 Thank you so much, Bob. This is Kristen Lays from Heritage Preservation. And I just want to thank Mike at Learning Times and IMLS for making these webinars possible. Today, we're going to be talking about using collection images and educational materials. It's our second web-wise webinar. And we did one on Monday about using collections images in online exhibits. And if you missed that, you can find it on our website, www.connectingtocollections.org. And that's the Connecting to Collections online community that we began as part of the Connecting to Collections initiative, sponsored by the Institute of Museum and Library Services. And Heritage Preservation worked with AESLH and Learning Times to create this site. So it's like a one-stop shop where you can find information on a whole variety of preservation topics. It's a place you go to access these webinars. And we record every one. So you can see our full library of webinars there. And we've started to do some online courses. And so more in-depth information that, again, has been recorded. And we invite you to look at that tab on the community's website to learn more about preservation. And finally, it's a place you can ask your questions or network with colleagues. So please do join the community. And that will give you access to the discussion pages. And so today, we are so excited to have a Susie Hunn-Gran, who is a curriculum specialist at the Minnesota Historical Society, and Shana Crossen, who's the Web Content Manager at the Minnesota Historical Society. And I think you'll agree that they're doing really exciting work with their state teachers and the state curriculum to make their collections come into the classroom in really exciting and innovative ways. So I don't want to delay that anymore. I'm going to drag away my introductory slides and bring up their presentation. And then please continue to say hello, but I'm going to actually drag away our hello box. And we'll move to that moderated chat that Mike told you about. So again, you'll see your questions posted twice once when you tell us about them. And then we'll either respond to privately or publish them to the group. So if you're having any technical issues, you can let us know there as well. But again, welcome. And I'll turn it over to you, Susie. Hi there. I want to thank everyone for joining today. And I wish I could meet all of you and hear about the exciting projects you're working on. And I'll just go ahead and introduce myself quickly. I have been working with the Northern Lights Minnesota History Curriculum for 11 years. And it is the curriculum that's used throughout the state to teach required benchmarks. And I'll be working with Shauna Crossen today. She is our web content specialist and has been a fantastic partner among many others on this project. So here's what you can expect today. First, we're going to show you how to access our free iPad app, which is on Minnesota in the Civil War. And if you get nothing else out of today, I want you to know that that's free and available and is showing all of the things that we're going to be talking about today. We're also going to be talking about how we use collections in our curriculum, because, of course, this curriculum would mean nothing without the exciting objects and artifacts that we have in our extensive collection at the Historical Society. We're going to be talking about our process. We've done quite a lot of work to research the digital instructional landscape, which, as you know, is changing quickly and has a lot to do with the future success of this project. We're going to talk about what we've learned from educators in regards to digital tools and primary sources in particular. Connecting to standards is an integral part of this curriculum and has a lot to do with the revision that I'm working on right now on the editorial side. We're also going to discuss a few pedagogical trends and other lessons we've learned as we've worked on this team together. If there's time, we're going to stop the presentation and then go to our website to actually do a demo of the app. It's unfortunate that we can't do that as part of this presentation, but due to the webinar software, we can't have audio coming in on the video that is part of our app. So we may be able to show that to you if we have time. And then we'll be taking audience questions as we go. So first off, I wanted to mention the iPad app again. And how you can access it is to go to iTunes, because for right now, it's only available on an iPad. It's not available on any other devices, although that is changing quickly. And certainly by next year, we hope to broaden that. But for now, you can go to iTunes and search for Minnesota and the Civil War. Or you can go to the Bitly link that's right there and download this app onto an iPad for free. I also wanted to mention our Education Web resources. And Shana is very familiar with the web page that's shown there. The Minnesota Historical Society offers a variety of education programming and all kinds of free resources that you can access on our website, www.mnhs.org, backslasheducation. And you do need to type in the www's. And that's because of our site, which is hosted by the state. So Kristen is going to put up our first audience poll. Now Kristen, does that show up? Here we go. Is that? Just have to resize it here. There we go. Excellent. This is exciting to see. Yeah. I didn't know what to expect today, so. Right. It's a nice mix in it. Hopefully, these are regional names that are familiar to everyone. But if they're not, just take your best guess, just to give us a sense of who's joining us. So I think that Kristen will probably allow this for another moment here, and then we'll probably move on to the next question. I think we're slowing down a little. So I'll close. Drag this away. Excellent. Well, it's nice to see that our participants are from such a broad range of areas. Yeah. And then they also want to ask, what kind of classroom activities might you be involved with? Yes, so I thought that as we were talking about this, we might want to know a little bit more about what you guys were up to. So are you creating tours or written materials or components of exhibits? Now, this is where we wish we could have heard even more from all of the participants, because I know that you're doing exciting things at your cultural institutions all throughout the country. Excellent. So the Minnesota Historical Society does do all of the above mentioned activities. And as I said, feel free to check our website for possible ideas that might connect to the projects you're working on. OK. So I see we do have exhibits, and it looks as though web-based materials are winners so far with written materials. And tour is also coming in high on this one. This is exciting. OK. Well, I'll drag this away and let you continue on. OK. Thanks to everyone for participating in that survey. So I will give a little bit more background about the Minnesota Historical Society if you're not familiar. As I was mentioning, we have a variety of education initiatives. So we have a strong research arm if you're willing and able to come to St. Paul to the Minnesota History Center where both Shauna and I are based. You can do extensive research here. We have a strong base of genealogists who come to our library. We have fantastic exhibitions here. We have one on the Civil War in Minnesota happening right now. We operate historic sites throughout the states, including the Oliver Kelly Farm, which teaches about 1850s farming. We have the Split Rock Lighthouse up in Northern Minnesota and a variety of other exciting sites. We have an extensive collection and also a publishing arm, which has overlapped quite extensively on this project. So I'll tell more about our curriculum so you can understand where we're coming from with what we've learned. As I mentioned earlier, this is a sixth grade Minnesota studies curriculum. It is used throughout all of the dots shown here on the map below. You can see it has a wide distribution. And part of the reason for that is that there are required benchmarks for historical instruction that relate to Minnesota history. And this is the only comprehensive curriculum that covers those benchmarks. We're lucky to be at an institution that has the resources to create this. It has primary sources throughout. One of the most important things that we do is talk about multiple perspectives, and I'll get more into that later. And this has been available since 1989. We are now creating the revised second edition. And it was 1989 that the first edition came out, which is part of how we've been able to have such a wide distribution throughout the state in its use. So there are components to this. The first, and we're working on the revised second edition right now, as I mentioned. We have a student edition, an annotated teachers edition with worksheets. And part of the revision involves navigating that digital landscape mentioned. So we now have an e-book, as well as an enhanced e-book that we're working on that will be available next year. And you can see below there is a video clip that's going to be included in that enhanced e-book. And that's what, if you download that Chapter 8 Civil War iPad app that I mentioned at the beginning, you'll be able to watch that video. So here are the components of the student edition. There are chapters that include objects, photos, letters, maps, and quotations. And we're having a lot of fun connecting all of these things in the chapter narrative to the newly revised state standards. We also have investigations, which follow each chapter. And these are one of the strongest parts of the curriculum because they really allow students to act as though they're historians. And we make it fun and engaging by talking