 Good afternoon, my name is Barry Colfer and I'm the Director of Research here at the Institute of International and European Affairs in Dublin. I'd like to welcome you to this second event in our inaugural IIEA Disability Policy Series. And today's event concerns the subject of access to education for persons with disabilities in Europe. Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us. I'm delighted to have Dr Vivian Rath from Trinity College Dublin and a head in the chair today. Viv, thanks a million for making the time. I'm going to hand over to Vivian who will introduce our speakers and he'll go through some housekeeping. Viv. Thank you Barry and I'm absolutely delighted to be here and thank you to the IIEA for hosting the second webinar on the experiences of disabled people in Ireland and the EU. It is very welcome to see the disability agenda being mainstreamed within the IIEA agenda and long may it continue. Okay, so before we begin today I have just some small housekeeping pieces that I need to go through and that's just a note for our webinars. Please note that both the initial address and the Q&A session are on the record unless otherwise stated. We would invite you to submit your questions via the Q&A function on Zoom and we will always do our absolute best to get to every question. And really I look forward to those questions because they really add a whole new dimension to the webinar. I would ask you to identify yourselves and your affiliation when submitting your question. And that I would also just note that we have ISL interpreters here today and closed captioning and I would ask you to avail of them. Now on to the more interesting aspect. Well, we have a fantastic lineup of speakers here today and I'm really pleased to be in a position to chair this webinar and to hear both the lived experience here today. But also of course we will hear the policy and academic experience and we're going to bring it all together to produce I'd imagine a wonderful picture of the context and the policy aspect in the EU in relation to access to education for persons with disabilities. I'm only going to give, even though our speakers have quite a long list of achievements, but I'm going to give just a quick line or two on each. Our keynote speaker Saifiyan is a graduate of the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities in the School of Education Trinity College Dublin and has vast experience and lived experience of disability and also a course from our own work. We have Professor Michael Chevlin, who is a professor in inclusive education and director of the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities in Trinity College Dublin. We have Delia Ferry, a professor of law at Menute University School of Law and Criminology and co-director of the Menute University assisted living and learning all Institute. And then we have Michael Hoish, head of UNISH Schools and Multilingualism in the European Commission's Directorate General for Education, Youth, Sport and Culture. And these brilliant speakers will be here today to share their views, their experiences. And I'm expecting a very interesting panel discussion of which I'd imagine you will learn a vast amount. It is important to remember that the UNCRPD focuses on inclusive education and the right that supports persons with disabilities to earn a livelihood to live independently and participate within the community and with the aim of reducing the risk of poverty. The UNCRPD committee recognises some groups, including persons with intellectual disabilities or multiple disabilities, persons who are deafblind and persons with autism are at greater risk of exclusion within education. And today we will focus on hearing the experiences of some of those groups, but also the barriers and the enablers. I'm now going to move quickly on to our speakers and our keynotes because I know that's what you really want to hear. You don't want to hear me talking. We want to hear Saifi and giving her experience and sharing that experience with us. So Saif, I'm going to pass over to you. Everybody is really excited to hear what you have to say. Hello everyone. My name is Saifi and I am an executive officer in the School of Education in Trinity College, Dublin. I have a mild intellectual disability and dyspraxia, which means I find organisational skills and writing long periods for long periods of time difficult. My educational background. I attended a mainstream secondary school in Cardo, which was brilliant because it was a secondary school that had people who have intellectual disabilities and so on. Because I have a keen interest in animals, I then applied for a course in animal care in the College of Further Education in Cardo, which was my first ever experience in college, which was a really good experience. I found some of the subjects difficult in the course, but I did get some help when needed. Some of the examples for some of the subjects that were difficult was the maths and animal anatomy. When I came to the exams, I had a scribe which was extremely helpful who helped me and who helped me with the exams. And in the end, I ended up passing all my exams at the end of the course. My introduction to Trinity College, Dublin. My parents heard about the Trinity Centre for People with Insexual Disabilities, TCPID and their certificate in Arts, Science and Classical Applied Practice course at the conference. One of the TCPID graduates, Margaret Turley, was presenting at the conference. And my parents knew that I would love this course. So I put in an application. I was so excited when I got the letter to say that I got a place. The excitement was huge. What makes it even more exciting is that my sister and my dad both went to Trinity College and they both studied here. So that made the excitement tenfold. My time as a student in Trinity College, Dublin. Starting college in 2018 was such a huge exciting time because I never thought I would ever get the chance to go to college. I had two friends joining me on this exciting journey. One of them was a year ahead of me in the course and the other one was starting with me in my class. It was great to have the company on the train on the way up to Dublin. Going to college really helped me to become more confident and independent. What made the Arts, Science and Inclusive Applied Practice course great was that everyone was treated the same and no one was treated any differently. What I enjoyed in Trinity College, Dublin. I loved being on campus with all the other TCD students. I enjoyed chatting with other students from different courses while waiting to go into class. And I would ask them what they would do, what they do, what course they're doing and I would in turn say what I did. I enjoyed meeting up with my classmates for lunch and chat and coffee. I loved learning new things. One of my favourite subjects was history of art. It made me appreciate paintings and other art forms that I never known about before. I loved being a college student just like everyone else. My happiest day in Trinity College. My absolute happiest day in Trinity College was my graduation day. We had done a lot of our course online due to the COVID pandemic. Well, we made most of it. We were bought back on campus for a very special graduation ceremony. The provost of Trinity College, Linda Doyle gave us our touch certificates. My graduate internship in A&L, good body. What did I do in A&L, good body? I posted about events on their