 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's up Tom? How you doing? Hello friends. How are you? You were very delayed there. It's a beautiful day in that neighborhood Well, no, you're delayed my friend Whether you realize it or not like you went up to present and you're like all choppy Hmm, that's entirely possible. This is a hotel show. So we're dealing with hotel internet So sorry in advance, but this is what it is All right, well, why don't we get started here and let's let's get amongst it I'm still waiting for it to actually start. There we go. Okay. We're finally starting over on my phone Just making sure it's working We're gonna we're gonna talk about the future as you said a flesh eater courts tonight That's gonna be a discussion. What's coming? I think there's a lot in store for this army My opinions on what is happening with this army have changed a lot recently because of things I have read in books I know we'll talk about that Tom. We'll talk about exactly what's what's going down over in FEC land But first of course, let's do some news Uh News right. Sorry. I'm still I'm truly truly taken by the state of the stream I don't know if you see this or not, but on my screen at least it looks like you live in pixel universe It does look like I live in pixel. Maybe that's not It's delightful just utterly delightful Okay, anyways, what let's just we're gonna push on through. Okay. Let's talk about the rumor engine. Let's start there That's always a safe spot to start That sounds good. It's a complete 40k thing. It's a literal gun. Who likes it It's a gun barrel And KO don't have gun barrels like that. It's 40k. We're moving on done So how about that war cry war cry terrain set let's talk about that. Yes indeed. All right, I've got it I love me Um, I I don't know. I'm just a huge sucker for the war cry terrain sets like normal train sets are fine But I just I don't know Um Yeah, I love them. I love it so much. I mean, yes, it's all weird Like it it we're getting some of the like Um, I guess that's fire slayer I mean, that's how they're trying to frame it as like some of the fire slayer ruins um But uh, I don't know. I love the bamboo weird Like wood stuff that they've been going on like the noro wood stuff That's me Yeah, it's fine. It's um, like It's a completely dedicated war cry terrain set Um, you know, we talked a long time ago tom about How we thought it would be a good idea to make realm based rain sets like we really Missed a trick and they left money on the table And it's funny because that's sort of come about through war cry Right like because war cry spends a bunch of time whatever the Yeah, yep And so now, you know, this is more of that but I have to say I'm not sure this is like Enough of this thing. It's okay I like the rocks. I like the bamboo thing, but I'm like, how much is this box because this is not a lot of terrain Um, it's cute. I mean, it's it's it's a bunch of scattered terrain, which is what it looks like And like it's three real piece pieces A bunch of scatter and two warbands and they're probably going to charge us 220 bucks I mean, I hope not. I hope you're not right about that. This is like a 60 70 box of terrain and my estimation at best at best and I'm being generous Sure Like I'm assuming that it's going to come with the warbands, right? I think no, this is just the terrain box. According to the article Like just the terrain Is it really? Yep. Okay. Well, I don't think they'll charge us 220 for For just the terrain. I I was I was casting that with an eye towards both warbands in there as well No, um, though according to the article, this is like a standalone terrain box Okay, I hope it's not more than like 70 or 80. It'll probably be either 80 or 110 I'm hoping it's only Yeah, but we shall see regardless I in general, I like it Um, I like again, but I've liked the gnarlwood kind of gir stuff. I'm not a real big fan Of the of the fire slayers stuff here like it doesn't strike me as interesting at all But uh, I do like the bamboo like treehouse stuff. Okay, so Yeah, I mean whatever that's work. This whole season has honestly been kind of a snooze for me. I'll be honest Uh, I just haven't liked too much of it. I can't wait till we get to another realm I want to see what else is out there. I think there's you know, like what what does the terrain of hulgu or haish or You know, honestly, like I think we could go back and and and look at some really amazing guy rain A guy ran terrain like the the life realm, right? Like I think about what that could be There's there's so many amazing places that the mortal realms we could construct um in these terrain kits and I just feel like I like that we we we sort of We got our wish but the monkeys paw curled because we were like we want terrain for each realm right and What we ended up getting was like a long time of that terrain Right, like so much like oh you want this terrain for a realm have so much of it And it's like oh boy That feels like too much like how many more meat tree boxes do I need how many more of these kinds like twisted trees and you know the Connective little bamboo walkways and everything like G's there comes a point and I think I'm pretty much there with this one like this season. I'm done with it Let's see something new. Can we be in any new realm? Please at this point. That's my answer Yeah, Gers get you know, like I'm ready for us to move on from Gers Like one year in a realm would be nice three years is maybe pushing it a little bit. Yeah Yep, so, you know is what it is Um Okay, cool. What's next? Yeah Yeah And then we also have some golden demon category changes For our painters out there. Yes Yes, uh, let's talk about that And don't worry. I apologize if anything's a little fuzzy for everybody. Like I said, hello everyone We are on hotel internet here. So I'm at the mercy of this. This will be a relatively more discussion focused show Um, so sorry everybody Um, but that's okay. Hopefully you can still hear us. All right. I know it gets all real bad and wonky sometimes I promise it'll it'll catch up at some point Um, uh, Hades said it Ugu be next so prepare for three years of shadows Not only shadows, it'll be shadows that we have to paint. You know how there's like clouds Uh, like how you we end up getting stuck painting clouds all the times We're gonna get stuck painting pixels and it's gonna be the worst Yeah, or not pixels. We're gonna be stuck painting shadows. Yeah So but anyways to the the category list change for golden demon. Okay. What's relevant here in 40k vehicle and large collapse together Which I'm like not the biggest fan of only because vehicles Are almost always traditionally judged separate in most miniature painting contests because they are more of a scale model Type of challenge than they are a traditional It's a different skill set as well. Yeah Exactly. Yeah um Things like the horse heresy is going to be