about, here, students, pretend that you're a detective. And we ask a lot of exciting questions for them. For example, in the new revision, Chapter 14 is about World War I. And we have students investigate cartoons, newspapers, and ads. And we have a variety of World War I propaganda posters. And we ask students, what strategies does it take are being used to inspire people to fund this war? And then we have them design a propaganda poster themselves. So as you're working on your own projects, you can think about different ways that students can be involved and create fun projects of their own. In Chapter 17, we get at multiple perspectives. And as you can see in the photo below, we have multiple survivors of the Vietnam War. We have a soldier, a nurse, a Hmong soldier, a Lao soldier, and then a Vietnamese immigrant. And all of them came together in December and met each other for the first time and told their stories, which we did archive, both on video and audio. And we'll be including clips of that in the Enhanced e-book, which we're really excited about. And in the print edition, we ask students, how do you think it may have felt for these people to meet 35 years later? Do we have any questions about our curriculum so far? OK, I'm going to. We haven't yet. But I was just saying, we did have a question about whether or not this would relate to college-aged students. But I do feel like when you talk some more, there'll be some great lessons that are applicable if you're teaching at a higher level. And I would say that the answer to that is yes. In fact, one of our advisors, and we have a very extensive vetting process on this curriculum that we've been working on for a year and a half, just in terms of revising the content to meet the new standards. We've been working on that for the past year and a half. And one of our advisors is a professor, and he teaches at a college right across the street from us. And he says that he uses this regularly with his students. So even though it's written at a sixth grade level, it is something that's helpful to use as a base. So from here, I'm just going to turn it over to Shana. And before I do that, I wanted to just sing some praises of Shana for a minute. Because here's one thing that's one of my favorite things about this project. Our institution was wise enough to realize, before we even started this revision, that they needed to pull together teams that don't normally work together. And I just cannot stress enough how important that's been in terms of the learning that we've all had together. So Shana represents our web content team. I work in our teacher education group. And so I work with teachers and creating content and building it. We also are working with staff from our press. And they are pros at helping everything involving the nuts and bolts of production, both in print books and in e-books. So I realize that we have a large-scale project. And many of you may be working on smaller-scale projects. However, we tried to make this whole presentation scalable so that the things we learned would be applicable to you, whether or not you're at a large institution or a small one. And it doesn't matter what size of project you're working on. However, I will say, if you don't have wonderful staff members from different groups like I do, go ahead and try to find someone who is an expert in web content if you're a content person. Or if you know the website of it, try to find somebody who knows more about teachers. So that's my introduction to say I've learned so much from Shana. And I'm really excited to be working with her. So from here, Shana, you can take it away and talk about what we've learned from K-12 educators. Excellent. Thank you so much, Susie. That was very kind of you. And I'm flattered and honored. And I have so enjoyed working with Susie on this project and getting really in deep and involved in this. I've been working really intensely on digital education for about four years now. I'm going to talk a little bit about what we've learned and how it's applicable to the project that Susie was talking about. But before I get there, I just really quickly, it's really helpful to know if Kristin could put the next poll out there. What is your own digital comfort level? Those of you, how do you feel you are in terms of using technology? You guys could just quick let me know. Oh, I see a lot of early adopters out there. Oh, the middle one. Good. It's reflective of what we see in education as well. Teachers are all over the board. And actually, a lot of the teachers, I work with a number of teachers who are those early adopters. Thanks, Kristin. I think we can close that. And a lot of people who are really kind of at that second level using technology, but not the first one in the bandwagon. Then if it really would be helpful to know, too, if those of you who are listening to this could tell me what your familiarity is with K-12 audiences, how frequently you work with that audience. So a lot of you work regularly with the K-12 audience and feel free to pop things into the Q&A if you have similar experiences or opposite experiences of what we found in our research. Good. Thanks, Kristin. That's helpful. OK, I'm going to close that poll. One of the things that we have been watching as we watched our audience change is that the learners that are coming to our building and using our materials now are changing. They're what we refer to as 21st century learners. And we know that we needed to familiarize ourselves quite a bit with 21st century learners, excuse me, and what that means. They really do learn differently. This generation, this audience learns differently, partly because they've had access to digital tools all their lives. And we need to change our instruction and our materials in order to remain relevant. If you're not familiar with the IMLS 21st Century Skills report, I hope you head out to the IMLS website and download that and really take a good look at that. And so you're familiar with what that means. Just quickly, I'm going to run over some characteristics of 21st century learners. They are non-linear. They need immediate feedback. They are very collaborative. They like to learn socially. They like to learn with each other. And they like to be collaborative with each other. They are visual learners. It doesn't mean they don't read, but visual and audio are a really good entree to text for this generation. They're multitaskers. They like to do a lot of things at once. And they like to make personal connections. So this is just a really rough overview of some characteristics of 21st century learners. And it means that we really need to change what we're doing. If you need a reference about what we do when we're meeting the needs of 21st century learners, there's the foresees, if you're looking at this field, that teachers are using, educators are using, that we really are trying to make our curriculum and content appeases. Foresees, critical thinking, collaboration, creativity, and communication. Do you keep those four things in mind whenever you're designing a program? That really helps teach students the skills that they need to be successful. We add a couple more on here. We often add content, context, and cross-disciplinary, or sort of our sub-seeds. But those four are really the big ones that we try and keep in mind. Those words that you also need to be thinking about career and college readiness. So instead of just being the sage on the stage or the teachers giving you all the information, we want to make sure that you're being the guide on the side in helping students access content and that they're ready for college and career readiness. To learn more about this, the partnership for 21st century learning, p21.org is a great resource. YouTube has some awesome videos about it. And just yesterday, I was looking for some things and remembered the web-wise of 2012, there's a great session about 21st century learners. So if you go to the web-wise of 2012, you'll see a really good session that'll help you figure that out. Research about digital tools in the classroom. I've been looking at this pretty closely for the last few years, seeing some pretty significant changes. Lots of schools going one-to-one, meaning each student has a device. The devices at this point still are predominantly iPads, although that is changing. We're seeing Chromebooks, some Android tablets, some schools, or what we call BYOD, or Bring Your Own Device, where students have whatever works for them, Kindle, an iPhone, an iPad, a laptop. And this is really having a significant impact on curriculum delivery, as well as how we make curriculum, and other things that teachers are accessing in the classroom, which is one reason we are really getting to primary sources and digital primary sources. We know that teachers want the primary sources that we have. We've heard this over and over again. So we've been doing a lot of work talking to teachers about what they want. We did a series of focus groups, over 45 teachers, many different grade levels, all sorts of different schools all over the state, in many subject areas, even though we're the Minnesota Historical Society, we did not just talk to history and social studies teachers. We talked to media specialists, first grade teachers, English teachers, even math teachers, to find out what they wanted from digital primary sources. This is what some of the things we heard. They love coming, using our sources to find resources, but reading through all of it was too hard. It was a lot of work, and that was very off-putting to them. We also know that students are doing a lot of the research, and students need to be taught how to do this research. So these were two things kind of guiding us as we did our research. I was fortunate enough to be able to have 