 Welcome, this is the Education Committee, the Vermont House of Representatives, and we are looking at our Senate Bill 16, an act relating to the creation of a task force on the exclusionary discipline, which we are also looking to change to the task force on equitable and inclusive school environments. We're trying to put them in the positive. So, we are delighted to welcome you and you are all. The first we're going to be speaking with us is Evelyn. Is it money. It's Monhey Monhey. I should know to allow you to just introduce yourself so I don't put your name. The first time we need. Welcome Evelyn money from new ski high school, the youth program specialist for up for learning. So welcome, we are interested in hearing your, your response to the bill before us and can welcome and for the record could you introduce yourself. Yes, and thank you so much. So good afternoon everybody my name is Evelyn Monhey and I'm going to ski high school student. I'm a leader and mentor in one of these students for anti racism, which is a youth group that addresses anti racism within the windows key school district. I'm also consultant with the Vermont equity practices network under the VPA. And then finally, I am a youth program specialist at up for learning, which is a nonprofit organization that explores youth adult partnership in education. I've been in the education system my whole life and through the work with my organizations that I've previously mentioned, I've been diving into restorative practices, and real deeply rooted equity work. I'm interested in exploring further than the inequalities and our education in our education system and how we can begin to deconstruct and redesign our schooling and education with youth at the forefront. Thank you and welcome towns to group. Awesome, my name. Yeah, good afternoon. My name is towns to growth. I am a senior at U 32 high school. I am involved in a lot of restorative justice and restorative practices movements including as a youth facilitator for up for learning, where I help train other teachers and administrators and students of other schools in restorative practices. I am a youth panel member for the Montpiler Community Justice Center, where I am working with young people who have come into conflict with the legal system in some capacity. And I do restorative justice with other other youths in in in my community justice center. I'm also a in part of the restorative justice panel at you 32 and have done a lot of restorative justice work within my own school, and I am representative to the school board. And I think that all these experiences have shown me the how much school culture and environment is impacted and how much of it is determined at the policy level at the level of the rules and regulations created by the wider governing entities involved in in schools, and the importance of ensuring that a good school environment through at every level, especially in the over the policy level and the governance level. I'm going to pass it to Lindsay now. Welcome. So good afternoon, everyone. Thank you towns and thank you Evelyn. Thank you all for having us. My name is Lindsay Hallman. I'm the executive director of the Vermont based nonprofit organization up for learning which stands for unleashing the power partnership for learning. We work with schools across the state and I'll get into that in just a moment but prior to joining up for learning. I taught middle school in Vermont for 15 years. During that time, about a decade of my teaching experience was co creating the edge Academy, which was a school within a public school, Essex Middle School, dedicated to applying the principles of student centered and personalized learning. I've always believed that youth are the most valuable and transformative stakeholder and education. And they're often the one that that have the least amount of say in the educational experience. Therefore, there should always be opportunities for you to be at the center of the decision making that impacts their educational experience. During my time as a middle level educator, I also spearheaded a school wide shift to restorative practices. I'm a nationally certified trainer of restorative practices and like towns I also volunteer at my local community justice center the Essex Community Justice Center. And I serve as a co coordinator of the Vermont restorative approaches collaborative. I also want to state that I'm a parent of a fourth grade student. Over the past over the course of the past 13 years up for learning has worked with 95% of Vermont high schools, 50% of Vermont middle schools and a growing number of elementary schools. As they work towards systemic transformation, engaging all learners and increasing the authentic voice of youth in learning and decision making up contributes to the capacity of youth organizations across Vermont and beyond. To challenge inequities and raise up youth voices as they lead us to a public education system that is accessible, equitable and radically inclusive of everyone. This means expansively modifying boundaries in a way which creates a difference in the possibilities for engagement, as well as creating spaces that are more accessible, welcoming and inclusive of all youth and adults. Over the past two years are working up for learning with schools integrating youth adult partnership and restorative practices has been one of our biggest growth areas. And in 2019 2020 the agency of education provided one year of funding for the restorative approaches collaborative and I attached the final report there to our written testimony, which was led by up for learning as the lead fiscal agent. In partnership with you, UVM's best project and I believe you heard about that last week from some of my colleagues. We supported seven schools and three school districts with the foundational learning and coaching needed to integrate tier one restorative practices community building and relationship building into their schools. Implementation science shows that in order for systemic change to occur. It requires a deep commitment to change. And that is a multi year process three to five years at a minimum. This requires training coaching time and support for educators students and families. It also involves resources to support schools and understanding the importance of tier one community building and relationship building practices as the foundation of this change and how this paradigm shift will ultimately create safer schools where young people feel connected and a sense of belonging. We know that one year funding is not enough to support sense systemic change. And this we hope that this will be one consideration for the committee as you think about the purpose of this task force and we'll get into that in just a moment I'm going to turn it over to Evelyn. Beautiful. I just wanted to reiterate all of our gratitude for each and every one of you for providing us the space to really speak to you and to open your ears to what we have to say. We are very pleased to see that yesterday's version of the bill reflects the testimony of many of our colleagues and the people that we're in community with. We're particularly grateful to see the changing of the name on the task force to the task force on equitable and inclusive school environments. This is after all about school climate. We're thinking about behavior. Behavior is a reflection of the climate and the environment. And so when thinking about the ways in which students are in some of the most foundational times in their life when in school it's important that the climate reflects the climate and environment reflects the space in which we want our youth to grow. And so in order to create that space, we have to really center ourselves in equitable and inclusive school environments. So again, thank you and we have just a few more recommendations and considerations to add today, and we'll share these through our slides. Thank you. Yes. Yeah, as a go ahead. We can give one of you a sharing experience sharing so we're giving you. Yeah, thank you. We'll give you. You are now co-host so please share. Okay. See, so we first wanted to start with some just considerations and we know there's been a lot of thought and energy around this bill. And we were really, really pleased and grateful to see all the considerations that already have taken place in the markup. And so we just have a few more pieces to add. The first one really is around the root cause and I think this got brought up less and multiple testimonies as well. But we know that the behavior is not the root cause. It's for young people it's a lack of belonging connectedness wellness relationships and engaging learning opportunities. Those are likely the root causes, not to mention the institutional and structural racism and ableism. Those are root causes. You know we look where I think Lynn just pointed out that the invite changing the name to equitable and inclusive environment is really important because the environment is what