internet websites, Alice and Yammer. I helped organise events for different events. For example, the quiz for the quarter run and the prize event. I also learned how to use the printer and the scanner. What did I find difficult when I started? Trying to remember all the names, find my way around the building and getting used to working in an office. What helped me to settle in, my mentor and my colleagues. My graduate internship in Trinity College. I started the internship in the CCPID in Trinity College in September 2022. My tasks include office administration, student support, student societies. In the student societies, I am now working with the student management fund who are going to be making sure that the society is more inclusive to our students and be able to understand the major and more inclusive students. The open days and T.Y. programs, the guest lectures, which are basically us giving my class, giving our lived experiences to the student teachers. They will be able to take what we learn, what knowledge we have and they will be able to take it out into their learning. Business partners presentations. And the most recent presentation, and they presented at the conference in Salzburg in October 2022. Why is it important for people with disabilities to attend higher education? It gives students a sense of belonging. It shows that students with disabilities are just as important as everyone else. It demonstrates that all students of all abilities should be given the same opportunities. Why is it important that students with intellectual disabilities get the proper support? It's important because some students need support to make learning a bit easier. For example, it may help some students to get the notes before classes. It will not only help the students, but it would also help the lecturer to understand that what each student might need. Thank you. Any questions? Thank you very much. That was a fantastic presentation. Thank you. You can take a minute there now to gather your thoughts. And whilst you're doing that, I just had one little question before we go over to Michael, because it was really interesting. And I thought especially one of the points that I thought was really important was that idea of opportunity and that it's giving people with intellectual disabilities opportunities like everybody else. And that was really important. And I know that since you've completed your studies, you've gone on to obtain full-time employment in the Trinity Centre for people with intellectual disabilities. I'm just wondering what difference has it made for you to have a full-time job now? I suppose it gives me a sense of security, knowing that I don't have to worry about not having a job. And also it gives me a sense of achievement as well. Because coming from being a student in the course to actually working here is huge. It's just an amazing feeling. And I feel valued. I feel like I'm a valued member of staff. I feel that I can make changes and give ideas that help students with intellectual disabilities to make them feel like they're not any different to anyone else. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, it's important to have something productive and rewarding to do and be appreciated for my efforts and also feel a sense of belonging. You've mentioned some really important points there, that word belonging. And it certainly sounds like you're part of the team in Trinity and you're bringing about change as well, of course, which is a critical aspect. And you should be very proud of that and well done. I have loads of other questions for you, but I'm not going to ask you now because I'm going to give you a little break. And I'm going to pass on to Professor Michael Shevelin. Michael, having heard Saib's presentation, would you be able to give us a little more background on the centre and where it all began? Maybe perhaps you'd also be able to give us some context in relation to Ireland and educational pathways. Well, as someone said, follow that. Thanks for that Saib. We are obviously delighted to have you as part of our team. And I suppose Trinity Centre came from a number of different developments and there was an awareness that young people with intellectual disability were often set on a certain path in life. And it had been decided very, very early and often decided once they were diagnosed. And that path was often a very narrow one. It was, and often had quite a number of cliff edges, I would suggest, that it was very easy to fall over, go into a little limbo, disappear. And so people's trajectory was almost already decided before they even, maybe even left school, primary school going into secondary school or into a special school. And as a result of that then, there were very few systems in place to support young people as they try to develop their skills and their knowledge. And we became very conscious of that and there's been a programme of one kind or another in Trinity, probably for the last 20 years. However, I think the big breakthrough really has been developing an accredited programme that fits within the national framework of qualifications that is recognisable for employers, but for families, for educators, but particularly for the young people themselves. That they know this is a valuable learning experience. And our idea really is we provide a very generic programme. It's not a vocational programme. And the idea is that young people become successful learners, that they know they can learn and that that's valuable to learn and that they can continue on a kind of lifelong journey of learning. And that's kind of been our ambition and we've learned as we've gone along. The other key element is the link into our business partners. And in second year, our students would have a work placement for eight weeks, eight Fridays, learning some of the basic skills of what a workplace looks like, how to be there, when to drink your coffee, when to have your lunch, do all the very, very basic things that we all take for granted in a working environment. And then our young people will have an opportunity to do a six-month paid internship. Number of those, again as Saif has described them and A&L Goodbody, we have 45 business partners at the moment. And they commit to providing the work placements and also the internships. And gradually what's beginning to happen is that young people are being made permanent, if not in their place of internship in a follow-on business. And they're making a real contribution. And I think it goes back in a way to a whole systemic issue. And that is that's because most, we have parallel systems really in health, social welfare and education in Ireland. And as a result of that, people are directed one way or the other. And health and social welfare sit together. So often a young person who has been diagnosed as having a particular type of disability exists in that sphere. And then over here on the other side is education. But often the funding doesn't transfer as the young person moves through the different life stages, moves from primary to secondary. And quite a lot of money is spent on rehabilitation. And I suppose our argument would be the young people don't need rehabilitation. They just need education. And again, as I've said, they need an opportunity to make that real and to have something meaningful in their lives. And there's still a number of stages to go because we're really retrofitting the system and making tweaks rather than saying all