 I believe that if we really want to change the world in the way that we say that we do then we need to stop making it so elitist and we need to change the language that is being used around the table. Ada Paris is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Ada is a futurist, systems thinker, storyteller, and artist, chair of Mental Health First Aid England in the United Kingdom. Currently she's an artist and two residents at the Design Science Studio, Buckminster Fully, so Bucky, and the Emergent Media Lab, the University of California in Irvine, an enthusiastic curator of people, patterns, and stories. Her current interest lies in the anatomy of the transformation and innovation, forms of ancient wisdom, natural systems, and indigenous community practices to digital and emerging technologies. In 2020 she was long listed as one of the most influential women in the United Kingdom technology space. In 2019 she was recognized as one of the TED Talks Global Emerging Innovators, and in 2018 she was recognized as of the UK's top 100 Black and Minority Ethnic BAME leaders in technology. She takes a little loss of the anthropological approach to technology, merging logic, creativity to design, immerse storytelling, learning, and developmental environments, cultures in which her clients and audiences become critical thinkers, philosophers, and immersive storytellers, problem solvers, and innovators. With over 20 years of experience in transforming cultures to nurture decentralized human-centered innovations and environments. Thank you so much for being here, Ada. It's a wonderful pleasure, just for my guests and my listeners. We know each other for a couple years now through KinnerNet, through MLOV, through HERO, through DLD, and many many different organizations and seen each other at HFARM and and party together and had some good times, but also attended some serious talks and discussions as well. Thanks so much for making it. Thank you for having me. Yes, we have some beautiful humans in common and we've shared some great thought expanding and mind and bodies, expanding events, the parties, and all of that together. It's been, I love when those worlds start to merge. Yeah, you have a long list of wonderful clients you've worked for over the years, Google, Unilever, Sandsbury, Ogilvy Labs, British Council, on and on. I could just go, I think we've even been at the camp together and different places have crossed in the Arab net in Dubai and things like that, but you've just been all over, got clients all over. You're doing wonderful and amazing things. You've been at this, I would say for a while and you've had some experiences. We've just experienced and we're still currently experiencing the most crazy times ever. And at least since the Spanish flew and we're kind of in an uproar and also in a funk about what's happening to us all. I want to know one, how have you weathered it so far? How are you doing? And with all this experience and in the past of what you're working on and what you're doing, has it helped you at all to deal with some of the craziness? Yes, wow. We definitely have been and are still going through a species-wide moment happening. And I think that it's been overlaid by so many different things. So yes, we've got the pandemic and or another pandemic. This COVID-19 is not the first and I don't imagine it would be the last. So I think in our reality, in our time, we have to recognize that that is a thing as well. So we've got the pandemic. And for me, what has been really interesting as to live through it. I suppose most of it feels very meta because we're living through it as we're learning, as we're experiencing, as we're trying to co-design. And so there's the pandemic came in and that was a massive shift. And for most of us, I think that it made us get to this point of asking existential questions. And I'm in the UK. I am immunocompromised. So it meant that I had to shield and I remember the day that I got, I think it was actually last week, Monday, I think it was a couple of weeks ago is when I got a year anniversary to receiving a phone call from my GP, my doctor telling me, no, you need to go back home, you need to shield and you need to shield for 12 weeks. And so I've been here, you know, at home on my own shielding through that. So we had that moment of stopping and looking at everything, realizing that actually I now need to face up to the fact that I do have an immunocompromised system that, you know, live in my life the way that I was before. It was great. A few friends know what it is, I haven't been at burst in the car accident. And I've always been really careful about that. But then you start to get to this point of you have to tell people, you have to tell people about your vulnerability and all of that. And so recognizing that as a starting point of, okay, whatever this is going to be, we're all going to be vulnerable at some point. And we can't run away from that and actually maybe to lean in and create some of those safety networks around us to support us through that was one. So then going through all of that, you know, the pandemic, the first lockdown, we then had Brianna Taylor, George Floyd, you know, all of those things come in, but I really feel that they came in at a time when we had all had those moments of, what's it all about? What's the impact I want to have? So this, we'd stopped distracting ourselves with all of these things. This space occurred. We're still going all the things I built my identity on the American dream or this is my moonshot. This is what I'm aiming for. We've suddenly realized that all the isms and structures aren't what they were, what we thought they were. They were myths. You know, this idea of the hero's journey that is one person, one hero, one journey, that's one adventure that's going to save us. Most of us now realize that that's not going to happen. And so there needed to be a change and needed to be a different framework. And so when Black Lives Matter and all of this came into that space, I think that that's why we had, we saw this global uprising because everybody's in the state of what am I doing and what's happening? For me, I, in the beginning, I mean, I've been working on this, my big projects for years. So cyborg shamanism is something that I've been working on for years. But when the pandemic hit and we all had to go into lockdown, I, and I had to shield. So the double whammy, I decided to look at this as I went, what I'm going to do is rather than focusing on its 12 weeks, I'm just going to make sure that I get through each week, week by week. And that's what my focus became. And it was then I decided to look at this as a period of metamorphosis rather than restraint. And I did the usual things, I'm going to learn a new language and blah, blah, but actually, none of that. It was what are the, what are the things I know that help me be resilient? And how can I start to build, tap into some of those things to help me through this process, but on a week by week basis? I love that. And, and I want to even go deeper in it because we need some of those tools and many of us have been dealing with, with those things. And you also had some, some tragedies, courage for that. And maybe if you don't mind sharing, just give us some of those tools that you had some of the, some of your learnings and take us on that journey. There's obviously the, you know, the ego myth, there's the ism and things that are tied into that. But there's also some very personal things, learning lessons and, and things that occurred we'd love to hear. Thank you. Yeah, it's been, so cyborg, charm ism isms, all of that. And we may touch on that later or people can see it on my website. But that was always, it began as part of my life. So a different way of storytelling, a different way of kind of looking at how we interact and how we create this, these cultures and societies that we live in. But going back to your first part, the first part of your question, what are some of the tools that I've used? So