 It's Audrey. Hello. Very nice meeting you. Nice to meet you. Hi. So is it OK, right? I'm not using the earphone because I understand you are there. You also have two cameras here in Taipei who will then be easier for you to get the audio tracks together. May I ask you a question, please? Thank you. Can I ask you a question? I think we will be starting the interview right now. Yes. Hi, Audrey. This is Kauru, I'll be your translator for the day. I just want to let you know that we'd appreciate if you could speak in simple words, not use like big terms. OK, I will not say very complex words, like crowd, lexicography, or anything like that. Thank you. Thank you. The reason why we want you to use simple terms is simply because we want the youth in Japan to watch this. So I just wanted to throw you out. OK. No problem. Let's start. Thank you. Audrey, when was the first time you started relating to Japan? When I was born, many people in Taiwan are still using the wooden seals. And I remember browsing through all the different seals and the post office records and so on. And those wooden seals, my grandma told me, are a culture that Taiwan shares with Japan because she was educated when Taiwan was still part of a colony in Japan. OK, I'm sorry. Could you define what the wooden seals are? I'm unaware of this. OK, the wooden seals are a small piece of wood with people's name written on it. For example, this would be my seal. And it's in the shape of square. And I believe this is one of the culture that we share with Japan. OK, great. Let me just translate that right quick. When I first started relating to Japan, I felt the connection with Japan since I was born. And as I said, as you can see here, my grandma used to live in my grandma's house. Back then, I wasn't a Japanese person, but when I was still in Taiwan, I was still a Japanese person. OK, thank you. What's your impression of Japan back then? My first cultural exposure to Japan was from the comic book that I read when I was very young. And it's called Doraemon with a future cat, a robot cat that came from the future. And so to me, it seems like Japan is in the future, which is in a sense true because you are one hour in the future. It's not even 6 PM here, but it's already that for you. When I first felt the connection with Japan, I read the manga called Doraemon. And I felt that the cat in the future was a robot cat and I was very interested in the future. And in fact, Japan is actually one hour in the future, so it's in that sense that we are moving forward. Yes. Odori-san, since you were little, you have been able to study a lot. Were you a genius? From your childhood, we've heard stories about you being very skilled in studying what it's your experience like. Yeah, I remember when I was 7 years old in the mathematics class, the teachers were teaching about addition, like something adding another number. And I questioned the answer saying that 1 plus 1 is only 2 in base 10, but if it's base 2, then it's equal to 1, 0, and so on. And so the teachers had a hard time teaching simple mathematics when I'm talking about binary numbers and so on. So they told me to go to the library and read all I want when there's mathematics class. OK, thank you. When I was 7 years old, I was taught a number of classes and I was taught a simple number of classes, but when I said 1 plus 1 is the answer, I thought that if it's base 10, sorry, if it's base 1, then it's 2, but if it's base 10, then it's equal to 1. It was a very difficult question to ask the teacher. So it was very difficult to ask the teacher. I think it's better to study various things in the library. So you didn't want to study any bad subjects? Did you have any classes that you didn't like or didn't like to study? I could not participate in the outdoor sports class. So for those classes, I also go to the library because I had a heart condition that was fixed by surgery by the age of 12. OK. About the treatment of the fetus, I didn't like the state of my heart that much, so I was studied at the library. When I was 12 years old, I had that surgery, so I don't have any problems right now. What kind of dream did you have? What were your dreams back then as a child? I was very interested in learning mathematics and very interested in getting the ideas of what we call isomorphisms or homomorphisms. These are big words. In mathematics, it means that things that look different have the same underlying structure. I was fascinated by the idea, so I probably dream of being a mathematician. What is the reason why you decided to quit middle school? Certainly. So at the time, there was this new technology back then called the World Wide Web, and available quite a few years ago. So I was very interested in getting the ideas of what we call isomorphisms or homomorphisms. So I was very interested in getting the ideas of what we call isomorphisms or homomorphisms. So I was very interested in getting the ideas of World Wide Web and available quite inexpensively to people in Taiwan. Because of that, I participated in internet communities such as archive spelled A-R-X-I-V.org, run by Cornell University, where many people posted online their printed papers before it actually goes to print in the journals. I learned a lot about computational linguistics, about artificial intelligence. Nowadays, I'll call it assistive intelligence and so on. And so I just told the head of my school saying, you tell me that I have to finish the studies and get to a PhD or even a postdoc in order to work with the professor that I like. But look, the professor just returned my email and we're already working. So the future of knowledge is definitely on the World Wide Web. I don't have to finish the