 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Buccellato here in my home studio office And I'm here with my colleague and friend And co-conspirator the intrepid Scott Bernstein Hey now partner in crime partner in crime and also would like to remind everyone Please subscribe to our podcast on YouTube or the audio version if you listen to it on Spotify Google Apple other places also check out Scott's online magazine gangster report and Please support us on social media. We appreciate that we see the comments on YouTube and Facebook and Instagram Twitter and you know, it's just the three of us So sometimes it takes a while for us to get back, but we appreciate the support and also spread the word It's very helpful when you You know share share the content so anyhow we have An interesting episode tonight. We're gonna go with one of the most well-known talk about one of the most well-known and infamous mafiosi of all time and Nikki Scarfo who was the boss of Philadelphia and We're basically going to deep dive his his life. We've referenced him in a number of other episodes We've had a number of Philadelphia episodes where he comes up But this is the first time we'll devote the whole episode to his his really rise and fall and And I'll be able to contextualize some of my kind of firsthand experience writing Mafia Prince, which is you know the pinnacle of Mike Furrier and you know my opus You know, it's my it's my Moby Dick. It's my More in peace Very proud of it and you know help put me on the map and open the door to me being able to report about Philadelphia Which is really my favorite favorite subject to report on when it comes to organized crime and Well, that's that's one of the reasons Started in rubber. That's one of the reasons why when I pitched this to Scott and said maybe we should do this is People speaking of people contacting us on social media People have asked, you know, what why doesn't Scott talk more about Mafia Prince people are a fan of that book. So we're gonna Our point of departure here is Nikki Scarfo. That'll be the main issue here But we're going to tie this into Scott's experiences writing a book with Nikki's nephew who was also a high-ranking member himself Under boss. Yeah So you want to start us off Bernie like maybe Bit of what's going on now and how this. Oh, yeah, well how this We can connect that to this historical case study. Well, you know, the Philadelphia Mob has been in the news quite a bit late summer early fall 2023 with the news that alleged current my boss skinny Joey Marlino is jumping into the podcasting game and Jumping out in front of the camera, you know, according to him and his people. He's been retired from Running the Mafia in Philadelphia since he got a prison about 12 years ago moved to Florida. He's now entering the, you know social media influence or space so You can you can make a direct Line from Joey Marlino whether or not he's the boss or not I I personally believe he is that's what I've reported But he's not he's not a day-to-day caretaker of the family like he once was he's a boss You know from a distance and doesn't really have any day-to-day say of what's going on there Just to clarify that but uh, you know hit He grew up around Nikki Scarfo his dad Salvatore Chuck Marlino was Nikki's best friend Spend his whole life or his whole early life at at Nikki and his dad's side learning when it meant to be a powerful leader of organized crime and someone that Ruled over lots of territory and had a lot of People that were you know subordinates and and how to Structure that not a lead how to deal with Problems that kind of I'm sure run the gamut. He was exposed to a lot of that stuff at a very young age But you know Nikki Scarfo just to kind of go back to our Our focus here, you know grew up what was born in in Brooklyn moved to South Philly when he was about 11 or 12 years old and Was an amateur boxer I Think he worked in the blueberry fields for a while in Hamilton, New Jersey New Jersey is known for blueberries by the way. I don't know if people knew that They're like a famous nationwide famous place for their blueberries and then was was ushered into the Philadelphia mafia by his uncles the piccolo brothers who all went by the nickname buck Tony buck Nikki buck Mikey buck and He got he got his button in the 1950s and By the 60s he is Living in Atlantic City There's a lot of speculation on how he ended up there a lot of Conjecture that he was exiled after a fight that he had where he killed him killed a fellow diner at a The Oregon organ diner in South Philly fighting over a seat at a lunch counter, I believe Stab them with a fork stab them with a fan. Yeah, and it killed the guy. Yeah, and From my research and from from talking to people that were close to Nikki including Phil that that he wasn't the narrative that he was kicked out of Philadelphia and Sent to Atlantic City as pennants By Angelo Bruno who at that point was the godfather That's that's just not true Well, it wouldn't be what I mean, maybe it's not true and that's a pretty good source. I would say but it it's not Doesn't sound insane, right? I mean That wasn't Bruno style, right? I mean you could you could imagine that that's something that would aggravate Angelo Bruno, but also I thought that one of his soldiers just killed a guy over a in public over a seat but I think one of my one of my takeaways from my research ready mafia prison and sitting and interviewing Phil was that the image and reputation that Angelo Bruno had as the docile Don or this Peaceful, you know Arbiter of of Gangland conflict was a little bit of a misnomer as well. Yeah, I've heard I've heard that too that he was actually a Not to say he wasn't Overly violent sure way that his You know, we didn't successors were when I started central among them but he definitely wasn't Anti-violence and was somebody that was if circumstances Arrows was quick to order a murder. Yeah, that's that's why he had bought me yet. What if you buy? So, I don't I guess I would say that It was I don't think he would have lost sleep over that scarf will kill the guy But rather that it was so public. Yeah may have may have irritated, but I think it was more like There is infertile racket territory to be mined in Atlantic City Go mine it. Yeah, and what and that's what he did. I mean, he had pretty much control of that whole Region of Racketeering when gambling legalization Started to Happen in New Jersey and and all the casinos started to be built Yeah, he he was he had a foothold in there for the previous 12-15 years Well, yeah, I'm gonna add something about that but I want to ask you a question about genealogy here if you know So His uncles were always in Philadelphia Did he I mean how does he does they go from Brooklyn to Philadelphia because they already have pre-existing family in Philadelphia and so Because his father wasn't a Mafia guy, right? It was on his mother's side that he was connected to that world wasn't it through to the pickle was yeah, right? His dad was a wasn't necessarily a straight arrow. Okay. Oh, okay. I didn't yeah, I didn't know that Um But he wasn't he wasn't a heavier. No, he wasn't a maid guy. He was definitely more influenced by Nikki Buck and Tony buck. Okay, who would become Part of it was because of how You know how fate Took their nephew and ascended him to the to the throne but you know the both piccolo brothers were Or in terms of Tony buck and Nikki buck were very relevant that in Philadelphia mob affairs all the way through the late 1980s and With with Tony buck, you know, he was at one point. He was acting boss and then he became you know, possibly airy To John stamp In the 90s, so I'll just say that these were guys that weren't just You know ordinary one-of-the-mill right buttons these were guys that Nikki the Nikki piccolo became Little Nikki's close to airy and then Tony piccolo Tony buck became his acting boss and eventually Nikki's car foes successor John our immediate successor Don stamp is incident What about the you tell me if this is part of the urban legend, but there's also this story that A maid guy wanted Nikki scar foe to date his daughter and Nikki scar foe said so it's kind of like a rude dismissal of that idea And that this I wanted to marry his daughter. It was Joe right now. Okay. Yeah, tell tell that and That's a true that that really went down. Yeah, that that did happen. Okay, Bruno's close to the airy Joe Rignata they call him Joe the boss and Yeah, Joe Rignata wanted to marry one of his daughters off to Nikki scarfo and Nikki wasn't having it He called it rug net as the daughter's ugly and that was very offensive to Joe Rignata and Honestly, I think that proof that that was a bigger reason for him getting out of Billy then then what happened with the at the Oregon diner and his uncles had to intercede right and yeah did Kind of calm things down. Yeah And and and Lou Bruno might not have loved Nikki, but he valued Nikki And he knew he was a valuable asset So is my time is my time frame right here the chronology That When he goes to Atlantic City, that's actually before legalized gambling Yeah, that's one reason why it's considered exile is there actually wasn't a lot of action at that point Other than maybe shaking down local drug dealers some