I am a big fan of Vipassana's meditation. So that 10, 10 days sign of retreat, where you go into yourself. And, you know, for me, meditation and mindfulness is really about observing yourself. It's not trying to get my head quiet. It's not trying to stop all the noise. Because I think most of us know that the minute you try and not think of something, something will pop into your head. And you end up in this spiral. So Vipassana is, you know, the way that I do it is that I look at it as it's about observing myself and recognizing that all the sensations I have in my body and my mind are just that they are sensations. And we as humans attach an emotional relationship to each of them. So we say, this is really good. I love this. I want more of this. And this is really bad. I don't want this. And I hate this or I'm trying to avoid it. It doesn't, you know, doing that. It doesn't really exist when we fully, we fully well know that it's there. And so Vipassana is the part of it is about bringing yourself into balance and recognizing that they are all sensations. They are all valid, that we can get as much learning from the positive, what we deem to be positive as we deem to be negative. And so that is what I've, I've taken that to be a lifestyle rather than just a meditative process. It doesn't mean I don't get happy. You know, it's all, you know, I still have all of those emotions. It's just that, especially when times are, we are constrained that I really look to that. So it's been a process that in the beginning that was a process of, okay, I'm here. I'm on my own. It's going to be a long haul. What can I do? I mean, and it was as basic as that. What can I do? What are the things that really nurture me? What are the things that bring me back into balance? Yes, different types of meditation. So I don't do the same. I generally don't do the same type of meditation every day. I look, I really wake up in the morning and feel into myself and I say, and it's become such a subconscious part of who I am that when I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is I'm going to be present for myself today. You know, regardless of what else is going on, I have to make sure that I am present for myself. It's interesting because since working with being part of the Buckminster Fuller Institute, what I do now is I wake up early, I wake up early anyhow, but I listen to my soundscapes around me and I try and pick out individual sounds. So, oh, I can hear a train passing or I can hear an ambulance in the background or I can hear some pigeons or seagulls down at the Thames. And so that's my process of waking up every morning and immersing myself and it just, I find that it really grounds me. And that whole idea has really been quite, that as a tool has been really useful and you mentioned tragedy. So the, you know, the first couple of lockdowns, it's been a year now, the first couple of lockdowns, I've had friends who have lost really dear people to them because of COVID and various things. And I think that with everything stripped away, it just seemed more intense. But at the end of last year, the end of last year, we had some tragedy in a family, you know, my father died and we had within, I think it was within the space of about six weeks, we had bi-relatives died, none of them from COVID. And it's interesting because my take was, you know, no matter the words that people use, it's not going to take away the pain or the, you know, words. We focus on words so much as a means of communication and there are so many other means of communicating. And so I deliberately was like, okay, what's my best, when I'm stuck, what's the best way of me communicating through music, through sound? I have a very visual relationship with music. And so I threw myself and I put all of that grief and this, you know, already there was so many emotions. I used to say to a friend, I'm feeling all of the emotions at the same time. And it's very difficult to distinguish between them because you're just, it's a complete onslaught and then you still have to work. And so what I did is I was working already working on a project, our project. But part of that was I decided to do a soundscape and just use my ability to just shut my eyes and really immerse myself in the sounds and use that as a narrative. So that's what it became. And I think that that as a tool, that's a great tool for people to really go back to the thing that really helps you express yourself. And sometimes without words, is it movement? Is it creating something? Is it cooking, whatever it is? But see that as a form of meditation? Well, I definitely like how you, you know, you, you give us that tool of how music can help and that I don't, I want to kind of ask you similar. It's rough to lose anyone normally during any time, but in a pandemic, obviously, when you're in lockdown, you're in social distancing and you're kind of need to worry about your own health as well as and things. And also the other person who may be sick or whatever that you don't want to get in contact and make them sick either is rough enough as it is. But one thing that kind of, I've always had a, had a not a difficult time dealing with, but it's almost kind of pissed me off. I hate this, just to be honest with is that when someone passes away, a loved one or even a close loved one passes away, that the world keeps going. And you kind of alluded to that the world keeps turning. They're, you know, they're still work. They're still jobs. The world keeps moving. People are still dying, living and living out their lives. And you don't even almost fully get that time to kind of either do a reset or kind of come to grips with that. And that's really frustrating and during a lockdown and the distancing time, boy, just, you know what, it was interesting because I had been so I'm launching a new business with my co-founder Marcus Anderson. And so we've been working really hard. So the beginning of the lockdown lost a lot of work. And then just things started to pick up because I think the world became ready for some of the conversations that we were having. People were less risk averse. And so, yes, the realization that the world doesn't stop for you. It still keeps moving. And you still need to play some kind of active role in the world. And that's tough. But I think the biggest thing I learned through this period and still learning is that there's no one way to do this. And there's no one way to grieve or be sad and to be fair. We are all grieving. This pandemic is a mass, you know, it's a species wide process of grief. And I have got to the stage of with my own personal and this big thing of realizing that grief is something that's with us every day. We just have to recognize that it's it sits there under the surface. And we adapt and we change and we learn different techniques. Because in the beginning, when everything when my dad died and everything, it was this big bubbling up to the surface. And then we had so many different relatives and none of them COVID related. Just, you know, my friend, my friends were saying, but how do you feel? I went right now, all I know is that it's grief. I can't distinguish anymore because there's all of that. But you get to a point where sometimes it becomes a little bit lighter. And the triggers become less intense. And you recognize that there are little things that we can do sometimes that really help us to, you know, I think one of the biggest things that I've learned. And it's really helped me is being vulnerable. And I think people have this. So I present as an extrovert, I'm actually introverted, very introverted. And people have this external impression of me being this strong woman and blah, blah, blah, which is great. Yes, you know, in some ways. But also, there is that I suppose internal, we mix it up with the imposter syndrome and into needs for validation. Sometimes that we have this kind of conflict internally going, Oh, but I'm not good enough. But I want you to see me at the same time. And I want you to