 Hello everyone, this is Ross a teacher talking the most influential blog on education in the UK today I'm not biased, but I'm delighted to be joined by Tom Rogers one of me Twitter mates and I'd like to unpick His brain. I know a lot about his teaching experience So I'll probably just we'll skim over that part just for people that might be new to Tom And we're gonna unpick his work with teachers radio edgidates so if you're single and looking for love stay tuned and Our views on toxic skills and we'll probably talk about Twitter at some point So Tom, thanks for your time. How are you? Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad, Ross So let's start with them give us a little historical overview of your teaching career to date Well just in a nutshell qualified 2008 Eight PGCE 2007 eight and then since then I've worked as a teacher slash middle leader in 10 nine or 10 schools For very indifferent lengths of time my first school was five years The next year was two and a half and then two and a half and then since then I've kind of gone For shorter term contracts the last contract that it was one year and it was a part-time contract That's as things that I've been doing on the side of got bigger or yeah So you've done some work international a being Spain and Slovenia was it? That's it. So I did Spain and I also did Slovenia. So Spain First which was absolutely amazing Just probably all around the just the best best experience And then yeah went from there to Slovenia Yeah, there wasn't such a good time was it for you no Right, well, we'll skip that chapter, but so you're in the Northwest of England now Yeah, there are Liverpool. Where are you just moved to Manchester? From from Liverpool. So I wasn't Liverpool move to Manchester. So You know 14 years teaching and your dabbling with lots of different side hustles are supposed to you You've got teachers radio edgy dates and we'll talk about a few other things, but I'm tell us Tell us about how edgy dates started. Was it so was it with your idea looking for love or was it a bit more than that? Well at the time I was pretty depressed and I'm pretty single to be fair So I know I mean It didn't so what in December 2019? I was like I Remember I I kind of like was playing with the idea of I just was intrigued by this idea of setting up a speed dating event For for teachers. I thought it was a cool idea. I thought it was it would be fun It would be a laugh. So in in December of 19, I was looking at like I Was in Leicester at that time I was teaching in Leicester and I was like, oh, why don't I just run this event over Christmas And I was looking at sort of venue and whatever and whatever and it never really Realized but I kind of set up an event bright pages like a draft and whatever and I was like, oh, yeah This would be cool. This would be but it was literally just gonna be a laugh really and then And then I kind of got distracted by other things and then and then obviously the pandemic happened in the March by that time I was teaching in Blackpool and It kind of got to the April or May or whatever it was and and my contract in Blackpool was due to finish anyway in the June So in the May it was either the April or May. I was just like Sat there and I thought ah What about that speed dating idea that I had but like let's do it virtual Yes So I just like put out a tweet as you do and it was like oh Why don't we do this do this and then it got a lot of interest Okay, and um, and then I thought okay like I'll make it a really simple speed dating format and initially it was just people using WhatsApp and then obviously It was a case of people would have these dates people would match at the end of it and Obviously, I think the key to it was calling it edgy date because it was just funny I think it create it create I'm flicking through the website now as we talk and it's You know, it says what it is on the tin and you've got your three-pound lucky dip and priority and all those types things So how many people are? Dabbling with the dating on your site. So at the moment there's so in total there's 5,000 people who have signed up for edgy date Now obviously a lot of it as with I guess I'm not an expert on online dating websites but I would presume that The membership is intermittent because you've got people who are single and then they're not single and then they're single and so on and so forth Yeah, so in terms of active users It's quite difficult to calculate that but I would suggest that it would definitely be in that in the hundreds of people who are Engaged still engaging with edgy date Yeah, on a regular goal is you want to bring people as a platform for teachers who might be looking for someone interested in education But I guess if I'm a member for ten years, it's not a good endorsement. Is it? Yeah, I mean we have got success stories in the sense of like One member of edgy day contacted me would have been about three four months ago now and said, oh, we're expecting a baby It's just quite exciting and that that baby's due I think next month. So that's interesting success story Yeah, and then there's other ones who've moved in together who you know other couples who I met a couple actually For the first time face-to-face A couple of months back and that was that was nice So you doing all this yourself or have you got a little team to help you? So at the moment, I've been doing it completely on my own up until about three months ago when I Brought someone