 Because you don't have to be an expert to have an opinion, and you don't have to be an expert to have an opinion, and for your opinion to be accurate and right. Hello, intelligent beings of this marvellous planet. Welcome to Learn From The Brands, our podcast for you from 42courses.com, where we learn bite-sized wisdom from the world's best brands. Today, we have an incredibly smart, charismatic and compelling guest. Mark Bowden has been voted the number one body language professional in the world for two years running. Mark is the founder of Communication Training Company, Truth Plane, whose clients include leading business people, politicians, presidents of Fortune 500 companies and prime ministers of G7 powers. With years of experience training people across the globe on how to use digital media most effectively, Mark is now even a trainer for Zoom, equipping their new employees with best practices around virtual communication. His TEDx talk has reached millions of people and he is regularly called upon by media to comment on body language around elections and debates, most recently appearing on The Dr Phil Show. Mark has written four books on body language and human behavior, including recent bestseller Truth and Lies What People Are Really Thinking. In case it's not yet clear he's one of the world's foremost authorities on non-verbal communication, I am personally thrilled to have him here today. Please welcome Mark Bowden. Thanks, Brent. Thanks for having me here. Really appreciate it. Thanks for the great introduction. And for people that don't already know you, Mark, shame on them, but please give them your branding. My branding? Oh, so like this, I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Yeah. And I wanted to start with this, Mark, because you work with actors I've heard in your past as well and CEOs and politicians. So which of these typically is the most narcissistic? Gosh, that's really, that's a tough one, because we've all got it. We've all got a little bit of that in us on a spectrum. And it kind of depends on, I mean, look, you've got people who are who are more narcissistic than other people. And I wouldn't pick on one particular trade around that. I think often it just depends on the situation. It's putting the people in the right context that triggers that and sometimes quite understandably pushes them into being self-centered, maybe a little more self-centered rather than narcissistic, which is a whole different other area. Just to speak a little bit about what you do in addition to the intro. Lots of people that are with 42 courses, they're in small companies and some are in big corporations around the world. And so what kind of training do you give to people over Zoom currently because of COVID conditions? What do you do for people in the workplace? Yeah. So what I'm really focused on at the moment, because right now we're hopefully coming towards the end of the health crisis that the world has been in for the last kind of year and a half, if not a little bit, a little bit more. So I've been really focused on how do you stand out when trusting and getting credibility via this modality here when there is a camera in front of you. And more specifically as well, from your work from home office, because the health crisis really changed our ideas and maybe ideals around what it is to be a professional communicator or communicate in a professional manner. So I've been helping people all over the world with that at all kinds of levels, including Zoom themselves. So I now train the Zoom executives, people who are now being onboarded into Zoom and the Zoom sales team in exactly how to do this really well. And actually you do one-on-one as well. And I've heard you in another podcast speaking, you even help people like in preparation for giving a eulogy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes, I mean, I've helped people in all kinds of situations. I've helped a number of people on eulogies, which is a really kind of, well, a very special thing to to be asked to get involved with and to help people with. Because, well, what a big, you know, it's a really big moment and a lot of people are watching and there's so much weight put on that moment, not only by other people in the, let's call it audience, but also on the person themselves giving that eulogy. They want to do it right. They want people to walk up to them afterwards. I mean, they want to do it right for that person, you know, who they're giving the eulogy of. They want to do it right for themselves and really express themselves. And they do quite rightly want people to walk up to them afterwards and go, that was really nice. Thanks very much for that. They want to do right by their audience as well. So there's a lot of factors in there to get right. And it's a lot of pressure. I haven't had to do it myself. But I have helped a lot of people with it. And it's been lovely when they've come back to me and said that went really well. And one of their main things is, is they don't want their emotions to take over to the extent that they cannot deliver it. They want to get that right combination of having really true feeling in there, but still being able to deliver it for the audience. And it is quite a hard thing to do. Yeah. And yeah, you