creates the conditions for for for young people to feel that sense of belonging connectedness feeling well feeling whole and engaged. Yes, representative Austin. Slash Sarita. I just think it might be helpful to define ableism. Yeah. Abel is them Evelyn do you want to want me to define it do you want to define it. I will let you define it and then if I have anything to add I'll pop it. Thank you. Yeah. So we think about able bodied individuals. I mean, we're really thinking here around like young people who like we make assumptions in in our in our school system that all young people are physically emotionally intellectually this, you know at the same place and that's not the case. And so it's not providing the resources accessibility inclusivity for all young people, no matter how they learn, no matter what challenges they face. And so ableism is part of our, you know we make a lot of assumptions about young people what what they can or cannot do. And so I'm not sure if that's the most dictionary definition, but but it really gets at the fact that we, as adults, make a lot of assumptions within our system about what young people who have different identities, different learning capabilities, what they can and cannot do. Thank you. I'm going to pass it over to towns. Yeah, awesome. I wanted to talk a little bit about my personal experience working with students who have maybe struggled with, you know, following some of the rules that were at my school. So last year in the year before I was part I was a youth I wasn't really involved with the program at you 32 that replaced our detention program, where essentially detention worked essentially, like if a student broke a certain rule, they'd be sent to a room where they'd sit in that room for an hour and a half and they wouldn't do any work and they, you know, a lot of times were verbally harassing the person who was overseeing detention, and it never changed anything. Students, you know, never learned anything. It just it really was not effective in changing people's behavior. So, the program that was that replaced it, which was facilitated by myself and by assistant principal Jerry Emerson at you 32, and also like some other youth members of the restorative justice panel, depending on who was available was called community. And the way that worked is that instead of being sent to detention students would come have a conversation with me and Judy, and we'd sit in her office, and we would talk about what happened, and then eventually when we got past that we would have snacks and we would ask each other questions, and we would learn about each other and it proved to be significantly more effective than detention. Whereas, and when detention was implemented, we would often see students revisiting detention over and over and over and over again throughout their time at you 32 whereas with community. We only ever had one or two students who returned for multiple sessions community proving much more effective at changing people's behavior. And what I learned. So, one of the most common things that people were sent to community for was skipping class. And what I learned talking to people who skipped class was that the main reason they skipped class was because they felt they didn't have anything to offer to their class. The students who skipped class had such a mindset about, you know, their own ability to contribute. And they honestly believed that they had nothing to contribute to the class, and that in a lot of situations were actively hampering the classes discussions and the way that the classes progressed. And so they skipped class because they felt that like they, they, regardless of what anyone else in the class thought, they felt like they weren't, they weren't helpful and that they wouldn't improve anything. So they skipped, because they would rather, you know, be doing something that that where they felt valued they'd rather be be hanging out with their friends with people who actually who they felt cared about them. And to me this is probably the one of this shows me at least that the one of the largest factors in students behavior is feeling like they have something to contribute because you know obviously I was having lots of conversations with these kids and I could tell that they had something to contribute to their class. I could tell that they had really, they were really knowledgeable in some areas and really passionate about others. I could tell that, but it was clear to me that they couldn't tell that, and also that for a lot of their time in school. They had been told by people in power that they didn't have anything to contribute that they were disruptive that they were, you know, that they were ruining the class that they were interrupting other people's learning and they had really taken that and internalized it to the point where they you know they believe that they didn't have anything to offer. And that that was why they were skipping class, and that was what was affecting their behavior. And it took, you know, having conversation with me and Jody to start realizing that, you know, they they clearly had something to offer their class and that they clearly weren't a part of it. And, you know, it was so much more effective than any other than any kind of punitive discipline in changing their behavior and in making them feel like an important part of the community, and in creating a more supportive environment for them. And, yeah. Sorry towns did you want to keep going. No, no we're good. Awesome. Thank you times I think that just points to the depth of how necessary and deeply rooted. This work is when we know that our own students, our own children in this state feel as though they do not feel valued. And so when exploring what our next steps are in order to really honor their reality in our education system. It means we need to radically reimagine discipline data. And so ask ourselves, what is the current data going to show us that is different from what we already know. And we'll talk about this more but we have so much data. There are plenty of case studies thinking about what's happening already to reduce and eliminate exclusionary practices. So we look to schools and districts that are implementing restorative approaches in a critically conscious manner, and centering our youth and their experience in the data collection. So I'm thinking about this, for example, Burlington School District, when you see school district are really diving into that restorative practices piece, really diving into what their students and youth are looking for. So when you think about this, it really feels essential for us to be putting our youth at the forefront, having them be a part of our data collection. There's so much information from the outside, looking in that we need to really know what what students reality is on the day to day basis and I think towns talked a lot about that is that is what we need to be looking at. We don't have members, but we really need to touch base with our youth who are in school every day to think about their reality. And that's what this task force needs to be doing is to be diving in. Because we often begin this practice of returning to looking for more information and pulling in more and more and more and more and more data. So we need to continue this action and conversation and dialogue in listening from the heart and really, really centering them, because we can't be doing education in any other way than to prioritize our youth. So thank you and I'll pass it to our next person. Thank you I'm good it would like to just I see representative Brady has a question representative Brady. Yes. I just want to know while we're on that I, because I've been working on this bill and meeting with folks on the language I've learned a lot about the data that exists over the last week, and would have probably advocated for some of the same things you're noting here, but there are a lot of limitations, legally around state and federal laws and student privacy that while it might that are going to preclude the ability of some of those kinds of of data so I just, I fully acknowledge, you know the spirit of the suggestions and there are, again ones I would have brought to this initially but I've learned a lot about what some of those limitations are around privacy and it has a tremendous impact on the data we can collect for particularly something like case studies or individual student stories are going to be problematic for us to put into any kind of policy here. I just wanted to note that while we're looking at it. I appreciate that. You can collect it but government really can't. Yes. Yes. And I think, you know, when referring to case studies it's looking at districts that are already doing this work. And what are they finding just in general terms around, you know, belonging relationships connectedness reductions and you know disciplinary actions. And I don't, and I understand the laws, you know around privacy for young people, but I