information that's needed To file to the tax authorities here was called tax. Okay, please We launched we did sort of an MVP last year with the product Got sort of reasonable traction in the employee base But a couple of things we also learned from that so again sort of keeping with this philosophy of rapid experimentation and learning is we actually learned that The slice of population in India that focuses on filing their taxes of the employee slice is actually Not that they're not that many problems in that market because your employer fundamentally generates all the paperwork that you need and The key sort of demographic and the key customer sort of pains to solve is actually in the SMB space Which involves sort of filing that and service tax and those sort of things so we're actually experimenting with some of those ideas again in the India market right now So snap tax Simple take a picture of your W2 Reasonable impact so we said how about we bring sort of our full end-to-end capability and shove it on an iPad So this we took our entire desktop experience. It said let's experiment Let's go really broad and get this out on an iPad and have everybody use it. I mean obviously Since we did this really quickly Challenges with this approach where the UI was just awful And it was focused only on one device and we didn't have the ability to sort of go across device So we saw a little better conversion So 225 K users file using our iPad app So which was up from the hundred and fifty that we saw on the iPhone, but it still wasn't great So we said, okay, maybe we should experiment on the mobile web. So we went to the mobile web I mean The fundamental problem we had with the mobile web given that it was such a complicated product Was we were unable to build sort of that really delightful experience that went across all devices You know, obviously sort of one of the Key sort of challenges here is to actually fix that and and I know you guys collectively are talking about that here but At we'd love to sort of embrace some of the learnings out of this specific conference to see how we can actually embrace the mobile web back again, but We had we were so reliant on sort of native capabilities on the actual device that the mobile web didn't really move the needle too much For us. So we said, hey, you know, let's let's sort of rethink this whole thing take a step back and build a full fledged Across device mobile experience Launched this in sort of December of last year We've we've been learning constantly along the way 1.5 plus million downloads You know 50% of the people who download actually file So so we know that we're doing something, right? And we actually know exactly what we're doing right because we're constantly sort of tracking data and experimenting with these customers The interesting thing that we learned was with complex taxes people actually start on mobile Try to do a lot of the paperwork entry on the mobile device by taking pictures But ultimately sort of transition to the web and finish the taxes over there So we actually were able to launch a true sort of start anywhere finish anywhere experience for our customers so but sort of what we're Based on some of these d4d principles based on us sort of diving deeper into our customer base What were some of these things that we learned? Either through our research and all of these things right so our customers While they use the product a certain way and respond to our survey results in a certain way There's some of the key things that they told us where you know, you got I use you guys year after year And I use your product repeatedly during the tax here So show me that you know that you know me right? So if I log in show me that you know my tax situation you don't make me jump through all these hoops every time I'm here and Evoke sort of a positive reaction in the product One of the challenges as I talked about earlier with a tax product is People don't really like using it and there are negative emotions associated with it So to build sort of that habit looped for people to come back with a tax product Find out sort of what are the things that delight them about it right at interestingly enough what we found out That delight people about the product And I think this is what's important on sort of any products that you build is find those things that Actually drive your user back that delight them up for the tax product specifically It was not really something we controlled was actually the size of the return They were going to get from the IRS so it was nothing we did in the product But our key learning was hey, let's sort of put that up front and center So they know the moment they start entering data that number keeps changing You're going to get $2,000 back. You're going to get $800 back You're going to get $50 back as that number keeps changing They're able to sort of relate to the fact that oh as I enter more data I'm either going to get more money back or as I sort of scan in more data I'm going to sort of get more money back or mom I have to pay more money and they they have this kind of it's it's sort of this gamified Reaction to that where they're constantly sort of focused on that one number and it going up and down and trying to optimize it on Sort of what they can do to make it go up and down I Just got to sort of walk you through a few Interesting things that we that are we did in the product. I mean I guess sort of key learnings that we did is we basically Continuously constantly on analyze all the data we have in the product We AB test and experiment constantly And we learned that two major pieces where customers abandon our product where if anything happens around the W2 import flow so we focused sort of so much of our efforts in mobile around the W2 import flow and The other piece was the key delight Like I mentioned was the size of the refund always So if you launch sort of a turbo tax Android product you'll see sort of our