extort extorting bars and restaurants Well construct and construction companies. What's the scarf ink? Which was he in concrete pouring which he again? He had a foothold in these in these Businesses in these trades including, you know union infiltration But before casino legalization was even you know on the table even in discussion Right so once once it is announced that it that that legalized gambling is going to happen or it's in likelihood going to pass Scarfo ironically if you if it was an exile He's in the right place at the right time Right because he's he actually gets in on the construction of those all the casinos, right? Like good luck competing with scarf ink Right like like literally like they they might kill you and that and and that's So they control the construction of the point of the concrete for all you know for the renovation of Las Vegas and this Remodeling rebranding you see not not Vegas. I'm sorry. I apologize that city. I knew what you meant wait and They poured all the concrete and then they control all the the trades With the unions and then they control all of the workers with the the bartenders and casino workers union So he's in on the ground floor in terms of laying the cement for for the casinos but but he's also Infiltrated the unions so right place at the right time. It's very lucrative for scarf. Oh legal and then and then Bruno Also has Ralph Natale who will play a role later on as well as his union troubleshooter and hitman and That also helped quite a bit, you know, there's a lot to to knock Ralph about later on in his mob career as as a quasi boss But it's definitely true that Ralph was on the front lines of getting everything In line in terms of the unions for what eventually became Atlantic City and and he Murdered people to to keep everybody in line union wise Joey McGrill Who was a Irish mob guy fighting over one of the unions in the early 70s? and So they were all kind of working together Bruno Natale scarf oh Long-drawn, Moderna was was very close to Bruno at that time even though he wasn't made but I Think the the biggest where does he get made? I don't want to digress too much. He gets made under test or a scarf Oh, he gets made under He was either the first making ceremony that tested did okay the first making ceremony that scarf oh did okay Whatever started. Yeah, go ahead. Keep keep going. Sorry didn't run. No, it's okay So you have a situation where I think you can trace Joe Rugnetta's death the the conciliary who scarf oh had a issue with because he wouldn't marry his daughter The decision by Angela Bruno to name Tony bananas cap and egg row as conciliary this was in the early 70s proved a fatal mistake and with cap and egg row as the Concealery he was out of New Jersey and he was able to kind of Circle the horses in terms of rallying support against Bruno and this was kind of I think that's a big strategic misstep By Angela Bruno in the early 70s when he replaced Rugnetta with Tony cap and egg row and this all kind of the dominoes fall in place that eventually Nikki scarf was able to Take over. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. Let's go backwards for a second. Yeah I want to talk about Atlantic City too, but go ahead. Yeah, but fill the in that he who eventually becomes the Mafia Prince and is Nikki's sisters son His father leaves the picture when he's barely out of diapers and Phil's mother moves her and Phil in with Nikki scarf oh and Nikki and his sister's mother of Phil's Grandma in Atlantic City and and Nikki scarf oh raises Philly and netty more as a son than as a net Right and There's one of the anecdotes in the book that when Phil's eight years old Nikki uses him as a As a roost in some ways or as us as a shield to alleviate any suspicions that he's Got a dead body in his trunk He's got his eight-year-old nephew with him in the front seat of the car in the middle of the night After he kills the guy he goes home and wakes up Phil puts him in the car to drive to where they're gonna bury the body Because he feels like if a cop First it's thinking about pulling over he probably won't because he sees the kid in the car and if he does I can just say I'm out with my son, you know taking a leisurely late night Drive and I mean that's that's the kind of a lens into the sociopath be That is Nikki scarf oh and when he passed on to his nephew again who we kind of raises as a son or a surrogate son Yeah, I want to Address that later on to especially that family dynamic with his own with his actual sons Not not like his surrogate son Phil, but this is this is all happening in the 50s and 60s at Atlantic City Doesn't get gambling legalized until 76. I don't think the first Casino opens until like 78 Just to give you an understanding of the right and so that's something I want to talk about the economics of Atlantic City again being in the right place at the right time so the real money is in the Unions and and the the concrete rate the construction rackets However, there are a number of other lucrative opportunities in this environment Obviously loan sharking think of all the gamblers there that That need money, right? That's gonna going to be lucrative for scarf on his operation you can now there's going to be more bars and restaurants than before so you can shake them down and Casinos what goes along with with casinos other than loan sharking people like to do dope Yeah, you guys sample you guys sample like the game right and people like and women and women so and so There's a number of lucrative street rackets as well So scarf was an interesting guy at this point because he has his hands in both sides of racketeering both the construction Unions and then but also what we think of more of the street stuff shaking people down Shaking dope dealers down and he's at a comfortable distance Yeah, it kind of there's a semi parallel to Tony spolato in Chicago when he goes out to Vegas I think Nikki scarf. Oh is the version of that story when it all goes, right until it doesn't Spolato was never able to climb the ladder to become boss even though he wanted to And and he was Too far away, you know Nikki was far enough away to have a little bit of a buffer between him and Philly, but spolato was Thousand miles away on the West Coast and went to his head But you know, Nikki played that same role in a much smarter More calculated deliberate way for somebody that was known as a cowboy just like spolato Right and and something I want to something else I want to raise here which relates to The situation in Atlantic City is that the political environment That's going on in this Bruno crime family so Scarfo was holding it down in Atlantic City, but you know, who else is trying to get in on Atlantic City? Yeah, the Gambino's But especially the Gambino's because they have a close relationship with Angelo Bruno and also you can tie it to Sicily as well because the Cherry Hill Gambino's were tied into Palermo too and and the mafia in Sicily also Was excited at this possibility of getting in on the action in Atlantic City There's a there's a big point that needs to be immediately stated for the audience. Yeah Part of so the first part of Angelo Bruno's downfall in my opinion in in his kind of increasing increasingly alienated himself and miscalculating Policy and promotion So first is is replacing Joe Rugnetto with Tony bananas cap and egg row but Second and kind of part and parcel of that and then also a tie you can make to Nikki's car for an Atlantic City Tony bananas in Newark Anil Bruno Didn't want to jump headfirst into Atlantic City legalized gambling, right? He was happy with what was going on before legalized gambling he almost saw it as a headache and opposed to a huge potential moneymaker so that attitude Didn't sit well with Nikki Scarfo Tony cap and egg row or the guys in New York Because at the same time He didn't want those guys coming in either So he was almost saying leave it alone. Let it be legitimate Yeah, and that's not going to go over well with yeah guys who are gangsters for a living so a lot of what was going on in terms of Priming the ground I would say for what eventually became this huge boom town in the 80s of Legalized casino gambling in Atlantic City Angel Bruno was resistant to a lot of it Right and but he does tell the Gambino's he has no problem with the Cherry Hill Gambino's if they're if they're if they Are going to push the issue then he's not going to stop them So they're trying to actually get in on one of the casinos. They're blocked But they own a disco tech back then. This is the late 70s at disco tech They're prolific drug traffickers, but they also own a number of restaurants and clubs and pizzerias in Cherry Hill New Jersey, which is South Jersey, which just like Atlantic City is supposed to be Bruno territory and my understanding is Bruno was getting a cut of the drug Profits, but for the most part left the Cherry Hill Gambino's alone and To your point a lot of the rank and file are really getting annoyed with Bruno's laissez-faire attitude about letting the zips and the Gambino's come in Trying to get a piece of Atlantic City Setting up shop all over the place And with the drug thing especially with the drug thing when Bruno at least Superficial and at a superficial level says he