schools in order to make research. And the head of the school, after thinking for a minute, said, OK, tomorrow you don't have to go to the school anymore. And I will cover it for you, meaning that she will fake the records for me. Oh, OK. First of all, at the time, World Wide Web was a very new world wide web. It was called WWW. It was a very easy time for me to get my hands on it in Taiwan. At the time, Cornell University was developing a website where you can view journals and so on. And from there, I learned about technology and so on. And from the Chinese teacher at the time, he was a professor in the future, and he was also a postdoc. He was studying a lot of things. He asked the professor at the time if he could work with the actual university professor. He said that, but at the time of middle school, he had already worked with the university professor. And he didn't really have to go out. But there was a little bit of a conversation, so I said, I don't want to talk about it tomorrow. I don't want to talk about it tomorrow. So the professor asked me to work with him. That's what he said. Did you face any internal problems when you were back in middle school? No, not at all. I was spending a lot of time doing science fair projects at that time. The first year of middle school, I did a science fair about compression. And then the second year about reasoning, that is to solve logic puzzles and work with people in an interactive chatbot. Nowadays we'll call it a reasoning chatbot. And so these were the projects I'm very interested in. And I was shown the leading cutting edge research of the Royal Web, remembering that period as a very enjoyable time of my life. Were you interested in politics back then? And did you want to become a politician? Well, in a sense, when I quit middle school, I already joined what they call the Internet Governance, which is how to make sure, for example, all the people in middle school were interested in politics back then. And so I'm very interested in the Internet Governance, which is how to make sure, for example, all the Royal Web browsers can talk to each other. And also how to make sure that when you publish something like a blog, how can people who are not using web browsers read your blog in a machine-to-machine fashion? It's called RSS, the really simple syndication and so on. People of different positions. So in a sense, that's also politics. And also it's great because anyone with an email can join. I don't have to wait until I'm 18 years old or 20 years old. In general, for example, how can you connect to the World Wide Web? How can people who don't have the World Wide Web access that information? That's what I'm thinking. It's politics when you use all of that. That's his opinion. At the time, regarding RSS, anyone who has an email address can join. So 18 years old or 20 years old, even if you don't have an email address, anyone can join. I feel like this is one of the major differences between Japan and Taiwan when it comes to politics. The Japanese you don't really have a strong connection with politics. So that's just the end. Well, I think one of the reasons why Taiwanese people don't have a strong connection with politics is I think one of the reasons why Taiwanese youth is interested in the politics is because constantly the Taiwanese democracy is pushed forward by young people, essentially people of undergraduate or even senior high school age that occupy the parliament, occupy the ministry of education, occupy a lot of places. But with a demonstration that is not just protesting, but also demo, like demonstrating new ways to make decisions together, it has been like that since I was very young and right after 1989, right after the Tiananmen incident, the people here in Taiwan also demanded democracy but met by President Li Donghui at a time with acceptance and the same tradition with Fast Forward to 2014 when very young people occupied the parliament and then again met by the acceptance of the head of the parliament back then. And so young people pushing democracy forward has been one of the main theme in Taiwanese democracy. It is said that there are many young people who are involved in education and so on. In conclusion, the Tiananmen incident that took place in 1989 especially young people became involved in the politics in March. And anyway, we have Mr. Odori who is focusing on the world right now. In the pandemic, there was not enough masks around the world. Where did the idea of making mask maps come from? As you're aware, the whole world is suffering right now and everyone was focusing on how you decided to create a hazard map and how do you come up with that idea? It's not my idea. It's someone with his name from the city who created the map because he was tired of getting so many, hey, this store still has masks, hey, this store runs out of mask messages on the line group with his friends and families. So he made a map where his friends and families can report where the stores still have masks and which not. And of course, it became so popular that he owed Google I think 20K US dollars in API usage fees just two days after introducing the project. So instead of going bankrupt, he goes on the GovZero community or GZeroV community to ask if there are ways to run it in a more frugal fashion. I was one of the developers also on the GovZero collective chat room. I saw his idea and then bring the idea to the premier the head of our cabinet saying that, hey, if we support young people like this, we can publish the real-time availability of each and every pharmacy without actually spending a lot of money to do a new app because how it was mapped is something that people already trust. And so it was a really