weird because I assume that's everything from like a horse heresy tank and vehicle To a horse heresy unit to a primark to Whatever, right? It'll all be in there Same thing with like necromunda. That'll be strange how much it pulls into those categories. They'll be so big Um in that they'll be like dioramas competing with single figures competing with units, right? Um, which means that like if you enter a unit you lose basically Because there's no way you're going to do the unit to the same level as the individual model And then warhammer underworlds with its own category is fascinating to me like blood bull. I don't mind blood bull is such a constrained um, simplified thing Uh, let's say it's all the football teams, right? So that actually makes a lot of sense to me as its own category Uh underworlds the same way like that's a very constrained category But it's just funny because now what are people going to put in age of sigmar unit? Because you know age of sigmar units were just dominated by uh warhammer underworlds submissions. So Uh, that's very interesting. Um, but yeah, I mean in the end. I'm like, okay It's fine more more categories is good more chances for people to pick up demons. It's great Um more chances for people to paint what they love. That's great. Um, it's not a thing that I care about for next year So no skin off my nose. It sounds good to me I'm fine with it Okay Cool Yeah, uh, I don't know that I'll ever compete. So that's fine. Yeah, exactly. But interesting enough All right, cool. Uh, let's move on tom. Let's do a little uh, little pick of the week Uh, what what do we got? What do we got for some pick of the week here, buddy? Yeah, I'm gonna uh, man. I have been really been taken by trod strongard the new um, the new gets all trolls stuff and uh, and aos coach did a recent show with Dom, uh, trod herd hammer, uh on twitter and I It's a great show. I want it for anybody that is is is Jones it on those trolls It's just a great like two hour deep dive into trolls. It's fantastic and just everything that's going on in that book. So um big fan, uh, I know it got me stoked for it. Um, I may be Uh, maybe picking up trolls for my next, uh, army that I'm working on after my current one. Nice. Nice. Very good Uh, for myself, uh I am going to recommend the continued series. Um, I talked about this last week But the videos have continued and so it's worth mentioning it again because there is a multi part many part series Uh, since we're gonna be building on a little bit of dawn bringers part two lore here tonight I'm going to shout out two plus tough dug one of the nicest men in warhammer age sigmar again, uh, because his ongoing series reviewing the dawn bringer lore continues and uh, what we're going to talk about tonight when we talk about the future of flesh eater courts We'll actually build on some of the things in that dawn bringers part two book so, um, go check out that lore series and Uh, I think it's up to like part seven or eight now. It's so far along. I don't remember But go check that out. I'll link it down in the description. Uh, yeah, okay. Cool. Very good All right, let's talk hobby time because tom I think you actually did a little bit of hobby over this weekend. Like at least something was assembled I mean define a little bit. So here's what I'll say hit me. Um, I put 22 models together That's good. That definitely happened. Mm-hmm based on everything And I began building a board So, um, a bunch of stuff is all like vise together and being glued so Work is happening in this house. That's that that's true voice Look, man, that's hobby that counts that kind of assembly and all that that's that's real Especially building a display board. Yeah, so you're you're back on that. You're back on the train, baby Way to go. I'm back. I'm back in Absolutely. My hope is before I go leave the country on saturday to Um, get a bunch of the stuff like the paste and all that the Texturing done at least the initial round of it so it can dry over the week. So we'll see them very nice For myself I finished up. I don't have anything with me obviously because I'm in a hotel um, but I finished up, uh, what's his name zagrak the um, the orc the new orc special character for iron draws Finished that guy up. Um, he was a lot of fun to paint. I actually converted mine some Uh, because I didn't want to I didn't like his normal Did you notice tom that he's just like not really armored? He's like wearing a weird apron and stuff I don't know if you notice that in the in the actual But I didn't like that. So I gave him like full brute armor. Like I switched around his armor He's fully armored. I still I gave him his little tongs Um, so he's still easily recognizable. I used his face and stuff very cool model. So finish that dude And now I am working on a bust for, uh, the Shinobi from journeyman miniatures a bust. I've wanted to paint for a long time It's been giving me All sorts of fits and starts and troubles because I'm trying a very unusual lighting scheme And I'm fighting my way through it And there's been multiple times where I thought about just saying Nevermind and going back and doing it in a way. I'm much more comfortable with But, uh, what do we do then if we don't if we don't push ourselves and fail then we don't learn So usually you got pushing through the failure But it's fun to try a really really unusual sort of lighting scheme and see what I can do. So there you go Uh, so Let's uh, let's go ahead and jump into this. Let's take a little overview Let's start there Uh Flesh of your quartz. Let me see what you think of my overview here, Tom This has always been a very limited force Okay, like let's be honest. Yeah, this was a sort of This was one of the splinter factions from original aos that they just decided to make into its own army Right, uh, a lot of this was drawn from the larger sort of Quote unquote. I don't mean this in the proper term, but the sort of legions of negash as it were, right But they they took all the ghoulish things out It's gotten a couple new kits since launch, but really for the most part This is One star collecting box gives you your whole army The heroes are made out of the units itself annoyingly in most cases not all heroes, but most of them Most of the courtiers The vargulf is like incredibly old fine cast nonsense um, you have like the um aberrant ghoul king and the guy on the chair and those are basically your new sort of Sculpts that you've got everything else is like the ancient ghouls the um You know showing its age um ghoul king On terra geist and so forth, right? And these kinds of models and it's basically like seven kits It's the same sort of thing again where it's like, okay, you're you're melee troops, you know Your troops troops non-hero stuff, right is like ghouls Uh, crypt horrors, crypt flares, right, which was just itself an invention There's like an invention of a new kit out of