else on to kind of help me out a little bit Just with because the thing is I've always been crap at data and Spreadsheets and databases and all that kind of stuff, which is obviously very very important with something like edgy date So, I mean I was managing it myself Up until then like I had a little bit help of my girlfriend at various points, but essentially it was me and then Yeah, so the last three Last question, you know, I'm a married man, so I'm not looking for a date, but How does the you know, obviously log in you look for people but the actual physical event you organize What does that look like for people listen describe it to me? So in the last two to three months, we're transitioning from running the online events into Now where you have the more traditional galleries on there Whereby you would have galleries with profiles and then you can click on a profile and you can send that person an instant message Right So that's that's where we transition to but we are still gonna run events So we've got like an online portal where like we're gonna have like video and text events and all these kind of things But we haven't run one yet. So it's interesting to see how that goes. I guess I've got my final kind of school leader type question I suppose from an egg tech perspective or just in general maybe Something you've already considered but safeguarding. How do you? Protect the right and wrong people signing up, you know, what what if I'm a bit of a a bit of a dark side and you know Whatever else what kind of protocols are you got in place? so there's three things really the first thing is when people sign up they have to verify their account by Including a link to another social media account, which is I mean usually we ask for a professional link on so LinkedIn for example, and then That's quite a good way Initially collecting credit card details and stuff like that So so at the moment with the galleries the galleries are only open to priority members Which means there's payment verification and all the priority galleries are password protected So anonymity right from the word go has been an absolutely crucial issue for me because I know when I very first started There were some Questions criticisms online as you get when you start anything to be fair especially on edgy Twitter But you know there were people saying all this could happen So I actually thought very carefully about that in terms of like how to do that So now we've transitioned for example away from the exchange of phone numbers So no one has to exchange a phone number with another person. It's all automated. It's all Edged a via a day via the website But the verification there's payment verification the social media verification and also there is a So there's it's even though we've got 5,000 members a proportion of those members. I ask for a Photograph of their ID So they have to actually provide they have to actually provide but to be honest when you're doing it yourself and it's And it's more a manual process You could and you've been on social media long enough to know as well is when you you You start to pick up the warning signs You know, yeah, I'm glad it's a big job for you to be doing on your own full-stop and while you're still teaching it's Significant work pressure. I will know let's swap to teachers radio So does it give us a 30-second lift pitch? What is it? How can people get involved if they're not sure about it teachers taught radio biggest audio platform for teachers in the UK 50 50 plus People involved 30 plus volunteer hosts It is voluntary The hosts all have their own shows They produce content that's available live and as a podcast I think that's what's unique about teachers taught radio is all the shows are live We do have some recorded segments, but 90% plus of what's there is happening when you're hearing it the Yeah, the aim really is to inform it. It's to entertain. It's to offer analysis. It's to offer Things that happen now unlike a podcast that might be recorded and then it might come out a week or two weeks later Or whatever it is teacher taught radio is there. It's in the moment. It's happening and it allows perhaps a slightly different medium See it's topical provocations. Yeah, all that type of stuff. Yeah, and the hosts You know that generates their own agenda I guess to Draw in their own viewers and or listeners I should say Absolutely, and you know, it's I mean the host can control the content that they want to put out They want to talk about and you know, I've been part of it myself and I listened to it when I can So you got all the jingles, you know, who's the person doing all the voiceovers and all that's great That's our Graham Graham column. He's a voice over voice. He's actually a mate from uni I went to uni with so I knew he was a voiceover artist when I started teachers taught radio So I so last February I was like, oh, it's your fancy doing and he's he did it and he's yeah He's well so they're all recorded out there or I guess he's not sitting there doing it live No, no, they're all recorded the jingles are recorded. Yeah. Yeah, you wouldn't want to repeat that six times in 90 So is that is the show on 24 7 pretty much? No, so there's a schedule I mean, obviously you can follow the podcast on Spotify or whatever and you can get all the all the shows Apple podcast Spotify tuning radio all of them and you can listen to everything back But there's a schedule. So at the moment Monday to Friday, it's 