 Okay, you're live. Okay. Hello, YouTube. So, so do we have a pin? Um, I don't see him here yet. Okay. So, so today's meeting. Maybe I just start so today's meeting and welcome every back to the capital markets have a hybrid capital markets, special interest group. And we have a pretty special session today, right? We have Benedict, who's going to give us an overview of Genesis, the green bonds. So I'm going to hand over to her in a moment. So firstly, I have to mention two quick things. One is this is a high links foundation meeting. So we have to make sure we have we have a code of conduct. It's pretty straightforward. You can see it. It's common sense. Diversity is very important to our community. It strengthens it. So please you respect others and treat people in a civil way. I know everyone will, but it's just worthwhile saying that we also have an antitrust code, which we have to follow. So please, if you want to look at more of that, it's relatively common sense as well. Please go and have a look at our website for that. So today, I will just pass on, I think to Benedict, we're going to be talking about green bonds. And I think Benedict's also going to talk a little bit about what's happening at BIS, the Bank of International Settlements. I have to say they have done some amazing work. I think Karen and me and others have talked about, you know, this is the best source of material if you want to learn about CVDCs and virtual assets are really, you know, beautiful work done. So so Benedict, I'm going to hand over to you now. So maybe you could present a little bit about BIS, a little bit about Genesis and the green bonds, and then we're going to go into a Q&A. And Benedict is, I'm here in Discovery Bay, she must be half a kilometer away. But we're both locked down, kind of. Okay. I couldn't find my mute button. Sorry. Okay, I got that now. So something with the screens that whenever you want to do a presentation, it somehow overlays the screen. So anyway, I think I just managed. Sorry for this. And secondly, yeah, there might be a dog barking or some loud noises from children or otherwise. Sorry for having to put that up front. Okay, so I will introduce this morning the BIS Innovation Hub. And I will also be introducing just the Genesis project, which is our green finance project. And then I will also close out with showing you some of the payment projects that the BIS is undertaking, because at the end of the day, given we are the bank for international settlements, our key area of focus is really whether the payment system needs to be innovated, given the current evolution around payments, as you know, with so many alternatives coming up. So just to give you a little introduction to the BIS Innovation Hub, it was only founded around less than two years ago. And I myself have been here one and a half year. And the idea was that we in a systematic way as said on this slide focus on critical trends in technology. But it is the second bullet that is the harder one to achieve is that we should also develop public goods in the technology space. And that our relevance to the central banking community. Now, other than that, we're obviously within our community of the BIS Innovation Hub, we serve as a focal point for innovation for the central banking community. And with a lot of our projects, we actually bring in other central banks, so that they can learn alongside ourselves. So in terms of our presence, you can see it on this slide, we now have about seven presences around the world. And if you imagine that that's from zero two years ago, that actually that's actually quite a lot. Every center is staffed up with a mix of people. It tends to be a centerhead, like myself, that is either internally or externally hired. We then have a series of secondaries from a central bank, in my case, that is from the HKMA. And then we have a series of assignees, these are people that we hire, and that we hire according to their specializations. So my two assignees are our technologists, these are people that are hired from the market, and with a specific focus actually on DLT technologies. For the broader BIS, in fact, we have only three offices across the world. The Hong Kong office is the first rep office, and it was opened more than 20 years ago. And the other rep office is in Mexico, and obviously the headquarters is in Basel, as I suppose each of you know. We, as mentioned, serve as a network for 63 central banks. So we work together with 63 central banks. The classic activity of the BIS was around policy setting, convening powers, and also around research, which you would all be familiar with. The innovation hub's focus being specific on prototype building is actually the most recent addition to this BIS family. So as mentioned, because I was asked for this presentation to zoom into green finance, I will introduce to you project Genesis, which we let out of the Hong Kong center, and which was the first green finance prototype project of the BIS innovation hub globally. So the backdrop to this project was that we felt it's actually really difficult for retail investors to invest in very safe bonds, which are government bonds. That is often the case nationally, but certainly the case internationally. And so what we wanted to do is focus on building a prototype that used DLT and tokenization, and we wanted to zoom in specifically on the green bond space, because we thought that team is very critical to society at large. And as mentioned, we wanted it to be available to retail investors, and we thought that tokenization matches actually really well with the need to fractionalize and are the ability to fractionalize and therefore also this team around democratization and retail investment. For context within Hong Kong, there