the the two builds of the old kit, right? yep yep, and Uh, and then recently obviously it got one Really new non-hero kit in the um war cry war band, right? so This has always been a really like melee focused swarm army Like lots of low quality regenerative units in the ghoul king as a hammer And the heyday of this army was back in 2019 during the the the dual the the the the two terrors as it were of slanesh and fec um fec still on that same book by the way That then I realized that like that same book yeah so The reality is this This is truly Bretonia yeah Yeah, I think that's right I mean not only are they the remnant, right that survived in the midst But they carry on the traditions of the ancient Bretonians with not getting updated books ever yeah, yeah and the you know the The reality of this thing is it's always had sort of this singular game plan And like if that game plan actually worked in the meta It was then the army was good. In fact, it could be dominant Right if the game plan wasn't yep, then the force didn't adjust and it was like bad This is an army that's like swung all over the place like been down in the low 40s Up in the high 50s even touching some of the 60s like at various points in time It is wild how much this army has gone all over the place in sort of win rate and quality and and force in the meta To be clear to be fair Like it like some of the rules have been changed to like the asf and stuff like that have changed How it functions right like from when it was truly a monster and where it's at now sure But yeah, it's uh It's uh, it's something that's for sure Tom, I want you to regale everybody for a moment. Take back to the summer of 2019. How much did you play Summer and fall 2019 right before the the big cameras came down. It wasn't I mean it launched in february. Yep. Um, so if you'll remember that this came and it stormed um It stormed adepticon, right like it it just you know, like it was the dominant kind of like Whirlwind that was ripping through Adepticon that right like the ghoul king on terra geist was this amazing hammer And because it could do like 12 to 24 mortal wounds pretty reliably and always fight first It would just kill the entire enemy army Like that was it army is just the wounds that they had the mortal wound resilience that they had The damage it was just like the biggest hammer and there was like no shooting in the meta Nobody who had high mortal wound resistance, right? So this thing just tore everything up. It was just like this gristle gore terror Right. Yeah And You know, the only other army that was that was in competition at that time was slanesh because they had always strikes last and would blah blah blah And that's kind of stuff, right? And I just think it's it's wild to me because you could basically if if that army worked Obviously as you said a lot of the ground the foundation underneath the army has shifted Right and what's going on But if you took that original army, yeah, exactly as it was then and put it into the current meta, it would just get slaughtered It would just die right Yeah Yeah, it's true. It's true Sorry, I'm watching the stream and it's so bad. I know it's so it keeps bouncing in and out I understand. I apologize everyone. This is this is what it is. We're here. It's it's cool Enjoy the dulcet tones of our audio, right? Like it's it's the audio should be Crisp and stuff like that. So that's what matters Uh, the picture's not going to be great this this week folks. I apologize folks. Just turn your monitor off Just turn your monitor off and listen Listen to our smooth sultry voices. Yeah, this is a podcast this week. Basically. So it's fine. I apologize The undead kings. Yeah, like this is the best wifi that they could give me and here we are So I don't know what to tell you Yeah, this is what this is what we have I am on the road. We can either do the show like this or we cannot do the show those are the choices folks So, you know, there it is Okay But i'm glad the audio is coming through. Okay, so that's all that really matters in in the end. Hopefully Uh, all right Okay All right, so I thought I one of the things I made a little slide here, tom That's just all of the current offerings like literally this is everything on the gw website right now for for fec Okay And it's hilarious to me how few kits it is Right. First of all, it really is just like buy the start collecting get the army basically Obviously, you're missing the work right warband and the channel throne. Yep, right But which let me just say that like the that start collecting I am still a long time fan Of the start collecting box for fec like if you want to start an army pick up that old Start collecting box if you can find it. Yeah, it's still there. It's still available on the website right now So it's the top result So, yeah, you can grab it. There's a couple of those still available that does different kinds of like get everything in the army kits But this thing has nothing because even multiples of these kits that it shows as separate entries are obviously the same Kit right like cryptors and clip crypt layers at the same box Right, uh, zombie dragon and terror geist and ghoul king on zombie dragon These are all the same thing. It's like four of these my units are the same the same box Right, it's funny to me because realistically there are there are Three boxes. Yeah Yeah, I mean That is the army I mean like depends on how the terrain piece the vargulf and the new worker. I don't know that no, I don't No, no because you won't find those on a shelf anywhere. You will only find three boxes Plus the start collecting and then the dawn bringers Uh delegation. Yeah, that's it Like yes flesh shooter. Yes, uh endless spells. Yes terrain Hypothetically, there is the vargulf, but he's fine cast. So you have to like order him Or metal, right? Yep. Um, yep. Yeah, there's basically nothing else It's it's pretty wild And so like this is just an army with not much in it, right? Um, so Like what how is it? Let me just ask this. How is it survived this long? I think for the same reason iron jaws did I mean, what do you think give me your guess? Why has this endured? Why is this still around Being as small as it is. It's an appendix faction that got its own book and just stuck around. Why? Right. I think that it's probably because it Um It offers something unique within death as a grand alliance and it's self-contained It's self-contained largely and so it's um and and uh the zombie dragon and all that all that has a permanent home in Well, technically even the flares in that sense all of that has a permanent home in soubleye Until you add one more box and you get an entire sub faction That doesn't need really any additional support. I think this endured because It's a very simple faction to both collect and play and paint So I think that matters Okay, like how easily someone can get into something like