young people have a right to progress in education. All young people should have these different types of opportunities. And as a result, when we start with the all rather than the some, I think then we begin to change the dynamic. And as you know, when people are named and they're counted, then the resources follow. And that's been the big breakthrough in Ireland with the Minister for Further and Higher Education and his officials and the Higher Education Authority. There is now a path for access program on a pilot basis. And it's anticipated that quite a number of programs will begin throughout the country. For that to affect substantial change, then hopefully the funding mechanisms change as well. And that is recognized. These young people have a right to go to college if there are programs there that they will benefit from. Just as we say for every other youngster. Thank you, Michael. And I was just one interested. And before I go on to Michael or to Delia, sorry, before I just go on one point you mentioned there and we'll come back to some deeper questions later on. You mentioned the notion of work placements versus work experience. And maybe could you explain that because I think, you know, I know from my own experience from other disabled people that many disabled people get caught up in a cycle of work experience, unpaid work experience after unpaid work experience. And I'm just interested to hear what's the difference in having a work placement in the program. I suppose the thanks for the question there Vivian it's an important we make a distinction if work placement that is part of the program isn't paid, but it's very much it's like an internship as in learning. It's still part of the learning and there is an assessment at the end of that. How they participate or what have people learned what are the young people learned from that experience. The next stage is radically different. They are guaranteed a six month paid internship and it's not minimum wage. It's a decent wage. Another thing that is that their work is valuable while they're learning and learning skills. They are making a contribution. And it's from that then we obviously have a business pathways coordinator. We also two occupation therapists who work with us very, very much as part of the team. And they visit the business and we ask the business to have a mentor from within the business who is a work buddy. The model has been to have a job coach. And while some job coaches do a great job, the temptation is always that the people in the business, the colleagues speak to the job coach and the young person then is sort of everything is mediated. And our idea really is that we want to become fully embedded in the businesses. Most of our businesses, quite a number have been with us now 70 years and they keep signing up, which is great. But they're also committing themselves. They've moved way, way, way beyond corporate social responsibility. It's really into that inclusion and diversity. They want a diverse workforce, but they want to know how can we do this well? How can we do this in the best way that we can? So we provide some supports, but really our idea is that over time, the capacity comes from within the business that we build that capacity and the confidence. And we're just seeing more and more examples of it. Quite a few of our young people now are being made permanent with permanent contracts and they go through every process. It is mediated to some extent with reasonable accommodations, obviously, because some of the processes often don't suit a lot of young people. Never mind our young people, particularly in the beginning of their work. So it's a real partnership and it isn't just relying on one person inside the business. Human resources are involved, senior management, the team leader and obviously the mentor or mentors. After COVID-19, not as many people are in the office, so sometimes you need two or three mentors. Of course, of course, Michael. And thank you for that. And I'll be coming back to you with some other questions later on. Delia, thank you for joining us. Michael has mentioned the importance of embedding it in policy. Embedding the changes in policy. He's talked about schemes in Ireland called PAT for funding. He's mentioned about the national access plan and the groups being named, like people with intellectual disabilities being named. You have vast experience in relation to the UNCRPD, many of the other human rights instruments. I wonder, Delia, could you perhaps provide us with some of the policy context in relation to access to education for persons with disabilities, both in Ireland, but also at an EU and international level. Thank you very much. And so I would like to start by thanking the organizers for having me today. It's a great pleasure for me to have the opportunity to contribute to this panel. And so I'd like to start by mentioning that the right to education is well rooted in international human rights law. It's a human right and everyone should enjoy this right. The right to education is proclaimed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the International Covenant on Economic and Social and Cultural Rights in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. However, it is the UNCRPD that you've even mentioned quite a few times that proclaims the right to inclusive education and the word inclusive makes a lot of difference here. The UNCRPD marks, in my opinion, step forward when we look at the right to education, because it requires state parties to create a system that welcomes everyone and give everyone, regardless their disability, the opportunity, as we were saying before, to learn and to engage in an educational setting. And I would like to draw your attention also to the fact that inclusive education systems according to the CRPD should ensure the full development of human potential and sense of dignity and self worth of everyone. And this should strengthen the respect for human diversity. And I think that this is a key obligations that states parties to the CRPD should comply with. Then, of course, Article 24, which is the article that provides for the right to education in the convention is quite complex and lengthy and I'm not going into detail, but I just want to mention that it requires state parties to ensure that reasonable accommodation is adopted in all educational settings to support the learning path of students with disabilities. Reasonable accommodation is essential, but it also tallies with accessibility, broader accessibility measure, we need to make our curriculum accessible to everyone. The CRPD is the key international standard when we look at the right to education, the right to inclusive education. But it also represents a bit more in Europe because the convention has been ratified by the European Union alongside its member states and the Court of Justice of the European Union as clarified that the CRPD is now integral part of European Union law. And as such, it has a sub constitutional status which means that is situated below the EU treaties, but above regulations and directives and regulations and directives need to be implemented and interpreted in light and in compliance with the CRPD. The CRPD and the ratification of the CRPD in the European Union was a huge milestone for disability policies, and it has allowed the means streaming of disability across the EU action. When it comes to education, you may consider that the European Union has only