are bonds issued by the government for distribution to retail. There's only a few such bonds that have been done in the past, and they're actually very well received because typically the government pays a slightly higher percent coupon on these bonds than you would get on a deposit at a bank. So typically what would happen in Hong Kong when any of these bonds are launched is they tend to be oversubscribed by quite large multiples. In addition to that, people will try to game the system. And what I mean with that is they will go to various banks and make a duplicate subscription so that they opt their chances of getting a slice of that bond. What Hong Kong has not done in the past and has announced that it might do so this year is to distribute green bonds to retail investors. So in the past, they have been inflation link bonds and silver bonds. There haven't been yet a distribution of green bonds. We wanted to fit a set within this new team. And as I mentioned, in passing, we also wanted to avoid this problem of duplicates as subscriptions because it actually leads to a lot of inefficiencies in the current paper-based bond issuance and distribution process because the banks need to reconcile and see whether an individual like myself would have gone around to different places to subscribe to the same bond. And obviously, this can be automated through the use of new technology. So in some of the stack that we build in prototype format for this specific use case included the tokenization aspect, the elimination of the duplicate subscription and also all the way to the secondary market. And again, I'll show that in more detail. Now, we started this project with a bit of a research focus. So we brought together a group of 25 global experts that contributed to this first report that you see here. And then we moved on to building these prototypes. So for the first report, as I said, I would just encourage you to take a look at it if you're interested in the topic. It is a very pragmatic overview of the world, you could say, of green finance from the perspective of practitioners. And these practitioners come from anywhere in the private sector, including also NGOs and not-for-profits. So for example, the WWF contributed to this report and also many other organizations that have been active in the context of climate change, such as, for example, the United Nations. The content of this report to just give you a little bit of an overview is that we started with introducing the green bond wave. And as you may know, within the context of green finance, actually green bonds have been the most successful product. Now, that may change in the future since increasingly there is now a recognition of the importance of ESG in investing, broadly including, for example, by pension funds. But around five years ago, when this green bond wave started, there was still very little recognition of the importance of ESG. I would say that ESG in the past year has really gone into a much faster mode, so to say. So section one gives you the context in some of green bonds. Section two then focuses on tokenization and the securities market perspective on tokenization. This perspective includes the perspective of two lawyers, one for primary market and one for secondary market, as well as the perspective from a CIVMA and the Securities Markets Association. We then moved on to a third big theme that often becomes a bit of an overhang when people talk about green bonds. So when people talk about green bonds, to me it's actually a positive message. But what tends to happen is people will say, yes, but they're all these green washers. I think as we all know, there's always good things and they always come with bad things. And so for the purpose of green finance, you could say the bad thing is greenwashing. What that means is people issuing financial products that they call green, but where there's ultimately no checks and balances over whether these supposedly green finance products actually achieve their green goals. So this sector sets out the importance of green auditing and as well as the challenges within green auditing. And it also provides a sense of where DLT can help in this regard. So it then moves on, not surprisingly, to DLT and IoT. It shows how blockchain can be used as a base infrastructure for tracking of green outputs, something that we showed within the prototype that I will demonstrate to you. And this chapter or this section of the chapter was contributed by Olinfra, which is the exact people that have provided to DLT-based data feed for project genesis. We also have a chapter there on IoT, because at the end of the day, DLT might be one of the technologies, but IoT is another. And there's a lot of new monitoring technologies around negative green outputs or pollution that probably need to somehow be linked up to these kind of financial products in the future. Then we moved on to even thinking further outside box and proposing a series of new products that actually could be developed if one thinks really wide-ranging. One is mitigation outcome securities. The idea there is that you link to a bond product, the receipt of the ultimate carbon credits from the investment of that bonds into new infrastructure for renewables. So this idea is actually one that we will further explore the feasibility of this year. This specific section was contributed by the United Nations. And then we continued on by ultimately the worst challenge that we will face in the next 10 to 20 years is climate accounting. Because at the end of the day, for countries to agree to targets under the Paris Agreement, it will be critical that there is a way to to add up whether these countries are really meeting their targets or not. And this is where I think