think it's, you know, trying to figure out what are the other types of data sources that could help us really understand the full issue here. So, yes, I agree with the privacy piece, and we were hoping that even in the work that we do it up for learning, you know, when we, when we go through our process with schools with youth participatory action research, youth are engaging the community in collecting data around whatever it is that they're the issue that they are focusing on, but it's not individualized data, you know, they're looking at a community community wide data so I wonder where that might where there's a little bit of a balance there to have like, looking at individual school districts, I don't really I don't know all the ins and outs of that so. And we can certainly bring these things to the advisory. The beauty is is that we don't have to answer all of these things now. Exactly. Okay, Representative Brady, did you have more on that. Okay. Representative Austin. Thank you. When I look at data and, you know, I think the disciplinary data is tough but when I'm looking at data for academic performance. Like I will look for like a poverty rate of the school and then I'll look at their proficiency scores and what I would find glaring let's say smiley school outside of Richmond, you know, they had a really high percentage of poverty, but also very high proficiency score and that would stand out to me. It's like what is that school doing that is getting such good academic scores so I wonder if we looked at the kind of the we have the behavior you know if the number of suspensions and expulsions in data but looking at that have much lower, maybe similar profiles that have much lower percentages of students being expelled or suspended and then, you know, asking the question like what are they doing. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was restorative practices you know so that would just kind of confirm that this works that this method works. I can, I can confirm that for you actually because I do know a bit about smiley I don't know a ton but a school like smiley smiley was a part of the restorative approaches collaborative work over 2019 2020. The schools in MMU USD, we're all part of that. So when you look at what are they doing, they're centering social emotional learning and relationships that is at the top. We know, I mean I know as an educator and the data shows that that when young people are when they have that time to connect to be engaged in and when social and emotional learning is at the top of the list and relationships. You know what their academic outcomes that comes along with it doesn't you know that's, that's the outcome of feeling a sense of connection belonging. So I know that smiley has done a lot of really, really good work when you think of a school like smiley. It doesn't matter. Like, the circumstances of a young person what they bring with them does matter. And, you know, their, and it comes down to those pieces, engagement, engagement and social emotional learning and when those are prioritized as, you know, those are the priorities of a school, the academic pieces that you see, you know there's a direct correlation so I know that you get that too. I didn't know about. I want to keep keep our pace going as well I know that that some of us have tremendous amount of background and interest in this but I also want to use this time to help us in developing the bill that we is before us. So I want to. I'm not sure who is next. Thank you. Yeah, I just wanted to agree echo and echo the house, we mentioned previously it's the, the culture and environment of our students that determines their behavior. And so this next piece is a language consideration and ask 16 and thinking about transformative policies. Anti racist anti ableist which pulls us back to that ableism piece and racism piece and trauma informed practices, making sure that we are youth centered parent and caregiver centered making sure that they are part of this work and thinking about who where the data is coming from. Who's a part of this work. And then finally, this two and four versus with, and I'll pass it over to towns to talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, yeah. So, a lot of times in restorative justice and restorative practices we characterize different forms of discipline as, you know, to foreign with essentially meaning that a punitive approach to to discipline is doing things to people. You know, a permissive approach to discipline is doing things for people, and a restorative approach discipline is doing things with people. And if there's one thing that I want everyone here to really keep at the forefront of their mind in regards to this bill. It is the importance of doing of every part of this process being done with. Young people and with and with people in schools. Um, you know, for learning we do a lot of work around youth adult partnerships. That's that's something that that is constantly in our minds and what that means essentially is that youth are equal partners in in an action. They share the responsibility and the resources with the adults and actively work together. And I think it is not just important that this bill, you know, include youth voice and that the task force include youth voice it is necessary, it is, you know, the most important thing to me. Because ultimately, there is no point in changing a system, if you are not hearing from the people who those changes affect. And I think that it is not only important to include youth. It is important to share in the power with them. It is important that you aren't just using youth as as a resource, but that you are supporting their the ideas that they come to the table with you are working with a lot of the times when I see youth working with adults, it is where adults go go to youth and are like hey, we need help with this thing what do you think. And then you say, oh, this is what I think about this and the adults leave, and they and then they develop everything from everything from there. That's not true youth adult partnership. True youth adult partnership is, you know, the youth being involved every step of the way. And that is to me that the most important thing that that could be done. And is is the way of ensuring that the changes to schools that are made our are effective. So we had just some recommendations for change and one was fairly straightforward, but also, maybe not so straightforward, maybe complex in the bill. And we would ask that you create a definition or this task force creates a definition for what most serious student behaviors are, because the concern is if it's not defined that schools are going to interpret this in many different ways, which is just going to further the inequities in our educational system. And we've seen that with a lot of other really transformative policies that we'll talk about x 77. You know, if it's not really defined fully, then how it gets interpreted interpreted can be either detrimental for young people are truly transformative so we really hope that this task force will could create a definition for what that means most serious student behaviors. Evelyn, what did you want to add to that. Yeah, I wanted to offer just my own personal experience with that that sort of non when things aren't clearly defined. And so within the past around eight to 10 months, when you ski has when you see students for anti racism which is a youth group that I work with, has brought anti racist demands to our school district. And in the process of implementation of those demands that are that are centered in anti racism. One of them was the removal of the SRO and replacing it that role with two trauma specialists. And throughout the past two weeks to a month we've really dove in on this as the the school board decision on whether to keep or remove the SRO role was this past Wednesday. And a part of this, this dialogue which became really challenging was many of our youth and was saw was saw and then and then folks in the community saw this figure as a disciplinary figure. So someone who disciplines students. And in having conversations with our youth at when you see school district was saw when you see students for anti race somewhere informed that the school, the school resource officer is not in fact a disciplinary figure and is in fact a discipline is a nuanced term. And so when there isn't clear definition, it's really challenging to convey specifically why we're working towards specific goals. And so our goal as centered in anti racism was to remove the disciplinary figure that has been centered in racism for the and the entirety of its, of its, you know, the system of policing. And with that nuanced term, it takes all the power out of out of what we're speaking about because there's there's room for interpretation. So while the school does not determine as discipline, and many youth don't, and many youth do, and many of our multilingual community, as we're a refugee settlement