11 a.m. Full 12 midday It's 4 p.m. Oh, sorry 6 p.m. Through to 10 p.m. So 11 till 12 and then six till 10 Monday to Friday Saturday and Sunday is slightly different But yeah, and there's always room for another another host. There is absolutely room for another host So yeah, I'm offering yet. I'll text you I'll text you after this Right, I want to I want to stir your beans I suppose I want to talk about toxic culture I want to talk about off-stead, which I know will drive you a bit mad And then we'll talk about the the highs and lows of edgy Twitter So and then by then you'll be ready to Strangle me. So let's talk about Toxic schools first. So we did an event a while ago, which is quite popular one, wasn't it? Yeah In the pandemic a lot of people coming online I guess for a bit of solace or comfort or it's not just me all that type of stuff so tell us, you know your Own, I know you've got your own journey also and I know you talked to a lot of people online What are the kind of not so nice things about education that you see and hear a lot? Mate I could go on I could go on for about an hour on that. I mean, there's still huge issues with Fault with with a ton of reoccurring things that keep coming up the ones that you know are the most popular topics. I Think a lot of it comes down to people being treated unfairly people being treated as not human People being treated as robots or machines And I think that that seems to come up a lot and is reflected in The decisions that are made regarding different individuals or people within schools And is it exclusive to maybe challenging schools or is there any type of schools? No, no, it's any I mean, you know, like yourself is any type of school The so-called outstanding schools can be the most toxic schools in the world because the pressure for the teachers to Produce and to keep going at the same rate as as you know The next person it can be intense. So it can it can be it doesn't matter It's it's purely about the culture and the environment in the school that the leadership what led to the way No schools perfect though No, well, that's someone might someone might sit there and say I work in a toxic school. I made like a I don't know if you saw it. I've like Like circle thing Because I thought you know what the reason I made that is some people say I work in toxic school Do you what what happened? Dada, right? Well, that's one incident. That's one incident that impacted you but what's the bigger picture What's happening in the school? Who else is it affecting? So I think that's important to distinguish and even even Poor experiences on doesn't necessarily make it a toxic school, you know So I guess it's uh helping, you know, I guess what the the graphic is you've got maybe we'll stick on the podcast is there Signpost and that kind of cultural stuff, you know, not just maybe a one-off bullying episode, but things that are a bit more institutional Yeah, exactly that group think behavior Maybe I'll behave this way because the head teacher expects me to do xyz even though I don't really believe in that decision or definitely A way of working. There is a cult. There is a cult like thing with it. Isn't there this is a bit of a cult like You know, well, there are people in the system, you know in any industry not just teaching But there are people that quite enjoy going off and telling someone off and calling them out for whatever reason um What advice would you have for maybe a teacher who thinks they might be In uh, you know the senior graphic. I think that's definitely me. I guess Two key questions. What are your tips for them to survive and a tip for maybe moving on and kind of getting to another job? um I mean really the key thing for me would be move if you can and and trust your gut So if if someone sat there for two weeks every single day going I am literally dreading going into this place tomorrow Then don't waste any more time If you can get out now, I think that and I I talked about this in one of my online courses on teacher well-being and One of the bits in there is about what to do if you're within the situation and you can't leave or can't get out So how do you challenge toxicity from within which is a more complex thing which might involve taking notes and making sure that you're recording every Conversation or every event that happens handwritten noteifying with the dates and the conversation Maybe some quotes in there as well and then being able to take that after a month after 30 days to the leader of the school or whoever the Person you feel most comfortable going to is with a trusted colleague or a union rep maybe but you know It could be just a trusted colleague and go in there and challenge in it challenging it and saying listen This has to stop and this is why here's here's my evidence and then obviously if they don't take that seriously and if they don't want to um Do that there are professional organizations that can help and you know, I'm not I'm not being funny but you'll have seen that you know that I have seen reports of employment tribunals in the last few years where people have left an organization They've taken them to court or they've gone down that avenue and they've received a huge payout for damages caused by I I think we've become institutionally in teaching used to certain behaviors and certain practices that in the outside world Maybe in a legal even in a legal sense They would look at less kindly than than we have normalized it to be