the technology community will not only need to play, cannot only play a role, but will have to play a role because there's frankly no way that this at this global scale can be achieved without technology. And then we ended with a bit of an alluding to the book of Genesis. And if you may know the book of Genesis, it is the first book of the Bible and it is the time when everything was still very green. So we closed here by a little bit of an introduction on how the future could look if we got this right and if we focused on what we now know the science says. The WWF there introduced to what ifs and asked a series of what if questions, what if people did this, what if policy setters did why and it leads to these future scenarios. So I said probably this report is highly unique because it is from 25 contributors and each of which have been long-standing warriors on the green topic. They're not people who showed up, let's say yesterday, because now there's a lot of financial interest in this and money to be made. These are all people who have to a large extent actually dedicated most of the last 10 to 30 years to this cause. So in some now I move to the Genesis prototypes themselves and the prototypes actually very nice videos of them are available on our website and I will later show you you know where to find these but in some for this distributing tokenized government bonds, green bonds to retail investors. We made two prototypes and one prototype was built with digital assets are dammel and the other one was built with a consortium of standard charters called the Liberty Consortium which was a combination of standard charger bank and shareable asset. And as I mentioned for both prototypes the green feed was provided by all infra which is a startup that started actually in Hong Kong and the co-founder is still based in Hong Kong. So to start off with the similarities between these two prototypes and when you look at the videos that are available on our webpage you will see the similarities. So to just tell you the similarities it includes automated onboarding. So what these two prototypes did is they integrated a private sector app and you know there are many of these apps that are now used by any of the fintech startups where you show your face you show your passport you do your liveliness check and in a few minutes you're actually being verified that is your identity verification. But to this specific prototype we also wanted to add the verification versus public sector databases so in Hong Kong the public sector database that is still work in progress is I am smart. So again both these prototypes included a very efficient private sector app based onboarding and both of them explored the addition of the connection to the government verification databases. And I know within your community you're very focused on identity. Identity to be reliable ideally has a source of truth and the source of truth can be government databases of identity specifically in countries or jurisdictions that have a strong identification infrastructure. I would put Hong Kong within that I arrived here 23 years ago and I was given a identity card unlike in certain places in the world where you still don't have an identity card. So we all have identity cards we've had them for over 20 years and they have been increasingly automated. So as long as the database behind this also automates and becomes more API friendly which is what the efforts around I am smart are then this becomes a very efficient verification feed for any fintech startups or for any applications like we are demonstrating here. Secondly the second point of similarity between both prototypes is that they provide a full DLT based cycle of bond issuance. In addition they both control duplicate subscriptions by retail customers and thirdly they both have secondary market functionality. So I showed here one extract of one of the videos but obviously you can start your subscription you can invest in the bond you can allocate a bond then this bond will be settled coupons can be paid and the bonds can also be redeemed all on the through the prototype that we have developed. And as noted because this is about Hong Kong government bonds in fact this process is managed by the Hong Kong Monetary Authority so the Hong Kong Monetary Authority is providing the approval process for this bond issuance to go ahead. Again I would encourage you to look at the videos because they bring this much more to life. So the other similarity as I mentioned between these prototypes is the green transparency functionality and as I mentioned for this functionality we have linked it to all infra. What all infra does is it tracks green data of renewable projects so to put it very simply if there is a wind farm or a solar farm there are meters attached to that farm and these meters they track the renewable output that is being generated by those renewable farms you could say right. And in some these can be registered on blockchain so that you avoid the provenance issues that blockchain in many other applications is also seeking to address. In some you avoid that the same carbon credits are used twice. This feed was connected to both of the prototypes and here you see the extract or the screenshot of one of the prototypes showing the green impact. You can also see this each of the videos actually juxtaposes the view of the issuer of the bond versus the view of the investor in the bond. So here the investor has invested 50 000 Hong Kong dollars and you can see that there is a green impact a green impact indicator right there. So the key differences between the two prototypes so the functionalities are quite similar. The difference is the underlying blockchain so in the case of Liberty they decided to use the