FEC is pretty easy into you can speed paint this army, you know in a week And have it look pretty decent Right Um, it's easy to collect for all the reasons we mentioned. I functionally did that. Yes, right Economically, it's it's easy to collect like it's not expensive army as things go And lore-wise it's got to be one of the biggest home runs in all of age of sigmar right Because like the delusion and everything like that. It's just really compelling as a story um I mean, I think that that's I think you put those three things together you get an army that despite the fact it's got, you know A handful of of Units and even less kits and you get something that sticks around. That's really what it comes down to Right. Yeah Yeah so What made me change my mind about this tom and we'll talk about it in a minute is is was the recent iron jaws release Like if I would have loaded up the iron jaws page Okay, two months ago or whatever It would have looked pretty similar to this. It would have looked similar Yeah Now there was a couple more underworlds war bands, right or whatever You know here there, but it would have mostly been the same story Um, it doesn't have the whole like you have to make the heroes from the the actual units and stuff like that Like it was designed as its own range as opposed to like Cobbled together out of the leftover bits that were on the floor, which is what fec really was originally Right. Yeah but Then they took that iron jaws range and they they expanded it in some really interesting ways, right adding You know two new heroes Basically three new kits one reimagined existing kit, right and we we got a nice expansion to the range right Big pig three variants new art boys new art boy leader Zograk, you know great stuff, right? so It occurred to me that fec is in You know like really prime position For that same thing to happen Okay Now that alone didn't make me want to do this show Or make me think that the status quo was going to change Um, yep, but then something else occurred, which we'll we'll talk about in a minute But my point is positionally This army is very much in the same place iron jaws was and so is right for the same thing where you can introduce Two three four boxes Have that build five six kits or five six Units, sorry, right so three four kits five six units and radically transform the entire line Right and the experience of playing this army Especially if you're going to end up putting out a new book at the same time, which uh-huh This is the last book to be released, right? We all know it like this is our eventual Yeah winter end of year beginning of next year your drop. Yes, it's dropping Yeah, right So the You know to me the most the part of this that's always let me down the most is the story is so cool And it's actually kind of hard like a bunch of people want to do burtonian conversions But it's actually pretty hard To do that with these models because like the knights don't aren't actually two separate guys They're just one big dude You know the the little dudes turn into peasants easy enough like the ghouls becoming peasants is very straightforward. Yeah And you know gerryon was an absolute win the new harbinger dude out of dawn rangers par one. I think that dude is Uh, really really great I mean he was probably the second best harbinger model in the release and the only reason he doesn't get first Like I like him more, but I have to Objectively judge that nergal guy better I mean the nergal dude based on the classic piece of art, you know based on deathbringer or whatever is just like Yeah An amazing model, but still the fact that you're in the same conversation with that guy says everything, right? So So and Okay, but first I want to cover some more recent changes. Let's talk about what's happened with this army recently So I've got here some of the more relevant Recent FAQs The most the most recent two in magenta are from the 914 update So this month that was just two like true clarifications on like the crypt players and what they can do with their their movement ability and then Of course the morgant grand court before the previous FAQ to this one Right was in a rough spot. I don't know if you remember this tom But fec had like screamed quite literally up the charts to most out-of-balance armies in aos And it had done so on the back of that new warcraft faction Right Where uh, you know people were basically those things were being regenerated Not really infinitely, but you get it. They were they were coming back At and being summoned and yada yada yada. I was like way more than they should because they're they were serfs Right Yeah, yeah, and so when put in morgant there was just like a lot of bad interactions because this book is still running on like mid early aos 2.0 The technology, yeah, right Uh, so it's just crazy um and so uh you know like I I It shot way up because of basically some bent rules. There's a couple other interactions I won't go into because they're they're not relevant anymore. They've all been corrected, right But there was a couple other bad interactions, but this is like this is a book tom Do you remember how sub factions even used to be that this is how it still is right that has those heavy sub factions With like tons of rules that decide your command trade. Yeah. Super heavy sub factions. Yeah Yeah All right, and this is still their book As I mentioned you you were exactly right like this came out and generally for You're good. Yeah, I was just saying generally there was like four abilities including an item sometimes a command ability Like it was just so so heavy. Yeah yeah and so You know it was like Suddenly be highly abusable because of like one new unit and its interactions with some of the old rules, right? And it's funny because in a lot of this army's history as a sort of terror on the tables It had done so Through the power of like its few hammers Right where where like it's true hammers. Uh, like that is to say either there's a Point or two in history where it did so through like well everything was a hammer generally That's sure sure sure Yeah Uh Everything's a nail to a hammer. Yes, and like, you know the the cumquat as we affectionately call him the ghoul king on terror guys, right? or The or just like giant piles of ghouls all making like, you know infinite attacks basically, right? Um, we're sort of the two ways that this army ever actually accomplished anything Criptors and clip crypt flares were always like cute but around but generally not a path to victory It was basically like those two things and then a var gulf that would summon or whatever you had smash bat for a little while I mean smash bats what inspired me to to speed paint an fec army over a weekend because I loved me some smash bat That was great times bring back smash bat you cowards um So like you had a decent amount of summoning Right to like hold positions and and and do play