talked about helping people and that's, you know, you're educating and that's a lot of what you do. And your book Truth and Lies, audio book. Nice. It's everywhere. You need to get it because it's what people are really thinking. And I would say if you're interested in people, you should read this book. Okay. And it was interesting for me when I started reading it. You jumped straight in with a body language myth buster, as it were. I think it might be your pet peeve about people. If you cross your arms, then, you know, if this, then that. Is this your pet peeve about the simplistic analysis? Yeah. If this, then that. Yeah. So often we call that absolutists. You know, if this, then that if crossed arms, then closed, which is just, well, that's true until it isn't. And it very often isn't true. And so that's okay if you keep getting that wrong, if you keep getting that analysis wrong. So long as there aren't very big stakes on getting it wrong. But there could be enough stakes on getting it wrong that it really messes things up by having that if if this, then that analysis. So really, Truth and Lies, what people are really thinking, and thanks for showing them those those digital versions, they're always great to see those. What I said is it is what it really is, is a book on critical thinking disguised as a book on body language. Because the publishers came to Tracy and myself and said, and said, Okay, we want you to book a reader, write a book on reading body language. And I said, Well, I don't really want to do that. There's so much out there already. Some of it's really already really good. Some of it's really not good at all. And I was just, I just didn't know what if anything I could really add to that because the previous books were on how to really present your body language to influence and persuade. And then the third book that I wrote was on how to deal with difficult situations tame the primitive brain how to deal with difficult what seemed like difficult people but really it's about how to manage yourself with an understanding of evolutionary behavioural psychology. So so this fourth book, they said, write a book on body language. And immediately we said, Yeah, no. And then thought about it for a few moments and went shouldn't have said no, actually should have should have said yes. And then went, Well, what would a really good book on reading body language be? And came up with this idea? Well, it would be a book on thinking better about people. How do you think more accurately about people? And how can you use body language to help and critical thinking more importantly, to help you think better about people. So to your point, Brent, you know, all the work that I do is really about understanding people better. And, and for me trying to help people have a better life by understanding people better. All I'm trying to do is trying to help. Yeah, that's all that's all I'm doing. And that there is a fantastic methodology in the book, I won't give it away because I want people to go and read the book. But it's like a little checklist for every situation so you can judge it in a better way. And I was just wondering, like, in your non work life outside of work, how do you use your body language skills in every day? So I try in terms of like consciously reading other people's body language, or, you know, better work use of the word is analyzing better, you know, analyzing what's going on. Try not to because, you know, that would be a really annoying person to be around, because it's like I'm consciously judging you while we're trying to get on and have a relationship together. And so you got to get the right combination of just trying to work out what matters and what doesn't matter. Like what is like if you are if you are lying to me, what does it matter anyway? Why is that so important? Giving that lying is one of our most important social skills, as is telling the truth. It more becomes about, are you lying to me when you shouldn't be? Or are you telling me the truth when you shouldn't be? That's the more and how's that and am I picking up on that? And how's that making me feel right now? And is that good? Or if it feels bad, should I just continue with it anyway? Because a bit of bad feeling is part of life anyway. And I've got to push on through and just manage that bad feeling that's coming. Because, you know, what could come at the end of that is a really strong, important relationship. So look, there's there's it's complex, it's human, it's this human dynamic. So it's super complex. What I try to do is create really simple models. So people can get in get a handhold on that complexity and hold on there for the long term, rather than relationships kind of slipping from them, or communication slipping from them, because they couldn't quite get a grapple on it, because it's super slippy and complex. Anyway, I'm not sure that really answers your question, but that's what came to mind for me. So are you able to switch it off? Are you able to switch all your expertise off? Or it's still there and you just don't react to it? Well, yeah. So the expertise, yes, of course, because because that's a critical thinking process. And that you really have to decide to do that, because it's quite it's not very critical thinking is not