town, a lot of those folks did refer to, to the SRO as a disciplinary figure and they appreciated that and so with the differing interpretations again it just makes it really challenging to know specifically what the next steps are when something occurs and I'm thinking about most serious student behaviors. If there's different interpretation there's going to be room for those inequities to to bleed into the ways in which we make decisions. And so they may be rooted in systemic inequalities because that's the way that things are always done. When the reality is that we need to be pushing for other alternatives. And so having those clear definitions is really the way to begin to explore that and make sure that everybody's on the same page. I'm also thinking about parents, how essential it is for them to understand specifically what their students, what the expectations of their students are within school, and, and what it looks like for them to be safe and for them to be, you know, students, and the difference between youth behavior and something that is is serious and dangerous to a student themselves or others, and, and what that looks like. So thank you. I'm going to pass it to you and I represent a Brady you've made a note of that I'm quite sure. Thank you. Yeah, I just point out quickly the bill actually does call for the task force to define the most serious behaviors. After considering that should remain eligible for suspension or expulsion. That's actually a specific task for the group. Thank you. Thank you for pointing that out. From representative James. Thanks and thank you so much for being here today. I'm curious to explore a little bit. The, the bill includes two students on the task force. And so when you talk about you know centering students voices and the importance of students voice, which I agree with. What is that, what does that look like to you. How, how is that different from putting students on that on the task force. For me personally I think the main difference comes in the level of power and responsibility that is given to the students, I think that, and also in the way that the students are used in the context of the task force. If, if students are brought on, not as, you know, resources to be used but as full partners to share in the work and to kind of to, you know, be people who are respected and choose ideas and thoughts are actively sought out and then supported. I think that that's a step in the right direction. I, I think it would in my ideal situation. I think it would also involve not it would also you froze up for a moment. Yeah, thank you for also reaching. Thank you for using town. Towns you want to try turning off your camera out to youth in that. The most important thing for me is that youth on the panel. I don't know if, you know, to youth representatives is enough to fully hear from the diverse experiences of young people, but I think it's a great start and I think that if that is supplemented by the task force, you know, when when when task force for example, looks at schools that have a successful or an unsuccessful disciplinary system, looking at the hearing from the experiences of young people at those schools and talking to them directly instead of looking at raw data and talking to the administrators at the school but also going directly to the youth to people who are most impacted and hearing from them. And that is towns that is something that is available to the group as they're working they can ask for testimony, they can ask for groups to come in and testify before them. So we don't actually need to add everybody we just make need to make sure that there's an avenue for them to be heard and participate. Yeah, so that would be would be available. Yeah and participate in a meaningful way the only thing I'm thinking about is and I don't know what you think of think about this or what you think about this chair web but you know so the two students are appointed just like all the other task force members. So they're they've got the same seat at the table as as everybody else. But who those students are is going to be critical obviously to sort of achieving the kind of represent representation and outreach that you're, you're talking about towns and I don't know where sometimes we don't know where like, sometimes I don't know where language originated from. And it, it mentions here that the two students would be appointed by the Vermont principles Association. And perhaps it's worth considering that those two, I don't know where that idea came from I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea but maybe those two students could be appointed by another organization that would be a little bit more boots on the ground here. I think that would be that's a great idea. Something I run into a lot is I tend to run into the same students over and over and over again, when I am like you know, involved with restorative justice groups. And I think it's really important that students who that you know, you're capturing a more diverse student voice so I think that's a great idea. Yeah, I agree towns and whether it's the VPA or it's, you know, another organization, you know, up for learning works with schools across the state with youth and adults that are doing this work. And so, you know, if you're looking for, you know, the youth that are not maybe always asked to be at the table we could certainly help with that too. We also have a really robust youth advisory council. And, but I, but I do think that we have a good pulse and read on youth that are involved in this work in their schools. So we can certainly, you know, I think it was just, we just pulled the Vermont principles association out but we could certainly look at it, you know, when we mark this up we could look at you as being a potential appointee. And we'd be happy to and and I would just add and I think I'm just going to skip forward Evelyn and and then we can go back if we have time. One of the one of the memberships that's not listed is middle school youth and Evelyn Towns and I had a conversation about this as a former middle level educator. The perspective of middle school youth is critical because we know, or as a middle school educator I knew that is a make or break stage in their life. Like all the data says that you know, by that age group they have really been given the messages about their path in the future and which you know what what that's going to be. And so, why just high school youth, you know, is it, is there a rationale behind that and towns I know you're going to speak to the middle school piece to. Yeah, absolutely. I've talked to a lot of middle schoolers, and I think that my personal experience has been that their input has been invaluable and is often very separate from the experience of people in high school. And that oftentimes they have insights that are not present in, in an insight that someone in high school might have. And, you know, it comes back to the part of asking the talking to people who are who are going to be most affected by the decisions the task force makes and middle school schoolers are absolutely a group that that are going to be effective and therefore should be heard from. Thank you. So I think I'll move forward, I think this was towns just talking about just building off of the data and then moving into policy right, we have just a couple more pieces. Yeah, absolutely. So, a lot of the times in other I see people come in when they're discussing things like atmosphere and environment and culture in a school, they talk about data collection. And I think the truth is that all of this data has for the most part already been collected. It's really important that as a task force a task force move past data collection, and start working immediately on actual steps, and on implementing that data, and what has already known and has been known for years into a plan to, you know, positively impact school community and school environment. So all of these questions. We have answers to and data has been gathered both both on a statewide level and in in schools individually. And so it stops being about asking questions like how many youth are engaged in their learning as I was believing about asking questions like how can we engage you with more in their learning and then creating a plan based on that. I think and then the the building off of that piece. Evelyn I didn't interrupt you did I think I'm here right yeah building off of that piece. Looking at how to get this time we hope the task force will connect their recommendations to the promising practices that are already in place, for example, act 77 flexible pathways that's about student engagement. Can we engage you so that they have flexible pathways to graduation based on proficiency based graduation requirements and personalized learning. That's already in play act one. So if act 77 is the the pathway and how Act one is the what how do we create you know learning opportunities that are truly equitable and and center