10 teachers in for a week last summer, and the whole focus of that, what we call Teacher Camp, was to find out what the teachers wanted for primary sources. One of our goals was to develop criteria for choosing the primary sources. Which primary sources were we going to use? The other goal was to develop a template for context around primary sources. We knew teachers wanted information, but what did they want to know? And this was what the whole week was focused on. One thing we learned, and I'm gonna just run through a series of our conclusions from this week, primary sources tell stories. These, Susie could tell you a lot about the stories of these objects. I'm not gonna go into that, but these stories, these objects tell a story. And that's what teachers wanted, but the whole point of these primary sources. We learned that teachers use primary sources in many different ways. I did it, this is using a tool called LinaWid. It's an online post-it note tool, and I had the teachers just post notes up on there about things that they use the primary sources for. And if you take a peek, anything from having students bring in their own primary sources to teaching about photographs, all sorts of different things that teachers use primary sources for. This was helpful for us to know what they were using them for, so we could build tools that they could access our primary sources. We also know that they wanted fewer resources, not more. The Minnesota Historical Society, we have lots of primary sources, objects, photographs, maps, all everything available, oral histories available online, but that's really overwhelming. For example, this search I just typed in Civil War. We're real focused on Civil War since that's a chapter we've been developing. And it pulls up over 1,300 objects, objects, photographs, maps. That's a lot of things to search for, and that was too many. So we know that they don't want that many. We need to narrow that down. Instead of 1,300, they might need 1,300. We need to select the best things for them to choose from to use in their classroom. And here, Sharon, the teacher, Mrs. Meyer, is telling us, I'm not going to sit there and sort through 100 pictures or documents. This is why they're not, they don't have time, they have a classroom of kids, they need something quick, and they need it now. So we need to do that work for them. We also learned that they want the correct kind of information. When we put things out there, we know that there's a lot of good information, but teachers don't want all of this information. Nomenclature, for example, is a term that students don't know what it is, and frankly isn't really relevant to them right now. They want to be able to access that if they need it, but for the most part at the level they're working, they don't need this depth of information. Yet they want different information. They want stories. They want the stories about the Civil War drum. They want to know what we know about it, but they want the stories. So in essence, we created what we called a wrapper. We had the teachers develop this, and they came up, this was just a sample of a wrapper that the teacher created. This was not based on facts, so don't look at it. This was just a sample of what they wanted. And this is the type of, the way they'd like to access information. Basically, what have an abstract with the five Ws, if you remember from elementary school, the who, what, when, where, why, and how, they want that kind of information, maybe three or four sentences, and written at a sixth grade level. They want us to provide the story that we know about the primary source, the short narrative, which is part of that abstract. They want it written at sixth grade, like I said, they just want one. We went into this thinking we needed a teacher wrapper and a student wrapper, and that was a mistake. They just wanted one. Provide access to deeper info. So all that other info, the nomenclature and all that other information, they want that but available that buried, so it's not there immediately, because they don't want that right away. They also really want related materials, like images, links, resources, other resources that relate to it, so it's really webbing out from one object to all sorts of things. And critical thinking questions, that goes back to those four Cs that we talked about, suggesting critical thinking questions for teachers to use, and always tied to the standards. Another thing we learned, they really want images that are zoological. This is a huge technical implication, of course. We have to make our images much larger, which is all sorts of issues. But when I've been out in classrooms, whenever you hand a kid an iPad with content on it, they immediately want to make those images large, and they want to look in close and see what's there. We just had the experience, yesterday actually got a new version of the book on a different platform, that allows zooming in on images that we hadn't been able to zoom before, and it's images we've been looking at for years and years, and all of a sudden when you can zoom in on them, you see details that we've never noticed before. So the zooming piece is really important. Selecting primary sources, this was a huge piece of why we brought the teachers in. Tell us how we make these decisions about what goes up, what primary sources we choose. And these are the things that they came up with that were essential. We had a number of hours of discussion about this. It has to encourage critical thinking and inquiry. The objects of primary sources, and primary sources are, we just grabbed objects, but anything, I had to provide historical evidence, and it must support their curriculum. There were a few other pieces that we couldn't quite all agree on. They really wanted objects that showed multiple perspectives, so different sides of the story. That has to be relevant for students. And the reason I selected this as a Civil War Surgeon case is when we tested this photo, this object with students, the kids were just enamored of it. They thought it was just so very interesting. So it was relevant to them. They could relate it to their own lives. And it evokes emotion. Again, this object evoked emotion, quite a bit of it. One interesting thing, and again, we've talked to teachers of all grades, even though our curriculum is focusing on sixth grade, we wanted to make this relevant to K through 12. And all grade levels are using primary sources. The K through four teachers tended to use primary sources that related to everyday life. And the five to 12 teachers tended, not solely, but tended to use objects that related to events. For example, this duster coat, just looks like a duster coat, but once you know it was Jesse James involved in the James raid, it has a whole different story and event to it. And that's what they were looking for. The other piece we found was the selection of them, of objects really needed to be done by teachers. So we have two objects here, and I think we have a poll, correct, Kristen? Which photo would you choose? Would you choose option A or option B if you were delivering this to teachers? That's good, thanks, Kristen. We, when, you can close that poll. We are using option A in the book, and that's what we thought. We thought that, and when we did this, there's a reason they're choosing it for the book. That is not what the teachers wanted. The teachers all chose, and all the 10 teachers I had, they all chose option B. Why did they choose option B? Because option A, this one, and I have a lovely 15 minute diet or transcript of this when they chose the other one, they felt this picture was far too specific. It was too simple, and it was too language-based. That was fascinating to me. There's too much in here that's talking, that the content is delivered through words and not through visuals. The teacher, one teacher said it doesn't complete, paint the complete picture, and that option B, he had many, many more questions to ask, talking about context in option B, let me go back, oops, wrong way. In option B, you can talk about the weather. You can talk about the fact that there's how many people at this event. One of the teachers teaches right by where this takes place, and he talked about having his students try and relate this, which took place in the 60s, to where it is today. What stores are in this area right now? How does this relate to their lives? It was really fascinating, and it really changed our minds about what we pick and what we choose. I'm gonna let Susie talk a little bit about why they picked option A for the book, Susie. Hi there, as we're thinking about design, we have to think about what looks good on a page, and so we had many, many discussions with designers on every single page spread of this book, and sometimes images can't be as large as we would like in the printed version, and even though we're moving from print to digital, when we have to think about that print book as our base, and so if a photo can't be as large as we would like on a given page because there's a map or a sidebar or just too much content that we're trying to squeeze in as it is, it can get hard to see what's happening, and that other photo would just not, the page would not do it justice, but we're excited because especially now that we have this new information and we're just entering into the phase where we're really doing a lot more with the digital version, we can now incorporate that, and I have to admit, I wouldn't have thought to use that other photo either, I would have just discounted it entirely, and now we know because we talk to teachers who use this curriculum every day, we will include this, and we'll also provide some context around it because I think that you don't wanna leave teachers completely alone without any sort of