very energy efficient. So the brain doesn't really want to do it, it would rather make snap judgments. So, so critical thinking, yes, you have to switch switch on and it will switch off on its own pretty quickly, especially under stress and pressure, it'll just turn itself off. The snap judgments that I make, you know, my instinct, no, that's my instinct is no better than yours or anybody else's. Okay, our instincts, if you're alive and I'm alive, our instincts are pretty, our instincts are pretty good. Okay, the key is, is can I switch on my critical thinking, and therefore know that I might be able to think differently about the instinctual reaction that I've had, because my instinct is biased. And it's biased to my survival right now, and not biased towards truth or fact, or, or accuracy is probably the best way to say it. My instinct just like yours doesn't care about being accurate. Okay, it wants to be safe today, accurate tomorrow. And so and so that's why we have to question our instinct, but we don't have to. But if, if you are going to be a good analyst of people and nonverbal communication, you have to question your instinct, because your instinct is in it for you, not the majority out there. Again, I hope that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Another simplistic thing about that people talk about when they're entry level, body language analysis, let's say, is of course the famous handshake. And I just want to speak about, just go back five years, the Trump handshake, which was, you know, the media were obsessed with it. Trudeau, I think was the first to really, you know, to overcome it and come in extended arm coming in hot. Is it true Mark that you train Justin Trudeau? You know what, I don't tell anybody about the clients that I train. So even if I did or even if I didn't, there's no way that I would deliver that information right here, right now else. How would I ever, how would I ever work? But, but, but, you know, it could look, it could easily look like I did. I, you know, I can see that for sure. Okay. But leading on from that, there's an interesting sentence in the book. It says all body language is a display of power or a response to a display of power. Can you elaborate on that a bit? Yeah. So that's a model. That's a model about body language, which means it's not necessarily accurate, but it's helpful. So, so when you hear that, it would be very easy for somebody to go, well, hang on, I don't think it is. And that's fine. Like go away and go, I don't think it is and create your own model around this. This is my model. Okay. The all body language is a display of power or a response to a display of power. And the model really works if you understand power as just being the, that the interplay of forces, whatever forces are around. So look, I'm reacting all the time to the forces around me. I've got some, I've got some big lights here and now and again. And every time my, my head turns over here, suddenly I get this big bright light in my eyes and that's going to do stuff to my, to my pupils. And so I'm responding to the display of power over, over here. Now what I could do is open my eyes wide like this in order to try and try and fight back against that powerful light and go, there's no way you're going to make my pupils die late. Look, I'm going to, I'm going to now swamp myself with either more light. So that's why I say it's a response to power or, or a display of, of power, because it's an easy way to start thinking about stuff. So whenever I see an interaction and I want to go, let me start thinking about that. I start to go, well, what is the power being, being displayed here? Or what is the power being responded to here? It's the way of starting to think about this. It's not necessarily where I end, but it's often where I'll start on that. Okay. I want to move on to your TED talk because it's, I saw it a very long time ago and it's, it's fascinating. And if you haven't seen it, anyone watching, I'll put the link in the description and on the podcast as well. And you spoke really eloquently and it's got such a lovely arc to that speech. And it resolves with, you know, you saying how being open with your body language leads to new connections and new possibilities. Yeah. I'm not afraid of public speaking. I, I've just come from quite a few many years in corporate and I had lots of people say, you know, any tips and this kind of stuff and many introverted people. I just wanted to know, have you ever trained someone, have you had a great success with someone who fears getting on stage that it's almost like a phobia and they've overcome that? Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Constantly. Yes. One specific example that comes to mind was one client of mine. It's a while back now, they would literally come out in what they call in North America hives, but I call it spots. Okay. They come out in, in spots, especially around the neck, chest area and right up into the, into their lower neck area. It would, their face would get saved. The unconscious mind is quite, quite impressive. And then it would go, I'm not going to spoil your face, but I'm going to let you know that we shouldn't be doing this. I'm going to let you know what's going on here. Anyway, they would, they would come out in, in those hives and yeah, I stopped that completely. Now, this is not a, some kind of mystical kind of thing. There's a, there's a, there's a process, the kind of double prong process that we go through here. One is understanding the trigger for this and, and how this has come about and why the body might, and the mind might be being really helpful right now. Because the moment you make your body and your mind really unhelpful, it's like, wow, why do you keep doing that to me? Why is that, why is that happening? I wish it wouldn't happen. You're, you're fighting a couple of things that are just basically in charge of all of this. And it's, it's nonsense to try and fight them. They're keeping you alive. The same part of the body, which is giving you those, that, that reaction is running your heart at the moment. It's just trying to help. So you've got to acknowledge that and not acknowledge how helpful it's trying to be right now. And then, well, first of all, do that. Sometimes I think acknowledge where this reaction has come from as well. And as, otherwise it is this kind of ghost that you don't quite understand that keeps walking around with you, which is, you know, managed to attach itself, you know, to your back and lots of, lots of metaphors being used there that other psychological ideas use. But so there's that, but then the major thing is a physical countermeasure is using the body on purpose in order to start to send bigger and stronger signals to that, that part of the mind that's been trying to save your life, send bigger, stronger signals that this is, this is okay. This is going to be all right, that you are confident instead of unconfident in that situation or, or, or nervous or anxious in that situation. So, yeah, that's been dealt with a number of times. You're a fantastic public speaker, Mark, and another, it brings to mind, Sir Ken Robinson, another famous TED Talk. And he spoke, of course, about that schools kill creativity in some cases. And I've heard you speaking on the podcast that, you know, you're a dyslexic, and it's, it wasn't a great time for you at school. Chris, the founder of 42 courses, also dyslexic, super smart guy like yourself, super creative, lifelong learner. What do you think is, would be something that you would like to see in schools that could be done differently than this old traditional model that can bring out creativity, that can instill confidence for things like public speaking, things that are very useful in the adult world? Yeah, so, so I think the key here, and specifically around dyslexia, because that's really all that I know about is simply, and this is not my idea, this is an idea that other people have come up with, is first of all, for people who are dyslexic to get seen a bit earlier, to get diagnosed or just the potential that there may be some dyslexia to come up a little bit earlier. And then for the behaviors and the skills especially that come out of dyslexia, for those to be championed a little bit, a little bit more, rather than when I was at school, and you know, this didn't happen to every dyslexic that I know, this amount of great, had a great time. But for me, I was part of that group who were stupid, lazy, not trying, you know, and the confusion was tricky, because I was so advanced, it would seem in some areas, and so disadvantaged, in some areas, it was confusing for everybody, it was confusing for the teachers, it was confusing for me, it's like all they could work out was, well, it must be that you're just stupid or lazy. Well, they made me go for lazy a lot more, because at some levels, there was such a high ability, it would seem, that it was totally incongruent, and they didn't know what to do with that incongruency. And so therefore, because they were adults and I'm a kid, like, what do I know? How do I know? Like, if the adults don't know what, if all they can do is get angry, annoyed, upset, and kind of aggressive around it, what am I left with doing? I'm just a kid at school, I mean, I don't even get to decide whether I show up or not, it kind of got to go, I've got, you know, it's the law that I show up in this environment, where everybody seems to get just a bit upset about me. So it was, I think the more that could be changed, and I know it is changing in a lot of places, but the more it can change, better off everybody else will be, because you see this world around you that you like right now, Dyslexics invented that, like, we came up with this stuff for you right now. So the more you encourage us, the better it's going to be. So, you know, encourage us, we're okay. Yeah, it's a gift in a way, I mean, I've spoken to Chris, the founder of 42 Courses, and he saw the Sir Cain Robinson speech, and he said, because it's essentially a call to arms, right, for change. And, and Chris said, yeah, okay, I'm going to change the world a little bit, and I'm going to make a learning that is accessible, fun, motivating, so that you get to the finish and everything. So in that way, it's a complete advantage for Chris, it's a gift. Yeah, well, learning's great, like learning's superb, because, because, because everything can be learned, you know, everything, there isn't, there isn't anything on the planet that you can't learn to be better at, and