all people's experiences in the educational experience experience. And then there's current proposed bills like h106 around community schools that is so connected to this as well. So many connections, so that the hope is that you're not creating another silo with this task force, you're actually creating like a synergy amongst all of these promising policies and practices that are in place. I'll turn it over to Evelyn. Just a question of Austin, did you have a question. Sorry. It was, it was kind of went back just I'm wondering if the youth risk behavior survey, if they asked different questions. Like maybe if you were involved in developing that survey, if that would be a vehicle that might serve to get that data. So up for learning has obviously with our getting to why program where we have youth and adults towns been a part of that analyzing their own local youth risk, youth risk behavior survey data, and then creating change. That's been a big part of our of our work over the past 13 years. And we have in our partnership with the health department. We have. They are very, very supportive of incorporating youth voice in, but it's been a slow moving process just like all of these pieces. We just recently in this last in this in the most current wire BS. We have youth actually contribute to some of the questions. Some of the questions are standard CDs, CDC questions they come their national questions, and then others Vermont does have the ability to create some, and they have brought youth into the process of creating questions so that is really promising as well. Thank you. Thank you for the questions really appreciated. I wanted to offer some more, some more thoughts on transformative policy and provide another just continuation of what I was talking about on the SRO and related to transformative policy and then also related to all of the things this this bill will support and thinking about how to create that equitable and inclusive space and environment in school, a lack there of of equity and truly rooted inclusivity, we're harming our students. And so when I think about when you ski school district, who I love there, they are my school and I care for them very deeply, and the, the school board decision was to retain the SRO position. And that's harming our students. And so, in not creating transformative policy that deeply deeply identifies where the root causes of harm are, we are not creating a system that's that's designed specifically for our students. So, as you know, a high school senior, I feel so deeply connected to our youth and our students it is our job to make sure that education is designed for them. And in order to truly make sure that they are safe, and that they belong, and that their school environment as they enter in preschool through 12th grade, as we prepare them for the world. That we are deeply truly making sure that the spaces in which they are learning are equitable, and that they are inclusive. And so that looks like creating transformative policy that really identifies those spaces and uses the data that has been collected in order to make that happen. We just we've already talked about the middle school youth, but we'd hope that also there is a really robust group of practitioners, educators, higher ed folks that are part of the restorative approaches collaborative this was the collaborative that was formed. When the agency of education created an RFP for a professional provider for restorative approaches in schools it was a one year contract up for learning was the lead fiscal agent, and I was part of the coordination team with the best project. There's a group of 40 plus practitioners who have worked in schools across the entire state. I should also mention community justice center staff members are part of that as well. And I would, I know that there are a lot of people that are on this committee or this task force already, but thinking about the folks that are doing the work in schools to create these kinds of changes. It'd be really would be really helpful to have a member of the restorative approaches collaborative engaged in that. Okay, go ahead. Who's the director. Who's the director of that so the coordination team was myself from up for learning and Amy Wheeler Sutton from the best project. We are in a, it's a voluntary coordination right now because we had a one year. We had a one year contract with the AOE so we are kind of holding this Vermont restorative approaches collaborative group. We have a website, vtrack.org which has a ton of resources as part of our contract to create a virtual library and resource and we have a directory, but so you can reach out to me and I am you know and either of us could put the call out. I will say that one of the challenges we always have in this committee, we always have an all committees is having a task force that has enough members but not too many members. And then, who do you cut and who do you keep, and it can feel very personal when we're doing that, and we will sometimes end up with. There's a certain number that works really well together. And then there's one where it just really gets to be too many. Okay, we certainly would appreciate you taking a look at it and if we sort of limited there's got to be a limit here somewhere and probably is 18 is probably where it should be. Agree. What's the most what who do we really need on this, and who do we already know about them. We can ask them later but who needs to be sitting at the table. People that are doing the work youth. I would, you know, you're, I think that, you know, that is the people that are in the field doing the work are the people that need to be part of the task force. There are a lot of people that are designees to appoint others. Evelyn, do you want to speak to the creation of the task force or the steering committee that we just created in when you ski and how that, you know. Yes, for sure. So I was sort of my piece on where I'm feeling when you ski is I'm having some trouble with when you ski. But now here's some joy. And so we have we we meaning Lindsay and myself and some really key essential folks at when you ski school district have spent many months creating a steering committee that will hold the communication and definition and organization of what anti racism looks like at when you ski school district and a part of that is the demand groups. And so each group would handle one of the demands that was brought to the school board. And the part like really deeply rooted in what we wanted this to look like was having it be radically inclusive. And that sounds kind of crazy and way out there, but really it's just making sure that everybody is a part of this work. And so, as I previously mentioned when you ski has is a multi lingual community. So we met with our home to school or school home home school liaisons. So our major language communities, Nepali Somali Swahili, etc. And decided how to best approach these communities in order for them to be able to easily access the information we wanted to give them and for them to be able to be present with us. Lindsay and I held two informational sessions with translation available for folks who wanted to come and ask for their questions. We had trans translated flyers that we put up around when you ski school district. And in the end I think we had around 25 people apply, and we had 20 people who are selected. And while not representative of Vermont, it was representative of when you ski in terms of race and gender we have five youth. Who are a part of what saw and they are some of the most incredible people on planet Earth they're going to run help run a three hour training on what was saw is all about. And they're in middle and early high school. And so just thinking about how asking yourself the questions like how do we pull in these people who are not traditionally centered. How do we pull in these people that history is erased that are so essential to this work and moving forward in education we have to be prioritizing these people. We have to be creating that transformation and that looks like asking ourselves those questions. Yes, thank you Evelyn I know that it says that the appointing organizations will ensure that there's racial diversity but we're taught you know how are they going to make sure that this task force is inclusive and offers whatever is needed to make people like they are part of this work and so it's one thing to invite people to the table but it's another to create the environment and the atmosphere and the climate for people to work together to create change so Yeah, I think just thinking through like what what needs to happen in order to make this group of this task force, one that is inclusive of of all people but most importantly those that have been just marginalized by the system. Since we are talking about creating equitable and inclusive school environments. So the original build I'll just say the rich that came over from the Senate actually listed characteristics of a group