context. So, back to you, Sha. Okay. At this point, I see a couple of questions coming in and I wanna talk briefly about some conversation about the oral history. We're really excited about being able to incorporate oral histories into the enhanced e-book that will be coming along, just starting to talk about how we select those oral histories and how we incorporate those because I think that adds an element that we haven't been able to use before, so we're really excited to do that. But any questions, Kristen, that we wanna go over at this point? Yeah, thanks, Shauna. So right, so I posted the link, we did feature that oral history in the digital age project last year and just Google that name too and you'll find their website. I think it's at the University of Michigan and I think it's getting more and more robust all the time as I say, add and improve it. We wonder, there were a couple of questions about specifically about teachers camp. You talked a lot about the information that you got out of that process, but could you share some specifics on the activities you had them do? In particular, how did you go about asking for the input that you received? Okay, we put this together fairly quickly, it was one of those last minute things and we recruited teachers just by putting out a call for teachers and that wasn't a problem. We had four and a half days and I did probably what teachers don't, like you wouldn't think teachers would wanna do was really a lot of sitting around and talking. We did a lot of brainstorming, a lot of writing ideas up on the board, breaking into small groups and then they came to their own conclusions about what we should do. Like I mentioned, there was actually a lot of disagreement and loud discussion about what criteria we should use. It was really kind of actually amusing to watch them try and help us to figure that out. I also had them spend a lot of time on small group work where they wrote those wrappers. We provided them to save time. We provided them with a handful of primary sources. The photo of the protesters was one of them, for example, and asked them to come up with, asked them to come up with and write those wrappers to give us the examples. Then we also had them do presentations about how they would use those primary sources in their classroom and what they would do with them. And it was a group that ranged from our first grade teacher through, I guess I didn't have any high school teachers in that group, but first grade through eighth grade teachers in that group. Okay, great. And then, I guess this, I think this teacher's camp sort of touches on Amanda's and Amber's question about teacher trainings and have you done beyond teacher's camp, do you regularly do any sort of teacher trainings or? We do have a whole group, another unit of the organization that does teacher professional development. So teacher camp, I tried to show them some things that we did in the organization, but that's not what they wanted. We paid, we did pay them, and they wanted to give us input the whole way around. So that teacher camp really wasn't, I wouldn't consider professional development. We really were asking them for information, but we do do a number of other things for professional development, full day workshops, part day workshops, a lot of training on the Northern Lights curriculum. And we are just now starting to investigate webinar professional development training as well. Okay, great. I think that catches us up. Great. Turn it back to you. And I will address this a little bit too because part of my role for many years on the education outreach team was to run the teacher professional development. And a few things I would point out. One is when you're working with a group of teachers, I have always found it helpful to give them specific tasks. So in the case of the wrapper that Shauna mentioned, we wanted to know specifically if I were to give you multiple objects to choose from, what exactly do you want to know around that artifact? And we gave them a very specific task and the reason I say that is that different groups of teachers have completely different cultures and it's good to be prepared that you might get a group that is completely enthusiastic, they gel, they commit ideas and they're engaged. But what I often find when I'm leading professional development and this is different, the ones that I have led primarily are, well, we've done focus groups that Shauna mentioned where we are paying teachers and then we also have led professional development where they are paying us. I have found that when we lead professional development, often teachers come in thinking, this is not my day to be up in front of a group, I do that all the time every day in front of my students. This is my day to just take in information and not be in charge running things. So I sometimes find that teachers come in with a culture of not wanting to participate actually and that surprised me when I first started this role because I would often think, oh, this is exciting, we have 15 Northern Lights teachers from different regions of the state all together and I would have planned things that would require them to come up and present and share with each other because I know those teachers have good ideas but sometimes they would come in with this attitude of I'm just shy and they don't always realize the value in what they bring to the table. So I found over the years that if I have a very specific task for them, it's easier for them to feel comfortable and get involved and you just might need to encourage them because they do have a lot of information to share. In fact, we value teachers more than anything in what we do every day but they don't always want to jump up and participate as much as you think. I also say we planned this experience, this teacher camp. We had an agenda where each half day roughly was planned out or two hour blocks but we also knew that we wanted to be flexible that if it took a different turn and there was a lot of dialogue and this group was very engaged and it was a lot of fun that we would be able to be flexible as we went. So I'll just go ahead and move on to the next section here which is connecting to standards as well as some other lessons we've learned and as I mentioned before, the fact that we're working together has taught us so much more than if we had been working on our own. So many of you do work with K-12 audiences regularly so you may already know that including interdisciplinary connections is crucial and becoming even more important. There is a national trend to have students learn more about different kinds of disciplines as they're going through because that'll prepare them for their careers in a different way than I learned when I was in school. Audio components are crucial and this is something that if you are one of those people who works with K-12 audiences regularly it won't surprise you but what I have found is that for team members that we have who don't work with teachers or schools regularly, they're shocked by this actually and we've had a lot of almost pushback along the way as we've tried to say as we research how to bring this curriculum into a digital format, we need to have an audio component throughout the entire thing and there's been a lot of surprise about that but if you are working in schools regularly you know that all students benefit from audio components. We're hearing about struggling readers more and more and you almost can't walk into an elementary or middle school and not hear about struggling readers. We also are trying to connect with English language learners and that brings me to the next point which is that Spanish and other translations are becoming a necessity and not a luxury and something that if you have the wherewithal and the ability to plan for that and whatever you're creating it will greatly increase the chances that it will get used. This is the new social studies standards that just came out last year. I went into detail about it but I just will point out that grade six here is the level where our project lives and we're covering Minnesota studies. As you can see it's surrounded by history of North America at the fifth grade level and U.S. studies at grade seven and then all along the line here I'll just briefly mention what Minnesota studies means prior to this latest revision the requirement for our curriculum was to cover Minnesota history but now it's Minnesota studies because it covers a variety of disciplines so no longer are we just teaching history but we're also actively covering citizenship and government, economics and geography. So I would also broaden that to say that social studies is being marginalized throughout the country and I hope not in other countries but if you can find ways to connect your project to math or science it will also be popular and much more able to be used by your audience. I'll give some examples of how we're doing that in our curriculum and I'll say it's been one of the most fun parts as I've been involved with the editorial side. These are some of the sidebars that we created because one of the things we talked a lot about was how do we incorporate these new expectations without getting in the way of the narrative which is one of the strongest parts of the curriculum? It really reads like a story and it's fun and engaging for students and we didn't want to make it clunky by suddenly inserting an econ concept so we just found that for our particular purposes inserting sidebars was the way to do that and although it's hard for you to see them here because they're crammed onto one slide I'll probably a little bit more about them. This one that's in the middle here in green is an economic sidebar for our fur trade chapter and it's called fashion. It's been around for centuries