stellar blockchain and the stellar blockchain was used because it actually has lower cost for transfer than exists in the case of Ethereum. The second prototype was built on apologies my bird is starting to make some noise so I'll get him moved. Sorry for the screeching. Okay the second prototype is built by digital asset and it is based on permission-based blockchains using the Damol language. So quite different in some in the underlying technology and both as you must keep in mind are prototypes. Both these prototypes sought to be fully compliant with existing rules and regulations and achieved that through using these different blockchains. So as I mentioned we have videos available and I would say for this we have four videos available two that explain this in simple terms like I just did and two that give you the full overview or the walkthrough of the prototype. So for those who found this interesting I would encourage that you take a look actually at these different videos. So as I mentioned I will spend just a little bit of time also on other projects we're working on in the payment space. So within the Hong Kong Center the biggest project we're working on in the payment space is the so-called Enbridge. It is the multiple CBDC platform. To put things in context what this really is is it's obviously DLT-based but sometimes the word CBDC might be confusing. In fact if you look at this this is an issuance and redemption platform for national currencies so that settlement can occur on a PVP basis and consequently it is indeed a CBDC platform but if you wanted a simpler word for this it could be a new international payment infrastructure. So what it in some does it allows different jurisdictions and this is illustrated on this slide to come onto this platform so currently the test is going on with four jurisdictions the People Bank of China, the Hong Kong HKMA, the Central Bank of the UAE and then the Bank of Thailand and these different central banks are on the platform and can issue and redeem tokens at the request of these participant banks the banks in these different jurisdictions. What this does it is actually eliminating the steps of the cross-border sorry of the correspondent banking infrastructure and for those who study that you may know that correspondent banking is an incredibly useful infrastructure but the question is whether it can be now replaced with better infrastructure. So what I mean with extremely useful infrastructure is that in the absence of a solution like we're now thinking about building in the absence of that correspondent banks have served the world globally in moving money from one side of the world to the other side of the world and as you would know as well correspondent banks have enormous regulatory burdens including compliance risk etc so when they move money they move it safely and they move it in compliance with rules and regulations but obviously because it's built on a more older road you could say than we're now envisioning it can be slow and it can be costly so slow means that it can take several days for a transfer to arrive on the other on the other end of the world it already depends on how many correspondent banks are operating in the target market. Secondly in addition to that it also can be quite costly and the cost is estimated that for small transfers it can easily be up to 10 percent. Now one must take that point with a slight grain of salt because for big transfers it is much less than that size of a percent so the cost is really on the small transfers and I think you probably the participants are very familiar to what's happening in the crypto sector and obviously this kind of this kind of approach can be useful to cut the price of small transfers however for very large transfers they must be completely compliant to not create excessive risk including compliance risk are terrorism risk are are other kinds of nefarious activity risks. Secondly such transfers if one does a transfer of 300 million one wants that transfer to be done on a safe infrastructure and so the context for central banks looking at building such new DLT based infrastructure is really to provide that safety that the banking sector provides while also seeking to reduce the cost and secondly increasing the speed so the other image here on this slide illustrates for you very simply what this is about it is about nothing else than what you know about every day it's about trade it's about sending goods from one country to another getting payment mates and get them being paid faster. So just to highlight to you that this is not the only cross-border payments on the DLT project that we have going on in the BIS Innovation Hub we have this project within the Swiss Centre called Jura that just issued this report about two weeks ago and we also have more projects including for example in the Singapore Centre for which the report has not yet been issued. Furthermore within the Singapore Centre we also have a payments project not built on DLT which is Nexus for which the blueprint was released late last year and which will go into much deeper prototyping this year. So in some if you found this interesting and if you want to learn more about the BIS Innovation Hub I would suggest you take a look at our website if you click on Teams you will get to this view this specific page view and if you click on each of these styles you will be able to see all the projects that we got ongoing on each of these teams. So anyway I hope that was helpful and I will stop it here. Excellent. Excellent thank you thank you thank you so much Ben and I did a lot of material there so much. That's a short period of time thank you very much and also as we're on Hyperledge I will mention the fact that I know for the Danmore