doesn't want his guys dealing dope, which we know is bullshit because long John Was was bringing him in a lot of a lot of dope money Lot of money and he was he was taking the dope money tribute from the Cherry Hill guy and for the Black Mafia Family going the Black Mafia's money. I'm sorry the Philly Black Mafia Philadelphia Black Mafia That money was coming through long John Who was the point man for the the blacks the bikers the Irish? I mean, he was very very instrumental for a guy that wasn't made at that point, right? So there's there's some hypocrisy on Bruno's part. So there is this growing frustration with his leadership style So the reason why we're spending you know unpacking this and spending so much time on this is Bruno's gonna get killed I think our audience probably knows that He's gonna get whacked and and these are the events leading up to it Which eventually is gonna lead to this point where scar foes on top But you want to break down some of the machinations where they actually decide to take out Bruno and also what that has to do with scar foe. Yeah, so scar foe and his so his two best friends are Salvatore Chuckie Marlino who's joined Marlino's dad's and then fill the chicken man test up and Testa and Scarfo were made Chuckie Marlino was not test up became Bruno's underboss and Even though Scarfo and testa were not Fans or actually even huge supporters of Bruno They didn't have the appetite to Join a coup And they weren't looking to murder him That's not to be said. There were not other people in that same orbit that felt differently and were very eager to like I said before you know circle the horses and and rally support for a mutiny and Tony bananas was able to get Frank the barracudas and don't and Johnny Johnny keys Simone two of the most powerful cobbles at that point in The crime family to Join his mutiny He goes and makes a deal with the Genovese crime family or thinks he makes a deal Yeah, it's fine family right and part of that deal has to do with cutting them in on Atlantic City He didn't realize he was being played That funds Frank Thierry Was basically lying in about support from the commission that he thought that he had he thought he had it green lit he didn't but 1980 March 1980 It's you know all the tees have been crossed and the eyes have been dotted and It's a full go they're gonna kill they're gonna kill the king and They bring in a Gambino Affiliate who had become a Philly mob soldier John Stampa who was very you know his his Relevance in his presence in Philadelphia came from the fact that when he came over from Sicily the Gambino's placed him with Bruno But it in reality he was kind of like a double agent and they used him Normally Long John, Moderna would be a driver For Angelo Bruno, but Long John couldn't fulfill that job on the night of Bruno's murder They put Stampa in there knowing that Stampa is a part of the plot Word on the street, and I believe this is that Tony bananas was Crazy enough to want to pull the trigger himself That he was not gonna outsource This this assassination that he was gonna actually be the one that killed Angelo Bruno and Shotgun was delivered Went from Philly to New to Newark And caponegro was delivered to caponegro and then caponegro traveled to South Philly and Bruno had a had a dinner Came home was being driven by Stampa Stampa on Puts the window down on the Passengers seat of the car that that he's driving Bruno home from there sit in front of Bruno's house Bruno goes to light up a cigarette and Tony bananas comes up behind him with a shotgun and blows his head off and There's that famous photo of him Sitting upright in the passenger seat half of his head gone and his mouth a gap a gate and One of the best anecdotes that I took away from my time with Philly and Eddie was when he's talking about I Said well, what was the reaction from your uncle and testa when all this goes down and he says well, they were shook because There was all of a sudden instability in a family that had always been so stable, but he said they weren't upset that Someone had the balls to take Bruno out. They and Nikki I guess was saying as the as the The image was being flashed on the television set He said him and testa would were and these were the in the hours and the days afterwards when they would have a television on They would say to each other like that. It's it's appropriate that Bruno died with his mouth open because he was trying to take food off of everybody's plate and put it in his mouth But he was always taking taking taking So I know I know testa really felt That he had lost all of his Juice as underboss that even though he was supposed to be the number two in the crime family Bruno was alienated him from decision-making Alienated him from his troops and I know that Testa was not happy with with the way that Bruno was leading the family there But he wasn't involved in in the conspiracy to murder, but I think it's an interesting point to make that The he was not this beloved Don where the scarf on testa were going to avenge like Luca Brazzi like I'm going to avenge Don Vito, right? Like a Year later though that is what happened. Well, right, right, but but but there But I think they had different motives for that for their own like yeah established themselves Let me ask you something What do you think about the The idea that stamp wasn't In on it that they impossible impossible. Yeah And honestly, I think it played a role in him getting tapped to be boss later on I don't think it hurt him. I think it might have actually helped him Because we got he doesn't have to get out of dodge at first Right, he had to leave boom say when he comes back he comes back and is installed as the boss by New York It wasn't the people in Philly that were bringing him back and see and we want we want you to be our boss Right I'm I've also heard that Stamford was already made insist. Yeah over for the other side. Yeah on the other side. So That that complicated issues too and then brutal wasn't making people he was upsetting a lot of his coppers and wanted to bring guys in to help the greater good in terms of bottom line and Wasn't able to do that. He was Surrounding himself with a with a click of people that were also kind of They were it was like the cool kids click Where Guys that were around Bruno got certain treatment that other guys didn't get and it didn't matter like it Like we're saying with long done. It didn't matter. He didn't have a button, but he was able to act Above a lot, I mean like he was able to do things that nobody else was able to do Because he had Bruno's ear, right and that kind of behavior alienated a lot of people This didn't have a ton of supporters this Machiavelli and And Carl, let me just point out Carlo Gambino dying I think plays a role in it if Gambino's alive and you wouldn't have allowed that it wouldn't have had I don't think so either but if Stamford is part of the conspiracy then that tells me that the The zips and the Gambino's must have I Don't think he would go rogue and just do that because Because I think they were well aware Wow and the and the Genovese like so there's this Machiavelli and like we're gonna wink wink tell you It's okay to kill the boss, but then when the shit hits the fan We're going to be like, I don't know what you're talking. I don't know. I didn't tell you to do that shit Yeah and I think also that Carmine Galante's assassination less than a year before that Played a minor role just in power in the insurgents like hey look This just happened in New York. They took out a boss Carlo Gambino's longer there We can take out a boss. It can be no care if it's Carl You know if he was close to Carl Gambino five years ago when when Carla was still alive or four years ago Carl was still alive. I Hate to digress but we you know we have these conversations and interesting things pop in my head Scott's also an authority on the toko's a really family Is it really always had pretty good tie pretty good relationship with Bruno? He's already dead by by 81. Well, yeah, did you ever get a sense what the Detroit guys thought about that? I'll tell you what I'll tell you what's really interesting. That's eight and eighty or an eight Yeah, I'm eighty the the feds had followed Jack toko To a meeting with Bruno. I think it was two or three weeks before Bruno. Wow, no shit. Wow Jack toko took I believe Jimmy Quasarano and one of the Carado brothers and They did an East Coast Godfather swing Where they spent like a couple weeks They started in Florida and then went to New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts and went and and in the parts of Pennsylvania and Met with all the bosses that Jack needed to be introduced to him Jimmy Jimmy Q was going to do the the introductions and I know that the meeting that he had with Bruno was in February of 80 and Bruno was killed in you know, third Middle of March end of March So The Detroit family was very close to Bruno I'm sure they weren't thrilled With what happened there? I don't I don't it's interesting for you know During my research in these kinds of situations. I find that there could be a couple of different approaches One would be this sort of like oh shit. We like that dude. We had good relationships with that dude This is fucked