a supporting competence. So article 165 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union states that the European Union shall contribute to the development of quality education by encouraging cooperation between member states. And if necessary, by supporting and supplementing their action. So the European Union has limited competencies when it comes to education, but it can do a lot in supporting member states when they enact system of inclusive education. And in fact, the European Disability Strategy 2010-2020 identified education as one of the key areas of action for the European Union. And the European Union committed in particular the Commission committed to support the goal of inclusive quality education and training through the use of its financial instrument instrument that supports the exchange of best practices but also that support the exchange students exchanges or trainers or lecturers exchange exchanges across Europe. And that was quite important. The following strategy, the strategy on the rights of persons with disabilities 2021-2030 also plays an emphasis on quality education and the need to ensure an education that reaches everyone. So it is accessible to everyone. And although the policy action of the European Union has been quite important so far, its impact in the field of education has been limited, and there has been a European report from the European Court of Auditor that was released just a week ago that signals that we have a long road ahead, so the impact of the European Union policy in the fields of education has been limited. But this is also due to the fact that European Union legislation has not advanced as it could have. In fact, discrimination on the ground of disability as well as on other ground is protected at the European Union level, but only with regard to employment and vocational training, but not with regard to access to education. A proposal that was put forward by the Commission in 2008, so quite a long time ago, is still stuck in the Council and there has been a political disagreement over certain provisions of this proposal for a directive that extended protection against discrimination on the ground of disability among other backgrounds in access to services, including educational services, but also social security and health. This proposal will be very, very important and we hope that with a new commission that will, will enter, will take a few days after the election in May 2024, this new, this proposal will be prioritized again. However, the EU has done a lot when it comes to accessibility. There are two pieces of legislation that develop accessibility directive and the European Accessibility Act, which is also a directive that have been approved respectively in 2016 and in 2019. They are not specifically focused on education or educational institutions, but they enhance accessibility of tools that are used also in educational settings. So the website accessibility mandates the accessibility of all websites and application of public institutions, including educational institutions that are public. And this is quite important. So the website of the university needs to be accessible to people with disabilities that need to be able to engage with the content of that website, regardless of their disability. The European Accessibility Act includes a range of accessibility requirements for a lot of products, IT products, mostly. But among those products, there are eBooks and the software related to eBooks. So in educational setting, books are important. They are tools that we use every day. So I think the European Accessibility Act could really bring accessibility or widen accessibility in educational setting. On the rule, I think that the European Union has endeavored to mainstream disability across all its areas of action. And certainly education, regardless of the fact that is an area of supporting competence, is an area in which the European Union has done quite a lot so far. The impact is not yet visible in the member states, but it will be in the long run. We have also to say, to say, as a last probably note that inclusive education has become very visible as an objective and as a principle. In fact, it features in the European pillar of social rights in the first principle. It is stated that everyone has the right to quality and inclusive education training and lifelong learning. And I think this is a quite important affirmation that the pillar that was proclaimed in 2017 makes. So I think that the European Union will provide an important context also to develop national policies and to know which member states towards more inclusive systems. Thank you very much. I mean, you have provided us with so much information in such a short spell that I'd imagine people are going to be really watching this a couple of times to try and take it all in. And thank you. Thank you. And you mentioned some of the resources and I totally agree with you that the web accessibility directive is absolutely essential. And of course, that it's, there is a real necessity for it to be implemented as quickly as possible. And another course very useful tool which has been introduced, of course, is the European Accessibility Resource Centre, which I think is going to make a huge difference and that I'm just very briefly before we go on to Michael. You mentioned about the, I suppose, the backlog or the barriers there to bringing through the proposals around education proposals and making education more accessible and inclusive. I'm just wondering what is the role of the Council of Europe as another regional organisation that may support inclusive education. And Delia, I asked briefly because Michael, I want to give Michael an opportunity as well, of course. Thank you. Absolutely. I will try to be brief. So, in Europe, alongside the European Union, the Council of Europe is an important regional organisation. And in particular the European Court on Human Rights has delivered quite a few judicial decisions that are quite important in terms of ensuring inclusive education. We have to mention that case law of the Court of Human Rights, the European Court of Human Rights has not always been consistent. So we do have some decisions that are quite questionable but we do have important decisions that have to be made by the role of inclusive education and to clarify the role of reasonable accommodation in inclusive education settings. And I want just to mention one recent case, which is JL versus Italy, in which the Court cited the CRPD and also referred to the inclusive education as the primary tool that states have to deploy when they organise their educational system. Yeah, and I think that's a very interesting point as well around identifying or defining what inclusive education is. And I know in Ireland there is a lot of discussion going on at the moment about what it is and how it's defined. And I wonder sometimes does that create some confusion or maybe do we need to do a lot more work around it. But Michael, I need to finally get on to you. It's been so interesting so far and I'm really looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Just to note, Michael is the head of UNISH schools and multilingualism in the European Commission's Directorate General for Education, youth, sport and culture. Michael, you'd like to maybe elaborate a little bit more on around the policy and I suppose as well perhaps the importance of engaging with people to hear the lived experience. Yeah, thanks