acknowledge all the stuff I'm doing. And all of that kind of fell away, in many ways, because I just got to this point, okay, I can't cope and being honest and saying, I don't have capacity for that emotionally or mentally or physically, I don't have that anymore. And I feel that not just the pandemic, but you know, the bereavement in my family, the shifting of how I show up in the world, this understanding of metamorphosis, I feel like my DNA has been changed. My approach to the world. And, but also, and I think this links to your work is becoming understood really understanding and embodying systems thinking. You know, it's not something out there. It is what happens in our body. It's the way that, you know, the sound that comes out of my mouth right now is the result of systems, you know, a living system that everything is happening. And so having the space to really look for the interconnections and interconnections of everything about ourselves, our identities, and then we then expand that out to our communities and, you know, local communities, because during the pandemic, the rise that there was a resurgence of hyper local communities. So you've got that and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Realizing the interconnectedness of all of that has also been quite grounding for me anyhow. Well, I totally agree. And I mean, there's so many things that we could even unpack more. I mean, you're really talk about how you've embraced that vulnerability from Brent Brown was kind of one of the first to come real open and say, you know, that vulnerability is an important part to empower yourself to find strength, to have another tool to go out of the world. And so I appreciate you sharing that. And I see some some models there that that we can apply to get us through because we're not done. We're going to face some other problems. We have some other existential things coming our way that we have to work on. Now, I really need to know this because it ties with so many factors of what you do and what I do. And are you a global citizen? Do you consider yourself to be a global citizen? And how would you feel about a world without borders, nations, divisions from one human being from another and in conjunction to what we've just experienced, what we're currently still experiencing and this going forward as an introvert as somebody who's trying to put the vulnerability out there move forward. How do you feel about that? Is that a tool? Is that a direction we need to go? Yeah, I consider myself to be a global citizen. You know, and we can really get it, we could really get into the idea of borders and nationalism and all of that. To me, a lot of those borders is another form of colonization and colonialism. And then that's at the most basic level, that's why I feel that I'm a global citizen. Because, you know, we talk about, all you need to do is look at a map and anywhere, especially anywhere that you see that has any country borders that's a straight line, it was drawn by a ruler. Somebody made that up. And so for me, then I've always been, even as a child, I've been like, well, why? And who gave them the authority to do that? And how did that happen? And what does that mean for how I relate to the world? Well, this is where for me, ego starts to come into it. Because we are looking at a particular thing, a particular border and saying, well, this is my piece. And it's better than those pieces over there. But this is a planet. And we are humans, we are inhabitants of this planet. The planet is not here for us. It was here before us. And I'm sure hopefully we don't do, you know, destruction and, you know, kill ourselves off. But it could well be here after us. So for us to try and divide it up and say that this is mine and this is yours, I feel that that is completely wrong. And the more I get into systems thinking, the more, almost in some ways, abhorrent, I find it, that we do divide these things up. And that could be quite a, you know, contrast. But then, so then people say, well, how do we then have borders? And I don't have the answer to that. But I do feel that we need to, we need something different. And I think that the more I'm discovering about systems thinking and natural capital and all of these languages and going back to bio memory, and I'm going, but I remember on the Buckminster Fuller course, was that one of the students, one of my co fellow students said, you know, nature creates no waste. And for me, that was so profound. Okay, well, if all of this is here, why are we trying to divide things up and everything? And so then we look at the pandemic, we look at COVID, the virus, the virus, and I've written about it, the virus didn't respect human boundaries or borders. It didn't matter that this is England and this is China and this is America. It didn't matter, that none of those borders matters. It didn't, it didn't, it didn't matter whether you were academic or, you know, what background you had, what ethnicity, what sexual orientation, all of those things did not matter. And in the beginning, when the pandemic first hit, we saw that all a lot of those borders and boundaries that people said could never come down was suddenly, suddenly just a flick of a switch, it felt like a flick of a switch and they were gone. And I'm going, well, see? Yeah, it's crazy. Well, first of all, I mean, during this time, it was really bubbling to the surface, a microscopic look at all the problems in our, in our currently created systems and some very bad systems, but also and the separation of humanity one from another in some respects, because we're all breathing the same air, we're all drinking the same water where there is no throwaway. If we throw it away, one part of the world, it'll come up some other part of the world or even come back to bite us in that same part of the world where we throw it away, depending on how we do that, because there is no throwaway on this earth and and that that virus is smaller than a particle of dust, that's smaller than a grain of hair, but yet it had this exponential path that it grew exponentially and it spread all over the world. What people don't understand is this exponential function or the movement of this exponential virus is something that happens to us every day. Our world is growing exponentially, but it also ties to what you said, systems, it's, it's a system, it's a function, the exponential function is a system of how we do it. And yes, exponential can be good, bad or ugly, but it can also be very beautiful, wonderful, and it can be a solution. And that's kind of where we, I do want to get into, you know, the systems and talking about the future and some of these things, but there is one part in your bio and what you've already touched upon. It's really about this transforming cultures and nurturing humanity and innovative environments. The quickest way for humanity to, to evolve, so to say, is through culture is through an evolutionary culture and exponential cultural transformation. Normal evolution takes, you know, millions of billions of years and as we pass on in different forms, worse to kind of evolve to something better. But cultural evolution can happen much faster. It might still take millions of years, but I think that we've seen some things, especially in the pandemic, that have been pretty, pretty radical, pretty fast and pretty amazing. And so the reason I asked you that question about the global citizens and that is, so now you're, you're shielding because of your own health, you're, you're on lockdown because of the COVID, you're, you know, and now there are certain things that you, you automatically want to get out there and add your voice to and things, even though you're introverted, even though all those things you, you're passionate enough about it, you say, I've got to do some, we've got to speak about that, we've got to fix this. Here's, you know, what is it, what did you do during this time to keep that going, to support others to, to do that? Or did you just take a pause for