but had them all appointed by the secretary and their indication for thinking that way had to do with the fact that they thought that they, they would be able to bring in people that maybe weren't what as we call them the usual suspects. So, do you have any comments on whether that idea would be better than us having groups appointing, leaving it leaving it to the secretary to do the appointments where he has more flexibility to choose from different groups. I guess the one person. Yeah, I think like, what is the system, you know, like how do people have knowledge about how to be part of this task force. I think this gets at a larger piece or that Evelyn in towns could likely speak to is like, who has access to this process and who who does not. Who is this process, you know, for and who was it not for and how are people, you know, I think it's better to have multiple folks that are in different communities doing the reach out than one person. I wouldn't, you know, I think, but I think what Evelyn was speaking to is like, creating the protocols and systems to ensure that people had knowledge about it. There was actually an application process so like that to us felt like that was something, you know, and an application process that was one that was, you know, if people needed assistance with the application they could get assistance. So again, is it just like, if it was my organization to saying well I know a couple of young people that are really great, they can be part of this like is that truly an equitable way to create this task force. At the same time, we don't want to prolong this this the task force like the main point here is to get to action right and so I think it's great to have people appointing from their communities or their organizations. But I think that that the language should be to really the hope is that they are looking for diverse perspectives. Evelyn or towns, do you have thoughts on that. Yeah, I think I, you know, generally agree with everything that you've said, and you know, I think that when you're considering, you know, who to talk to and who to involve. It's really important that you, you know, in you take the time to, to truly find a diverse group of people and that it, you know, I understand that time is an issue. But I think that it is more important to do something effectively and well and well considered. And have it take a long time then to not do it as well and have it take a shorter time. Okay, so I see we're at your last slide. And I want to make sure that you finish your presentation. We are thank you. So, I mean this is just this is not necessarily. It's connected and not connected but that, you know, based on the work that I helped to co coordinate with the Vermont restorative approaches collaborative that was a one year. One year of funding from the AOE to support schools in moving towards restorative environments. One year, it cannot be enough we know that it's a multi year process for systemic change. And, and so, just thinking, you know, forward to what is needed to really support schools is that they're the need for resources and to amplify the practices. These are the initiatives and I think that came across in the testimony last week to like, what are the, what are the practices that are powerful practices that we should see in every school advisory structures, culturally responsive curriculum, restorative approaches and emphasis on the practices and not initiatives. This is not a curriculum that you know a task force can say this is our recommendation. These are practices and they take time for you for educators and for communities to really understand what they are and how to, and how to really change their way of thinking their mental models. Thank you. We certainly do realize that the transformations that have happened in when you ski did not happen in a couple of weeks, or even a couple of years. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. And final thoughts. I don't think so I think we said, I think we said everything I had to say just to really sit with it. And how can we, how can we engage you if that's, I know we've pushed that a lot but just thinking about all of those opportunities. I think it's very clear to us that this didn't come to us asking if there was a problem that has already been declared. And now what are we going to do about it. So that's what we are looking for us to do to advise. On a statewide basis, this probably won't be done in a couple of weeks or a couple of years. Let's put us on the road. Indeed. Towns any other final thoughts from you. I think, I think that, you know, everything that I could say has already been said. And I think that it. I hope that that going forward, the You know, just keep in mind. The importance of Taking action. I think is something that I don't want to stress is that it's very, very important that The The Task Force be action focused and able to like To implement change and be able to receive feedback on their implementation and adjust course as necessary. Just I think that that it's very important that instead of talking about these issues. We start doing something about them. Yeah. Thank you. Very much appreciate appreciate having you we also this committee happens to really appreciate hearing from students as well. That's always important to us. And we miss last year when our committee room would be full of students. So we really appreciate that to have you join us today. And we will take your recommendations into account. I think we've heard them. And thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for accommodating towns and Evelyn schedule it's not easy for young people to be able to show up to testify just with their, with their schedule so thank you. We are more than we were more than happy to wait and not not complete this without their input. Yeah, just thank you again, sending you all so much gratitude I want to make sure that's really communicated so much gratitude. Attitude back to you as well. We are going to continue a little conversation on some of the questions on the bill at this point so I appreciate your input very much. All right, we will leave then. Thank you. Take care of one. Thank you. Brady, you had started us. Some of our markup questions you, you and Representative Conlon worked with a few folks this morning. Looking at areas under development in this bill. So we have three points of a committee decision. I emailed you and Peter and Jesse to with this list. A bunch of things we don't need to deal with number one is the task force. So that is on page starts on page four. We've gone back and forth on numbers of how many in it so we need to make a decision on how big it is and whether it's up to the agency to appoint people from certain groups or to stick with specific, specific groups, the NEA and BPA joined us today in a long meeting to work on the language and continue to support the idea of naming specific groups to be involved in the work or what it's worth. Put that question out. So, yeah. I think that the committee wants to continue to that we will define the people who will appoint as we had started versus the Senate bill that had had the secretary. So are we continuing on that, that road. Just going to see a thumbs up. Is there a document that needs to be put up or not that you were working on representative Brady. Okay, I just have my notes but working on the latest version of the bell so on, we're on page four of it. Do you want us to pull up the bill. No, I'll pull it up I just didn't know there was another had done revisions on the day. So question then within that list. I'm actually not sure on page five line 12 where one member appointed by the National Center on restorative justice at the Vermont law school, where that one came from. Not either. And I would like, I would like to see it be the collaborative that the restorative justice collaborative that we were just hearing about and we got the grant request, you know from them, Kate. It was related to their work on that but given that that organization already exists it was done in coordination with AoE in 2019. I was switching that out. Swap that out. I'm seeing head nodding. Swap that out. Okay. Anybody again. The student thing we obviously just talked about but do we leave that up to VP I do we want to make that up for learning to decide. We got a text from from principles they said that was fine. We could have them for learning, we could have them be the naming agency but put in language just as in coordination with up for learning. Great. Let me just put that in the draft. Yeah. I'm thinking with the overall number of a giant task force. Do you want to try limiting it. How many do we have 19. I know I would think to see your 14 is about perfect. Yeah, I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this. Yeah, but the two teachers. I don't know. We have we have the NEA or desert me right. That's the other way of looking at it to look at the secretary that you know so you'll get. They