good reverse procurement in a sense that the citizen already know what to expect and we just provide a resource to make it happen. Of course, more than 100 different applications came out of it not just maps, but also chatbots and analysis, dashboards and so on. In the meantime, it wasn't originally my thing It was originally started by the people of Tainan At first, it was my family and my friends who were in line and they said that there was a mask in this place and I didn't have it here It started with the information sharing. The people of Tainan started making the map and it was a community that participated in it and I apologize for having such an idea in mind. Well, it was originally the citizens, but what kind of information was provided to the hazard map and I understand that so it's a very good idea I think. That kind of idea was originally from the beginning Did you always want to incorporate the public's idea into what you're currently working on? Definitely I'm not working for the government I'm working with the government and in the same way I'm not working for the people I'm working with the people I'm like the Lagrange point between stars or two celestial bodies like between the earth and the moon there's certain points that forms a kind of gravity free relationship so that I can conduct and facilitate better communication between the social movements on one side and the governments on the other without getting too attracted to the gravity well of either side. That's right As you said the ideas that people were working on were originally from the beginning I'm working for the government and I'm working with the government and this is the same for the general public of Taiwan and I'm working for them and they're working together for them to have a part that doesn't have gravity and drawing the two together I want to do this As I said Japan was a kind of future a fashion Japan went through a lot with mask lines In a generation As you might be aware, our former Prime Minister Abe, he's decided to send out two masks to the Japanese public, two masks per household. And not only did this take several months, the country sent out more than 80 million masks in total and spent over 80 billion yen. What are your thoughts on this? Well, I guess it's not directly comparable, because as I understand the Japan program uses masks that are washable, that is to say it's reusable. And while our masks are more kind of disposable and one-time use, they could not be directly compared. That said, of course, anything that raised the awareness of people wearing the mask is a good thing, of course. So even if the initial mask map, for example, did not quite work as expected, we worked with the pharmacists very quickly to fix the problem. They reported over the next couple of weeks until everybody become aware of it. So even if it doesn't work as originally planned, as long as people keep the mask idea in their mind, that will lead to a decrease in the R value, that is to say to help fighting the pandemic. And currently has a new Prime Minister, Minister, and we are currently moving towards a new Japan, and Japan now has a digital department and is trying to move forward. What are your thoughts? Congratulations. It's going to be a very interesting journey. I also heard that the reform minister set up the website for getting ideas from the citizens and receive a very large number of ideas. That's exactly what I did four years ago. And so this has also a sense of familiarity in it. So congratulations and looking forward to work together. The Japanese government is currently talking about speed, but then this contradicts because the digital department is probably going to be set next year. What are your thoughts? Well, it's quite usual, right? Because the budget cycle is exactly one year. Every year the parliament here also in Japan allocates the budget for the next year's institutional projects. So usually it takes a year. I mean, it's considered normal. And while I become the digital minister in 2016, we were still working with the budget that was allocated in 2015. And so basically we use a lot of open source software to make sure that we do not incur additional budget for procurement and so on. And that we essentially run on zero budget in the first couple months since I become the digital minister. And we get, of course, a new year's budget in the beginning of 2017. But I mean, in the open source community, working with zero budget is not a big problem. And so it seems that we have been using open sources for what we want to do other than that. And in fact, we have been working on it again since 2017, and we have been working hard on it. There is no way to do that. It was a matter of time before we were born to be the digital minister. And now we will be showing you a clip of the ward offices in Japan where staffs have to fill in forms by hand at the ward offices. Your local staffs at site will show them to you. Okay. It's about my number? No, no, no. It's about the 100,000 yen. Yes, the application process. Yes, that is correct. And the ward offices in Japan, they had to fill out every form by hand. And so it took a very, very long time for the money to get something. Have you watched it yet? Or does it be? Yeah, they show it to me before the interview. So let's go. Would it be okay if you saw the clip again? Of course, why not? The staffs are preparing it for you right now. Okay, now they'll be showing you the my number video. Yeah, I saw that, yes. Yeah. Just to show that we're watching the same video. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I have watched this again now. So what are your thoughts on what you just watched? It reminds me of a lot of like in Taiwan, when you first have to open a bank account or start a new company. I think as recent as 2015, you have to go through a process like this. Of course, in 2016, we started the program of what we call the one stop setting up of a company. So by 2017, most of the process can be done online. And by 2018, I think all of the process of starting a new company and so on can be done online. So this still feels quite familiar because when I was starting companies, when I was well, just 16 and 19 for two different companies, I had to go through a lot of that paperwork too. And that was like year 2000. And so the memory is still quite fresh in my mind. And Taiwan really did not get fully digital when setting up companies and so on until just 2003. This is recent memory for us. So in 2016, we announced that we would start a new one stop. And in 2017, most of the process can be done online. But by 2018, almost 100% of the process can be done online. When I was 16 and 19, I started a company. But at the time, it was around 2000. So I remember a lot of the work that was done by hand in the first place. About five years ago, when I first started working in that place, it was about two years ago. The 2020 situation in Japan is still like that. What do you need to make Taiwan smooth and successful? So you started digitalization roughly about five years ago, and you were able to drastically change how, you know, establishing companies and whatnot just in a year or two. And it's year 2020 right now, and Japan is trying to go through a similar phase, I guess. But what exactly do you think Japan needs in order to push this forward? Yeah. In Taiwan, the digital strategy is called DIGI or DG Plus. And these are digitization, innovation, governance, and inclusion. And so in those four, inclusion is the most important thing for people who are very young, for people who are very old, for people who don't speak Mandarin as the native language, or in your case, Japanese as the native language. There needs to be resources so that they can be included whenever new digital strategies get rolled out. I'm sorry, could you repeat what the G was? Governance. What are the possibilities after, you know, actually having DG Plus, like getting that fixed, how do you, I'm sorry, that was terrible. What do you think are the possibilities after normalizing DG Plus? Yeah, of course, that's a great question. I think most of all we will be able to include people who were previously not part of the public decision process. I was thinking of myself when I was 15 years ago. There was no process for me to participate meaningfully in 1996. I was too young to vote, you see. But nowadays, the most active citizen's initiative petitioners in Taiwan's participation platform are people who are around 15 or 16 years old. And also indigenous people, people who don't have the citizenship, but just residents and so on could be included more meaningfully in the democratic process with digital. And finally, even future generations who couldn't vote, obviously they have not been born. But we can, through digital modeling, to calculate the externality status to say the effects each of our actions are having, for example, on carbon emission and so on, so that we can also include the benefits of future generations in our democratic process. Yes, I think the most important point is that people who were previously not part of the public decision process cannot be included in the democratic process, but I think it is very important to be able to include them in the democratic process. And in 1996, about 25 years ago, I myself, even if I wanted to participate in the voting process, I was not able to participate in the voting process, because I was too young at that time. But now, Taiwan is active and active, so it is true that the young people who are 15 or 16 years old are still active. For example, I think it is a very important point to be able to raise your voice thanks to the fact that people who are not part of the local people can also be released online. For example, for children who are not yet born, you can participate in the voting process by calculating. For example, for example, there are a lot of people who are not yet born, but by reducing it, you can participate in the voting process by influencing the children of the future. That's right. I think that digital inclusion can be more and more supported by various world-wide problems. For example, the problem between China and Taiwan that Taiwan is involved in, if we continue to do digital inclusion as an important person, will it be possible for us to be able to do something big? We are now aware that digitalizing can tackle a lot of social issues. What are your thoughts or do you think that any of these issues can be solved or at least touched on by using digital aspects when it comes to the Taiwan and Chinese relationship? I think there's a lot of exchange of education, of culture, of poetry, and so on on the internet among people in various different jurisdictions. I think specifically about the Oslo Freedom Forum, which takes place digitally this year. Last year it was based in Taipei for the Asia Oslo Freedom Forum, and we hosted a lot of people from Hong Kong, but also from other jurisdictions that want to share their stories to the global audience safely from Taipei. And now, of course, the digital realm, they are even more free. They don't have to physically travel to Taiwan in order to benefit from the discussion with Taiwanese people. And so I think the liberal democratic countries can offer a lot of perspectives on how people in lesser democratic countries or countries that are authoritarianism in nature or authoritarianism is on the