a lot Vivian and thanks a lot really to the previous speakers. It was so interesting to listen. And I mean the angle I would like to give to this that we've heard from Michael Shevlin, all young people should have the right and possibilities for education. We've heard it from Saif that it's actually possible in higher education and what you've done there Trinity and Delia set out the legal framework is actually very well developed even case law. The issue we have is that we look at reality. I think it's very far away from what all these legal texts stipulate and from the course and that's something we think that is really a big, big, big challenge. I think it's pretty clear what is asked for. But we have still very, very far away from many, many people with disabilities to actually have their rights in practice having them implemented being a living experience, maybe to to make it very banal. Indeed is wonderful example that you showed you've done in Trinity and Saif is an example of this. Saif mentioned she did inclusive education and secondary. In most European countries we actually are struggling to make inclusive education happen in primary and secondary education, before we actually speak of high education so the challenge is still huge. What are we doing? Well, as Delia set out so nicely, we are role is sort of to exchange good practice and with a clear objective in mind and the objectives are the ones you mentioned inclusive education, supporting inclusive education for all pupils and students irrespective of where this individual situation is an objective is shared. And that's what this happened and there we're trying to help countries to do it, because we have good examples in some countries of Europe, and we have some countries who are willing to learn from each other and so that's that's a bit my job to support those countries and we do it different ways I mean the one thing is we simply, we have these legal texts and then we have a bit more medium level policy documents I mean one that the Council of Ministers they represented the body which brings together education ministers of all European Union member states has adopted a bit less than a year ago it's called pathways to school success. Success for all young people, and that includes also specific actions for people with disability is not a strategy about disability it's about everyone who has challenges but we have we address it as a particular target group. And there there there is a reminder of the need for countries when they set up their own policy strategies for example to think of different levels of policy level but also guidance given to school education continuous professional development being offered to teachers to getting a mixture between on the one hand more generalized support to all pupils that are in school for having inclusive settings and the same measures for everybody, and some who need sort of some more targeted support to also provide that. So it sets out the number of principles that should be developed so that's one way we're doing. And then it's all nice to have this in a piece of paper, it's nice it's good because I don't want to play this small if we all if the Council or Education Minister say that's what we want to do we can also remind them that committed to this. And we then bring together experts from all countries who say who to tell us on the one hand if they have good examples and one the one hand if they say this live questions. I want to want to work on this but I have some challenges can my neighbors please can you please help me. So just in a few weeks, so I think in 10 days we're bringing together number set representatives, but also some stakeholder organizations where they can simply exchange on good practice and if everything goes well, they go back and say let's say Lithuania or Ireland or wherever whatever country they say we're developing a law here we developing a policy. I've seen something really interesting from country x y or that. So, let's take some ideas from there when we develop our own own policies and that's a bit always the happiest moment in my professional life if someone tells me. Well I've done something at home that was really helpful and I was inspired by what I've seen in my neighboring country. So that's the good thing we use for that we have an European agency for special needs and inclusive education that's not in European Union situations. It's a body that member states have created but which also gets a lot of funding from the side in and also to support countries in sort of finding what works and what is what is difficult and to inspire others. And last but not least what we do is the Erasmus program the Erasmus plus program, which is a program about policy and disability where we also try to provide opportunities for people with all sorts of inclusion issues including people with disabilities. Michael thank you very much for that description of what happens and what you're doing. What grabbed my attention was that you noted the I suppose the difference between what's in law and those laws that exist like the UN CRPD. We've got our UN SDGs we've got our disability which we haven't mentioned yet which I know many people are always very interested in talking about. But what I'm trying to get to is that what would help policymakers like you actually move the dial forward. And I think as well and another part to that as well as a disability rights activist as well and other disability rights activists often see a big gap between say us and policymakers how do we close that gap how do we bring that as I said to dial forward here. I mean the my policy by work wouldn't be worth anything if in some way I could not see it's actually helpful for people. I mean, I hate. Okay, sometimes it happens. I do these jobs you sometimes write documents that is just for an organization but at the end of the day we're there to support colleagues in the countries but actually learn us themselves. I mentioned the last program before I mean one of the things we're really trying to to to to to to work on is that when we have this program as most classes very well known in higher education school vocational training that everybody can really know which means everybody everybody so also learn us with disability. So that's something we've worked on a bit in the past years that very concretely we've we've in our implementing body so the program is always implemented with the help of national partner organizations. So that we ask all of them. First, you please develop your own strategy that's still paper, but then really get out to the people. I mean, on the one hand, show what's possible because for example in Erasmus, if you have special needs, either because of disability but also because of other reasons it can be a very poor background in a particular part of a town for example and all this. I mean the institutions they can visit each other I mean if Michael for example did an exchange program and he had an partner university somewhere else in Europe had doubts of the feasibility because they have less experience than Michael and Trinity have and we would he would get some extra support to sort of simply to to to to visit this other institution to welcome them and to prepare the exchange that would be organized a bit later on so there's some extra work. If people have the needs of, of let's say simply some health support and we've had students with the, how do you say the alize we