yourself? In the beginning I took a pause because, you know, it was needed in many ways as devastating as this pandemic has been, and it continues to be, I feel that we needed it. I feel that, you know, I've talked about the, the fact that we needed almost a handbrake stop that just that complete stop. And I think individually, so even myself, that was something that I needed because I was washing ahead, I was on this domino effect, everything was going, but when the first lockdown happened, I lost all of my work, I was due to fly, I had just come back from Dubai, speaking at a conference, I was due to fly, you know, and even that, I'm still very aware of it's all flying. So that has an impact on things as well, but it's just the ability to stop and just go, you know what, I need to allow myself to be bored. Because I've realized that I'm very good at fitting space and keeping myself occupied and keeping myself busy and doing things, I can always find something to do. But that's not allowing me the space or that's not giving myself the gift of time and presence. And so that's why now when I wake up every morning, I do say, and it's a conscious thing, okay, I need to be present for myself. And that's why I do the soundscape because I'm really checking in with how I'm feeling and how I want to show up for myself. And then get into, and when I say being bored, it just meant I'm not going to sit there and I mean, generally, I've got colored post-it notes and pens all over the place and I'm watching something on TV and I'm, my, this is how other people discovered I was, or I discovered that I was a system thinker. Most of my notes are mind maps. I just thought that that's the way that everybody does it. But being able to just stop and go, I'm just going to watch this. So I'm just going to enjoy this for the sake of enjoying it. I'm going to lose myself in this moment and not try and multitask because none of, we all try, but nobody really can do it. And just go, I'm just going to, was it some, oh, who was it? I was having a great conversation with friend, contact, Gino, you, and we were talking about projects and ideas and we're both, he and I, much like you and I, our lives intertwine and what have you. And we ended up having this conversation and I can't remember how we got to it, but he said to me, why don't you just take some time and listen to the whole album of it, the whole Pink Floyd album, Dark Side of the Moon. Don't do anything else and just listen from one, from the start to the finish of the album. So I did that, sat here in my flat with my headphones on and just nothing else and just let go. And that was the beauty of really being present and being mindful and just going, I don't need everything else. And I think that that is our approach. That is what has helped me with my approach to the projects I'm doing, to everything else. And I was just going, I'm not, I'm cheating myself if I think that I can do all these different things at the same time. I sometimes we just need to stop and it reminds me, I mean, I love quotes, but it reminds me of one of my, one of the quotes that I use quite a lot is apparently by Debussy, who knows, not here to dispute it, but it is that music is the silence between the notes. And for me, we understand that through music. We understand that we need to have those silences, otherwise it's just noise. And so for myself it was going, okay, so now what I'm doing is this is my silence. This is the silence between the notes. Everything else is the outside. I'm going to run around and be busy, but I'm going to appreciate that time that I'm giving myself to tell. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I also know Gino, I'm trying to get him on the podcast, so hopefully that'll occur. We'll do a pincer move on him. Yeah, we'll do a pincer move on him. Last time I saw him was in World Economic Form in Davos, and before that in DLD, we were speaking together. He's a great guy. You've kind of already taken us on a journey of how you've been so far, how things are emerging, but you were really, as he said, busy before. You were working on all these different things, and I was pretty excited as I was. I was probably the entire world was running around like crazy, and we're like, what were we doing that for? What's all this craziness now, and you take this step back and say, did I really need to do that? Was that really that important? And it is kind of almost a reset that we've had as the World Economic Form. We put it to where's our time, our talent, our skills, our vulnerability, most a benefit to humanity to getting us to that sustainable future where we want to go to. And as you know, a big on sustainability, sustainable developmental advocate, environment, and environmental social governance. And you are as well in many respects on how you present and what you do, much more creative than I am and much more beautiful way that you come upon the stage, upon the scene with it. But I want to know there's this transformation of culture that you've kind of a journey you've been on, but you're also trying to take others along with you. And you always tie art and creativity and music somehow into it. Can you tell us more about these projects that you're working on? What's emerging and kind of get us into understanding that more? Yeah. So a few years ago, I was working for a tech startup type company. And eventually they gave me the title of futurist. And I was like, okay, fair enough. And what I was doing was really, I was looking trying to understand technology and how technology would impact the communications industry. And so I used to put on these events. But at the same time, I had been to Burning Man. And you know, I've been all these different things. As a child, I wanted to be an astronaut because I fell in love with Mr. Spock and wanted to go and explore those worlds and did art and all of these different things. But as a youngster, and this was my own doing, you know, it was all societies felt that I had to keep everything separate. You can't mix these two things because they don't go. So then but also understanding, you know, my heritage, my father's Nigerian Evo, my mother is Guyanese, Amerindian, Indian, African. And I was born in the UK. So this beautiful kind of mix of all of these different worlds. And then I was putting on an event on transhumanism and a guy had an implant. And we had this conversation about what is technology? And for me, when we talk about tech, people tend to think about it's a mobile phone, it's something digital. But to me, with my, you know, my insights and kind of not research and understanding, technology is just a tool. It's not the solution. It's a tool that we can use to help us gain some sense of enlightenment. And when you realize that that we're using these things to help us understand our relationship with ourselves, with others, and with our environment, then whether you use algorithmic hardware, or you use plant medicine, we're trying to achieve the same thing. And so I had this kind of Eureka moment of going, Oh, wait, the cyborgs are using technology to do one thing, and it's hardware. And the shaman are using plant medicine technologies, as far as I'm concerned, to do the same thing. So that's where my big idea of cyborg shamanism was born. And initially, I thought that it was a spectrum, it was either end of the spectrum. But the more I started to really explore it, I realized, and a friend actually reminded me of Oh, gosh, is it the seven circles of hell, you don't taste inferno in Paradiso, and, you know, this constant spiral. And so what I did was I deliberately started to look at what some of the other worlds that I really inhabit. So quantum mechanics and quantum physics and spirituality and realize that the pattern is the same. The intention is the same. And that what we have been doing what we have been doing is trying to create this gap between it and us. There's this technology will save us. This is going to be the answer. We're going to get to the singularity, lots