that was that we used Hyperledge of Bezu and Hyperledge of Fabric and I know the Enbridge as well was running on Hyperledge of Bezu but here we're kind of agnostic to the technology but it's great that we'll give you the concepts for DLT. So now we're going to go to Q&A right and I know a lot of people told me they will they want to ask questions now I've got to pull them out. Vipin do you have anything so actually maybe Vipin I think we should get Vipin and maybe David who have both been very much involved in coordinating this meeting today right. There's Vipin Vipin's with his beautiful flowers in New York so what do they call those flowers again I've forgotten they're a Wisteria. Wisteria from Central Park. The mysterious Wisteria. And David and David in sunny central Hong Kong so Vipin do you have any specific questions and anyone please yeah just just speak up or maybe put your thumb up or question I'll put a question in chat and let's start start start we have we have Benedict here great opportunity. One of my first questions is about the infrastructure you built for green bonds. Lot of the parameters lot of the attributes lot of the flow is similar to other bonds I mean there are differences in the green bond space especially the provenance the all-in-fra you know auditing you know that kind of stuff but can there be a way in which we can build this so that we can create let's say regular sovereign bonds with variations like green bonds will have these differences parameters other bonds will have other parameters because we are trying to create this kind of a you know this kind of a generic infrastructure for every for different kinds of bonds what is your opinion on that. Okay so in fact the damel technology as you know is specifically geared towards making the distribution of bonds of any sort automated through the use of the LT and tokenization so on damel's side that that is the core one of the core areas of focus so as part of the of the basic suite of damel products you can you can issue these bonds so you might recall on one of the sites I showed you know the bond issuance right so this is quite standard to damel and and obviously damel is not the the only one there are various other of these tokenization platforms like like securitize for example so the tokenization itself of bonds I think is is not novel so and we were fully aware of that and that's what we wanted because you don't want everything to be novel in what you do because then you can't achieve your ankles so the two novel aspects you could say of of this prototype are a that it was geared towards a Hong Kong government bond issuance and b that it involved green bonds you could say the the retail aspect was also novel in the context of a government bond but of course it's less novel in the context of tokenization more generally yeah and so as you mentioned to to try and link up this this green feed that's where a lot as I mentioned if if countries really have to fulfill their obligations under the Paris Agreement there will need to be a lot more of these measuring technologies are a lot more of the linking up of these measuring technologies to to the issuance of financial products including bonds two more follow-ups one is do you follow any standards are there such standards in the market today second is obviously it's not just issuance you have to follow the bond through its entire lifecycle settlement payments of coupons you know mature maturing and retiring of the bonds so all all of that is also part of the whole flow of the bond so in that sense have you looked at that or yeah so so I I think obviously these are prototypes and as you as you know with the prototype you're not studying a production ready system and and just for context if we if we needed to look at production ready the cost would have been about 10 times the cost of doing a prototype so there is a reason why people first do prototypes because it is a limited exercise with the limited cost label and it can then show or demonstrate whether this this can be explored for for actual production ready right so some of the questions you ask about ultimately the late like the late life cycle you could say of a bond worst case there could be a bankruptcy now with us that's very unlikely because it's a government bond so again we controlled for for the difficulty of these questions but surely I can say I haven't studied into how well these tools can be used for restructuring of a bond so one of the reasons why why bonds are oftentimes specifically corporate bonds are still very much OTC products is in part because of these complications that might come up like like bond restructuring so yes I have not stressed as the T systems for for that yeah I mean the standards question was the other one because I see money on on this call he has built a we had built you know complete system for et al for example where we followed IWS standard and money built also built settlement platform based on CDM which is a standard used for life cycle so the life cycle usually of swaps and derivatives but can be repurposed for a bond because usually it's a series of payments or something like that depending on the coupon and there are some other integrations like you know you have to observe certain interest rates out in the wild and then try to you know if it's a spread over LIBOR or some other some other index or whatever it is anyway I don't want to dwell on this because there are people who want to ask questions there's somebody named Cliff who seems to have his hand up so I don't want to take up all the time Cliff from Sydney Cliff how are you I'm good how are you Julian yeah do you want to ask a question yes I do have two questions to quite a brilliant presentation nice to know this great POC