up. What are going to be the repercussions? Could this destabilize things in our own Bergata and then and then the other view you would you might encounter from some of these Guys's who gives a fuck what? You know the sort of like in different like what do I give a fuck about? Well, you didn't you didn't really hear about any you heard a lot of connections between Bruno in Zerli toko You never you didn't really hear about anything between Nikki Scarfo and Jack toko I mean they were polar opposites and the way no other families I would be surprised. Yeah, if that that were to happen the only different one of totally different styles One of the soldiers under Scarfo who ended up being a casualty of the Scarfo regime Pasquale Spurrito pat the cat When he was before he was a May guy when he was an associate under Bruno He had come to Detroit. There was some horse fixing going on and The Bruno family had a piece of it and pat the cat was Was their point man had come to Detroit and had met with Jack toko and those guys but That's the only connection that I can make between the Scarfo era and And the toko era and that didn't even happen During the scarf where it was in it was actually in the Bruno era when that meet-up happened, right? So back to the chronology. So New York Makes it known that we didn't sanction this so the conspirators are they're gonna get killed too brutally Brutally Kepa Negro his brother-in-law Freddy Salerno They were both killed together when they went to go Account for what happened in front of the Commission. Yes, and then The The New York families help out with They hit on John Simone Johnny keys the Gambino's do it. They assign it to Sammy the bull who talked about it in his book How they had to kind of wait wait for him in a van to see if they were going to actually kill him or not and Then he let him take his shoes off before they killed him as kind of a Gesture of respect and then Allegedly Chuckie Merlino and Joseph chicky chingalini kill Frank Cindone and And chicky chingalini had been Cindone's right-hand man And eventually took over his crew Chingalini had been made under chicky chingalini had been made under Bruno Chuckie Merlino wasn't made until Then the making ceremonies that started to occur in the aftermath of Bruno's death when Testa and Scarfo started making guys in a pretty steady clip. We had about 30 guys 40 guys come in 30 guys come in and about a two three four-year period. So Chicken man Testa who was the under boss is now the boss. He was the soto capo now. He's the boss and he appoints Scarfo as his conciliary Conciliary which is really interesting because Scarfo doesn't strike me as the kind of personality you want here Well, another miscalculation another miscalculation. He names Pete Cassella His under boss who a guy kind of like Stamford has a lot of support in New York New York, I think was pushing for Cassella to be the under boss instead of Scarfo It probably would have been better to have it reversed But within a year almost to the day Bruno's killed on March 21st 1980. I believe Testa was killed on the 18th or 19th of March 81 So it's almost exactly a year later and the you know history repeats itself. Cassella circles the wagons and drums up support for a coup from Mainly chicken arduchi. I know was was a capo that jumped on board with Cassella and They blow Phil Testa up Bruce Springsteen wrote a famous song about it called Atlantic City. They blew up the chicken man last night they blew up his house too and They put a nail bomb there hoping to That people suspected the the Roofers Union which goes back to some of the stuff we talked about right and But in reality it was it was Cassella and his brother and and chicken arduchi and a guy Who worked for them named Rocco Maranucci Who was the guy that actually I think planted the bomb and detonated it Was that just a power grab were they just taking advantage of the destabilization? Yeah, they did they not I don't think they did I don't think they disliked that stuff It wasn't one of the power. Yeah Like we're gonna take advantage of the destabilization and and and then so and they didn't have they didn't have the Proper sign off from New York either. So when they get called to account for it Cassella is protected by New York. They won't let Scarfo kill him They tell him and his brother to to get out of town and you're exiled down to Florida. You can never come back to Philadelphia but Maranucci and Narducci their mark for death and The contract for both of those guys go to chicken man test his son Who also could have been called the Mafia Prince? Salvi testa who was really probably in real time. He was more the Mafia Prince than than Phil was Yeah, I would agree with that But Salvi testa is is given the contracts and Joyously carry he's enthusiastic about it. Yeah, then his father he wanted When they killed Maranucci, they put firecrackers in his mouth as a Sign that he was killed because he played a role and in blowing up They'll test it and then with with chicken Narducci Ted of Salvi testa told people I wanted to personally see his eyes when I killed him and that It was very very personal and they got him coming out of court He was on trial with a lot of the Scarfo guys including chicky chankalini who allegedly tipped off Salvi when they all got out of court that day and Chicky was was driving home and then Salvi met him when he was pulling up in front of his Look Salvi met him in the street and unloaded his clip into him and said I wanted to see the whites of his eyes I wanted him to know that I was the one that was that was killing him That's that's that's some pretty heavy stuff man, and and it just got more Shakespearean and more More bloodlusts and more dysfunction as the 80s went on and again It it was a 180 from where that family was from, you know, the 50s to 1980 where you didn't have any Real Chinks in the armor in terms of The integrity of the structure you didn't have the internal conflict I mean Bruno would kill whack people out, but you didn't have the internal conflict So my understanding you correct me if I'm wrong my understanding is at this point Scarfo Gets permission from the or the commission basically anoints Scarfo. Okay, you're the boss now You're in charge of Philadelphia, especially the Genovese. I think they were he was particularly close to them close with Bobby Manna, yeah more more so than the other four families if I'm not mistaken that's where his power came from and Kasella and some other guys were trying to Declare themselves boss in the wake of this and Scarfo had to go I think at least two meetings he had to go to New York to clear things up and Kasella was coming to the guys and Philly saying that the guys in New York are saying x y and z and Nikki Scarfo was like, I'm not gonna take your word for it. I'm gonna go meet with these people myself And he found out that's not what they were saying And he wasn't allowed to kill Kasella, but which I still find that the fact that Stampa and Kasella were involved in these huge Unsanctioned mobist mob assassinations and they were both able to walk away from it just because they were um, you know They had co-signage from from the five families Yeah, I want to also take a moment here. We were the Stampa I was having a conversation about the Stampa whether he was implicated or not with our friends over at the Mob archeologist would check out their channel on YouTube if you get a chance They they put out an episode on Philadelphia a while back that I know is pretty popular so Shout out to them. They're good friends of ours. And actually we're gonna plan more crossover episodes with them I know they're not releasing content as frequently as they would like they're busy with other things But anyhow back to the the chronology. So what's interesting here is okay. Scarfo is Anointed the boss and you would think okay. Well, finally, there's going to be some stability here Right, but it's anything. It's anything but right anything but stable under Scarfo. So then right when start when Scarfo takes power He has resistance from kind of a family within the family or a very powerful crew Harry the hunchback wikabee Went all the way back You know, he was a real whole time. Yeah, it's almost with the turn of the century You got his button when he was like 17 or 18 and Was allowed to kind of do his own thing under Bruno as long as he sent a Christmas package but Bruno took a real hands-off approach with him and he like I said he kind of created his own family within a family and He was one of the people that wanted to be boss in the aftermath of both Bruno and Tested assassinations and when that wasn't a possibility Him and Nicky Scarfo knew each other very well. I mean it This wasn't like Yeah, this wasn't like enemies from a distance, you know, like Marlowe Stanfield and Avon Barthasdale Yeah, these are guys that had been with each other for 30 years at that point 30 40 years in terms of Working together and he was actually born and Harry could be damn looking at his FBN file right now He was actually born in Sicily. I didn't if I didn't know that I can't remember any that are not if I forgot but and it says his associates Pete Cassella Joe Rugnetta Among others so, you know, this is from like the 1950s. Just