have kidney problems and you have you need, you need quite important medical care during the stay you stay abroad, you can get it you can get some extra support in terms of financial means. And I think one of the, so that's available but it also needs to be known. So we're trying also to ask our colleagues in our national agencies to reach out to the education institutions and to to to to to groups to tell us what they need. And we know that you to to to be able to to participate in our program. And I may I spoke a lot about mobility now and we actually the last plus we have mobility opportunities for for school people for that to learn us for for for higher education, but we also have quite many programs that we have where we also organize with the program exchange to practice so that a college can work with another college across Europe, the school with another network of schools across Europe to see how can I organize myself. And that that that it's we become more inclusive, or that we have teacher training programs. And the last point we have currently something we call a last plus teacher academies, we actually have one of the teacher academies which is looking specifically at how can inclusive education be better integrated into initial teacher education and continuous professional development. So again there, join teacher education institution across Europe to make them learn from each other. And those are really critical steps I think that we have been doing a lot of work in terms of teacher education here in Ireland to and ensuring that that the teachers are aware and disability aware but also I think as well that teachers act as role models for young students and of course encouraging disabled people to go into teaching to which is very important. And one of the things that which we have aware of in terms of barriers for people undertaking Erasmus plus has been country regulations in relation to the provision of supports. So for instance PA supports, where certain countries won't allow you to transfer your PA allocation supports to the host country, which acts as a barrier. So how do we overcome those individual country regulations in order to create that mobilization and to support that mobilization. I don't have a specific reply here now but if it's a for us. For me this is quite outrageous that the example because if you're an exchange students your course remain. I mean, if you remain still a student in your country organization you're sent for short period or longer period to another one. The way, at least in the case of Erasmus the way this works is that we try to cover the extra cost incurred by the mobility experience. So normally the, I mean everything which is already there at the national level should normally be there. It's within the European Union, because you're not you're going there on a temporary basis. But if there are individual regulations we always have them also for we actually also have them also for people not with disabilities for other invocation training is a typical issue of health and safety regulations and vocational training that is having children's problems when they have worked at that when a vocational students go for a while away. I mean that's about daily business we try to work with the legislation in those countries we try to see if there are any exceptions in law, which can say that for this short period or longer period it's still the case. It's a continuous way of trying to convince and trying to to reform the small things which need to be changed. Of course, absolutely. And that's the constant challenge that I think we all face in trying to bring about the change. The Michael if Michael Chevron if I could perhaps come back to you in relation to access to education but and mainstreaming access to education at the UN CRPD advocates the inclusion of disabled people in their communities including mainstream classrooms and you you've you've written that we are at a crossroads in relation to mainstream mainstream education or to remain in special school class model. Would you be able to explain that and why it's important. I think it's, as you said earlier like the whole inclusion debate about what actually constitutes inclusion what is it. What does it look like what does it feel like. And I think this varies enormously. And I think we've made significant progress in Ireland and different research studies different practices that I've seen some really lovely examples of how you include everybody, not just youngsters with disabilities. But the difficulty goes into, I think the things that underpin our system we have a very we still have this obsession with fixed ability thinking. And we believe that everyone gets a certain amount of intelligence. And this is their quotient. And that's what will matter. And it really disempowered everybody. And I think, and then we have a system where there's high stakes testing. And so everything gets directed in a particular way which is how do we get people through the these exams, particularly at second level and it's very interesting that the vast majority of youngsters with intellectual disabilities in special schools are of secondary school age, which is telling us something, either parents are worried that their children won't survive, or they've survived well in primary, but not in post primary. And yet I've seen wonderful examples, but we haven't been able to make it consistent and that it's a guarantee that young people will be included. And I thought it was really significant what Saif was saying about being valued about feeling that they belong. And I know young people in our program have said, this is the first time I've ever felt that I belong. This is the first time in work I felt valued. I'm wrong when that's the first time, you know, and it's telling us and we do know what to do. I mean, it's not rocket science. We do know there's plenty of pedagogy out there. There's plenty of expertise. There's plenty of knowledge about how to make a curriculum accessible, how to ensure that young people can be successful learners. And that's our key aim with our program is that the young people will be successful learners. There are all kinds of things in the way, as I said, the high stakes testing, the fix the ability thinking, which distorts how we work with children. And it's sort of, as I said, it's so pessimistic, which education should be about optimism, about what's possible. We believe then that this has already been decided. This child will only be able to progress so far. And then we justify restricted curriculum on the basis of that. And we had a young person and Saif will know this person very well who's learning Italian with us at the moment. And she came out the other day, and it was if she was on a total high. She was speaking Italian, people were sending her messages in Italian, she was sending messages back. I never believed that I could learn another language. And I think that's what I find a little frustrating that we do know what to do. We do know how to do it. But different things conspire. I don't think I think the fact that we're opening up so many new special classes doesn't help. Because it hasn't been, we haven't said what do these mean. You know, if they were resource classes, where the child belong to a base class, and then they may need, and I've seen examples in Ireland where children spend 80% of their time in the mainstream class. And then they need different types of support. And I know in