core experience is built around that better W2 flow So it's as soon as you come in we're talking about how you should do something with your W2 What you should actually do with the physical paper So you have a better chance of success and and we do things on the actual camera page To make sure that we drive sort of the right OCR capabilities By making sure there's you know we can drive user behavior So if there's poor light or if it's tilted in a certain way We sort of make sure that the users Orient their devices correctly so they can actually get the data into the system and then ultimately focused on Right bang up there what you're refunded so Those are sort of Learnings from how we apply D4D in sort of the mobile context evolved from our essential iPhone 3 world to where we are today with a full-fledged end-to-end mobile product We left about Ten minutes or so for questions. So You know if you guys have any questions either and things that we do in mobile or in other places or D4D in general Happy to take them. Hi. I'm a visit here. So I saw like After gathering that after you decide like what are the tasks they're going to complete or some Some people you decided and that car shorting. I think that procedure on the wall you mentioned, right? So Is there a tool to do those kind of car shorting and Doing to prioritize the tasks or to decide the frequency of use all these things. Yeah, so the great question. So We do so one of the tools that he didn't mention was when we go bro to brought to go narrow We kind of identified most important drivers that will help Drive customer delight and we put those on two by twos to understand You know what are the most once that I'm packed for but having said that we actually have other tools as well To actually go through the entire D4D process something called the next tool I would encourage you to come and talk to Santosh and Sanjay Who will kind of talk a little more details about that particular tool and how it works Something that we can perhaps take offline Hi most of us are from startups and Some of the products we design are You we tend to go towards, you know building minimal viable product So we don't get enough time to get customer experience So how do you suggest for I mean getting the customer Experience is it is it iteration wise or do we start it at the first stage? Okay, so yeah Building the whole concept of lean is to build minimum viable, right? So and if you're trying to do that you're doing absolutely the right thing but the drivers to get there are to do lean experimentation and When we talk about lean experiment like the example I showed you about the app where we were working with farmers We never really had a product to begin with you know We actually had somebody who was getting the customer information behind the scenes and sending SMS's to these guys It was completely manual But the point is that to know what works It's important to kind of understand go through that lean experimentation And once you know that there's something that the customers are actually liking and working with based on engagement That's where that that drives what will be MVP That's just what our standard processes for lean We don't build product first we can try to build the experience first and and then understand what works did answer your question So what could be the better way to you know capture customer experience first? You know, how can we improve the timeline sort? So I just want to know that yeah I think there are tools available and again I think you should talk to there are experienced designers here offline But there are tools available even mobile wherein you can actually fake an experience Where it actually works with through clicks etc to see if people like what they see right and once you kind of get to a point Where you have something that people are actually engaging with they perhaps giving you an email ID to see when this product becomes much More mature work with me when you get to that point where they're giving you currency for a prototype that you have built That's where we actually start building product not before that and and that's how you kind of speed up your build cycle That's what we've seen in the past In the current application You show the demo and they are we found like the Utilities like kind of the functionality but like suppose when I'm logged into the application life what I what I need I'm getting those kind of informations and it's satisfying my needs But what about other experience like Like the emotional impact like what you talked in the first time like It's not only we're just giving a solution, but we are just touching his Like huge emotions or something like that the first slide So what are the things we should take care in application just to give that kind of feel It will not satisfy the or just only their requirements, but to give them a feel like they'll just it'll just wow them like It can be branding it can be interactions like what kind of things we should take care Yeah, so I Think sort of the way we approach this is when we actually sort of go and talk to the customer and learn from a few customers We're actually focused on Three or four things that quote unquote delight them Right, so it while the the w2 experience in our app was core key and critical For the actual functioning of the app the thing that actually delighted the customer was the size of their refund and We learned that only through sort of multiple conversations with people and it's people don't explicitly say this But when we go out and talk to people and and we ask them, you know What what worries you when you're doing your taxes or why do you you know? Why do you procrastinate doing your taxes a lot of their conversations revolve around? Oh, I'm afraid of how much money I'd have to pay the IRS. I'm not sure how much of a return. I'm going to get I'm I don't I don't have the money in the bank right now to pay that So I'm going to put it