to give you an idea of how far he went back He was born in 1909 so And if he was made at 17 He was made Yeah, but the reason why I'm you know overemphasizing his his age and he he's born in Sicily is That gives you some context for his attitude of like I don't need to recognize Scarfo. Yeah, the boss I'm a fucking og around he looked like Santa Claus He was about a foot two with this big white beard and crazy white hair but had a lot of loyalists and was fearless and Refused to come under Scarfo so Scarfo ordered him and his whole crew You know order their murders and gave the contract to Salvi test that will became You know his his number one kind of general on the street to fight these wars And Salvi got wounded in that they tried right they try to kill him They tried it the facts and try to take out Salvi so between like 82 and 83 There's this internal blood feud war going on between Harry Riccobini and his brothers and and their faction and then you know the Scarfo regime with with Salvi Testa leading that That that charge to eliminate the entire Riccobini faction Yeah, so they they actually shoot back right they try to take out some of Scarfos guys Well, they kill Frank Monty. They kill Frank Monty. I thought they took out one of one is at least one of took out They took out Scarfos conciliary Okay, right, which was a big big way for them Frank Monty, and then he replaces He replaced Frank Monty with his uncle with his uncle Nikki Buck a piccolo as as his consularia at that point, but It was it was quite intense in 82-83 And it ends not because the not because Scarfo gets a decisive victory Doesn't it end because Riccobini and some of his guys go to end up going? Yeah, it was a prison Riccobini ends up surviving the number of hits one inside of a phone booth when John Salvatore grande who they all called Wayne which was short for John Wayne because he was a cowboy or waney caught Riccobini in a phone booth and unloaded an automatic weapon into him and didn't Didn't kill him. So yeah, he goes to jail and then Scarfo has to go to jail and serve about a year on a gun case Make when they arrest him they found a Or when they I don't remember exactly where that gun case came from But he had to go do I know it was on some type of search and he had to go to Texas to go do the 1414 months and Chucky Marlino You know holds down the ship crazy fill the Annetti his nephew holds down the ship We were talking off air, you know Phil did not like the nickname crazy Phil the media gave it to him some radio Reporter and he was used to complain about it a lot and his uncle would Would chat size in for complaining and say, well, are you out of your mind? Yeah, people would pay for a nickname like that. He's a you should embrace it. You should love it people call me little Nicky I hate that Nick. I wish I was I wish I was Crazy That was a that was a fun thing in your book. So let me ask you about the chronology here It's really but it really the nickname really belies Who though was though? I mean Phil was not a you know hair trigger temper or Impulsive or erratic, you know, Tony bananas caponegro was and that's why he was Well, that's one of the things that you can that that you can you know pull from from your text is that that Phil this is part of the anxiety and the stress on Phil is because he is in a lot of ways a contrast Not to say he wasn't a person he would trifle with he was a stone cold gangster, too But he didn't he wasn't the sort of cowboy that his uncle was and you can play didn't have blood loss He didn't have he didn't have blood loss. He didn't he didn't get off on it. Nicky got off on it Well, let's let's talk about so when this wins the Speak because this is a you know something that is a really striking example the Falcone murder when is that is that that's before Bruno That's 79. Okay, so well, it's a little bit out of chronology But you want to talk because that's one of the most striking examples of scar foes pathology. Yeah, he decided that this acquaintance of theirs Vincent Falcone worked in the construction business with them. I think he Was involved in some some small rackets wasn't a big gangster, but definitely wasn't a civilian either and he was vocal in his Disliked of Nikki's car foe. He was running around town telling everyone that a scarf ink did shoddy work and And Nikki decided to kill him and told his nephew Phil Told Joey Merlino's uncle Chuckie Merlino's brother. Yogi Merlino and then a civilian In in a guy named Joe Solerno and then again this this demonstrates the way that These guys think and in some ways I'm surprised that Well, let's just they wanted Solerno there because in their mind it would lower Vince Falcone's Yeah, they wouldn't kill him in front of a civilian in front of a civilian, right? In some ways Joe Solerno was lucky didn't just kill him right after they killed Falcone. Yeah, they let him live and That's how they got caught up You know facing first-degree homicide charges. They tried to kill his dad. Yeah to shut him up to shut him up They shot his dad in the head his dad survived, but um It's see that seems like a wasn't the best move in the world, but uh, they kill Oh Falcone at Nicky Scarfo's place and Leonetti Put two in the back of his head when you when you offered to go buy get him a drink in the kitchen and Nicky was so high from the murder that he said I wish I could bring him back to life and kill him again kill him again and then when they When they sent Some of the guys that were involved in the conspiracy out to go get Equipment to bury the body They came back and Nicky was in the living room Like drunk out of his mind like celebrating These are the football game on on on television the body's sprawled out on the carpet Nikki's Downing fits a vodka and cut his sark and and kind of Literally dancing on Skye's corpse. It was it's it's very Visceral and I think it it demonstrates perfectly how unhinged and Lethal and Give some psychopathic Nicky Scarfo. Well another dramatic murder. I want to talk about and you you've explained the chronology We we've talked about the this the civil war with the Riccobini faction, what about when Scarfo makes this decision to Take out the Greek There was a Greek mobster Crew Greek mobsters to kill they killed two of them and this is back to the same thing of like Scarfo says there's a new sheriff in town to use a cliche whereas Bruno was very laissez-faire with Ricco Beanie the Terry Hill Gambino's black mafia Greeks Scarfo says the the pagans. It's all my scarf Everyone has to Reminds you of the king of New York scene where we're just vlogs is I don't if a nickel bag is sold if You know any kind of bet is made Christmas tribute bullshit doesn't fly with me. I don't want once a year. I want once a month Right, right. And so the the Greeks, you know, just like Riccobini, right? Are like We're not gonna do it. Yeah, so the wind is that is that before the Riccobini or was it simultaneous around the same time same time? Okay 80 80 283, okay and Then you had the situation with Salvi, which was really the beginning of the end It started off as like we're gonna kill I mean in terms of the Nikki scarf over Jean we're gonna kill people responsible for Phil test of assassination and That quickly became We're gonna kill anybody that we have any issue with at any time, right? And it started to the bodies were piling up. I mean you went from an era where you probably had a half-dozen mob murders in Philadelphia to a Two-year period or three-year period where you two dozen from a half a dozen Yeah, so walk us through the the the murder of Boris was that his name Stevie Boris the Greek guy Yeah, you know what I don't off the top of my head. I don't have the the stuff in front of me at the specifics of it But this is like they shoot that should have killing him at the restaurant And they caught him at the restaurant Raymond Longjard, Moderano Allegedly set him up. He was there with his they were all there with their wives Two mass gunmen who nobody's ever been charged with with those homicides Boris's I believe was the the the last one and I think that I think you kind of Petros Harry Petros was the first one It says I'm just this is take care for what it is. This is wiki My students would be mortified. I yell at my students. Don't site wiki and here I am May 27th 1981 that's 81. That's that's at least that's what wiki says. So that's right after that's you know two months after Two months after test is murdered For not having my dates. Yeah more in order here. No, I guess I didn't realize that we were gonna I think we were gonna deep dive and I should have been more prepared. I well I you know, I like to think of this as a conversation and You know, I I view my role in this as this is field research. I like to learn from Scott I like to learn from the guests that we have on we interview people in the underworld people in law enforcement Bestselling authors other scholars and I I viewed as field research. I like to look I like to learn from from from people I've never claimed that I can come on this podcast and and be a fucking computer and I'm saying this because You know, there's there was comments about our Westies episode. I got the I forgotty thing I was wrong about that that had that had nothing