the research I've done, some young people have said, I really value the one-to-one. And that gets me over the hump. That gets me over the immediate difficulty. And then I can move on. I'm empowered. I can move on. And I feel confident. What happens is a lot of these supports become embedded. And that's where the children get stuck and the teachers get stuck. And some of it is to do with the funding models. You know, where we say that's what we were trying to talk about myself and Dr. Joanne Banks, my colleague in that article that you mentioned. That we say a special class is this is what it is, and it's a physical entity. Now, the clever schools use the resource of the extra teacher or other assistants and the other types of supports that come in. But that isn't widespread enough. That makes absolute sense to me. And I think that we need to be cognizant of our obligations under the UN CRPD and the need to move towards and continue to move towards mainstreaming of service inclusion of disabled people in all aspects of our community. And I think, from my own perspective, it's certainly a concern to see an increase in the number of special schools, special classes in the system. And it's interesting. Does anybody have a comment on that? Have you any thoughts in relation to the mainstreaming? Well, in relation to the mainstreaming, I think it's important that we continue to learn from each other. And in this respect, the European Union is really a good environment to learn from best practices and to try and implement them nationally. But I would like also to pick up very briefly on something that was mentioned earlier. So the portability of certain benefits or allowances that are within the remit of national welfare systems. So in the European Union, unfortunately, there is a coordination of social security system, but there is no harmonization whatsoever. And that is a block when it comes to the portability of certain non-contributory benefits. However, I just want to mention a recent development that doesn't unfortunately change the situation with regard to social security and social assistance, but still may make travel across Europe for people with disabilities, young people with disabilities easier. So the commission presented on the 6th of September the proposal for a European disability card. So the card will be, of course, created at the national level and given to people that qualify as persons with disabilities according to that national system. But it will allow people that go abroad to have their disability status recognized and to avail of certain services or facilities on the basis of that card. And I think this is a quite important development. At present, it's only a proposal. It's a proposal for a directive. And it mentions, unfortunately, short stays. So an Erasmus day of six months doesn't seem to fall in the current scope of the proposal. But the European Disability Forum is actually pushing towards enlarging the material scope of the proposal with regard to the possibility for, for instance, students that go on Erasmus to use the card abroad to avail of certain services when they are abroad. And I think that this is an important development. We will see what happens because we are at the very beginning. But again, I think we need also to look at what is possible and to try and in particular push towards the realisation of the rights that are proclaimed into the CRPD as far as we can with all the tools that are available at the policy and legislative levels. Absolutely, Delia. And I think I'm really delighted that you mentioned the card and I think it's going to make a significant difference. Michael, can I bring you in here at this point here that in relation, maybe you might have some comment on the two items that have been raised, but also I have a specific question as well. There's a number of questions coming in here now. Excuse me. In relation to how do we are how in you within your work, how do you include disabled people themselves in the decision making processes, but also in the making and shaping of policies relating to education. Yeah, good question. The, I mean, we try to engage with all stakeholders that we have in when preparing new pieces of legislation like the pathways to school success I mentioned we did the public consultation about two years ago, where we also reached out to stakeholder organisations. I don't know. I don't remember now whether for example the European Disability Forum that Delia mentioned participated there. The European Agency of special needs education and inclusive education is a regular member of our of our of our working group implementing this pathways to school success. I was just mentioning and as I mentioned also when we look at the Erasmus guidelines, we have sort of given instructions to our national implementing organization to reach out to national stakeholder organisations how good we were there specifically in terms of community organisations. I would need to check I would need to know but we try to do now also for example to get give children's voice in our consultations process because that's also quite important given that we work in education, which is for education so don't listen only to the adults, but also ask children's children. So, definitely yes. And on the on the portability of the of the budget that you mentioned and that also Delia referred to the, the legal framework it's true that there's a, I mean the social security coordination is, is the way that they described it. Yes, but of course it's a huge thing which where countries are very much afraid of portability of of of benefits from one country to the other. I mean, we are constantly struggling with. We interpret a six month stay for example for me it's still a temporary short term stay. We don't lose your affiliation to your home country. You're not settling if I go to Italy when I did my Erasmus to Italy I did not settle permanently in Italy of course I registered with the university there registered with the municipality but I told them listen I'm a guest student here for five months and then I'm going back and my university wanted to have me back. I just read have a book on at home which of an activist in German, German activist saying okay on inclusion saying this and people who believe in inclusion they find solutions, those who don't know they find excuses. That's a typical case, how the budget, the cost can be very cannot be very high in terms of transferring the personal assistance budgets for for for visibility so if they don't want to solve it's part of the excuses. And I think there we try to to help in individual cases. Sometimes it's possible but it's a well they're big challenges there so very very much. I mean, I mean what you see also for my reply that the challenge we have it's very often still on the good will one by one case by case decisions where the people. Corporating and of course we still have to come become better in sort of making the right for everybody and also making this right happen, so to get the more inclusive and more, more specific regulations. I think it is it's very. It's an eye opener for me and I imagine for the audience here as well from Michael to hear the challenges that you as a policymaker. And in your role face in terms of trying to bring about change to and I think that is very useful because obviously often that's not perhaps considered. Especially from an activist perspective that you know, I guess people in your position