that if you've got the right teaching, or, or, you know, good teaching, that you can be better at it than you were yesterday, like learning means you can be better than you were yesterday, like every day you can get better at something, like that's no, yeah, practice as well. So there's learning, and there's practice, you know, and there's just thinking about stuff that you've learned, and practicing, and then thinking about it. But, you know, so there's some other elements as well. But like, what a brilliant world where you can go, you know, oh, I could, I could be better at this tomorrow, by tomorrow, I could be a lot better at this. So learning is, is fantastic. So, you know, my hat is off to anybody who wants to create learning for people, because it's just, it's just helpful, isn't it? There's no downside to being helpful. All heartedly agree, yeah. And another huge learning that you give the world so generously is the behavior panel. And for people that don't know, could you just give us a little summary of what the behavior panel gets up to? Yeah, so the behavior panel is the YouTube show that I'm part of with Scott and Greg and Chase there. And we kind of look at popular culture, like things that are in the news, a lot of true crime as well, that people seem to be really super, you know, interested in, which is great. And we analyze videos from a body language and behavior point of view, often from an interrogation point of view as well. And we just try and be helpful about being, how you might go about analyzing what's going on. I think often to help people understand other people better, and sometimes to help them know that they can feel a little safer in the world and that they can use some of their cognitive abilities to make sure they and the people they love are in safer places for them. In general, in a lot of the world right now, not necessarily in the majority, but in a lot of the world right now, it's a pretty safe place as to how it often, you know, may have been in past history and longer history. But all the same, it doesn't hurt to have a little bit of knowledge so you can feel a little bit more confident, you know, about the world. So that's what we're trying to do. Yeah, every video is just completely absorbing, intriguing, informative. Is there one that stands out for you, which has been the most intriguing for you as a panelist? Yeah, yeah, like Prince Andrew is a great one. I love Prince Andrew. Well, you described him as, it's risible. It's risible, yeah, because it's a, it's not a disaster. It's not a disaster. And there's, so there's so many layers of human behavior going on there. So, you know, not only deceit, but the arrogance. And you can, you can see how this, and he has a lot of, and he has a lot of knowledge of how to resist interrogation and resist this, this interview that's going on. And, and so he has that he has knowledge he has ways of dealing with that, but he also has a huge amount of arrogance at the same time. And so that makes him very susceptible to, to what happens. And the interviewer is phenomenal, phenomenal. And you see her working against and, and her, her skill and power in working against what he's trying to do to resist the interview that's going, going on here. One of the things she does is leave space or pregnant pause. That's a good thing to know if you are asking someone if they are telling the truth or not, right? Just give them space. Totally. Totally. Ask, ask good questions and shut up. Is the, is the, is the key. And a lot of it is about you as the interviewer being able to manage yourself and the social awkwardness of leaving a lot of space and not jumping in and helping people and saving their, saving their life, especially when they're high status. So, so Andrew there is putting on the high status and it would be very easy for the interviewer there to unconsciously jump in and save his life and help him. And she is brilliant at bolting herself down, holding it down and not falling for, for any of, any of that. Also he's bordering to a supremely kind of high ranking place. He's borrowed his mum's house for this, for this, not even borrowed it really because I think, I think the story is, is that, is that it wasn't, you know, he's, he's surreptitiously borrowed it, knowing the status that it will have. But she's brilliant. She's shown up in, in, in a military jacket herself. She's either consciously or unconsciously. She's understood some of these cues that will, that will, that will go on. She's brilliant. She's brilliant. So it's great to watch her, great to watch him. And is there, is there anyone, any other subjects that's been on the behavior panel that you would say like, okay, yes, we unpacked it, but you really do not have to be a, a behavior expert to see that this person's being deceitful. Hmm. Here's, here's, here's the thing. I think, I think everything that we've looked at, depending on your bias, it would be very easy for you to see, see stuff that, or have an analysis that we don't have. So I think it's always, it is as obvious as it might look to us or other viewers. It's always worth taking the time to go, look, let's un, let's unpack this, let's really look at this in detail so that people are able to see stuff that they may have missed or check