the board control game While at the same time you had for a while like there was a period where this was one of the scariest You know hammers in the game Right, that's reality and where this thing would just like lift your unit and then lift the next unit and then lift the next unit All right And you would charge into it and it would lift the thing that charged into it, right? Yeah, right Right, exactly. It's like if you couldn't triple charge it you couldn't kill it Right, I mean you remember that discussion, right? It was like people would be like, oh, it's easy to kill a google king on terra guy She just have to triple charge it Okay, yes, that was a conversation. It was I love people's answers to broken stuff. It's really fun I mean, no, obviously the answer is we should have had some shooting that was worth a darn which we didn't at the time Right, that didn't exist right And so so that was the that was the issue um So But the other thing to change recently is we got the new scrolls Right, so with dawn bringers we got new scrolls for for basically the troops um and Tom I got to say You know what this made me think about? Why doesn't this happen more? Why don't why don't they just update scrolls? Yeah Yeah Like I know this is a really old book and i'm not saying you just do it on a whim like put it out as a pdf But if you're gonna put out dawn bringers or something like that, you know some book It it had gerion in it. He was the new model. None of these other guys had models. Yeah Right, they just they just got new scrolls because Because because they got what eventually will be their fec scrolls. I'm guessing like the new book scrolls right and I mean it makes sense like you you may run into some overlap Like that may be a problem right where you get like new scrolls utilizing old rolls and stuff like that But in general like if with a little bit of testing it should not be the end of the world Yeah Yeah And it makes me just wonder like boy when we've got this opportunity where we know There's some scrolls that are like just bad How how many scrolls do we I'm not saying all these all these fec scrolls were just bad But they clearly wanted to update them But like how many scrolls in the game right now tom can you look at and just go well, that's trash. It's complete trash right The good number of I mean more than I want to admit. Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah So if you're gonna touch that army at all in dawn bringers Why not just throw a new scroll in there for other units in the army that are bad? Like how hard is that? You know crypt horrors crypt ghouls and crypt flares did not figure in in any like Super meaningful way to dawn bringers part one to the story Okay, I mean they were mentioned they existed you know Uh, I mean gerion was really the and and him as a harbinger was really the the the main thing That was what the story focused around The flares and horrors and stuff were all just like there Being under their delusion fighting like they know all this do nothing about that story or anything in it necessitated a new scroll They just did it Right because it was a nice time to put out these new scrolls that are going to be in advance of the book And my immediate thought was um more of that please Right like Like why would we not just do that all the time? you know If you're going to mention like scaven put out a new bell scrolls since the existing bell is crap Right Or or whatever like stormcast you're going to touch on stormcast at some point in harbingers. I'm sure Maybe okay. Well like the night relic door or I I the lord vera taunt or whatever. I don't know like really bad scrolls Yeah, you know just give those guys some new scrolls with the benefit of hindsight Um and and then just drop them into the app and you're good to go right So I it just feels like a real missed opportunity But anyways, we got the new crypt horrors. We we covered these in a previous show But I just wanted to include them in here just as reference, you know, we got the new crypt horrors We got the new crypt ghouls. We've got the new crypt flares And and what's interesting about them is all of them are actually pretty interesting the ghouls becoming, you know, quite a terror Having some pretty good abilities here with rend The flares having that really interesting moving movement ability with the escort courtier Escort courtier or however you yeah, whatever. Okay. This is why I would take unit a over unit b over unit c right yeah Yeah, I could go with a longer death scream on the flares for them to actually have kind of like a range threat role But sure. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But at the same time, I like that it's rend two So that's cool. That's good a plus on that So, um, you know, it's it's just interesting overall The nature of like these updated scrolls and what they meant And it's also funny that these scrolls and even though they're like really good and new and pretty pretty decent I think and competitive in my mind um Aren't actually the thing that had anything to do with this this book suddenly shooting up in in overall quality out of the stratosphere It was about, you know, sort of bent Functionality, although I'm sure they helped some they were contributory to it to be fair Okay So anything else you want to say on, you know, sort of recent Changes that the current positions guy anything else strike your fancy or anything else like that. Yes Yes, but not from a rule standpoint Actually from a design standpoint. Okay. Um, I love the war cry force. Yep They look amazing Like the leader wearing bono in such a way that like he feels knight ish right, um The other thing the other design choice that they made in here that we started to see but we started to see kind of like in In mass with the beast flares was the the addition of weapons Like many of them carrying broken weapons. I've long been a proponent last probably like four to five months Yes, of this of this of you know, suggesting that when we get fleshy airports, we'll get an armed like Like when they redo ghouls We'll get something that leans more into that infantry Yep, you know with like old, you know broke broken rusted weapons and the like Um, and while we won't show it on the show not that we really could right now Um, hey, it's it's been a little more stable for a little while. Okay Sure, uh, there was a spru that leaked on reddit. Um, and I didn't even know about it before this show ironically Um, I went and somebody mentioned it in the chat and I just googled it and uh as we started the show I was like looking at the images and let me tell you Uh We're getting new ghouls. Yeah And they're armed with weapons. Yeah Yep. Yep And we're that's happening. Yeah, we're gonna talk about new models. Absolutely like but both We're just gonna mention that off hand, but then also talk about what else we think we're seeing You know, one