within within the profession give us an example so maybe expecting to you know Write some reports It's just a done thing that you're going to write two or three hundred reports in a secondary school a year But not necessarily be given time to do so so it's assuming that you'll do those after school hours Have you got another example perhaps? um, I mean, yeah, I think um being treated Uh differently to everyone else um by the way you spoken to or by the way Maybe timetabling or You know, uh, it would have to be a combination of different things Wouldn't it but being taught feeling like someone's being targeted not feeling like but being targeted because it does happen um, I think that and obviously being being funneled out of of a job or being Put under unnecessary pressure for no reason. It could be a whole number of things. It could be You know being asked to do x y zed it It could be a whole number of things really um, and you mentioned it's You know institutionalized I suppose or it's become part of our DNA in in some respects I guess, you know, when I thought when I think back about my leadership and perhaps your own You very rarely get trained in full that job Where you're in charge of other people and there's lots of mistakes you'll make along the way until you refine your own Rhythm your own style of doing things that you're learned behaviors from other people I guess my question is um If if you thought that potential school leaders could receive some kind of formal training or qualification to become a leader Who would do it? What would it be? What would what you know, what kind of things in this regard would it contain? um To help kind of maybe break that chain I mean that's that's the key points, isn't it? I mean I took on a tlr Like a year or two in which is actually pretty late nowadays for what people seem to be doing It's like a month in do you want to be ahead of the department? You know And it's like I I felt at that time out of my depth, you know I was thrust into a team of 16 people 17 people because it was the skills curriculum for year seven that I was managing I might have to run meetings with people who were like 20 30 years my senior Uh, some of them didn't want to teach what I was now leading Uh, and it and I had to learn on the job with that And you know you make massive mistakes like and that should and then that makes you feel rubbish But actually yeah, if you'd have had the proper training You you'd have avoided those situations or It's a deficit model, isn't it really? It's not um, I guess You know that that keeps repeating itself and then uh, we lose good people or suppose or we leave with a bit of frustration That we can't do a job very well Do you know what's funny though? We need we need more classroom teachers than we need leaders now That's that's what we need. So why why are we promoting people so fast through this system? I know people want to move up. But yeah, we need alternative Yeah, some schools may be desperate to obviously fill a role in the responsibility Um, all right, let's switch topics. Let's come to off-stead now. So, uh, give us your latest beef, I suppose on our inspection what what's dog Um, I mean, I mean, I think that I think the fact they did away with The whole emphasis on data was was a Was a good thing. However We're still in the same situation where we've got a two-day inspection based on What curriculum maps like conversations about the curriculum? Anyone can right? I'm not being funny. But if you've got the gift of the gab and if you are um, if you are great at making lovely graphics and if you're great at using all the buzzwords like You know all the classic but I could write like 20 now from cognitive science that I could list out to you If you're good at all those things then I'm not being funny about surely gives you a better chance in inspection Is it right that that gives you a better chance? Absolutely not. It should be it and actually We could list a million different flaws about it the contextual issues about it I know that mary bolster mentioned this in a book about how you know, we're still in the situation even now Where the more leafy school You're working the better chance you've got of getting a good off-stead grade. It's still happening So people you know, I know you've said this for years and and many people have said this video is still happening It hasn't changed So why is that because I thought the whole curriculum drive was going to change that and suddenly, you know, we were going to start seeing um, you know outstanding judgments for schools that Who's I guess you take away if you would take away the data conversation if My pupils in my leafy school are of a certain demographic. They're potentially yes also of a certain cultural capital Yes, my current issue is If I as an inspector quiz the pupils they're working memory and all that Shebang the curriculum intention on paper is or isn't clear because the pupils can recall in that high-state scenario And if I've got a high or a low cognitive load and depend on what inspector asks, I guess Determines what's written on that report and what the inspector thinks about the curriculum Outcomes I suppose that so that intent implementation impact part There's all there's there's there's lots of ways to manipulate cohorts And to present cohorts in certain ways Um, let's let's just switch back to the leadership conversation then so we've got a lot of potential toxic stuff going on I believe