there by BIS so my first question is that for the screen bond project from payment point perspective would the cryptocurrency being considered as the part of the payment in the future the second question was the moving forward any more information can be shared for BIS some you know future plan to coverage on the whole ESG area thank you yeah so so firstly on the payment side so that was also part of the prototypes is to and it's covered in two prototype reports so I send to you the link I put it in the chat here the link to the two videos but there's also there the link to the reports and you can see that both prototypes explain how they linked up with the payment system now both prototypes also concluded that it would be much easier if there were either stablecoin or a CVDC in the process so for now the idea was let's just assume there is no there is no CVDC so let's just assume that the system must be somehow connected to the to the currently existing payment system like like the FPS system and and that was feasible actually it was viewed to be more than feasible actually it's really feasible but it was also viewed that for the payment for example of the coupons and specifically when the coupons are in very small amounts which they will be invariably if you fractionalize upon to to our target which was a hundred Hong Kong dollars per person then then to have these other payment mechanisms will will be what is probably more efficient so we were looking at stablecoins more than cryptocurrency for for this purpose yeah and then the second question in terms of what else we will be doing so this year I said we will do an extension of Genesis called Genesis 2.0 so we will relabel this one as 1.0 and for 2.0 we will be looking into mitigation outcome securities i.e having the carbon credits that are outputs from an invested project to actually vest directly to the bondholders that is one thing we will be doing as said it is described in the in the paper in the chapter contributed by the United Nations but secondly we also have a new center starting in the euro system and that center is very keen on on covering more green topics now they they haven't defined their project suite yet so until they define it we will need to we will need to wait and see what our focus is separately within Singapore they're focused on a sub-tech project a reporting project that is called ellipse and it was focused on mortgages in creating common data standards across central banks and it will now pivot towards a focus on ESG and green data and all of these things are announced so of course I'm not disclosing confidential information so if you look for our work program for 2022 it was just announced about two weeks ago yeah cool thanks a lot Bendeck for the great information shared thank you again thank you thank you for the question and now I'm going to call in and Santanu who's put his hands up he's from Mindtree one of our members so Santanu do you want to ask a question or a couple of questions thank you Julian it was a tremendous excellent session I really felt grateful my first question is like why damel has been considered for some this the project too and my second question is some thoughts if you can share just you know one of two lines regarding nexus project okay so the nexus project I want to pine on because it's really handled by the Singapore center and and since I since I have a lot of my plate myself with Enbridge and we actually two retail CBDC projects I didn't talk about and an SME project and Genesis I frankly don't even follow too much in detail so your question on nexus I would suggest you you can pose it to the Singapore center as to why damel in fact for every of these for every of these projects that we undertake we do an RFU process or a request for quotation and we felt that on on the balance of of what we needed for this project and keeping in mind a set that we did need the bond issuance unit of this we felt that damel was it was quite a good match thank you and actually we're going to have we're going to have another session with Karen who's here from from digital assets and others we're going to go into the into the detail because it is a proof of concept so nothing secret right so we can go into the real depth of power and that's the other benefit of POC right we're going to go into into the nuts and bolts of how that how that worked how they pulled Bezu and fabric together in the same implementation so that's for another another session soon I'm going to pass I think now I think David I know you had a you are eager to ask a few questions should I hand it over to you David now and anybody else please put your hand up if you want to ask well I would say that I noticed that my final x staff who worked on this project is seemingly dialed in so if it if you ask difficult questions you can target them right at Marceau yes yes I saw Marceau was on earlier on hi Marceau are you well my friend yeah thanks for having me never a problem never never a problem and so I've asked I've got two questions but I'll ask the first one then maybe if there's anyone else from the audience who wants to ask a question so obviously with green finance one of the critical things for me is obviously about rules laws regulations but another big part is about financial inclusion surely though if we look at what green bonds are going to do if you're already in the capital market sector you're already an investor then you all you're doing this is just a another asset isn't this just another asset that you can invest in how how will green bonds really drive up financial inclusion because of say if you're in the retail sector already you can go you can buy a bond how how can green bonds really help people who are maybe not well served outside