of the advantages as I said, this is such an appendix line It was just like, oh, we've kind of got these figs. They kind of don't fit in the regular army We'll just make a whole army on of them, you know There of it for the grace of god goes this what what were they called tom? What were your mailmen called the swift swift talk swift talk agent agents Well, that's what i'm saying like swift talk agents had more units. It had more units. Yeah Then fec right Right, but it turns out being the mailman isn't as compelling of a story Hey, hey, I think it is and I miss my swift talk agent It's my reverbs and my and my sky cutter chariots Oh in the seaguard Beautiful beautiful Yeah, but that's just it like that's what i'm saying there before the grace of god go I right because it could have been they just picked this one, you know Aos the story of pre aos one and aos one was these like them splitting everything up What we frequently call ghettoization right them splitting it up into all these Little tiny sub factions and making all these different names and then you know over the course of aos one We slowly started grouping some things back together But then we were just like this was one of the earliest things they put out as like a conceptual Book Right was just like oh no this little sub faction this little thing like they had this cool story idea Of the do the grand illusion Right, and I really think that's what it was I really think internally this story just designed most of the range without too much effort Right in addition to adding kids. It's true. It's true I don't know that we're gonna like to be honest though if we're talking about the future I don't know that we're gonna lose crypt. All right. I'm back with you Hey, there we go. We're back. Okay, I worked Cool Okay, I can see it actually happening now There we go. Hey folks. I got it restarted. How about that? I didn't have to like I wasn't sure that was actually gonna work But it did Yay All right, can you still hear me? Okay, Tom? I can all right good It lives. We're back, baby. We're back, baby Okay, cool. Sorry about that everyone Uh Again hotel internet. This is the world we live in. I don't know what to tell you All right, so we'll talk about the future. Let's pivot here, Tom This is gonna be a short the summer king the blood rose prince. He is known by many names. Okay In the age of myth this guy rose up against Nagash And shroud cast or something like that. I remember something like that And he's in there for a long time he was supposed to be this like really sort of noble leader and in Uh the realm of the dead in shahish, but he was like prone to fits of extreme rage And he had he had both he had like gained extreme control over his own blood list and he So he ends up in this prison for like a long long time and then Sigmar gets in a fight with Nagash, right? So the age of chaos where Sigmar and Nagash have this breaking Yeah And as Sigmar is like going ham through Nagash's realm One of the things that he destroys is this guy's prison And so usherin gets out Gets on the lamb, you know, he's fleeing. Nobody knows where he is And that's basically where he's remained to this day And for a couple for for a little while now as we've been talking about kind of harbinger stuff and some future prediction things A couple people in the comments and chat had mentioned usherin the summer king, right? And people have talked about this guy for a while to be clear like this has been something on the radar of the fec players for for quite a while And they've been asking for it for years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I don't want to make it sound like And you know, this guy's effectively the first flesh eater, right? What he is like he's driven mad in all these different ways from Nagash's torture and so on and so forth and Yeah, I didn't think well and to be clear usherin was Nefrada's younger brother, right? Um, I don't know if it was maybe I don't remember there's his I I legitimately do not remember his story from the old world He's a character that connects back to the to the old world. Yes Um, right. So he has a couple different backs. Yeah. So as I Yeah, I know at least one of them suggests that like he was a younger brother known as like lord of masks celebrations and festivities Okay And That becoming the first Strigioi um, and so the slight ghoulish undead So I say that to say Um, I mean he traces back to the old world. Yep, and it would make sense if um, if he finally showed up again Yeah, he has a bunch like they've they've reconned some of his background in the in aos world And so I don't know like and they've reconned it all as like This is the story that some people tell and this is the story that other people tell right that kind of classic unreliable narrator thing Yeah, but yes, he was definitely an old world character. Um Or the world that was as it were um And I really didn't think or place any great belief that we were going to get this guy or that he was going to show up Until dawn bringers part two So that that book was the revelation that made me want to do this show for as I said for the first reason I already mentioned right the first reason was the Now by the way, it looks pretty crisp Apparently resetting it it must have been a magic trick because now I'm over here watching it And where was this internet the whole time we were doing the show earlier now? It looks like totally chris Seriously, so yeah weird I don't know folks. I don't know what to tell you um, but I'm glad we got there so the the nature of um Dawn bringers party the first thing was the work release right So seeing the iron draws released now they built on the other sort of appendix small faction in there again We mentioned the differences between the two, but nonetheless, there's a lot of similarities as well The way they built on that was like, okay, this this as we said this could be done out in the same way The second thing That then locked this in as like, oh, this is happening usher on the summer king is happening is in The story for dawn bringers part two, okay There are Two different stories that mention people going after this guy or or being involved with this guy So you remember astria soul bright the storm cast leader, you know, I'm talking about yep. Yep. Okay Um Everybody's telling me not to jinx it on the connection. Yeah, that's probably true. Um Okay, the astria soul bright was Is going after this guy She just doesn't know that She's looking at a place. She's heading to a place called the charnel court and she's looking after like this summer character Prince or something like that and like they mentioned they just they say they say everything but the exact words summer the Oh, there we go. Now we're getting pixelated again. Good. Okay. I'm glad to see it. Um the So that was like now they'll often drop little things like that into the story tom as you know