that that was a different case I was connecting it to the to the Irish The Irish guy. It was a different case and you know, so people are piling on the comments. I don't fucking know man I'm not a fucking walking I'm a theoretical criminologist. So if we don't get all the fucking dates right like get over it watch another show if that if that bothers you, but I Don't think that's what we're here for if Sometimes Scott knows that shit more than I do and he gets it right most of the time with the dates But if if sometimes either neither one of us know like just get over it, I would say but the one thing I I'll point out with the one thing one of the things I'll point out about Stevie Boris and and we're not gonna get into a whole thing about what was going on in the 2000s, but that Stevie Boris murder ended up with the murder of a woman named Jeanette Currow Who was related? Uh to a man who would eventually become conciliary of The Philadelphia mob in Joe Crutch Joe Crutch Currow I don't think that helped Raymond long term on Arana when he came out of prison in the 2000s and with button heads with Uncle Joel the Gamby That that Uncle Joel the Gamby's top advisor already has an issue With long John from the way that that all went down 30 years before well, I'm glad It was like 20 years I'm glad you brought that up because it does I think one of the reasons why I think it's interesting to talk about Nikki's car phone his reign rise and fall is Because the ramifications ripple through the years. It doesn't it doesn't end when he is Convicted in Nicky starts wanting to kill all of his own guys. These weren't enemies of his yeah He's weren't like rival factions like the rickabeenies or even the Greeks. Well, let's let's so let's then let's jump to the Salvi Testa Situation because that's another striking example of the bloodlust and a miscalculation and something that I really think It's the turning it was the turning point the turning point Yeah, so that's when it's the beginning of the end He's a loyalist Selvi test as a Loyalist too rock solid as you could come in terms of his loyalty to Nikki Nikki was His father's best friend. He had promised they had promised each other if either one of them dies that they would look after That still tested would look would look after Philly and Eddie and and Nikki's biological kids and that Nikki Would be responsible for looking after Salvi and and Nikki always looked at Salvi as a son in the same way that he looked at Philly and Eddie But Philly and Eddie wasn't getting the press At that time that Salvi was Phil was not a nightclub guy. He was not a flashy guy He wasn't a guy that was If he had to do mafia business he did it and then he went home a Salvi test there was a Was a good time Charlie type The son of Corleone like I was the mafia. He was you're right. He was the mafia prince of Philadelphia at that time. Yeah And that's a great picture. Thank you, Benny. That's him and his dad chicken. Yeah, that's a great salvi salvi was You know out of central casting of what you would want in a up-and-coming Crime boss he had charisma. He was smarter. He was fearless. He was smart He was rough in a rugged rugged rugged good looks His dad was was far from a matinee idol Yeah, but but Salvi was actually a very handsome handsome man that that the lady's loved and like I said, he wasn't just on the nightclub scene in Philly he'd traveled to New York and So the tabloid started to write about him People in Philly, you know gravitated towards him and and Nicky's gone from from both Atlantic City and and South Philly for over a year and he starts to get insecure and At this point Salvi's engaged to be married to Chuckie Marlino's daughter Joey Marlino's sister and I Think within this Drama The decision by Salvi to break off that engagement like a week or two before the wedding Was another key event that laid the groundwork for For his demise and and help Nicky parlay this insecurity Into getting people behind this notion that they had to kill Salvi because Salvi was getting Too ambitious, which wasn't true. I mean from everyone I thought Salvi had no Yeah, no desire to move Nicky out and take over He was very happy being Nicky's junkyard dog And being his muscle and being a capo But Nicky was convinced that that he was plotting against him Think a lot of it was paranoia and Nicky was drinking a lot at this at this point What do you make of the allegations that Salvi did have some people on the street that didn't like even though He was for the most part very popular that there were some people who didn't like him who were whispering and sort of Scarful already had this pre-existing Parallel point well taken but they but they were sort of adding fuel to the fire like well They there was you know a jealousy factor and yeah, good point. We want his racquets back. Yeah. Yeah, right a lot of racquets It's also a racquet. So there were some people kind of feeding into scarf was already Paranoid and so Scarfo comes home. I believe it's March of 84 and All the news television news stations and failure there to meet him uh filianetti and Salvi and I believe the Marlino brothers Joey's dad and uncle Travel to Texas to pick him up They spend the night at a hotel after he gets released in Texas. They party then they come home the plane lands at The Philadelphia airport and they're met by the cameras and they get them It's not a perp walk because they want to rest it but they get him coming off the plane all the way till they get into the limo to Leaves it's cool for it and It's eerie to think that Six months from then This guy that's carrying Nikki's bagging opening the door for Nikki, you know, it's raining. He has the umbrella The guy that was as close to him as a son could be you're looking at this And you can see it you can see Salvi and it's not like there's no animosity in Salvi's on Salvi's Expressions that he's getting Nikki's door or carrying Nikki's luggage. It's he's doing it Obsensibly it looks like you're doing it because he wants to do it because he's why I think so he wants to show this figure right so um and That quickly Devolves like again like what I said about how something happened within You know Jack Tocco met with Angela Bruno in February and within a couple weeks Bruno's dead within a couple weeks of that footage the marriage or the wedding is called off and Chuckie Marlino was very offended They had put a lot of money Into this wedding it was gonna be it was like a royal wedding you were marrying the two most powerful you were marrying a Groom and a bride from the two most powerful families in the Philadelphia mafia. They were both good-looking They were both well-spoken. They represented very well like a Prince William and Kate Middleton type They had even gotten I believe they had booked Stevie Wonder to perform So and this was they were rolling out the red carpet so not only did Chuckie lose money on The money he put out for the wedding He he took it as a slap in the face like my daughter's not good enough for you, right? And Salvi was in love with his girlfriend Who wasn't Maria Marlino and Scarful used Chuckie Marlino's embarrassment and anger as the an an entry point to To get the support that he felt like he needed to order and when I say the support I mean is under boss Who said yes, I'm okay with it. You can kill my who was gonna be my future son of Yeah, so I actually gave him a kiss of death Right. There was actually a some type of wake or wedding in the summer of 84 where Dr. Marlino You know gave Salvi a big kiss on the lips So we know that Scarful is giving the order but but then how does it go down where they you know, they get Well, they stalked us. They stalk him Salvi for for months, you know, and Salvi if correct me if I'm wrong Doesn't he have he has a sense at this point that things are soured, right? Yeah, that's why he's laid her shoulder. Yeah, he's laying low right and after, you know, a number of hit teams unsuccessfully stalk him Nikki Scarful calls his best friend in Joey punch And says you're the you're the one who's gonna do it because you're the only one that can they can get him out in the open And Joe punch had some issue where he needed Salvi to come and Speak for him in a sit-down and Ponder said to him, you know, I Need you to come to the It was a candy shop in South Philly For the sit-down and I mean Salvi was either on his way back or his way to playing tennis and He walked in the candy store and I believe it was Wayne Grandi John Wayne Grandi again who pulled the trigger Was Nikki the crowing on that one too, they were all in they were all in yeah, okay I mean, this was like a big conspiracy where you have a multiple people over a three or four month period planning this This this was a contract that was greenlit I believe in May and they didn't get him until September or October and what's interesting about this case study is a lot of the times these guys approach things in a very Cold way where like a it's just a call. It's just a part of doing business. He killed a guy I'm not gonna lose that sleep over it I'm not going to lose sleep over it But in this case my understanding is that that this this that wasn't the approach that nobody felt good about this Including the conspirators the guys that