off till later. So what you sort of get the underlying sort of Customer emotions you get from that is the fact that You're able to then sort of put your finger on they actually care about that one specific number and While you do everything else, right? If you don't show them that number up front You know, they're not going to have a positive That information what we are showing on the application. I'm Very happy with that like suppose user I want as a user I want to know like how much tax I have to pay or from by what are the process from where I can save my tax Those kind of information that is intuitive, but I'm the I just want to know about the other things of easier experience like the way it can that color schemes in that in interaction part Some other details like what are things we should take care and one more thing in some projects If it is a very small project that time you maybe you will not get a chance to do to work with the customer So that time Because when you have a chance then only you can get that contextual information about what they are doing in the real life Or what kind of problems they're fishing so if There is not a scope then what will be what what is the procedure? So Sanjay kind of respond to that So to answer your question So the way that we look at the product is that it has to be very useful to the user So whatever things that or whatever solutions that we are providing through the product it should be usable So the first thing that we have to have an understanding is about the problem The user is currently going through it and understanding the emotion that is going through it For which we are providing the solution So coming to your part about the color and the branding stuff that definitely builds a lot of trust So in case of ours into it branding or the turbo tags or any products that we have those brandings Definitely comes for 30 years of being present in the market So definitely that's taken care at that it comes at the second stage first thing is that whether the product that we are Building is it solving for the pain points or not? What is the one pain point or two pain points that we are trying to address through that solution? we really need to get to that level of details and Definitely When if you look at the final product right the turbo tags the final screen that he has shared right now It has got a very polished and premium look. So that's that's a final stage But initially we really need to focus on that I have one more question like suppose Maybe we have a very targeted audience some targeted users Yeah, and so when you're planning like suppose you have color branding Maybe you are following that if there is no color branding for a particular application It's a new it's a new to market and it's a startup is creating a product that time like how we'll decide the color schemes always in suppose sometime we don't have an option to add a Different color theme option for a particular project in product and suppose what you are creating Maybe other people's are happy with that but suppose stakeholders are not taking with that Then what will be how you will justify your Got it got it. So the way that I look at it. So the color or the branding is actually justifies or Defines the personality of that product So so once we understand who are the users that we are catering for what are the things that we do? Based on that we need to create that product. So product think about an individual How do you personify that individual and that product is stands as an identity which solve for that problem? Let's say that if you think about the branding of Facebook and branding of any What is that tax or banking solutions, right? The personality of these two products are completely different. So when it comes to color theory We really need every color has got a personality associated to it Let's say if you think about green, what are the things that comes to your mind? It's about energy. It's about eco friendliness when you think about orange. It's about dynamism, it's about what you call it Innovation so those are the things that all right. Yeah So you guys build financial products right at the end of the day It means that a lot of my personal financial data is gonna end up in your hands on your servers and things like When you spoke to customers has that ever been an issue? Oh, it's an issue all the time I think certain of our products Fundamentally revolver on storing your financial data on the cloud like mint Right, and if you if you look at sort of again, it's all about the customer and the customer segments We're targeting if you look at the turbo tax desktop product We have a very vehement base who actually doesn't want to be connected anywhere at all So the desktop product is local to the desktop doesn't store any data on the cloud and can work pretty much completely in a Disconnected mode the mint product is more to the more internet savvy generation whose Who understands that banks store all their information in the cloud? They they understand and embrace the fact that there's data out there in the cloud But that doesn't let us get away from you know security and authentication and encryption so and we a lot of our products those are like front and center and we have to make sure that We we sort of tackle those problems head-on as opposed to saying don't worry about it. We've got it, right? at we're doing interesting things in each of these spheres, so Some of the experiments. We're actually running is going beyond just passwords and one-time passwords and things like that We're doing we're using biometrics. So Especially with new phones even though you're using a desktop product or a web product We'll have like a companion biometric capability on our devices We'll actually Encrypt your data using keys that we generate from your biometrics. So it's It's having that conversation up front with your customers and making sure it's front and center in the product