Right, like one of their favorite things to do is to drop in these little Sprinkle in little seeds that they can come back to later and just pick up if they want So if it was just that one reference, I wouldn't have thought that much of it But then there's an interstitial in the same book at the end with callous and they Directly talk about the summer king and how like this wine And it's from here and it drove somebody into like unbelievable bloodlust and they killed and ate their whole family Blah blah blah blah blah and it's like this summer king is very dangerous. Yada yada yada, right? And So The fact that they reference it twice in the like What in what other important things are going on in the world right now? It's that tells me this is happening like this is happening. This guy's coming. We're getting this kid period Yep, there's a foreshadowing that has been seated into the story and the framework and everything else And then it makes sense to actually then introduce a harbinger for fec, right to be a harbinger for some Namely bruce ron. Yep So like the fact that they were in the first book You know that we got gerian in book one, right and that they're playing some big role in the story The fact that we showed in book two. We can double dip By having gits Like the git guy in book one leads to the gits stuff in book two Yeah, like little rabble rousa bracket is the one who wakes up truck. Yeah And in the same way here gerian in the fec is going to be the harbinger for And the carrion king the summer king the blood rose prince and so on and so forth The fact that we are now making multiple references to this guy In the like what's the important story stuff you need to be doing here? The fact that they have callous and toll Mentioning it Right, which are like obviously two characters that they generally care a lot about and put like Like I've called and callous and toll and dawn ringers I call them the balcony muppets like the the stellar and wall dwarf because they just sit up They're making fun of everything but they're like truth teller muppets Um, they don't actually do anything in the actual dawn ringers. They're speaking truth. Yes. Yep. Yep They're like the what is the Greek choir of the of the whole thing, right? Yeah, and So like the fact that they're talking about him says like this dude's happening to me Like I just absolutely believe the new fec book is going to introduce this kit We're going to get the the summer king. He's going to be a big ridiculous ghoul king Right, like this just feels like where the stories go. Will he have his own court? Yes, will it be the royal court? Do you think that and so then we'll get like Do you think it'll be a somewhat of a mockery of catechrose? I don't know. Yeah, that's a good question. I like will they do a whole diorama? Is that what you're asking me? Yeah, yeah, well, let's talk about models Let's talk about future models. That's my last slide here. I'm actually so I I brought together tom. I made a quick collage very simple of six or all of the sort of unsolved Rumor engines I could find That could potentially In my mind be fec or something related to fec Okay, like it's possible. I'm not saying they all are I'm saying they're like in the world of the aesthetic They're not clearly 40k things or a gun or a you know a box of sandbags or something like that, right? Okay And You know, so so these six are up here I don't think we're gonna get a catechrose like diorama. I don't I really don't I think we're gonna get him as like a standalone kingly figure right Catechrose is like a military general Right. He's served by these these Um, sort of attendance who are runners and messengers and spies and stuff like that, right? But he's ultimately like a julius caesar kind of character, right? Yeah Whereas the summer king is more like I don't know for lack of a better term. He's sort of He's arthur We're gonna keep drawing sort of mythological We'll see something chat a car at Sure. Yes Yes, but from a model standpoint what i'm proposing is something like chat a car, right? Where you have him and then maybe one or two attended That I can serve that I like maybe not a full court Right Yes That i'll 100 agree with something like what chat a car is I think is exactly the model they'll want to go with And in fact they'll they'll have to figure like how do we distance it from what that guy is? Because you look at chat a car. He's huge Comparatively Right. Yeah, and that's what I would expect for the size of this guy Like I would expect a chat a car sized model for sure for sure for sure Yeah, I would even suggest maybe something larger I wouldn't be surprised if they put him on a throne And had that throne being carried Like howling one style like I could see something like that potentially Because a big part of what they were going to want to communicate is the kingly nature And If he's going to like he could just be on a throne, but we just remember we just got a ghoul king special edition on a throne Yeah, and so if they do something like that it would be something either mobile Or it would be or it'll him be standing alone like on the field of battle being attended to By one or two Yeah, like that previous picture I just showed of him would be like a great piece of art to kind of work off of to base it from right like Not that exactly but like him Standing astride like looking to the side You know the field of battle with like a rusty sword in his hand and like a a flayed cloak Flowing behind him. That's just like tattered skins and and stuff like that right holding like a A Part like a ripped apart body Right that that instead of a shield or something like that or a rib cage or you know Whatever like that you could you could go all out and he could have all sorts of accoutrements on him and stuff That are sort of holy reliquaries to him in his mind, right, but they're of course actually just like horrific Bones and gore that's been reshaped into into sort of artifacts of power. Yeah I Wonder if I just as an aside. I wonder if Chattacar Like that started out as this model doesn't feel like it almost might have doesn't Like from a design standpoint because Usher on being more beastly and beastial like you would expect some of that with this With the way that they talk about it. Yep and Then as well with being attended to by smaller vampires or you know or Ghoulish type creatures like it just makes me wonder if That's how it started out and they're like no, we got about we get we're gonna take another bite at that apple But we'll use this for something else. Right, right. Yeah, it's it's funny You say that because I was like the same thought that came to my head as well Right was like man did that guy start I was like an early concept Where they were trying to to to get at usher on but then just couldn't fit him into the release or he didn't make sense And so they like we're gonna we'll make