might be seen as a gatekeeper, or maybe the reason why something hasn't changed. Whereas in actual fact you're you're very much painting a picture about the very significant challenges that you to face trying to make changes so it's it's quite interesting to hear that perspective to. I'm going to comment back around now to save save I hope you've had an opportunity to take a breath after your wonderful presentation. And I just want to bring you in here at this point, because I'm thinking of the question I asked Michael. I want to make a point about including disabled people in decision making and being involved in policymaking and I think you're probably best placed to answer a question relating to that and during during your time in college, were you involved in any leadership or decision making process that maybe you'd like to tell us about. And so I was a S2S I was asked to be a S2S mentor with myself and my friends. For the first time in the course, and it was, it was great, but we didn't get the proper training to so we didn't exactly know exactly what we what we're supposed to be doing so we know. But I recently did training since then. So now I understand what the what the role would have been. You get one thing. Yeah, no, and that's that's important. And I know of course you were involved in the disability rights module as well. I think you, you, you invited a minister in to minister of to discuss the issues maybe quickly tell us about that. And so we, we invited the Minister for Education to Trinity. And so it was a very interesting conversation because, you know, as you know, he's very involved in very into, you know, making sure that education is accessible for students within sexual disabilities. And, you know, his brother is part of, as I am, the autism, students of autism. Absolutely. Yeah. And I see we have another, I think I'm just there in terms of time, I think we're coming close to the end. So I think I'm not sure I'm going to get to the last question. But in terms of if anybody has any general comments that they would like to add now before we come to to come to tidying up. Does anyone anything they'd like to add. Well, on that basis then I deal. I am going to ask you a question. Despite the significant progress, there exists many obstacles that limit access to education for persons with disabilities and we've heard about some of those here today and including like the failure to implement a human rights model of disability. And maybe low expectations within mainstream settings. Antonio Gutierrez commented in relation to the rights of disability that we are at. He was a fear that we are at a stage where we may risk reversing what the progress that we have made was his comment. Do you feel that we are in danger of reversing when it comes to the rights to education for persons with disabilities in the EU. So I don't think we are in this situation, but I do think that we need to be alert and we need to continue working. So I think we need to look at what has been done, but bring this forward. That's essential. So although I don't see in Europe in particular and in certain parts of Europe more than in others. I don't see the risk of reversing. I see a very important role played by people with disabilities in advocacy, both at the national level and the European level. So I don't see the risk of reversing, but I do see the need to advance the rights and to continue because we are very far away from realizing what has been stated in the CRPD. So there is a long road ahead. So that's what I think. And in terms of the European Union, I again, I think that it has the potential to really support the member states to deliver on inclusive education. But you know, there is the need to keep the commitment there and to support inclusive practices to support a continuous dialogue with people with disabilities. I think you've actually hit on a very important point, which is the inclusion of disabled people's organizations, disabled people themselves in those roles. Michael Toys, you have your hand up there. Would you like to make a comment? Yes, and thank you so much for the question. And also, I think this involvement of people with disabilities themselves, I mean, that's, that's, I said, it can become better. But of course, the documents that they mentioned our strategies, implementing models, of course, they are all developed in dialogue and common views. I mean, I see, I see certain risks. So I think there's no risk that we go backwards when it comes to the legal framework. But when sometimes when I see in terms of let's say really pushing for the inclusive models via segregated education models, I mean, like Michael mentioned also the class, special classes or special schools. There are some countries where it goes back and forth. I mean, including countries which have tried. There are unfortunately a number of countries in Europe, where there have been elections where certain projects that have encountered practical difficulties for implementation. They were not perfect, but they were sort of where the governments then decided to go some steps backwards. There are some regions in Germany happened. It has a Flemish community in Belgium, and there are some other countries where really there's a risk of this sort of idea of inclusive education rather than segregated not being able to take it forward enough. But I don't want to start to pessimistic on to negative, because I really liked what Michael also said earlier today and there's so wonderful examples out there and also that gives my myself satisfaction for the job that also when we look at the various projects that we see institutions working together, coming with solutions, they come with it in with solutions. They have happy teachers and well trained professionals at the end who are satisfied with their job, and they have absolutely tremendous individual institutions at the end. So there are so many good examples, there's huge difficulties, but I mean there's so many good examples that really keeps the community promoting these values driving. There's huge challenges, but sometimes for me at least, sometimes I get angry because I'm also privately, I'm also a father of a child with Down syndrome. I get frustrated, but you see some wonderful examples that so keep you also as a professional working and various way I can go to teachers and tell them listen I've seen this there and teachers themselves tell me I've participated in an endless project that really has helped me thrive has supported my learners and we've seen it also here today. So I think there is reason for optimism to continue this, this discussion and sometimes battle even, but I think we share would like to finish a bit on a positive note. And I think that is an absolute the absolute best way to, to finish our session here today. And thank you very much to all our speakers. Thank you to all of your speakers. Saif Ian for a fantastic presentation on her lived experience and well done Saif. Professor Michael Chevlin in the School of Education Trinity College Dublin and of course Delia Ferry in the All Institute in Minute University and of course Michael Taish from the head of unit in his department. Thank you very much for a wonderful session. I hope our audience has enjoyed it as much as I have enjoyed it. And I hope you all got something from it. This will be this event is recorded and the recording will be up online. I hope you all have a lovely afternoon. Take care. Goodbye.