out their own bias around it. So I, so I think, I think, no, I think everything is worth in, in, in investigating and nothing is there going, God, you know, you don't have to be an expert to, to, because you don't, you don't have to be an expert to have an opinion and, and you don't have to be an expert to have an opinion and you, for your opinion to be accurate and right. But at some point, you're kind of guessing and you just guessed right. What we're trying to do is go, what are the possibilities here? Let's unpack the possibilities and then start to make a conscious judgment that can be against our own bias. So sometimes I'll look through a video and, and I'll do it first of all from a really positive bias and then I'll do it from a negative bias. And then I'll put the two things together and go, so I'm, so I'm now switching on a specific radar to look for data to confirm either end of the bias, which again is not something that most people do and it's hard work because now you're fighting a bias or your, or it's easy work because you're just going, look, there's, there's my bias, it, it, it, it falls into my bias. So that's, that's the job of, of critical thinking. I think we're trying to do our best at, as a group, creating some, a piece of critical thinking and hopefully that's why it's so interesting to people or it's one of the reasons why it's so interesting. I think so. And obviously it's interesting to such a broad spectrum of people because you've gone in all, just over a year, I think you've gone from zero to like 260,000 subscribers right now. And one thing I think it's really interesting, I love to see the progress of the backgrounds. And now have you been pulling these guys and saying, look, marketing, let's get your books, let's get your courses in the background, let's get your lighting, correct. Are you the leader in that sense? No, not at all. Look, when we first started, I already had these, the book posters up here, because that's what I already had up there. And, and, and a few weeks after that, I think the other guys started going, hang on, that's kind of maybe a good idea, we should, you know, stick some branding up there. And so I already had that going on, because I've been showing up on video doing this kind of thing for years already. But I think, I think everybody at all of us have thought about, well, how do we light ourselves better? How do we show up on camera better? You know, everybody's improving. You know, I've gone from, I've gone from, you know, when we were first doing this, let me just switch, switch cameras for you here, when we were first doing that, this, you know, this was, this was pretty much the view that, that everybody was, was, was getting was that one there. And, and now, you know, we've changed, we just, you know, now you're getting something way, way better. Yeah. Like, like this, but it's still not, still not perfect. And you know what, if when this is over, you know, we may well, we may, I may well need to rebuild this in a studio somewhere. And for people who want to like really pro up their backgrounds, there's so many helpful videos that you've done, you've done lighting, you've done the mics, you've done, everything, all set up stuff. So check out Mark Bowden on there on YouTube. Now I wanted to ask, obviously, there's quite a bit of a slant to American true crimes on the behavior panel. Will there be a room in the future, do you think for more UK based crimes, Harold Shipman or anything like that? Yeah, I think that's interesting. So I mean, anything where there is good, as good a quality video as possible, because we're using, you know, we're a YouTube show. So it is, it is a visual medium, though, that though, I know a lot of people, you know, listen to it as a podcast, which is great as well. They like to hear our chat. They like to, you know, they like to be doing something else at the same, at the same time, which is great. We love, we love that. But yeah, anything that there's great, but a lot of people have been asking for, for Jimmy Savile, and I can quite see why, because that, that whole thing is extraordinary. And I know, you know, and I think there's obviously the Louis Thoreau video with him. What a great interview. Can't remember his name now, but one of the guys who was editor of one of the red top papers in the UK, did an even, probably an even better, I think a hard talk, maybe video with him. Where Jimmy eats a banana in order to, you know, it basically is an interrogation resistance. He eats a banana. That's his, he is, you know, like, like everybody who can be very helpful or very dangerous. Not a pacifier, an object. No, it's a barrier. It's a barrier. And it's a distraction. It's like, because he, because, because the interviewer comes in there into a really hot area, and he just gets out a banana and starts eating a banana. And it's like, now what do we do? Now what do we do? Because he's now got the audience in his hands, because it's Jimmy Savile eating a banana, which you can't top. You can't top that. You can't, he now owns the whole territory. It is, you know, sad to say it, but it's genius. I just want to ask you about another subject of the behavior panel, but in a roundabout way, just to lead up questions. I'm a huge fan of Malcolm