of views on that. But the singularity versus us as humans, giving our responsibility to these other things. It's a like, it's a bit like when people say, you know, when they go down that shamanic spirituality route, taking the plant is plant medicine. It's going to it's that's the journey. That's turning the tap to me it's turning the tap on. The work is everything else that comes after that. And so created this idea called cyborg shamanism. And what I did was deliberately use the word cyborg as a provocation to get us to think about what does it mean and could it mean to be human? And what could we be capable of? And shamanism is about actively seeking other ways of knowing. And so it became this beautiful idea of, I want to bring those worlds together, because there is no hierarchy. So that was the first I did. And I spent about, it took about six or seven years to get to that point. And then we had the pandemic. And that was what I've been talking about traveling around the world to Dubai. I spoke at Arabnet and various conferences. And the last one in Dubai was talking about how we can learn from our past, the ancestral indigenous knowledge and use those that knowledge in a non extractive way to help us design the futures. And so I've been on this journey and then we had the pandemic, I say had the pandemic hit. And that moment of stillness where I spoke about and being bored. And I was just observing. I'm a people watcher. So I was observing the world and recognizing patterns. And I realized that there was a new one emerging, especially around storytelling. And I called it the ecological triptych. Because I went the link between colonialism, capitalism and climate change is the ego. You know, because we will say that we are sustainable and we're recycling and all of this stuff. And yet we'll still fly to Bali to go and do yoga because we can. And when it's the ego that is the thing that is driving all of this. And if we can tackle that ego bit and change the narrative, change, have a new language, new hierarchy of needs, new means of communicating sound being one of them with my soundscape, then I think that we have a different approach to tackling those other three. And so that has been what occurred during the pandemic for me. That's where things really started to take off because as a means of putting it out into into the world. One is artistic expression. Marcus and I, we have four pillars, artistic expression. So the soundscape, the whole projects we're doing now, which is called the myth of the ego. Emerging technologies. So we're for the soundscape, we're using the idea of a cave, the coggy tribe use a cave as a technology, what technologies can be used, regenerative futures or civic solutions. So we're currently co designing a five day immersive co lab in Montana with the common ground project. And then the last is rethinking policy. So how can we have those big conversations? So we've put the soundscape out into the world. We were approached by somebody in the penitentiary system, hierarchy, hierarchy, penitentiary system in the US, who wants to understand could they use our soundscape to help prisoners in isolation, not feel so alone. And so this has been in many ways, the pandemic, that emergency break, the great reset has created the space for the conversations that I want to have and for new frameworks. That's great. So Yaro Crainer from Hatch experiences also in Montana, is that part of common ground as well? Or is that separate? I think it's the same, it's the same ranch. So you got introduced to the common ground project through, I mean, again, there's so many interconnections, right? You know, I know Yaro through KineNet as well. And then some other contacts and friends know Yaro through different things. And there's big, this big convergence of, and this is why I'm so optimistic about the future is that people like us, you know, and some of the people that we know, finally getting that moment of bubbling to the surface and all coming together and taking the ego out. The ones who are coming together are the ones that are taking the ego out. Okay, I'm doing this and you're doing something similar. Let's just come together and work out how we can do this. It doesn't matter what it's called or anything like that because we spend too much time focused on what it's called all of that. This is about doing the work. And now we have a window of opportunity. So let's just make the most of it and all come together and try and just shake things up. That's beautiful. And I mean, but it's also kind of fabulous that it's, you know, you're in the United Kingdom. Now that's in the UK and how it is global. We are global. We're global citizens. The other thing that you touched upon in bringing that out is that it's not only this balance, but it's also what would seem two ends of a spectrum. But it's really not. You mentioned quantum mechanics and it's actually both states on and off at the same time. And I don't want to get too out there and absolutely not academic at all. But it is kind of in that simple, probably oversimplified message that it's actually kind of both at the same time, which in and of itself could be a balance in that you're, you understand both sides, but you're also have that full experience as well. And so I think that that's what I hear out. And maybe I'm, you know, I try not to be too esoteric or out there, but but it is. But I think that what you're talking about is that we are more and more of us are recognizing that there are no binaries in things that things are fluid and ideas and they can coexist. And I think that going back to your question about am I a global citizen, I think that that's also the problem that people focus on binaries. It's this or this and not acknowledging that everything is a symbiotic relationship. It's just whether or not we choose to acknowledge that. So recently, I've been right, starting to think about writing again. And I was having this moment again, okay, so what, because I've always felt uncomfortable with the word futurist, you know, I'm not sure I really need to define what that means for me and have a sense of I can wear it, I can fit, you know, it fits. And so I'd spent some time just mapping out what it meant. So futurism is about being able to reimagine the past, witness the present, so that we can design the future. However, indigenous futurism and there's there's problems in the word indigenous anyhow, it's a colonial word. But indigenous futurism now for me is and I think that this is what I'm really, you know, this is what I want to be known for. You know, if you had that thing of what's the what do you want to be known for acknowledging. So indigenous futurism now to me is acknowledging and valuing acknowledging valuing and embodying the symbiotic relationship between human and non human. So to be able to reimagine the past, witness the present so that we can co design the future. And I think that's my take on what I'm this new, you know, I talked about metamorphosis I was in the cocoon locked in shielding all of that love cocoons cracked open, the wings are about to spread. That's the bit that's the butterfly for me. I love it. You you kind of and I'm going to let you say it because you you have this a little kind of a question. But I want to ask it for you. What's your and I think I'm I think I'm getting it right. What's your ancestral legacy? Yeah. So I asked the question what kind of ancestor do you want to be? Yeah, I want to ask you that same question. So then it would be what I just said the indigenous futurism. So I just read it. And so my what kind of ancestor do I want to be is one who acknowledges acknowledges and values and embodies the symbiotic relationship between human and non human to be able to reimagine the past, witness the present and co design the future. And I've made that slight distinction that it's about co design in the future. And that co design could be with nature. It could be by mimicry. Yeah, that's also part of the symbiotic earth or the