and this shows a photo from our collection of a gentleman wearing a silk top hat and we talked to students about how the fur trade went into decline because fashions changed in Europe and the story that I'll tell that's related to this was several years ago when I was exhibiting at a conference I had a Northern Lights page open and it was showing fur... it was showing top hats that included fur, not silk, like the one shown in this particular photo and a teacher came up to me and she said, oh, I can't believe I'm about to tell you this but she said all this time I've been teaching I've been picturing coonskin caps when I read about fur hats made of fur during the fur trade and it wasn't until she saw the photos of those top hats in our book and of course it's a great way to feature collections items she didn't understand why they were so fashionable so that just goes to show the power of visuals and the power of primary sources and education for teachers as well as students. I'll also mention here in the purple sidebar on the right, this one is a geography sidebar that's called Location Matters and it's a way that we're able to connect geography to one of the paintings in our collection and this one talks about land use over time which is one of the standards that's required in this Minnesota Grade 6 benchmark and we talk in these paragraphs about the importance of a confluence of the river and we first mentioned the term bedote which is the Dakota word for the confluence of rivers and in this particular case we're talking about a place where the fur trade developed and then where the U.S. government built a fort because different groups over time knew how to value rivers and they used it differently based on that. I also have here on the left a civics and government connection and this is another photo from our collection of burial mounds and in this case we're talking about laws that protect burial mounds not only in Minnesota but in the United States because one of the new requirements is to teach students about specific laws and how laws were created. So I hope that as I'm telling these stories you're thinking of objects that you're going to be featuring that might connect to these things because of course as you know if you're teaching history you are teaching economics you are teaching geography and you are teaching civics but we just had to be very heavy handed about it and point it out in a new and fun way. So if you can think of math and sections too all the better. For example, here is one of our brand new activities in the Revised Second Edition. It goes with chapter 12 and it tells the story of this immigrant family who came to Hibbing, Minnesota which is on the Iron Range in 1915 and first we have students explore this photograph and we have them look at the petition for citizenship which mentions the family members that are pictured here. Well in fact part of the mystery of this is that not all of the people pictured in the photo are on the petition for citizenship and maybe you can look at this now and we'll ask you the same question that we ask students which is is there something unusual is one of the people in this photograph look slightly different than the others and as students find out later in the activity the woman third from the left has been added in later which was an early version of the Photoshop she actually... oh thank you, yes there she is the Peter Santies came to Minnesota not altogether as a group first Giuseppe came and then Maddalena came and brought her remaining daughters with her except for the oldest who stayed in Italy and they kept trying to raise money to have her come over and make the trip but in the end she stayed in Italy and got married and they added her to the photo later. In any case students get to learn about this family while also exploring their economic situation in this case Maddalena ran a boarding house while Giuseppe worked in the mines and we talked about how their family system worked together to raise money for the family and we introduced the concept of a budget because that's one of the new personal finance standards that students are required to learn in grade six so we thought this would be a fun way to make a budget interesting because we asked the students what would it cost to bring a family member from Italy to Hibbing during this time and it was $125 approximately to make the trip so we say we have extensive information about the boarding house that Maddalena ran and we also know the amount of money that Giuseppe made as a minor and so we have students explore how long it might have taken for them to save up that amount of money and we have a worksheet about that and one of the things that we learned when we classroom tested this was although the standards requirements ask for students to know about budgets sixth graders do not even know that word they're not familiar with the concept at all and so we had to scale back the activity after we classroom tested it and just keep a very simple activity that first teaches what a budget is and in fact we went back earlier in the book to bring in some worksheets that just taught what a budget is so that when they get to this activity they can really dig deep and learn about this particular family's budget. So I'm going to talk a little bit about some lessons that we learned throughout this project that are more of a broad scope. This is something that relates to why I'm so grateful to work with Shauna because I'll oversimplify slightly here but let's just envision that I came from the world on the left and Shauna came from the world on the right and what we learned from working together is that we as content providers need to be somewhere in between and what I mean by that is I come from a world of editing and publishing and I've mostly worked with print books and Shauna works in a web 2.0 world where digital content is everywhere and she knows how flexible teachers are every day in their classrooms and I'm just going to switch to the next slide to talk a little bit more about this. What I've learned is that if as content providers we're all the way to the left of the spectrum we don't realize the need that teachers have to customize their materials because if you work with students and teachers and many of you do you know that teachers have a sharing culture with each other and they're rewriting content in different ways or tailoring it to their classrooms every day and if publishers come in thinking we are the ultimate authority and we're going to impart our information to teachers without letting them change it I think we're going to be a dying breed however if we're too far from the spectrum on the right where in this digital world everything is free content is everywhere and it's all the same I think we're doing a huge disservice to teachers because they're constantly being put in a situation where they have to evaluate the quality of everything that's online and it varies so greatly and as I mentioned we take our vetting process very seriously on this curriculum and the goal is to be somewhere in the middle so that when we provide our ultimate product whether it's digital or print or a field trip whatever it is we need to give teachers a starting point but find ways to allow them to tailor it so although that's only two slides it's really taken a year of learning for us to get to this place and I wouldn't say that we even know the answer yet about exactly how to do that because of course we get into all kinds of other issues that we don't have time for today such as copyright and expectations about income generation or income generation versus just mission expectations so we haven't exactly figured out all the logistics about how to do this but I know now from working with Shana and the teachers that we have to try to be somewhere in between I'll talk a little bit more now about the transition from print to digital because that's been quite a roller coaster we've had some dark days and we've had some exciting days as we've worked on this but as Shana mentioned 21st century learners expect digital tools and I'll just tell a little story that Shana wanted to make sure that I highlighted when we test and you can see the photo there is from our focus groups that we did with some beloved teachers in Becker, Minnesota in this case we first had students open up their books and they got to a page that has a handwritten Civil War letter from a soldier named Charlie Goddard and the teacher said someone raise their hand and tell me what's happening in this letter and maybe one or two students slowly hesitantly raised their hand and said I think maybe this letter says mother on it then she got out the iPad and had students play the audio file of that same letter and then she said now someone raise your hand and tell me what this letter is and the whole classroom just shot up with hands and kids were excitedly saying Charlie got shot in the leg and his friend is still alive and he's writing to tell this mother's friend that the friend is still okay and they were so excited I will say too that's gotten us into some debate on our editorial team about are we encouraging students to be readers or are we encouraging them to understand the content and I would say the debate is still ongoing about that I believe both are important I also will mention that multimedia tools increase the opportunity to engage all learning styles we can update content more readily which is something that as an editor I'm excited about and as librarians know there are always mistakes that happen to make it and of course new things happen so we're excited to be able to update our content more regularly the devices that are coming out allow us to highlight collections in fun ways so for example we can do some 3D we can show 3D items