Gladwell. In talking to strangers, I think it was, he said that humans are terrible at knowing if people are telling the truth or not. But you're saying it can be overcome and being proven. You know, Gladwell's being, being a good kind of generalist. You know, humans are terrible. Which humans? Where? When? Like when? Like, I think, you know, here's what I know. Here's what I know. Lying is one of our most important social skills, as is telling the truth. Accepting a lie is one of our most important social skills, as is telling the truth. So when Gladwell says, Hey, human beings are really bad at being able to tell if somebody's lying. Well, yeah, I don't know whether it's that they're bad at it, or they're good at knowing when to accept that lie, because it benefits them and it benefits the group as a whole. I've not read that, that book. I'm dyslexic. I try to read as few books as I humanly can, because it's, it's really hard. It's not impossible for me. It's damn hard work. So, so, and also here's my problem is when I read books, I think I've read them. And so, and so people come to me and they go, So if you read that book, and I go, Yeah, they go, Well, what did you, what did you make of it? And I go, Well, and I start, and they're like, How did, where did you like, how's that in the, I didn't get that from the book at all. And I, for a time, I just thought I was my, you know, I was reading better than anybody else, like I understood stuff better than anybody else. That was kind of my assumption. Now my assumption is that reading is so hard for me, I make it up. I'm just making up what I've read so I can get so I can feel like I've read the book. And so I come up with ideas in the book that aren't in the book. And some of the ideas are really good. So I go, All right, it's about this. And they're like, People are like, Wow, that's amazing. That's a really good idea. Anyway, so I haven't read bad world's book. What I assume is going on here is that he's not he isn't potentially quite understanding or doesn't want to put in because it doesn't suit him that that there might be an advantage to being a bad at detecting lies. He's made it a disadvantage. He's gone, Well, we're a bit rubbish as human beings at detecting lies. No, it could be a real advantage. You should imagine going out into the world. And you could detect every lion in accuracy that was happening out there. Like how would you how would you have a conversation with with a friend? Like how would you get on because you'd be like any exaggeration, you'd be able to see that their unconscious mind knows it's an exaggeration. It's like so how would they tell you a story? It's the opposite of Ricky Gervais is the invention of lying almost. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And of course, you know, Ricky's comedy is all about, as is a lot of great, if not all great comedy is all about being socially inept. It's all about getting it wrong, and therefore being the outsider, the clown is a complete outsider, because the clown which Ricky is the clown doesn't see the world the same way as everybody else. And so they're a social outsider. That's why the little tram, you know, Charlie Chaplin's always on his own tries to make relationships, but they all fold, you know, they all close down and he moves on to the next place because he's outside of society sees the world in a different, in a different way, isn't able to socially integrate. And that's why, you know, comedy is full of people doing the most socially undesirable thing at exactly the wrong time. And we go, ah, what an idiot, you should have said, and but there's an element of truth in that because the clown is saying the truth when most other people aren't going to tell you the truth. Anyway, yeah, wrap up into that direction there. Very interesting. I just wanted to return to Gladwell because he's also said on many keynote speeches and stuff, he said that, you know, it would be very strange if he didn't change his mind about things every five years, perhaps, as he learns more and more. And then there's Adam Grant's latest book, which is called Think Again. And Malcolm Gladwell says in Talking to Strangers, I think again, it is, I think it's Talking to Strangers, he says that Amanda Knox, subject matter of the Behaviour of Amanda is totally innocent because there is not a shred of evidence against us. I'm just wondering if you, you know, we're in a room with Malcolm Dadwell, would you say that? Well, you know, we've had a look and maybe you could think again or Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether I'd go to that because I don't know how much it really interests him. You know, the reason we talk about Amanda Knox is simply because the people who are interested in what we do said, Hey, will you look at Amanda Knox? You know, so, so why is Gladwell looking at Amanda Knox? Because it proves his point. So, so I, you know, look, he believes she's not, she's not guilty. And beliefs are interesting because beliefs are what we know to be true and require no more evidence around. So I'm sure me showing up and going, Well, here's my evidence would change his mind, not one job, because he believes he doesn't know, like he just believes it from, from the stuff that he's put together. That's good. I'd