rise can think of useful alternatives to authoritarianism and confronting new issues. For example, we can fight the pandemic with no lockdown if the society understands, everyone understands the epidemiology. We can fight the infodemic like this information crisis with no takedown if everybody understands the ideas of humor over rumor and so on. So these ideas worth spreading can change the nature of a society from authoritarianism to a more liberal democracy. I know about that because Taiwan was still under martial law when I was young, I was a kid. And so we went through this process ourselves. I didn't get to talk about it, but until now, a lot of people from various countries have gathered and for example, not only people from Taiwan, but also people from Hong Kong have participated in this process and have been working on a lot of these issues. Currently, because of the digital realm, for example, if you don't have that much money and can't travel, you can participate online and raise your voice. I think that's a very big difference. What does that mean? For example, not only people who don't have money but also people who don't have access to public services can raise their voice in the same way. I'm going to talk about the pandemic this time, but if we share the same information and knowledge in a society, we might be able to solve it without lockdown. That's why I'm talking about it now. So do you think it's possible for you to fix or do you think it's possible for you to fix or move towards stuff further towards a better relationship between Taiwan and China by utilizing digital stuff? The main thing that is going on here is whether people think authoritarianism's rise is inevitable either because of coronavirus or other reasons or whether there are good authorities to authoritarianism. So people do not have to choose in a false dilemma between public health on one side and human right or liberal democracy on the other side. And the Taiwan model shows that not only we have maybe the second best in all places in the world when it comes to counter COVID, second only to Antarctica, but also recording GDP growth. So do you think that the digital... And that is due to digital social innovation. So by showing a viable alternative, it makes it easier for other jurisdictions who are considering more authoritarian tendencies to see that there is a feasible alternative. Thank you. Yes, I think there is a possibility. And when it comes to intercontinental relations, it's a bit of a dilemma, but it's not just about politics, it's more about the coronavirus. In Taiwan, it's a positive thing that has been a success. That's what it means. We are aware that you positively hear and use the voices of the youth. How exactly do you implement these ideas? Yeah, each and every of the ministries participating in the social innovation are participating in the social innovation each and every of the ministries participating in the social innovation action tour around Taiwan to listen to people of all generations. But specifically, they also have about two people per ministry or council as reverse mentors of the minister. And so the idea is for people under 35 years old to lead the possible direction of that particular ministry by working closely with the ministers as I have myself worked before I was 35 years old with Minister Jacqueline Tsai. And so having the tradition of the young people pointing out the direction through the youth advisory council meetings, for example, and the more elderly people now I'm counting toward the elderly now because I'm above 35 and implement the young people's directions, giving them the resources. So not only the original mask map creator Howard Wu was a youth in the sense of under 35 years old but also the people who started the crowdsource and crowdfunded campaign. Taiwan can help that us are also young and even the young doctor that reposted Dr. Lee Wenliang's whistleblowing saying that there's new SARS cases in Wuhan. I think it was on the 31st of December that was also a young person. So I would say that young person are taking the matters to their own hands and it's us, the older generation, I'm part of the other generation now's role to support them in the new direction with resources. Yes, in Taiwan, there are a lot of people who are under 35 years old with about two or three people. And among them, the youth advisory council is held well. And it's a great honor to be born as a kid in the mask map. Other than that, the crowdfunding and such is not to give up the voice of young people but to find out the problems from such a place. Why do you get advice from young people? Why do you like to do that? I think that's the first thing I want to say. I think that's the first thing I want to say. I think that's the first thing I want to say. I think that's the first thing I want to say. Why do you listen to the youth? Because the youth have less legacy thinking in their minds. They did not already have a oh, things must be this way because it has always been this way thinking. And because of the less preconceptions are more open to new ideas and also because they are digital natives who are born essentially with the internet in their life. They're also far more connected than the digital immigrants which I'm one because I encounter internet when I was 12 How old is the youngest person that you talk to? How old is the youngest person that you talk to? How old is the youngest person that you talk to? I talked to people in their schools so there was around 10 years old 11 at most who interviewed me and also brought me to their classes some of them also the youngest is maybe 9 years old among the interviewers who interviewed me in my office