and show them from various angles we can bring in audio and video clips for example if you download our free iPad app you'll hear from Dred Scott who was integral to Minnesota history as well as US history and then we also have the luxury of social media that helps us broaden our audience and not just social media but for example the tool we're using today here are some things that are not so fun about this print to digital one is that there is no silver bullet and I can't tell you how many hours we have spent on our team trying to decide what is the best way to deliver this content that we worked so hard to craft and there's really no easy answer but we have found for our team that ultimately creating something browser based as opposed to for a specific device is really what our teachers and students need and the reason for that is that there's a huge disparity in tech readiness throughout the state and of course throughout the nation as well schools are interpreting this digital landscape in every way you can possibly imagine and so it does make things challenging for us but if you can try to get things to your audience in the most broad way possible that's helpful another thing that makes this challenging is that educators want it all every time we ask teachers in a survey would you like this or would you like this they of course want everything and we don't blame them because they're strapped in the classroom and there's so many expectations on them technology is changing quickly as you know and as I mentioned before there's such a wide range of quality of content and it's really not all the same specifically there's a very strong very common misperception out there that digital content costs no money it should be free it is free and as you all know you're asking for grants you're trying to find a way to fund your projects I think it's important to try to spread the message that the audience is not paying for printing of a book they're paying for the content development and at some point whether it's at the end user purchasing point or the development and the backend development content just isn't free and that's unfortunate I wish that it could be but that's something that as we move forward into this digital age we're really going to have to work against that misperception sometimes schools right now are having to choose between should we buy devices or should we buy content and it's a horrible position that they're being put in so if there's anything we can do to help teachers have more content that's quality we that's what we're here for it's good that someone at the top was asking about professional development because as someone who has run professional development over many years this is something that makes me very nervous about introducing these new tools and every time we come up with a new version I just think oh there's going to be so much professional development needed and not only are teachers getting less support for that but institutions such as ours are not having as much money to be able to develop it so whatever project you're working on if you can think about what might a teacher need how might I teach a teacher how to use this if you can incorporate that into your planning from the beginning I think it'll help ensure the success because teachers are just so busy you often have to lead them to the water and show them how to drink and then they're excited and they love your project and if you don't teach them how to use it they may not use it so that's just something to think about if there's anything you can do okay I'm getting close to the end here but just something else to think about broadly if you are working on something and pitching it for a K-12 audience there are more decision makers in schools that we think need to be consulted than even five years ago so we know we need to consult teachers but we also need to think about administrators special needs teachers those ELL teachers or English language learner teachers or teachers of students with special needs school boards are often involved and also think about IT staff and media specialists and a number of you are creating digital projects so it's good to think too about not the pedagogical needs but also just the logistical space needs for example or what does the district need to what devices are necessary what bandwidth is necessary in order for the end user to use your project so I believe this is the end but we just wanted to highlight that teachers are very enthusiastic about this curriculum and one of the reasons for that is the primary sources so for example this one teacher says I hesitate to call this a text given all the primary sources included and because of that another teacher says I enjoy this book the kids love it and I'm excited to teach it every year so just to close I wanted to highlight again the free digital resources that we hope can help you and you can see a little bit more about the interactive elements that we have incorporated with this curriculum for example interactive maps items that can be what's the word zoomed across the page and as Shauna mentioned earlier we can look at close ups of artifacts that we never could before and we can include five images on a page instead of just one now and feel free to visit our website for a variety of other web resources as well Kristen would this be a good time for questions and then I think we can stop then after that if Shauna can demonstrate we'll try that but we don't know if it's going to work so maybe we'll take some questions first OK, well Ann feel free if you all have questions type it in the Q&A box but Amber was wondering if you think that the northern lights curriculum would have been as successful if it hadn't been supported by a state curriculum was the connection necessary for the creation of the product and that might be on just sort of maybe that's like an institutional question do you think the historical society would have taken it on if they didn't think they were supporting a state curriculum but to sort of even in your process well actually the northern lights curriculum preceded the requirement to teach state history so it's not only because of state standards that northern lights exist and was popular because the curriculum came out in 1989 but it was in 2004 that Minnesota history became a required topic so we just were fortunate enough to be at an institution that was seeing that teachers were teaching state history even though it wasn't required and we were able to produce something that then became a requirement I think it only then underscored what teachers were already doing and certainly we do know that because of the state requirement that certainly does help make sure that there's attention placed on this now so I would say it's a little bit of both yes it impacts us quite a bit but it also was around and existed for many years before that state requirement did that's really interesting I think you had told me this in person but I wondered and you sort of referenced it talking about your department and Shauna's department but I think you told me in person that this is a multi department project so do you want to just repeat all of the departments you have at disposal and it actually started the number of departments involved from the beginning of the revision until now has grown and I think that's a good thing so there's education outreach and we are the ones who work with teachers and create content and create curricular materials and that's my team there's the web development team which is Shauna's team and they create our website as well as think about lots of innovative new ways to connect with schools the Minnesota Historical Society Press and they publish oh gosh I should be able to say off the top of my head but I think it's on average about 40 books a year and they have delved into the e-book world and they publish cookbooks they publish scholarly treatises they do some language stuff involving Dakota and Ojibwe content and they have been they've been integral to this project because of their knowledge of how to put a book together and they have fantastic relationships with production vendors both on the print and digital side we also work closely with our marketing department and I know that during the webinar on the third someone mentioned the importance of marketing and that was something that got discussed at the web wise conference as well it is good to think about how we're going to market products I think in our institutions we can get caught up in thinking how wonderful our projects are but if we don't take the time or the resources to let the audience know about it it can get buried under all the other wonderful things that the institution is doing so we work very closely with our marketing department as well Great and then Kat had a question and I don't know if Shauna wants to answer it or not but she was wondering what platform you used to build I guess that would be to build the app or to do any of the other programs here Yeah I can talk about this Susie can talk about this too We actually this has been a long process and it's been a really complicated process I've been working in this now for a couple of years and things have changed quite a bit in that period of time If we have a minute and if we want to I can demo the app we were to build an app for us that was based on chapter 8 which is a Civil War chapter it was just a beta just to test it out just to have an idea of what the possibilities would be and I think it was a great experiment even though that's not the way we were going to go it was a way to demonstrate to the kind of the power the people that needed to know the stakeholders what it was we were envisioning with delivering a digital curriculum seeing any of this didn't have any idea what we were