like, that's great for him. I'm, I'm, I'm all for him. Carry on. Keep, keep going as you were, as you were, Mr. Gladwell. Okay, go forth, my, my, my good man. Now, at the same time, our, our audience are going, gosh, we don't quite, quite know, because we've looked at all, we've looked at everything out there, just as maybe Gladwell has done. We've looked at everything out there. And still, we're undecided around this. So all we're doing is going, well, here's a little bit more for you to, to look at from our area of expertise and thinking and see what that little bit more for you does for you. Does it help you? Does it, does it, does it push your, your assumptions about this? Does it reinforce your assumptions about, about this? But I'm, I'm pretty convinced that Malcolm Gladwell would not care one jot about what I said about. I would be, I'd be slightly disappointed if he was. Babe, I can change your mind. You do yourself, you do yourself a disservice. Now, Mark, I've used up so much of your valuable time. I just want to finish with a very left field question that I had lots of fun with in interviews when I was working in big company. You have to choose to fight between a horse sized duck or 100 duck sized horses. So 100 small horses. So a huge duck or 100 very small horses. So which do you choose to fight and why? Yeah, here's the thing. Here's what's going to happen is, is my dyslexic thinking kicks in and background. And that's why it's interesting. And the, and the, and the institute, you know, and the worry about institutional ideas. And I suddenly start breaking your question. So I'm just going to carry on. Well, I have an easy choice, which is the 100 duck sized horses. Because, because I can hide from them, I believe. I can place myself in a, in a building that I've just avoided the whole fight thing moment one. But I have chosen. I think, I think I can protect myself from 100 duck sized horses. Whereas a horse sized duck, like horses are horses are powerful anyway. But ultimately, I think horses are quite, quite domesticated and passive. Whereas ducks, I think are still wild. And it may be a wild duck as well. Like you haven't been really, I mean, you didn't say it was a wild, there aren't many wild horses out there anyway are there. But wild ducks, there's plenty of wild ducks. And so if you're thinking like a wild duck as a, as a horse, that could be quite dangerous. And I'm even thinking, you know, I could build quite a strong building and a horse sized duck could be able to kick it in. So I've got no protection around that. I can't even, because I need some time. Like I'm not going to go straight into the fight. Like I need some time to like, you know, be in a, be protected for a bit and go, how are we going to deal with this? Okay, let's have a quick think, at least a quick think about this without being attacked. Because if I'm being attacked by either one, you know, and in a fight, my chances of thinking about this, you know, and I've got no training. The thing is, is that you resort back to your, you know, under stress and pressure, you resort back to your training. Well, there was no, you know, where I trained, there was no module on, on fighting, fighting either 100, you know, duck sized horses or one horse sized duck. So I got no, I got no training to resort back to. So I need time to think, first of all, and so, so I think I'll have more time to think with those duck sized horses. For example, they can't fly for a start. Okay, so they can't, so they are ground, they are all on, on, on the ground. So, so, you know, so, you know, and even just having this time, not being in a fight, I've realized, okay, great. So, so ducks, duck sized, hang on, duck sized horses. Yes. Okay, so the horse sized duck can fly. That's flipping dangerous, isn't it? Because now that's a predator from above. And the size, okay, the duck sized, the 100 duck sized horses cannot fly. That's just like, that's just like rats. That's just like, they're just, that's why, you know, we would you rather have an attack of rats or an attack of pigeons, like, you know, pigeons are more annoying, I think pigeons are more annoying, you know, because you can't stand on a chair with a pigeon, it will, it's up in the air anyway. Anyway, you can see how my thinking goes on this. It's quite an interesting, what answers have other people given? Incredibly varied, I have to say, I've asked it hundreds of times, but yours was the most extensive and analytical and interesting, I would say. But it's, it's a cross-reference question. It confirms what you already know about the person. And it shows that you have a great analytical mind. As in truth and lies, you give people the methodology, the template to judge the situation to, you know, get a better feeling for it for yourself. So thank you for the answer. And thank you, Mark, for your time. It's been a huge, huge pleasure for me. And I'm very, very grateful. Thank you so much. My pleasure. It's been great fun being with you, Bren. And happy to come back and chat anytime. Thank you so much. Cheers. Wow, wow, wow, as the French say. The learned raconteur, Mark Bowden there. Full of stunning insights. Check out any of Mark's four books for much, much more. 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