to be a often inspector of the work in a certain type of school Um, is there a what you've used on scope for often allowing school leaders who work in maybe r.r Inadequate schools to become inspectors. Would that be uh, well, I don't trust something I'm the wrong I'm the wrong person to ask because I don't trust the gradings So I couldn't care less if somebody I couldn't care less if someone works in an adequate or outstanding school I'm the wrong person to out when I see celebrations with balloons and stickers and everything about austere Grades it drives me nuts. So I'm the wrong person to ask because I You know, you can have you can have the best leader in the world Working in an inadequate school. They have one dodgy inspection and suddenly that they're there for five years working in a so-called rubbish school So, um, you know, yeah, you and I have been here many times before so I guess for listeners, you know Tom and I are quite big advocates for you know, challenging the reliability of austere grades I suppose um So if I put you in a corner, is that the one thing you'd like to see fixed or is it something else? I think it would be a massive if we could strip out the austere grades. I think it would be a huge step forward Absolutely huge. That's why I think it would transform Um Transform so much. I think it would it would let overnight and you know why it costs no money Yeah, I know it would have a big impact. Right. Let's do one one more controversial topic and then I'll Go gentle and get your heart rate back slow Right. Let's swap for edgy twitter. Give us some highs and lows of your edgy twitter life to date Uh, I mean the highs is just the net worth that you can gain from it the people who you meet I wouldn't know you without twitter. Um, just to pick the The huge opportunities for anyone on there. I mean if you Have an idea or if you have some thoughts or if you have More than if you're creative if you're your creative person and what an amazing outlook for that. Um, you know And I think the high would be that is the connections the networks the opportunities The low is obviously that you know, and you I know you've experienced this is when people do stuff Whatever it is. I saw a tweet actually yesterday two days ago from someone saying something like Oh teacher zoo Oh, I can see this person's come up with this and it's it's pathetic or whatever and you know blah blah blah And all it was is an idea take it or leave it if someone does something you don't like it You don't have to buy it. You don't have to engage. You don't have to I think one of the low points for me is just hating on of is the hating on other people other people's ideas other people's success uh Yes, that's a tough one. I mean, I know, you know in the earlier days of twitter, I suppose, um Can ruin your weekend for sure? Um I guess you've got to start feel you get hard and you do get hard into it though I mean me now I'm just hard to I was chatting to someone a couple of months back and She was upset about something that had happened on twitter and um Yeah, she was really upset and um And she said to me how How'd you do that? I said that what you just showed me has been said to you that to me is like one out of like 10 comments That might happen over a week or whatever or a month, you know And if I had and I probably would have when I first started I would have had that same reaction probably as this person had So I guess that you get you grow on to I don't know if that's right or wrong or a good thing Or a bad thing that was the question was that is it right or wrong? And you know the the status of the profession how people use social media, you know the I mean to be fair You know anyone can come across bad on twitter because of the tone of Of it, you know, you you write in text in limited in number of characters. So anyone could come across I think the difference for me is where Factually someone goes or says something that is just just terrible, you know, that's that's the difference for me Anyone can be misunderstood anyone can, you know, write in a tone that some people don't like, you know, that's not I mean that's that's Any, you know the same the people write letters to each other Sure. So, um, obviously you were how long you've been on to to now a good 10 years getting close No No 20 20 End of 2015 Right. Okay. So you're seven years not bad it not bad in ins um Yeah, so, um The the wonderful world of twitter, right? Let's switch to uh, no, you're a history teacher. You haven't talked about history Tell us why history and you know what you're into particularly and uh, you've got a history of Not a history you've got a network of history teachers also that history icon stuff that you do Yeah, uh, three questions. Uh, why history tell us what you're up to in particular Topics of history on your teaching and then tell us about tm history icons. I think it's cool. That's right. Um, Yeah, no, I still love teaching history. I still I still really enjoy it. Um, I mean anything anything Uh, kind of 20th century is my bag. Um, I'm not a massive fan of like the stone age um, so all all the kind of curriculum Redesigns of like, oh, let's bring in something about like how rocks were created. I that doesn't inspire me but equally You know, I think obviously I'm interested in history. I'm interested in all history and I enjoy teaching it all but yeah anything 20th century is my kind of bag and then uh, yeah tm history icons Is a grassroots