carried this out. Nobody felt good about it And I'll do it, but I can't pull the trigger. Yeah, so they didn't so they This was one of the few times where the guys were like, I think it was sort of I don't think they really were Hiding either that they that they didn't feel comfortable about that. Well, they weren't hiding it amongst each other No, no, but yeah, we're hiding it They were hiding it from scarf will they weren't hiding it amongst each other a month right that they didn't What happened right right? They knew if they challenged scarfo and said maybe this isn't a good idea He would just kill them next day. They just kill them. He just killed them because I'm telling you started to kill Everybody he was killing all his own guys and and he would Call meetings and he would get up in front of the meeting said I'm gonna get rid of all you guys I'm gonna have a hit team coming from New York murder every one of you and start from scratch Right that reminds you of the departed when Jack Nicholson's character says yeah, usually in these circumstances. I just kill my own crew my whole crew But but but there are there is a change in attitude, right you said the turning point because on the street Certainly, everyone's afraid of scarfo, but wouldn't you say that he does the morale is at an all-time low Yeah, well that starts it starts to go You know, it's a tipping point and everyone says well if he can turn on Salby he can kill Salby Will do it to any one of us right right um and he was trying to yeah But he does before there can be any kind of opposition to him I don't know if there would have been but it doesn't matter because Scarfo is going to start facing a lot of legal Trouble so we could kind of walk through that because this is really the beginning of the end well because he Tommy Dell flips Nikki Crow flips They find out that they got the mayor the Atlantic City in their pocket like Matthews And it's just a matter of time before The hammers gonna drop and indictments gonna be filed So the indictment came down in March of 87 Um Around 85 86 he demotes Chuckie Marlino and Promotes his nephew Phil in Eddie to be an underboss. I think just like with Sammy the bull It was Phil and Sammy were both under bosses, but they weren't under bosses really for that long When you consider, you know, what what they're kind of known for now, right like I Did Phil was only under boss for I think the two, you know less than two years But even before he was under boss. He was a he was like I would say a quote-unquote Kingsman capo Well, he's another one who was really upset about what happens to selvi. Yeah, but there's some debate about that And I want to clarify. I think there are people really I didn't make well Nikki Crow Has said in interviews as well as in blood and honor that Leonetti was was walking around telling people why aren't you killing this guy? I I can't I can't see his face anymore It I need you to kill this guy. I I I'm I'm So disturbed when I when I see him is what the Phil would tell people allegedly mm-hmm Phil denies that and You know, I say, you know, even if Phil says and I believe him bill says, you know, Salvi was like a brother to me, you know, right? That was the tipping point for Phil to if he can turn on on Salvi you can turn on me. Yes So do I think it's possible that Philly and Eddie made some comments during that summer Because of the stress and anxiety that he was under that might have been taken as Him wanting this murder to to take place sooner than later. Just get it over with But I don't think that necessarily means that that there was malice or ill will there, right? I think it was like I just want this whole thing done Because it's inevitable Yeah, he wasn't but I think you would also argue Just like with a lot of these, you know, a lot of people ask me kind of people who don't study the life Why would Salvi stay around your your mark for death? Why don't get on a plane go to otros reels? Mm-hmm, and it's just again. It's just not in these guys DNA to run and this is the life they chose and and They kind of I think come to terms with the fact that Their lives are probably not gonna end in a very pretty fashion well, and it's also kind of this chess game because You know, no one's going to come out right to his face and tell him, you know, they're gonna kill you So then there's always this kind of calculation like well What if what if it's not true and then how how does it look if I just if I just bail and then you know It's it's very complicated Social psychological yeah, and then with Joey pange. I know in the in the about three years between Salvi's murder and The indictment, you know, there were guys that would poke at Joey pange and whenever Joey pange would walk into a bar sometimes people would go into the jukebox and Play that's what friends are for You know, who's that hit song? Yeah. Yeah, that cheesy hit song of like Alton John and Stevie Wonder and Gladys Knight and They would play that as like as a knock Joey pange, you know, you shouldn't have done that. But if you're Joey pange, it's like, well, you know, I should have swallowed a bullet right Yeah, you're in a tough. You're in a tough situation. So back to the indictment so One thing I want to mention I know this is this is turning into a little bit of a longer episode, but that's okay I mean, I think scarf was worthy of that Part of it is that the pens landing shake down Right, which is if you're familiar with that area of Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia, South Jersey pens landing is this importantly commercial center there on the water and There was a big developer. I can't remember his name the guy that was But it but Nikki Crowe was the point was running point on it, right? And my understanding is that this this developer was a pretty much a straight guy like and so I think rouse. I think his name was rouse and they and the back to scar foes like hubris where like nobody is exempt from being shaken down Scarfo finds out about the project. It's lucrative. And so they say, okay, you know We're gonna extort this guy and get a piece of this. Well, he goes to the FBI and Does he wire up I can't remember I've read blood and I read your book, but I can't remember all the you know They flip Nikki Crowe Nikki Crowe and Tommy Dell flipped It's game set match and those guys were were integral integral cogs in in Nikki's Mod machine and Once they once they were debriefing. Yeah, it's like I said, it's it's checkmate but initially he's if I'm correct he was convicted of Extortion and then while he was serving his sentence That's when they they bring Rico charges and murder charges against him Which is to the point where we get where he's eventually a lifer So you want to want to talk about that because that gets into one when you're talking about a Nikki or you're talking about You know my Nikki scarf or Nikki car Monday, Nikki scarf. Oh like scarfo is convicted on extortion charges for the page lately thing Okay, but I'm not I'm not arguing your chronology, but the indictment that came down in March of 87 which was related to the traditional Rico case is what swept him off the street I'm not saying that the chronologically the chronological order of his case of his cases that went in front of a jury That he wasn't first convicted of an extortion case, but it's not like he was Indicted on extortion was off the streets was in jail and got indicted for a wreck. Oh, you're saying yes I don't know that I don't know that I'm saying in March of 87 Everybody got swept off the street from from the scarfo regime. Oh, so that was already out there that that big Rico In the Rico case dropped in March of 87 I guess I don't know what the chronology the chronological order is Other cases because I know you're right. There were other cases that either spawned off of or were before Yeah, but everybody was on the street until March of 87. Okay, okay With not Nikki and Tommy Dell Nikki car Monday and Tommy Dell were Where we're jammed up in the years before that which laid the foundation for the March 87 So when did the murder charges come into March of 87 March? Was the big Rico case with all the murder comes, okay? and then Where does Phil fit into this in terms of his decision to Quarters indicted those convicted at trial with Nikki in 89 and then a couple weeks after their Conviction at trial and Phil's looking at a life sentence he puts and Talk to us about I mean we want people to read your book and you can find out in more detail But if you can just give us the brief synopsis of his kind of thought process about about doing that Was it just I don't want to spend Pragmatic, okay, and I think that if if they hadn't been indicted in March of 87 and they would have Continued on with the with this the scarf a regime as it was into the summer of 87 I think Phil would have let a mutiny of his own And and murdered Nikki With the full support of everybody Yeah, so when when scarf is convicted and sent away and he's going to be a lifer He tries to hold on to the family from prison Tell talk to us about the politics. We put his he put his uncle Tony block a piccolo as the acting boss It lasted for about three years Not a ton of activity going on at that point you did have Joey Marlino