symbiosis. Well, I we need to be careful there. So you and I are both. I don't like to get into academic speak or or in German, they call it fuck the grift, you know, these two scientific I want to break it down and make it simple. But these are actually really old terms. But the problem is, is collective intelligence hasn't gotten to the place where we've heard about all of them. So symbiotic earth, where symbiosis comes from really comes from Lynn Margolis, who was Carl Sagan's first wife. She is one of the more she was one of the most fabulous scientists who studied the microbial world. And she actually said, you know, there, there is no neoliberalism, no Leonardo Darwinism, she said that everything in our world works in symbiosis, you know, one, one organism's waste is the energy of another's and we kind of live in a symbiotic dance with each other. And she asked the big question, how did we get from a single cell organism to a nucleated cell? And that's how, you know, we're all that's us, that's plants, that's animals. And, you know, it's really interesting, but it's so important to know about this symbiosis and understand because when you mentioned I mentioned it all the time. So most of my listeners, I'm sure are well versed in that, because I talk about all the time, big, huge Carl Sagan and Lynn Margolis fan in that right. But I believe that it's true we are of this earth, we crawled out of the primordial soup of this earth were made up of billions of microorganisms and those same microorganisms are those basic elements of life, they're found in our earth, they're found in our dirt, they're found in other animals are found in oak trees and plants and and they get their energy and food in a similar way that we do. And so I really, you know, the distinguishment is of this. And this is, I guess, is technical or academic is going to get is that neoliberalism and neo Darwinism thought is basically on the belief that it's natural selection, survival of the fittest, severe competition, only the strong survive. So we're always fighting, we're always struggling, we're always distancing each other one from another or kind of battling resources or dividing up boundaries in some or so. And that's the total opposite of how our world works as the total opposite of what the marvelous and many other scientists since it says more about this, this harmony, this collaboration, this symbiotic dance and the way our world works of cooperation and collaboration. And, and that's really also what what going back to what we're trying to discuss about systems thinking is up until about 2018, our entire world was trying to solve our human problems or human suffering or global grand challenges with linear and siloed thinking. So we're so okay, well, it's a water problem or it's an environmental problem, we just got to fix this one siloed thing, it's a linear linear way we fix it when we realized was never working and never work there's not an example where it has worked permanently and not come back. And so we decided okay back in the 70s there's this systems view of life or systems thinking and dynamic modeling the way our world really works which also ties to when marvelous. And when we apply that type of thinking and understand it's all around us and we deal with it every single day and it's not hard it's not it's not difficult we can do it we have all the machinery and the emerging technologies we've been carrying it around forever. We have the ability to do it that we can solve human suffering we can solve our global grand challenges, but also we can feel much better and have a much better that type of futurism that you're talking about where you want to go. We have all those tools and so I guess how with that journey that you've been on you've you've been so nice to tell us about it. How was that systems thinking have you kind of take I saw you took a note you definitely have something you probably want to tell me but how have you used that and applied that to to kind of besides your your you know what is the legacy you're leaving but how are you applying that and teaching others and empowering others to do that as well. So I wanted to go back to the word academic you know first of all because I believe that if we really want to change the world in the way that we say that we do then we need to stop making it so elitist and we need to change the language that is being used around the table because only focusing on academic work academic language means that only certain people will be invited to the table and I think that we need to break that down because you know it just it it's the right thing to do is the way that I can say it's the right thing to do last November I had the opportunity to facilitate a round series of roundtable discussions for the Council of 90 and that's 19 indigenous leaders from around the world to ask them what would be their manifesto for change and they came up with a manifesto number one on the manifesto is we need a new hierarchy of needs we need a different hierarchy of needs and a different language to be able to start to chain be inclusive because one of the big things as well is that the belief is that the STGs the current way and that's why I love and I'd love to ask you more about that the STGs and the way that they currently presented is still they believe is still quite colonialistic because it's still coming from this perspective of we're saying that this is what's wrong rather than you know cyborg shamanism being this thing of bringing everybody's voice to the table and having this discussion so that we collectively design collectively we say this is what the problem is not the academic saying well we've decided that's what the problem is and this is how we're going to fix it I think that it's that you know going back to something there's so much that you said around part of the problem is also perspective where are we in these things looking at this so I have you know I have all these kind of systems ideas that come up and one of them was really looking at and it's quite a big idea so is the link that the singularity universality and dualism so single point there is one event horizon one point two polar opposites and everything is connected I see them all as the same thing I see them as being interconnected and what it's really about is looking where we stand what's our experience where do we stand and how does that then determine our approach to things so if we look at things and go there's one single point one single focus we're all going to work towards that that's exactly the kind of outcome we're going to get if we stand in we go oh there's two polar opposites and they're fighting against each other and I don't know maybe we go in the middle that's the approach that it's either or that like you talked about that we have this approach that is either or or we have the other approach which is actually everything is interconnected it's systems thinking and they all interconnect and they all shape and actually when you move if we look at this as everything being interconnected and spinning and flowing then yes there will be times when it looks like it's one point it may be times when it looks like it's two polar opposites but just remember the bigger picture that it's everything is interconnected and that that is how I've approached um not just that's how I've approached my life so my work is um the same models that apply to my work the same models that apply to my life and I think that that's where a lot of us kind of come and stuff is going that oh well it works over there but it's not going to work for me so to the point I made earlier with the quote of um music is a silence between the notes we know it works in music we definitely know it so why wouldn't it work in our own lives because we don't want it to because our ego tells us no that's not right because we're too busy there's two something and so what I do my approach is this is how it is this is you know those models those frameworks that occur in nature well nature is