and I also talked with 11 years old or 12 years old in virtual reality as part of the group interview for secondary school people so a lot of people around 9 to 12 range What were the great advice that a 9 year old told you about? Many of them are interested in sustainability I remember one of the most popular petitions supported by the very young was to gradually bond the use of plastic straws in our national identity drink the bubble tea which would be not very much considered by people who are already used to the idea bubble tea equals plastic straws but the very young people correctly pointed out that it has a cost on the environment it would be better if it's biodegradable or if you can reuse the straw somehow like in glass where it's very transparent you can wash it repeatedly convinced us so the environmental protection agency actually rolled out a plan to gradually bond the use of non-reuseable plastic straws What were the things that affected the environment and returned to soil or what was the reason to reuse the straw we were told that the environmental protection agency was convincing and convinced gradually but using it once not as a product or something that can be used we decided to change that On the other hand what do you think Japanese children are thinking we actually went out and heard a lot of stories so would you like to see them? We we've interviewed a couple of youths in Japan on what their view on Japan and the teacher about what you would it be okay if you watch rewatch the video? I watched that of course okay watching now in Shibuya there are a lot of opinions that you want to ask for example what should young people be interested in there were many questions that were toward you and one of the most popular questions was what should the youth do in order to be interested in politics there's a saying from Buckminster Fuller and it goes like this if you don't like an old system an old institution don't fight with it make a new institution a new system that will render the old one obsolete there's a saying Buckminster Fuller can you spell that out for me sure B-U-C-K M-I-N-S-T-E-R and then F-U-L-L-E-R B-U-C-K M-I-N-S-T-E-R and then F-U-L-L-E-R and then F-U-L-L-E-R for example the future is not decided but it has been taken away from the future do you have any advice for this many young people in Japan are either losing jobs or are anxious on whether they won't be able to find a job in the future due to Covid do you have any advice for the youth yeah in Taiwan there's a natural disaster such as the very large earthquake around the turn of century and major typhoons and so on like the typhoon Murak we always had people losing jobs and even losing their homes and so on and so every time that this happens it must also be seen as a possibility for new social relationships right after the turn of the century after the major September 21st earthquake people who were previously of different like religions like the Christian and Catholic humanitarian forces the Buddhist humanitarian forces and so on all joined forces together without any division between them purely out of the humanitarian aid to the people in need suffering from the earthquake the most and so out from it came new associations new cooperatives new social enterprises because people have the attention the situation there and they work with that attention and very quickly rebuild a new culture that has more solidarity in it through as I mentioned associations and cooperatives and so that are the ideas worth understanding and even starts practicing when you're in Japan too what do you think each and every individual you can do in order to combat the anxieties they have and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and think that it's not your individual's problem, it is a structural problem, that everybody holds a piece of the puzzle to solve. And only when we piece together the puzzles do the solution emerge for the entire society. So participation and just joining up, linking together solidarity, I think that is the most important part. Yes. Well, I don't want to make it a concern, but I want to make it clear to you why we think it is so important, and why we have understood it. So I am not alone in thinking that. Please remember that. I have a lot of communities, and I search online for them. But I want to share with you the same questions as we do, and gather people who agree to it. So please take that as a creative point of view. What happens in the end is not a personal issue, but a social issue. I don't know if I can show that, so I can start with myself. I already have a group of people, so please listen to them and take part in the conversation. It may be difficult to imagine, but in the same situation, if you were caught, you would have lost your job. What do you do first? If you were one of the people that lost their jobs, what would your first action be? First of all, I will go to the social safety net website with my phone, and then check all the available programs for me to enjoy the social welfare and safety net while I think about what to do next. And then I will join the support group, the online community, and let other people know my situation, and we'll figure it out together with the community. First of all, I will check if there is a safety net on my phone and see if I can get a specific situation. After that, I will participate in the online support group, and then I will share the situation with the community. Thank you. Next, I have a question for you, Odori. What is your future dream? The youth in Japan also wanted to ask what are your personal dreams in the future, as of this point. Sure. Yeah, I think a lot could be said about the vision of