and Mikey Cangolini Starting to plant the seeds for what would happen in the 90s But then Joey had to go away in 89 for his armored car and at that point Tony buck doesn't want the job Nikki's convicted and is and there's no chance that he's ever coming home. They needed a boss and New York Installs stand for me. It wasn't something where the Philly guys were like K. John. We really need you to come in save the day New York put him in there and he was able to get some guys that he had known from back in the 70s little Felix the Pacchino and some of those guys to jump behind him Alpajamas Vince my Pagano Shazzy Spratio and But but Nick by 90 Nikki's out of the boss's seat But Scarfo's son is a made guy in the family and as he is not he's not he's not made Well, he is made but he's not made in the Philadelphia. Oh, I thought he transferred to the Luccasus He never he never was never got he never got a button in Philadelphia and and then Nikki arranged for him to get made in the Luccasus So so he's not an option for Scarfo to hold on to power then. Yeah, he hadn't made him. Okay And then Joey Merlin tried to kill him. I like right right Halloween Halloween 89 Then he survived that attack and you know, like I said, Joey Merlino was very close to the Scarfos and then when his dad got demoted He was chased out of South Philly He felt like Scarfo wanted to kill him and his dad, I mean, yeah, I don't think that's a strategy there Yeah And do we have insight into Scarfo's attitude when he's I mean so he's in prison for a long time Well, all this is playing out and he doesn't take it very well. Does he that he's basically Persona nine right only in his mind. He was plotting to take the family back right for decades behind bars I mean, that's how out of touch and disconnected this guy was that he fought through his Connecting to Vicka Musso who was the imprisoned boss of the Luccasus and through his son Nicky Scarfo Jr. Who was I guess he was a couple at some point in the Luccasus? That they could fleece this bank Take the money that they fleece from the bank and then I guess pay off the commission or what's left of Right, I don't know if it was commission but pay off the New York Don's As a way to to push I guess at that point legambian Marlino out of power and install his Son I mean, it's crazy, but that was all made into a court file. That that was what the plan was Well, when his son got busted, I know they had reached out to Joey Chang Who would didn't stamp was under boss and wanted to bring him in in on above on the conspiracy? So, I mean you just had his hair brain scheme that that Nicky was Plotting and you know into his 80s and I'll also tell you I think I've said on this show before when he got The Mafia Prince book in his hand. He had a cardiac arrest. I mean literally yeah, it said him to the hospital when he looked at it I remember. Yeah, I remember hearing that from you. He didn't take that very well. And so when when does he die? I died Me night was it 2019? Yeah, wasn't that it wasn't that wasn't that long ago So what would you say to wrap up? What what is his legacy when we think about the Philadelphia? Crime family the Italian mafia in that area region, South Jersey, Philadelphia. What's Scarfo's legacy? What do you say? He died in 17 Six years six years. Yeah, what would you say his legacy is? um his his legacy is is a trail of bodies and and Just I I don't think you can debate that in the last half of the 20th century the most Lethal unhinged and Dangerous Mafia boss in America was Nikki Scarfo. I mean he He ordered over 30 murders in five years You know murder was his his The way to solve every problem and like I said, it wasn't it wasn't Business it was Business it was personal it was a way for him to Kind of get his jollies He fed off of it. Well, he was I think he's twit. He was very twisted and worked I think that's part of the legacy something we didn't mention is that he had another son who I believe Nikki wanted him to be like the heir apparent But he just didn't have the Constitution for it. He my understanding is he didn't want to be in that life You know and so he tries to kill himself and my understanding is that Nikki Scarfo did not Demonstrate a lot of empathy about that. He thought he was weak. She thought it was weak Yeah, which is really sad and I think well one thing I want to credit fell for I mean first of all I Can't think the guy enough for allowing me to write a book I'm sure yeah I'll be forever in debt that the Phil and His close friend Chris Graziano who was my co-author, you know, they made it possible for me that to have my kind of magnum opus of my career and to Allow you know kind of punched my ticket to report about Philly and write about Philly because it was really what sparked my entire interest in This whole genre was reading George Anastasia When I was in law school. Yeah, this was George's book that I held up earlier blood and honor This was the first Philly book I ever read. It's it's a classic I think Phil's legacy is is almost more important when you contextualize it Well, I maybe not as legacy, but where where where he is today is compared to where he was 35 years ago Phil is Perfectly happy in content with being a regular schnook You see if the movie if I'm the movie goodfellas reason I got to live my whole life It's just a regular schnook and he's saying it as a negative, right the Henry Hill character really out of but Phil is the only former major Crime Ward shot caller that I've ever been with and I've been with dozens At least three or four LCM bosses Some underbosses and conciliaries A lot of African-American drug kingpins guys that were biker bosses and Almost to a person every one of them would change places with their Older version self of their older version self in the blink of an eye if they could they can't go back to the They had the the power in the light. Yeah, they miss it. Phil is the only one that has no affinity for it doesn't want to Rebel in it or take pleasure in it You know him him You know his interviews for the from when we wrote both the book were very matter of fact He's incredibly intelligent and well-spoken and articulate and and I Commend that that he he's he's left that behind him and he's he loves just being a regular ordinary guy who can go have Dinner with his wife and take a walk on the beach and go see a movie and go bowling and go right play 18 holes of golf and Doesn't long for the days of killing people and and hanging out at casinos and clubs and You know playing cards outside of the bottom big Yeah, well, yes, that's a tree house. So and to your point about his Where he's at in his life right now people on social media contact us a lot and Ask us. Why haven't we interviewed? Phil Leonetti and I think to your point part of it is he just doesn't want to talk about it. Yeah Yeah, he thought he got that the book was catharsis. It was a cathartic experience for me Got he said what he had to say and my senses He doesn't really want to talk about it that much anymore. He doesn't mean I don't blame him And I don't we'd love to have him on but I don't I just don't To get the sense he wants to but No, I enjoyed this Again, I I'm so proud of that book I don't think I'll ever be able to outdo that book Yeah, it's it's a it's a really um Compelling read and you really sense the the anxiety and the stress that that life It is not a romance if you think the mafia is romantic read that book because it's it's very Anxiety ridden stressful. Yeah, and didn't he I remember asking how did it feel to become the underbots? I hated it. Right. I have no joy in it It was more responsibility more headaches more anxiety that was driven by my uncle, right? Well, another thing in the book we didn't get to and it's okay We don't have to but I just want to mention because it amuses me ethnically that Scarfo and a lot of those guys the Shot callers in that family at that point were Calabrian Calabres and so they talked shit about the the ziggies the Sicilian I found that funny amusing in your book and well, I also found it, you know, one of the antels You know fills the underboss It's three o'clock in the morning and his uncle. Yeah, that's the best to come over and fix his plummy It feels like call a plumber. It's three thirty in the morning. Right. I don't want to call for me I want you to come over and fix it. Yeah, that's one of the best parts of the book is like that That's that's you know, I'm the underboss the second the number two and this is this is my responsibility That's a great. That's a great moment in the book. Well, hopefully At some point we can see something scripted from it. I know there's been some ups and downs We don't need to go down there and give you some more post-traumatic stress But but I think one day I think one day it will be developed I know there was some momentum and then a couple people that have been interested and just never really It kind of died on the vine, but I The material is too good to deserve it to never be adapted. It'll be adapted. Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for listening I know this is a little bit longer episode, but we appreciate your support Follow us on social media subscribe to us. I'm Jimmy Buccellato and I'm Scott Bernstein. We're out