the greatest teacher and even I mean even the word nature in itself is a whole different conversation but you know the way the the language of nature actually came about because it was a separation between us and what was there and creating humans on a higher scale but recognizing that all of these frameworks are out there we just need to look and this is why my definition of futureism is look at the past what some of those things that happen be present in the future in the be present in the future be present in be here and witness present the now and then we can co-design the future because we've learned those lessons and this also applies to my own you know our own lives and we've got the opportunity now in this lockdown in this pandemic these various versions of it to start applying some of those models or yeah start applying some of those models to ourselves in fact I think that we're already doing it we just don't recognize it the the transparency of skills yeah absolutely for sure so you you you nailed it so nicely you you've said you beautifully kind of did that but there's a lot of questions you asked me I don't know if we have that much time because I would love to get into them but what what you and almost you know we we both said that we don't want to get into academic speak and distance anyone out but I mean when you talk on singularity or dualism any of those things I mean most people don't have a clue what that is and and I don't want to exclude anybody of because that's more futurist terms that's even even the word exponential most people don't know what the exponential function is or how it works even though we've all experienced the pandemic and how quickly it grew and that's that's also the primary example but that's also why I'm doing the work that I'm doing is to take those big complex ideas or seemingly complex ideas and turn them into experiences or ways that everybody can understand it so cyber shamanism includes understanding of quantum physics and spirituality and you know algorithmic technology but nobody sees that side of it you don't need to understand that side of it what I've done what what I've done with the soundscape and what we're doing with everything that you know Marcus and I and the team are doing is we've turned that into an embodied experience so you don't even need to understand the language you understand what it means as a physical manifestation which is why I that's the type of art and creativity I really enjoy is taking a complex idea and breaking it down into a way that most people would be able to understand it I love that I'm not so important I try to do that as well because it's it's really about not evangelizing or preaching at all it's more about a different form of learning trying to get messages at whatever level people are at to help them get a different view of the world or even a glimpse to see if that's something that they're interested in and and would would agree or go in that direction now this elders that you kind of guided and had this discussion with and and that was that with the Lacell foundation no but I know the cell yeah you know that that's where I do also with that yeah that's where they also do the same same thing as well so there's a lot of cross I work a lot with elders and indigenous as well and and and have some um wonderful people I know a matter of fact one of Hindu Ibrahim was on my podcast she's actually one of the heads of all the indigenous leaders of the worlds to kind of represent them and and and bring their messages at the UN level so she's there kind of make sure their voice doesn't get lost and also bring them to the table and give them an added voice she represents Chad and and the um very pastoral nomadic people of Chad and and who are kind of farmers so to take uh animals uh thousand kilometers a year or something like that is what they travel and move and they're nomadic across many borders um so that the late Chad was the in was what got me to the point of recognizing the ecological triptych it was looking at the migration of peoples around late Chad and also the impact of climate change on the fact that it's predicted that in 20 years time late Chad won't even be there and it's been this home to many different you know cultures and species and everything but recognizing the climate change has been you know we talk about oh it's sunny in Britain and you know oh it's a warmer summer but actually in places like Chad like by late Chad that climate change has been changing shrinking the the lake and so of course people have to migrate they have to move and I was going well what's the connection and the connection is that we are still burning you know electricity and flying everywhere here and going oh yeah I'm going to recycle and all of that but that has a knock on effect out there which creates migration and then we talk about borders and stopping people coming in when we've actually created that that's why I'm a global citizen yeah I love it I love it absolutely love it and then you also asked me about um the hierarchy and the Maslow's type of uh hierarchy of needs and and that first first and foremost they probably talk for hours days even about just about sustainability of sustainable development goals and Paris agreement that the resilience frontiers and many of the other things but just to kind of tickle and not give you the the full answer but to kind of help you with that um the sustainable development goals they're all integrally tied together as a system it's a systems view approach is based on dynamic modeling back casting a lot of foresight a lot of targets and indicators and they're not made for countries they're not made for cities they're not made for governments they're made for each and every one of us as an individual and there's no way you can cherry pick one or two SDGs and um and I think that's work on them without touching on all the others because they're a system that if you were to try to touch on number one red no poverty and just focus on that you would automatically touch on at least six others you know uh number two zero hunger uh number six clean water and sanitation number three quality education life on land life below water on and on you would touch on all of them because they're all tied to fixing the poverty issue and um in many respects they they're similar as a system to Maslow's hierarchy of needs and we shouldn't view them as a circle or as just a linear one to seventeen goals we should view them as a pyramid a cake a pie with the bottom layer really being the biosphere you know life on land life below water uh clean air uh water and sanitation and also our climate change and that that is where we get our resources that's where we get our food our basic needs for everyone and if we ruin that then we're not going to get to the societal level of them the economy or the transcend into a partnership for the whole world as global citizens for everyone to have those rights and and as far as indigenous uh or elders go in that respect they have those wisdoms of the sustainable global development goals already ingrained in their culture and the way they do it and it's more the western society democracies that kind of bastardize or change those those ways of looking at they don't need to know the colors of the goals or what they are because to for the most part they've been using them and it wasn't until they were colonized or until they've dealing with some unjust in the way of their farming or in the way of their life that they've had forever that we've kind of thrown them off of this rail that they were already on a way to preserve their environment their sustainability of way of of life and that's exactly what they said that's the elders that I was with that's exactly what they said it's about the language in the representation so to your point I've seen your model you know and it is this kind of pyramid that's interconnected that's exactly how they represent it because it's about the fact that they're already doing this but when