trying to do so having the beta version of the app was a great way to show it to our internal stakeholders but the best part of course was being able to take it out and test it with students and teachers and so that was just a really great a great test we are not going with an iPad app for a variety of reasons we will be going with a browser based version that is available on that can be used on anything Android to Chromebook that's where we are ending up actually I think that's an interesting point the why you've decided to not, I think Susie mentioned it to me when I met her why you've if it's brief you can briefly describe why you've went right from the app there's a couple just the app is a very it's still very controlled and it doesn't allow the flexibility that we needed it also means that only schools that have iPads are able to access it and we, while I right now I'm still seeing predominantly iPads in schools, we also know a lot of schools are going Chromebooks, bring your own device that kind of thing so schools need to be able to access they want to access the information, the content on whatever device they have and that is one of the really big reasons why we, that is the biggest reason we're not going fully with an app apps are also very complicated to work with from an administrative end in terms of getting it out to schools and frankly an app this book has 20 chapters and an app that had all 20 chapters in it would be it would fill a whole 16 gigabyte iPad so that's not very rational yeah I think that's very interesting because and I think if you want to go ahead and start to share your screen okay but I know that some of you joined us today might have thought, oh no an app how am I going to manage that and so now you have your answer it's a nice thing but you have proof to just drop that down and like share my screen and hopefully it will work on that just do the drop down and then click on share my screen from the drop down I will find out there nothing yet I'll just talk while you're doing that it does seem that standards are increasingly a focus and there is a way to connect your content to whatever your state standards are and I'll say that and stop for now could you answer Marcia's question about a search term she's looking for the app on iTunes it is Minnesota and the Civil War so if you go to iTunes search Minnesota and the Civil War does anyone that should pull it up and I will get to the page that has the link to I'll read that while we're getting this up of course now is when it doesn't work so you can also go to BIT backslash Civil War app all one word yep I should want to just post it the complete link oh excellent Linda thank you well done Susie do you want to talk a little bit about what's in the app I'm having of course not working now that I'm do you want to minimize it on your screen I'm sorry do you want to just minimize the meeting room on your screen and then I mean to you I'm having trouble with the mirroring isn't working I see of course it worked all morning but not now so what our app has in it are well here's one I'll tell about one of the things that's the most popular one we have a bayonet in our collection and the student activity that goes with chapter 8 let's look at a painting that was commissioned 40 years after the Civil War and it's hanging in the Minnesota State capital and many teachers love that because they can take their students to see it and what we have students do is compare okay I'll just finish this sentence and then you can show and actually Shana can show this but students compare the painting to actual items from our collection and then they assess how good of a job did the Douglas Volk who's the painter how did he do his job was to do an accurate rendering of the Civil War battle and then you can see different items from our collection that are depicted in the painting and you're able to slide back and forth and look at those items and so that's one of the fun things that we've been able to do with this technology that you can't do in the textbook and in particular the bayonet is one of the showpieces because in the print book the bayonet in order to get it large enough to have any sort of scale the bayonet stretches across the fold of a page and it's not very swift but if you're on the app you can actually slide your finger back and forth and the bayonet moves with it and you can just see up close what that that item looks like so here it is this is the exciting bayonet especially can you see this yes oh okay we are up there's our bayonet there it is so there's the bayonet and as you can imagine this well it might look like just a little budget or a trinket the kids engaged with this in a way that was really really really neat to see they were very they had lots of questions about it and they did all sorts of interacting with it and they took this like I mentioned before the visuals then took them into the text so it was pretty special to see do you want me to walk through a couple other things Susie here I can walk yes I think I'll go ahead and mute myself let me just start from the beginning and walk through and I cannot see questions so Kristen if there's anything let me know like you said this was based on our second edition so it looks different than the third edition does we did add some instructional things we found when we revised it because there were teachers not kids but teachers who didn't quite know how to access the information so that was added we have a little timeline in here this was just a demonstration project we already know we're going to take this timeline in the next e-book and really expand it beyond this in a much more interactive way again the audio piece all of these terms I'm not going to play the audio right now all of these terms are able to be push on them and you can hear them just text and one of the reasons we aren't staying with an app is this text in an app is it's basically like taking a picture so it's static so this text can't be enlarged kids want to be able to make it their own so they want to customize it and this app doesn't allow for that this app does have audio up in the upper corner if you can see it there's a little speaker so any of this audio can be heard we had professional actors record the audio because we know kids are in our test as well kids respond much more to professional voices than they did to the computer voice we don't have to do it that way but we think it was worth it this is just an example of an interactive chart that in the book I never understood what it was trying to do but once I saw it in an interactive chart it really helped this is an example of a primary source if you look at this article here having the audio in it again helped the kids access the information and the content that was in there this is an example of where we were able to show more primary sources this content actually isn't in the book but in this case we would only be able to show one photograph on the page but in the app we were able to show six and add a little context to the picture around here and it actually did make it into the book in the later stages it wasn't in the second edition though it's in the third edition I'll just show you can't hear the video but we had developed this video for example for another project and so we were able to reuse it in this app and this video is not simple it's very complicated and when we took it out to schools and tested it it was, first of all it was really loud until kids put their headphones on but kids were so engaged with this and were able to really come through learning content through this video in a way that they would not have been able to access through print so it was really rewarding to see that be done so while we're not going with this app for our final selection these are similar concepts to what we'll be doing we will have some sort of interactive map like the charts will be like that the zooming now another reason with the app is these photos aren't able to be, are not zoomable we knew that was an issue this photo for example is one that I just looked at in a different platform that we're going to use and if you see in the back there's another person going in the tent I've looked at this picture for years and I'd never really noticed that until I saw it yesterday on this other tool because we were able to zoom in so closely it was really, really fun this is the letter that Susie talked about that we tried, that kids tried to read in print and then when we, when they heard it their response was just amazing and they were able to learn the content much deeper and at a different level than if their whole, the lesson was not about reading 1860s handwriting the lesson was what they clearly got to say to his mother and it was really that was I think the the example for me that really confirmed that we were going in the right direction this is another example of being able to just see a lot more primary sources and a lot more object teachers are always asking for more in the second edition there was one picture I think it was the cook stove but then in the app we were able to add in a number, a bunch more objects and the teachers and the students really like that we're not going to go into it here but there's a teachers edition if you flip the iPad to the portrait view the teachers edition is down below and that teachers edition has links to additional resources and when we tested it with the kids they loved being able to go out like just a link from here would take them to the Minnesota Historical Society website where they could look at even more objects and there were definitely kids who did that this is an example of being able to just zoom in and what kind of access that gives to kids to be able to look closer at the pictures more primary sources