teach me network Obviously, we've got other subjects as well on teach me icons if you just search for it You got we've got 10 subjects on there now So is that uh, it's a teach me on a particular subject matter, isn't it? That's right. It suggests specific teach meets Essentially and they're free for teachers to attend And you do them all over the country or just in the north west? So at the moment the face-to-face events are in manchester Uh, if you go on the website, you can see we've got some up come in the next one's in september It's the english one, which will be a big one. Uh, so you're um, you're quite a busy man to be fair Hahaha Yeah, well Yeah, basically, yeah, um, I mean I finished my last teaching contract last week So, um, up until I was I was doing a teaching contract Up until last week and then what's next for you then next year or so? I don't know I I mean, I'm in a great position where I'm gonna take I I wouldn't take on a permanent full-time contract now at the moment Because of my other commitments. So, um, yes, I'm open if anyone needs, uh A history teacher for a few weeks in the north west from september then give me a shout Right, there you go. Right. Um, so we're well past my 20 minute barrier, which is good go We've got lost in our conversation. But at the end of my show, I like to just Ping loads of if you're old enough tom to remember timmy mallet, you know, don't pause or hesitate Um, I'm gonna ping things your way and see how you get on so we'll start easy Um, so what what you're working on today before we spoke? Uh, edged a teacher's tour radio Okay, uh, what book are you reading for fun? Uh, non. Don't read for fun only read nonfiction. Right. What are you reading? Uh, nothing. I'm reading the screen right now. Um, that says riverside and has your face on it teacher talking Um, if I was education secretary of state, I would finish the sentence Um Make a teacher the education secretary so resign myself and give it to someone else And what would be your dream job? So if you if you weren't a history teacher or wasn't a data or I'll be honest with you I've got I've got the dream job, which is a combo of history teacher slash all the other stuff that creates Right you're living the dream. Okay. Yeah, it's career achievement to date Oh goodness me. Um Probably probably continuing to be a teacher in year 14 year 15. Okay, that's pretty good If we went to Valencia together for 24 hours, what would we do? What would we see? Oh, amazing. Tapas Australia, Galicia Uh, Spanish people. Yeah, that'd be amazing Be be be Britain every time. Yeah, carry on Uh, right, uh, who would you recommend I interview next and why? You know lots of people. Yeah, I'm just trying to think of think of someone who I find Interesting Oh god, um Do you know what? I can't pick one person. I there's so many I could pick I might come back to that right if I was if, um Back to edgy date. Have you have you managed to secure a successful date yourself? I I have a girlfriend. So I've been with her now for Um, did you meet on edgy date? No. No, she's not a teacher. She works in HR Right. Okay. Well, I was trying to get your ringing and dorsal there for it. Okay This might be a controversial one for you, but what's your favorite radio show? on your teacher's radio I was I thought I wish you'd asked what's my favorite radio station because it's teacher's talk radio Is my favorite teacher you like listening to or is that putting you in a corner? I'll be honest. There's a hell of I I enjoy them all for different reasons and that's a genuine answer Good answer. Good answer. Uh, right, uh, let me finish with a big one then so You know in many years time, what would you hope to be your legacy? I suppose as an educator doing all these different things I I don't really I I don't really think about my My leg I haven't really thought about that if I'm honest with you I just want to enjoy what I'm doing carry on working hard Carry on trying to make a difference in whatever way I think is the best or I enjoy doing the most or whatever And then see see where that leads Yeah, I mean you've got your Twitter you're on 51 plus A thousand followers. You've got a little army of people that are interested in what you're doing and what you're saying So that's um, that's a little bit of an impact there Um, and I'm sure you're on your other channel Yeah, I mean, obviously, we know Twitter can be a little bit fickle, but you you're doing You know the radio shows a great success the the dating stuff I saw you got it picked up in the in the press when it came out So you're definitely moving mountains and I guess, you know, those side hustles give you a bit of autonomy and allow you to um Stay away, I suppose from that toxic stuff, which I know has scarred you once or twice Uh, and you're still dabbling with it. Oh, I guess I guess it would it be fair to conclude that you're uh a Looking for love in terms of the right school Um Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I was fair to say although, you know, I'll see how everything developed I just don't know what's going to happen the next year or two anything. I might put the podcast and looking for love in history as a podcast title Right, Tom. It's been great to catch up with you. Thank you for all your time. Have a well, I might see you saturday, you never know Um, and um, uh, have a good summer. If not, uh, thanks for your time. Cheers. Cheers, mate. All right. See you later Cheers Tom