could. That would be three then from the NEA. And depending on decisions we make going forward, we probably do not need the executive director of Vermont dependent schools association. I wondered about that one too. Okay. I don't like it. So take off the two teachers named by any I quite yet. I don't know about that. That's a hard one. I wouldn't feel a little harder. Yeah. So, so we're picking off independent schools, but we do want a therapeutic school. That's on there right. Oh yeah. That's on there for independent schools, isn't it? There's the executive directors on there too. Do we need the ACLU? I don't think I mean, but we've got legal aid from our family network. To me, there's a little bit of redundancy there. I would agree. And the ACLU is probably stretched pretty thin. Yeah, I guess that's why I'm. They testified, but I don't remember. Yeah. And we can put it in a draft and we can, we can send it to them and say. For the next language for the next draft. So we're striking. We don't have, we don't have Jim in the room right now. So I'm just taking notes to get back to Jim. So we're taking out ACLU. Yeah. I'm seeing some yeses. Yeah. Yeah. So we're not voting. It's not permanent yet. We haven't voted. We're not voting it out. We're taking off J, the executive director of the mon independent schools. Yep. So I just have a question about that. Before you ask. Rep James, I think I can anticipate your question. Thank you. As we go through the bill, what we're going to discover is that. There's no data. We almost need to write this bill. We don't have to. They don't have to collect the same data. They don't, you know, so anyway, as long as that's how the bill is currently reading or becomes to read, that's fine by me then. Yeah. That's why I suggested taking out that person. And I said, depending on how we progress through the bill. Okay. And it's a question perhaps for a later discussion, but it's not, it's not, it's not on the emergency fast level. So, so where we are right now, we just took out G. I think it's a little bit of a moment. We're looking at taking out N. Yep. We're looking at swapping the restorative justice. For the other group for the collaborative. Yep. I'll give Jim the language on that. Yep. So we've deleted two. So that brings us to 17. Yeah. We could, we could cut a teacher. Rather than both. I don't know. I don't feel right. And we have the director of up for learning or a designee. We were going to have that at the moment, we have the students appointed by up for learning, I think. I think. Having the director or designee. I mean, I feel that like, you replace somebody, could you knock somebody off to bring them in? I want to either. One of the teachers. I mean, I just, we just, we just swapped out. The collaborative, which I think is. Includes up for learning. For the. National Center for restorative justice. They are, they are not going to be without influence here. Yep. I mean, I just, I've seen what Lindsay, I'm just going to say here. I've seen what Lindsay has done in terms of bringing about change throughout Vermont. In terms of being a huge advocate for student voice. On the collaborative. I think her organization is. But I would really. If we want to accomplish what we want to accomplish. I think we have to have her voice at the table. I think we have to have her voice at the table. I think we have to have her voice at the table. Committee. I think you've made your point. I'm personally not. Well enough informed as to the definitions of what best is what up for learning is. And I, and I know that we've expanded the name of this task force. But it's still pretty narrowly focused on suspensions and expulsions. I think that's an important reminder that this is focused on suspension and expulsion. It's not, it's not necessarily focused on restorative practices, much as that's where we're going. But right now we have a problem with, with those two issues. So. What's the committee's preference? I guess I just, I'm frantic. I'm trying to Google. So if, if Lindsay's organization is part of the collaborative. I guess I'm just trying to think the odds of her being the appointee anyway, without making the. This longer. Is there a redundancy with. Best. And. Having. Lindsay on there. Or. Or organization. That's what it just seemed like we're kind of in the same sphere of. Yeah. So I was in and work. So I don't know. I think it's just too big overall. So I'm, I just am really hesitant to say adding any more specifics. And I agree. I agree. Without moving so very off. I agree. You know, one of the problems with these tasks force. These task force. Things are. Most of the time when they meet. Eight or nine people show. And the other ones don't. Having been part of. Some of this in the past. Not everybody shows it's kind of difficult. You know, You know, They can always and obviously the work. Most of the time really doesn't get done. They can always bring somebody in to speak too. That's over and above the membership. Right. They can bring in. They can bring it in whomever they want. So I don't know what we're down to. At this point. If we're not touching the teachers for down to. So you want to. 17. Bring us to 17. I mean, do we need the superintendents, the school boards, the principals? I was looking at the same thing. Could we say, I just wonder that's a lot there too administrator. Yeah, someone who's an administrator. Yeah, let's knock off either the principals or the superintendents. I'm inclined to think that the principals actually know better what's going on in the schools. I mean, they've been more involved. I mean, Jays, then much more tuned into this than. Let's take off the superintendents. I would take off the superintendents as well. Do policy and the principals are in the, in the buildings. And then take it down to one teacher. So what are you thinking? Ooh, then we get down to 15. Ooh. I like that number. Yeah, let's, let's keep going. Is the director of the NEA. Need to be there. Because we already have two teachers appointed by. No, we don't. We used to have two. Now we have one. We're going to go one teacher. Yeah. Okay. So we don't need the executive director of the NEA there. Well, I would want two teachers if we took out the NEA personally. I would agree with keeping two teachers if we're taking the NEA out. Yeah. Does it, doesn't it have to be an odd number? No. For votes. No, because you can't get all of them to agree anyway. So. Okay. I think that was amazing. Let's put it aside. Okay. By the way, I did, I did suggest to Kate that what the house of representatives needs is a committee whose job it is to just name people to committees and task force. Peter. Everybody's life. Let's put a task force together on that. Okay. Next decision point, page 10. If you're following along as the date of the report. I'm going to take a look at the. The, the A OE raise concern about the. How realistic it would be to stand up and get this work done by November 30th of this year. I hear you had a discussion around potentially. Having a two-part date that there's a sort of initial report and then a final. We're trying to get information in order to act on it and legislate. In 2022 around exclusionary discipline. But that might not be possible depending on how we. Structure the timeframe of their work, because if we aren't getting a report until April of 2022, it is too late in the session. About January. Can this January. We talked about. January one. And we also talked about it. You know that there's that's the initial, the final wasn't due until. Later. Can we do January 15th? That's what I would suggest. And then we could get a, we could get a final. You know, March 15th or something that would at least get us to, that would get something started. We sort of went in the circle. Yeah. And then we started to. Compiling all of the data for the test force to look at might take a long time, but then what we were basically told was, well, actually they can't have very much data because it's all FERPA. And you can't really get at it. So they're not going to have that much data to have to worry about. So anyway, I think those two dates will probably work fine. Okay. So January 15th. Yes. And do you want to do January and March or just. April, I think January and March is the way to go. March 15th. That gets us kind of through crossover. You could start working on something. Okay. All right. Final thing for us left to resolve page 13. This is the big one. Are we. First decision is, are we going into independent schools? Are we applying this to independent schools? And then if so, how do we define independent schools? Is it independent schools that are approved or those that receive public dollars? I didn't realize there's a distinction. Some get the approval, but don't. So generally when we talk about independent schools, we're always talking about approved independent schools. Yeah. That taxpayer dollars could go there. Well, no, I think, I think rice, for example, is an approved independent