of financial inclusion what can green bonds do for them because ultimately as we all know they could be the sector societal sector that's also mostly impacted by the impacts of things not being green yeah you're asking a really difficult question because um so so I'll answer in two ways one with supply chain and one with these mitigation outcome securities so the reason why the UN is focused on mitigation outcome securities is because a lot of the projects the difficulty really is to get funding so let's say I let's say I want to build a solar farm or a wind farm and and let's now assume it's it's a medium size it requires a significant amount of capital and it's very hard to raise that capital right so the the UN's position is that if you if you give the bond investor the exposure to the carbon credits then the the product becomes more interesting than just a simple bond so for for genesis one we we piloted a simple bond you could say right and and the reason we did that is because um as I mentioned at the beginning Hong Kong government bonds are very in demand it doesn't actually matter you know that the coupon is 1% 1% is still higher than 0.2 at the bank but if you look at it on a global level and you say okay you want to get financing over to renewable projects it's incredibly hard and so in some having that mitigation outcomes outcome security aspects might might make the might make it more accessible to raise funding for renewable projects now where does that link to financial inclusion is that point I just made is particularly relevant in the view of the UN for emerging markets so because there it's even harder to raise capital for such projects and if you put things within context I mean I'm obviously not an expert on this matter but if you think about where more land is available or more sun is available I would think it's in a lot of these places so you have you have the places where you have the place but you don't have to financing so in some that's why we're thinking about exploring this mitigation outcome security idea however on the second point I think if you really talk about grassroots financial inclusion then you're thinking and I mean you mean with that I mean I'm going to assume what you mean with that so for example if I'm a farmer in in a remote country let's say in Africa and I do organic farming currently I cannot build up my credit history because none of my invoices are in in DLT format are intrasable intrasable systems so in some I live in the cash economy I get cash for my organic farming and I don't really build up a credit history that enables me to to borrow more money so I can do a bigger organic farm so in that sense I think that is probably the more directly relevant area of financial inclusion to your question and that I think will be achieved through supply chain transparency and that's only will link itself up in the end to green bonds I think when companies start issuing these green bonds specifically in order to green their supply chains and specifically to roll out the technologies that it takes to green that supply chain I definitely think we're in very early stages of this but I do think it's it's definitely something that you would want to see so for context when I first looked at DLT one of the things I really fancied was a startup that was creating transparency around diamonds and diamonds are as you know quite a quite an interesting product because we all wanted but there is an enormous amount of slavery in the process child labor in the process and these these type of diamonds which might be on your own ring are kind of referred to as blood diamonds so to trace blood diamonds you can reverse it by making the supply chain transparent and that concept was around already at the onset of DLT so we're talking now around 2015 when when DLT started spreading from its original bitcoin application to broader applications and I think that's what we will see now more broadly applied to supply chains and and I do wonder if we will get to an outcome where literally you walk in a supermarket and you can scan the product and you can see the green label it has now and and maybe all the way to where it was formed from I really don't think that's so far out of the future I think that will be our future within 20 years if not within 10 years and as part of that I said the end point is that the farmers credit is now being traceable and when the farmers credit is traceable you can get more of that better green and organic activity so again in fact these are all linked topics it's just that if you talk financial inclusion I normally mean people really are excluded and and and that's where I think this is relevant. Excellent I agree and very much that down the line you could see where an organic farmer not only benefits from the selling of the actual product but can benefit from putting that extra capacity that they've generated by doing green farming and could use that as like carbon credits to sell that in a secondary market as well so I think that that ultimately will be will be very good. I did have another question but I'm going to concede the floor to Angela. Angel and also there's Elizabeth as well who's calling who's asked a question on the Elizabeth green so Angel he's from you're on mute. Thank you very much two questions one is about the cost benefit side of this project and what you guys can you provide a little bit of insights on what is driving the 50% reduction in the origination phase you know what are the big drivers there and then the second part if you guys have thought about or talked about the implementation stage right taking this to the next step is it an incremental approach do you start in a functional area do you start on the back end or do you go big