and this is the painting that Susie talked about that the investigation they had to find the objects in this painting and the comments we heard from kids when they saw this was how much clear the painting was on the iPad than it was in the book and they pulled down the middle of the painting about right here which just makes it a lot harder to access some of the information from the painting and in the iPad it can be much bigger so if they click on this then they see the full version of the painting which just makes it much more accessible Susie anything else in particular I should point out I would just say for those of you who do have paintings and objects in your collection this was a powerful concept it would be a great thing to replicate in other projects and I did visit the school easily six months after they did this activity and this was just in the print version and there were young students and particularly I noticed the boys were really enthusiastic about this one and six months later they had very specific questions to me about the individuals in the painting so I could tell that it had resonated with them so feel free to use that same convention of having a painting and comparing it to objects in your collection and seeing what students think I also would point out I saw a question come in is the e-book available to the public this particular app which is just the chapter 8 test the Minnesota and the Civil War that is available free for anyone because we were trying to test this out and we thought this also matches an MHS initiative of teaching about the Civil War so that is free and available to anyone the e-book for Northern Lights for all 20 chapters will be available anyone could purchase it but it won't it will be fee based and the Northern Lights curriculum the book itself the print version I've actually had many adults say to me you know I picked this up because my sixth grader had it and then I stole it and now I just want to put it on my copy table so if you're among that group you can feel free to pick up a copy that's a great well I just want to make a last call for questions because we're about 20 minutes after 3 we said we'd go till 3.30 today and I just want to also put up you should see on your screen our evaluation for this webinar I know I almost would appreciate knowing some feedback about these webinars and thanks to Shawna for I'm so glad you got to share that app it is neat I had a question about it so you're going to use more of a browser platform for the eventual product but it will still have all those same features that you see in the app the zooming and the it will have all the things that we demonstrated in the app and more one of the other pieces that we know teachers really want that wasn't in the app which is another consideration was the ability for students to write in their digital texts and to be able to highlight information like you would do with a book that you could write in some of the digital tools allow you to highlight that text and save it to note cards and that type of thing the app does not allow us to do that and these other digital tools do they also the other digital tool allows social some social sharing allows teachers to build quizzes right in and that kind of thing which just is a whole different level of functionality than the app offered us but the app was a great control for us until what to do and you're right a lot of interactive features will be part of the e-book that's great and if you wanted to see this is what oh maybe not it's not that important but I was trying to find a slide that had that app a photo of the app icon just I'm not sure why it's not showing up okay was it earlier in the presentation it's funny because it should be on this page and the following so I'm not sure why it's not there now but that's okay in any case this is how to find it and we would love your feedback yes we'd love feedback on any of this and feel free to contact Shawna or myself if you have any questions and even if you would like to share what you're working on and would like advice as I said I would love to hear about other things that people are doing as well so Mary's asked the question um and I said you know I know you couldn't get into everything here but are there any limitations on using certain collection images in an e-book I know that crosses into copyright and yes do our agreements and what not yes we are fortunate to have so many items of our own because certainly if it's an mhs item we can use it quite quickly and however there are items that are not part of our collection and we have an extensive permissions process that we undergo to make sure that certain paintings or photographs that we need permission from the person in the photo so certainly limitations regarding permissions are important and I'm trying to think I guess other than that sizing would be something to think about and that would be something more that our production team members for the press could tell you if you're looking for specifics about sizing and TIFFS versus JPEG for example I would be happy to take any questions and run those by our press or perhaps Shawna could address that more than I could but on the editorial side certainly the limitations all involve permissions that's helpful there's a question from Jeff and this just might might be useful for others to know how you got what your career path has been to get to these positions at the historical society because I think it's they're really interesting and exciting positions that you're in but I just if you don't mind sharing did Shawna did you have a history background and then you got interested in the tech side or did you come from the tech side and got interested in history I was a history major in college and I've been at the Minnesota Historical Society for 25 years I started as an interpreter at a historic site ran historic kind of assisted at an historic site for a number of years and then I went into exhibit development and then did some administrative work and then just through some layoffs and through some interest I started doing technology work back in the late 1990s just kind of trained on the job so it was just getting dropped in with both feet and having to learn how to swim and having some great mentors in terms of teaching me I can write my way, write HTML and CSS with the best of them but it was just having the right people there to help me learn all that and for me I was an English major in college and was always fascinated by publishing and I knew that I wanted to be an editor and I also knew I wanted to do something involving education and so I started out as an editorial assistant at a small publisher and then was able to move to a larger publisher in fact I used to be on the grammar, usage and mechanics team at a large textbook publisher and then when I moved to Minnesota there was an opening to replace someone on maternity leave who oversaw this project so it was through my textbook production experience and editing experience that I came into this wonderful place and I always like to say that when we're open to experiences that we don't expect sometimes those are the best things because I do not have a history background and have been able to learn so much and I love being surrounded by history experts because I'm a project manager and an editor and that's how I came to be connected to this project which has been the most rewarding one I've ever worked on. This is Shawn again, I actually I do have a master's in education that I did teach for a couple years as well so for me this project has been just a great way to mirror all of my experience in one project. That's really interesting. Just a question specifically has to do with digital archiving. Does Druckle Society have those experts on staff? Sounds like he's considering a post master's digital archiving certification program and I'm going to guess that that's a fairly new type of a program. Seems like it's a good idea to me but I don't work directly with him but we have people have been working on that sort of a concept of how do you archive digitally and lose the right term but things that are creative digitally there's a whole we have a whole wing of the organization that deals with that type of thing. And I'm too. I am grateful to work with people who do think this way because for example when we brought together those five survivors of the Vietnam War I was in print production mode and we had brainstormed for months with the writer of that activity and we knew that it had legs and we were excited about the idea and then as it grew and we found the participants who fleshed out this idea that had just been a dream at first and we suddenly realized we're going to have all five of these people in this location on the same day. I'm lucky to be working with people like Shauna and others who said you can't get those people in the room and not not get audio of the experience you can't not get video of the experience because this needs to be archived and so we fortunately have a great multimedia staff here and we were able to arrange to have the whole video taped. And it's embarrassing to me to say that it didn't even occur to me at first. So we are certainly the team is thinking broadly about those kinds of issues. That's great. We're at time so I want to thank you Shauna for sharing all of your experiences and these links I think will be really useful to people. If you don't mind we'll put up your PowerPoint in a PDF on our website so people can access those URLs after the fact and thank you so much for your time and for sharing this great project. We wish you the best of luck and we can't wait to hear updates. Thank you for asking us. You're welcome. Thanks for hanging in everyone. Have a good day everyone. Thanks again for tuning in.