school. But right. Yeah, somebody. You might have jumped off here that there's a, somebody. It was new info to me that there is a distinction. Yeah. That there are many of them. Ted Fisher that raised it. They're independent schools. They want the recognition of being approved in that name. But they don't actually take public dollars. That's right. That's right. Yep. They get the quality standards. Yeah. But they don't get the money. So. My concern here is first of all, I think everybody who knows me well enough knows that yeah, I'm all for applying the same rules across all systems. But the trouble we have right now is that. We will fuck farther up in the bill we talked about. Gathering the data from independent schools, but what the task force will learn is that there really is no data. They don't have to. Apply with it. But so that'll be a result that they'll find. But section seven here. I just don't want to slow this bill down. I have communicated with a mill about getting some feedback from the field on this. I haven't heard back from him. Hopefully we'll talk tonight or tomorrow morning. And I guess my concern is that if this turns into a thing. It could hold up a valuable bill that we need to move along. And that the task force can probably identify. And probably will identify. The inequity among. Approved independent schools that take taxpayer dollars and public schools. Yeah, something that can be applied later. So we, what you're recommending. Rep Conlon is that we leave it as written and not insert. Yeah. Yeah. Good. I agree. That is unless they get back to me and say, yeah, we don't really have a problem with that go for it. Unlikely, of course. Yeah, I don't want to slow this process down personally. I agree. Action. Are we. It seems like it's going to raise. It could turn this into a bill about independent schools. And I mean, there's, there's an issue there. No doubt. But those, if we lose, if we go down that road, we might lose the ability to deal with all schools. Yeah. And that rule is open right now in front of the school, not state board of education. The special independent school rule at least is open. So that's. Now. As I think somebody from the AOE said, you know, this, there's a whole broad. You know, a whole broad issue here about all things. All things dealing with approved independent schools to take taxpayer dollars and how they're treated versus public schools. And this would just be a tiny fraction of that. So. Maybe wait for the broader look. Okay. So does those, does that markup sound okay? That's all of ours. There's a few other things that are being changed. Jim's working on already based on discussions we had this morning, but those were the things that were left for Peter to do. Yeah. You know, I'd really decide or ask all of you. Thank you. Probably the biggest change from our discussion yesterday was. The findings portion about the data not being available. And then we found out that the data is available, but is it readily available or is it hard to get at. And that's being tweaked as well. Right, Aaron. Yeah. So that's going to be, I mean, in a sense kind of watered down quite a bit from what it is right now in the draft. I think we know that the 50s. The A O. E. Dr. Geller certainly had really compelling evidence that. There is a lot of data. It is maybe hard to understand, but it, it certainly felt like we were. Speaking may be a mistruth here about the A O. E. And that, you know, that, that is not the intent. So seven under findings is going to end up being Jim's getting final language from Ted Fisher on that, but we had a good discussion, I think we were. Thank you. There's kind of two bills in one here because this started as a exclusionary thing and then also Senator Sears data collection thing so it's a little bit messy and in some ways. And that sounds like he really was looking at national data and unaware of some of the things we're having in our own backyard so I think clarifying that so that it's Vermont specific would be very helpful, or at least includes the true picture of the data that we have. And, and I wanted to note, Rep James that he has the language to add a finding on LGBTQ T students as well. So that'll be added in the findings. Great. Okay, I think I'm, I'm looking around are we okay at this point to move on with those will get another draft. I'm still working on the Act one language for the support. I did, I was able to hear and we can, we can bring them on to back but I did hear that the agency did offer them before the everything shut down. Some of the things that were available from the agency of education to support the group, but they have not had an opportunity to access so I want to make sure that they have an opportunity to access the resources at the agency. As well as making sure that if those resources aren't there that there's an opportunity for outside. I've got something somewhere else if I can find it that shows that the resources that they did offer. And I think in the time with everything being shut down I think that they did access the agency one time for support on something. Representative James. Thanks Sherweb so are we going to be discussing that I'm sorry I didn't hear what you said was our next step on that. I'm trying to get some language related to I looked at the way it was written in Act one, and the act one language was pretty limited in terms of what was available. However, the agency did not take that as that's all we'll do for you is is schedule your meetings they they've made the offer to say we're available to help with other things as well. So I'm working on some language right now. Yes, whether either we're going to say expand the role of the AoE in writing if that would make everybody feel better. They're saying, you know, minutes things like that they're looking for technical support they're looking for those kind of things as well interpretation of language they were looking for those services are available within the agency. To be able to look to the agency first, and if that's not available then put potentially allow the create an appropriation for the for appropriations to seek additional outside support. Okay, yeah, because I just I just keep, you know, and, you know, hearing or thinking that there's this one very kind of distinct bucket of support that AoE can, can provide and will provide and, you know, looks forward to providing around interpretation and technical support and meetings and stuff like that. And then there's the beyond that the testimony that we heard from Amanda and from Boy, I apologize. Sorry, senior, almost senior moment about, you know, wanting a level of sort of lived experience and deep, you know, kind of knowledge of context of the Act one context in really reviewing those the standards and I think that's what they feel is, is, you know, maybe that's where they need to want to look to an outside consultant and go beyond AoE and I, I just don't want to rule that out now in case they need that over the summer after we adjourn. And I'm not sure that that's I didn't get the feeling from Amanda anyway that she thought that level of help was available at the AoE. We can bring them back. Representative Brown. Yeah, just to sort of add on to that I think I agree with that and I think what I was hearing is, you know, sort of beyond the lived experience and expertise that's part of the Act one working with that they need sort of scholarly and academic expertise around doing that standards work you know something and the group, as we've discussed is you know very talented and capable on their own right but I think even that, I think we've heard them say they need even that higher level from someone who's really done some deep academic work on these issues to really help guide them in an effective way. And I'm open to somebody wanting to come up with some language. And then we just have to figure out where how we fund it, whether we can make it available through federal funds or not. Or if it's general fund. It's right now the general funds, I could have a very hard time getting it from the general fund. But if we can figure out a way to tie it to federal funds, that'd be great. Anything else. Okay. We've lost it ourselves I don't know about you but I'm tired. So let's see about tomorrow. Tomorrow. Oh big day tomorrow on S 13. Yeah, tomorrow we will be taking up S 13. We are going to have invited Tammy Colby in that way that S 13 right now the primary focus of S 13 is the task force. And what are the questions that we want to pose to the task force. I mean I definitely heard some questions that were flying around today and I have some of my own, and, and rather than us trying to answer them in committee are these questions that should be put forward to the task force so I want people to think as we're going forward with that lens. As well. It's a big question that needs to be thoughtfully done. The purpose of a task force. We have a study but we didn't have an implementation plan. Thank you.