bang thank you. Yeah I think that Karen has put her hand up and maybe she can answer your first question on where the cost reduction is most prevalent in terms of me answering the second question look I work set for the VIS which is an organization of 63 member central banks and as you may know central banks move their key focus is safety so they're not going to move incredibly fast and it's the same actually with with governments in general so with this project our key target was really to show what is possible and and we think it will we we in some road show these things to our member central banks which are 63 of them not every central bank by the way plays a role in in the government's palm distribution that that tends to be country dependent but quite some do and and I'm sure that this will saw the seats for for innovation to take place now to answer it simply I don't think it will be implemented overnight it will take a little bit of time and so in that regard we are slightly different from also a private organization to your question on cost benefit we we are not we are not under commercial pressure to to put it into into practice right away so the beauty is we can show the path to implementation and we can spread the gospel yeah and I think eventually we'll go into this direction anyway but it's maybe not tomorrow Karen that's a great question I think the cost benefits needs to be studied for every also projects like for enterprise blockchain to take place or a public version of that too because without cost benefits I think technology is interesting for technology sake and to answer back your question the 50% reduction is driven by the efficiency so that's the time we think that the time span for origination can be cut down significantly from around two months to one month and a lot of that is already covered by candidates earlier sharing it's because during this retail subscription in Hong Kong currently the government wants to ensure it's happily oversubscribed so government wants to ensure that that government does want to ensure that each citizen has its fair share so that's why there has been a lot of checks that are required and the synchronization for that's by having a common data set and the synchronization between all the banks that we will be able to eliminate the double not the double spend here but the double subscription and in terms of the exact dollar amount we also went quite aggressive to estimate and we estimate around 18 basis points like benefits that can be realized some of that I have to say it's driven by automation either you can do it in a DLT system or you can also realize that through a centralized system however with the DLT it opens up for a lot of new use cases and also potentially an interconnected networks so we can marry the primary issuance and secondary issuance and also build up different use cases on top I hope that answers your question or need to elaborate thank you very much I really appreciate that great presentation thank you thanks and thanks Angel for being up so late I know it's late though he's not he's not that late compared to me all right so all carers so you're the midnight crowd right he's the late evening crowd the LA crowd I think yeah I think the time has happily come to a close with a beautiful presentation by Benedict thank you so much so Julian you should take over and okay so I'll quickly wrap up right actually any other questions maybe we'll just get one question Neil I see a Neil has raised his hand Neil do you want to quickly ask a question I don't know what how much you're yeah thank you this Neil from the New York area I have a question on the project but it is it says upcoming on the site I just want to know that you know when it's going to start and are you able to give a preview I know we're up on time so you know catch up separately that's fine but I wanted to get some context to what the scope of this is okay so I actually don't have detail on this project because it's not within my center so um so yeah I don't think I'll be able to to enlighten you today on that one all right except and now I remember I think that is the new name of ellipse so that's what I said it's it's ellipse is pivoting from from mortgage data to to ESG data I see it's out of the Singapore center okay sorry I would have I may have missed that ellipse because I joined a little late is that on your site to look up yeah so ellipse is definitely on on the website under SUPTEC so and and it was formulated as a project to standardize data requests on mortgages across central banks so that you could more you could aggregate the data and the latest is that they are looking at using some of the learnings from the prior prototype to the ESG space and and I think the the new name you mentioned is is in some the new name of of that ellipse are the extension of the ellipse project okay thank you that helps I'm able to access that document yeah so I'll go through that thank you very much all right thank you Neil thank you thank you everyone for your questions right thank you um benefit for for an amazing conversation I think we could have had a five-day seminar on this so but we've done it all in an hour so I think we'll we will have many many things to follow up um so uh everyone thank you for for speaking are we if you're watching this on youtube we have our links down below so please join the mating list we now do have a linked in uh special interest group but capital market special group linked in so please connect to that as well uh and uh yeah take care everyone look after yourself and take keep safe and thank you again definitely Ben D for an amazing an amazing presentation very much appreciated thank you for sharing great take care thank you bye bye everyone thank you