bringing mountains and rivers and future generations into the democratic process. I think that truly is a common value of sustainability regardless of which age or which generation you are in or which culture or which jurisdiction you are in. After all, we don't want our life's work to become totally meaningless if the earth becomes uninhabitable in like three generations or four. So that is a future that we're all commonly working toward. Do you want to become the top of Taiwan in order to bring your dreams come true? Well, the top of Taiwan is Savia, or the Jade Mountain, almost 4,000 meters high. And I don't need to be there. We have the virtual reality scans. So when I put on the virtual reality headset, I can experience how is it like to be on the top of Taiwan, the Savia. And the Savia or Bandung Kun Neng, depending on which indigenous nations name you use, is there for tens of thousands, millions of years. And they will outlast, I mean these spirits, these mountains and oceans will outlast our current generation of Homo sapiens. In a sense, we're just stewards of these natural spirits. Yes, I'm using it a little bit. But in order to be on the top of Taiwan, there is no need to be physically there. And if necessary, we can use VR and other devices to experience the top of the virtual reality. So I don't feel particularly important to be able to take control of it. Yes. Many of us in Japan kind of wishes someone like you existed here in Japan as well. But we'd like to ask if you have any memorable quotes by your parents. How is those two related again? The first part is just kind of a statement. And if there are any words from your parents that kind of influenced you as a person you are today, we'd like to hear them. Okay. Yeah, sure. My dad will tell me that don't accept any doctrines or dogma from anyone, including from him, to creatively question everything. And if I'm so sure of my opinion is right, he will use the Socrates method to reveal that it is only right under certain conditions. And so I think the main lesson is that there is no individual that can hold the whole of truth. The truth is something that we must piece together like a puzzle through conversation and listening together. Okay, thank you. This is a word from my dad. I believe in all kinds of doctrines. And he always asks questions and forgets to ask questions. That's what my dad tells me. The truth is that what he saw from his own eyes is the truth. And he says don't make any other person say what they said is true. Okay. I understand. Even if I talk about this today, Odori-san always has something in his mind that makes him not feel comfortable. Is there anything particularly important that you are aware of? From my eyes, you seem like a person that has an open space. Is there anything that you keep in mind to maintain that? Well, I sleep for eight full hours every night, and that's when I work, actually. This news usually ends in the morning, so we only get roughly three to four hours of sleep every day. That's not good, is it? Yeah, you can double that. Can you at the end share your words of encouragement to the Japanese youth? Sure, I'll again quote from my favorite singer songwriter, Leonid Cohen in the song Anthem. And it goes like this, ring the bells, they still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack, a crack in everything. And that's how the light gets in. I'm sorry, can you repeat the person that slept with? Sure, Leonid Cohen. So, spelling is L-E-O-N-A-R-D, and then space, C-O-H-E-N. My favorite singer songwriter, Leonid Cohen in the song Anthem. There is a crack, a crack in everything. There is a crack, a crack in everything. And that's how the light gets in. And that's how the light gets in. And that's how the light gets in. That's how the light gets in. So, when you find that ring, what do you think? Um, the quote you just mentioned, I think this is relatable, not just to youths, but to people like us that work in offices. when we do find a crack, how do you think is the best way to tackle them? Yeah, just let the light in to face the crack, to accept that there is a crack and to accept it together so we can as a community deal with the crack. And that's when you let go of it because then the people become aware of the crack are already working on it, the light already gets in and that would be the time to move on. Once visit Japan sometime in the future and bring light to the Japanese citizens, thank you for your time today. Very much looking forward to that. Live long and prosper. What's that? A sparkler group. Ah! A star-drawer group. That's right. Yeah. What message do you give them? Live long and prosper. Um... Excuse me. What's your name? Um... A room? That's the name. That's right. Yes. You do this every time. Do you do that every time? Yes. You do it every time. Take practice. You're going to be doing that. Okay. Next time, Madeni will. Hi. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hi. Hi. If I could, I'd say I'm young. If I could, I'd say I'm young. Ah! What's funny out? Hello. I'm so busy now. Is that like, oh, you're very busy. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. That was a great interview. And you can see that the local crew are still filming this post-interview session. So thank you for the very professional interview. Yes. And also thanks for the great interpretation, by the way. Thank you. I'm familiar. Thank you. Really glad that it resonates with you. And I really do hope to visit Japan once we get their vaccine ready. So we need to work on the vaccine together. Thank you. Arigatabou gozaimashita. Arigatabou gozaimashita. Again, I live long and prosper. Now take practice, I know. OK, bye-bye. Thank you.