you try and present it as a very linear way then all you see is that that's that's a colonialistic approach to them and us we are deciding that this is what needs to happen and you can pick you can't pick they're all interconnected so you have to look at them in their entirety what and they're really for each one of us individually and they're really providing us with the world's first ever plan for the future to get us to 2030 and it's really not so much about the western society develop societies that's more how can we bring that equality in those basic resources and those basic human rights globally up to a certain level and say we're never going to let humanity get below this level ever again and everybody's entitled to these basic rights and and we can still go above beyond that and bastardize it or or make it into some kind of a Frankenstein but that basic of human human rights and equality will always be there I mean there'll always be probably I hope not but but there'll probably always be someone or some somebody that'll try to find the trick or the hack or to do something that will do something but at least we need to have a level of civilization framework a level of inalienable indigenous rights for all humanity to kind of say hey we need to bring everybody at the same level instead of having these different levels and and but I mean I could go on forever I would also push it that it's not just rights for humanity it's rights for all beings all living beings on earth yeah yeah definitely and the earth is the mother earth is the biggest not only our biggest mother we were birthed out of her but as the since Carl Sagan is probably the best who who said it he says you know there's this this collective intelligence this consciousness that's emerging that sees the earth as one single organism and an organism divided amongst itself fighting against itself is doomed and it's so true if if we're as an organism's homo sapiens are fighting against each other or other species we're doomed because we're actually all all baked out of the same mother earth you know and and we crawled out of that primordial soup and that's really the key I have three more four more one hard question for you really hard you probably start sweating no I'm just easy but but there's but there and then three questions after that the hardest question I have for you today is the burning question and you've kind of answered it already but it's WTF but it's not the swear word even though we've been asking that it's what's the future what's the future wow okay I'll tell you the answer that popped into my head to me you asked the question is it for me to say that's that was my answer is it for me alone to determine what the future is I don't think it is I think that it's you know I'm I am one participant one uh one curious adventurer explorer who is trying to co-design co-collaborate to help us make sure that we do have the possibility of a future first and foremost but I think that's my answer I love it um you got it right you got the answer right so everybody I've asked is given has definitely given the different answer and why I appreciate your vulnerability say it's not really for me to answer that I honestly believe that we have multiple futures that we'll be preparing for and that will arrive and uh they'll be different for for all of us um but it's important that we do think about them and we think about what what are the best ways to to create a sustainable life that'll be there for future generations for future species and and that will we'll be able to exist along when we are gone you know and that's why I loved your question about um what what's your ancestral legacy you know and and I think that's so important that's a lot of the elders and the indigenous populations around the world that's what they ask you know how six generations nine generations we're going to make a decision now that will affect them and and what what what are those futures look like and and how can we do that that's where that's what my work is the the artistic work at the moment is about getting people to recognize the impact that ego has on that that question and it's huge yeah we need we need to get from that ego mindset that to an eco uh type of symbiosis exactly what we we were discussing the last three questions were really selfish for my listeners because I want to give them a sustainable takeaway um if there was one message that you could depart to them that you know was something sustainable that they could take away and apply and empower their lives that had the power to change your life what would it be your message to realize that activism isn't about going on protest marches activism is about believing in something bigger than yourself um and having an idea so like my answer to your question about what's the future having an idea of what's good or great looks and feels like for not just from our perspective but from all um recognizing that some of us have privilege that we can use to amplify that message uh and the voices and experiences of others and that what we're ultimately doing going back to that finding the others we find the others to try and help us on that journey so reframe what activism is and you have a different approach I think it's similar to reframing what politics is politics is not the people in parliament and offices and MPs and all of that and senators I don't think that's not politics that is theater to me politics is understanding and recognizing that every single aspect of your life is political every decision you make is political because somewhere somebody has governed that has regulated that has used in the language of nature capital for that and so understanding what activism is and understanding what politics is I think are the two things and that will give I hope will help people recognize that they have more power than they realize beautiful beautiful what should young innovators creatives futurists like you be looking for to make a real impact on our earth finding their voice find their voice and their medium or mediums what what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you say I wish I would have known that from the starter if I had learned that a little bit earlier be so much better off now to be able to ask better questions know that you know I think um another quote came to mind and it is um from a book called the way of kings which I haven't actually read but the beautiful quote is the purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think but to give you questions to think about that's what I try to do is get people to think and ask themselves different questions and if we create you know if we the work that you and I are doing in the way that you know we we and the your listeners is if we can get people to ask themselves better questions then that's the starting point because it means that people have leaned in it means that you left the mark and it means that they then have a choice can I do I choose to try and ignore that well I'm sure it will creep up again because these things have a habit of doing that or am I going to now work out okay I've got this question where am I going to find the answer and step outside of your echo chamber to try and find the answer absolutely love it that's all I have for you all my questions it's been wonderful we can talk for hours yes if there's anything you didn't get a say to my listeners or that you would like to depart us now it's your chance before I say goodbye well first of all thank you it's been a beautiful conversation and and even our conversation has been a system you know it's an organic system of weaving these interconnected patterns so I appreciate that because I think that those are the best types of conversations and I think advice suggestions takeaways for your listeners keep looking for the patterns keep looking for the patterns in unexpected places and the big ripples are not always the thing to follow thank you so much Ada it's been wonderful you have a wonderful day thank you