him, you know the real form of of Radicar or whatever, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah But you know these six models You you mentioned the new ghoul kit that we saw a leaked sprue of right that looks really good Um At the so like clearly the ghouls are in need of a redesign I don't think you're going to find anybody who's opposed to that Right, the little tiny hunched ghouls are like such a weird almost out of scale thing In in the current range they look like little children ghouls almost which is creepy in its own, right But I mean, it's you know, it just doesn't fit with the rest of the range, right? Um, you had said the horrors and the flares would stay I tend to agree with that Out of these sort of six images You know, you had mentioned the spear Right with the the skeleton hanging off of it is like In that that could be like a standard bearer for for a new unit, right because like to them That's a regal flying banner that's displaying their holy crest Right, but in fact, it's you know, nothing more than some tattered cloth and a pierced skeleton or something Um, I thought the same thing with the the skull and the beating art Thing like that's another one that kind of could be part of that or part of his whole setup By the way, the second image there could honestly be part of whatever the whole image of the summer king is like that's pretty ornate That that little creation there Um, the wings could be his wings the cloak could be his cloak Right, the little double-headed skull weapon could be like the new ghoul Weapon in their hands or something like that like all that stuff is seems possible to me What would you want to see as far as new units go besides besides I think I think we both Agree and think usher on is coming Right, and so like he seems like a slam dunk to me I I feel like we're definitely getting that guy and we're definitely getting new ghouls. That's our that's our sort of arid boys remake, right? Well, yeah, are we getting other new units? If so, what are we getting like? What do we need to add to this range? Both functionally ground up or story-wise top-down Like I would like something as the equivalent of like the pegasus knights. Yep. Yep I'm gonna take that one step farther I want something actually mounted Okay, correct Correct, like I get it. I get that the flares and horrors are supposed to be quote-unquote knights Like I can read keywords. I get the story. They're big They think they're a guy on horse or whatever But like you're not you've got four limbs not six or eight or whatever, you know, I mean like You know They're just not and so actually having something on Rotted horrific twisted mutant hungry cannibalized creatures like Creatures that have been infected with their madness with their hunger with their curse and have been like twisted into these sort of like exposed muscle Giant fanged monstrosities that they're writing But to them is like a regal pegasus And that would be an amazing kit right like and yeah Deeper than that like if we expand out and think about roles in the army One of the things this army really lacks Is any kind of animal right one of the classic problems of this army Is it just has no anvil right it relies on it's its durability is almost completely done through model regeneration right through the Yep, yep And I don't know if their mechanical work exactly the same in the new book or not My general feeling would be probably not that they'll probably reinvent that that mechanic You know of like the the courtier's Restoring models. Yeah, I mean I would I would love that for them to get rid of the courtier concept completely Yeah, I mean This is this the last is this the last army that we have that you build um You build something atypical out of the box contents and not actually Be able to achieve the thing that the box is made of does that make sense like it does like I think about the old Um storm themes with like the weird weapon loadouts and stuff like that or like Like the box contents breaking what you're actually building like is this the last holdout this army? It's the last one where it actually makes the unit quote unquote worthless or undersized or whatever And not and doesn't have some other option for it because the the other two examples of that still in the current ruleset are in stormcast and Uh neural at minimum there might be another one. I'm forgetting but both of those have like the the dragon lord and the um a hero Yeah, where it's like a hero. Yeah, but then in the book You have the option to take a single right like they've covered for that possibility So like if you buy the box and you make the hero then you can take a single dragon rider or you can take a single um blight lord, right um so Like this is the last one where they like it actually makes the unit not function I wouldn't mind. Can I have a question go for it? What if they just got rid of them as they currently are sure And had a clam shell hero that refills serfs and a clam shell hero that refills knights Yeah, yeah, just making that seems so like Done Like if you even want to keep it like locked in right yep And that's too and by the way those two that I just articulated could potentially build out of the same kit Sure, sure Yeah, your point being it's not like we're saying get rid of all quartiers forever We're saying like actually make kits to support that thing as opposed to hacking it out of the existing unit, right? So you have like the serf quartier and the knight quartier effectively, right? Which now their own standalone clam shell kits or box the small box kits or whatever hero box kits Yeah, these vargolfs were just generic quartier like they were just everybody quartier, right? Like you had a one another and then a both Yeah, and then also just give us the new vargolf like that's that's a thing I think we all want like it makes me so angry That we were so close to that with the the guy out of cursed city You know that was like almost that model again Like he's easily a replacement in quality plastic. He's a quality model And yet he like doesn't have wings and it's just a ground pounder jumpy dude Like why we were so close. Why did we make an updated slight variant and not actually just replace the freaking guy? Right It's so frustrating. Yep So the You know like and it could be that like gerion You just take that model for gerion the harbinger and you say you can build a generic version of him Right as it were sort of Yeah, yeah, like he doesn't maybe he doesn't always have to be like quote unquote the harbinger He could he can also be this that could be another way to go. I don't know Um But like the herald very yeah, he refills sir, right But I think that like if you I think that's just it I think maybe a knight ish unit something mounted on like a weird twisted flesh beast And usher on yeah redone ghouls redone vargolf I think if you were going to give them one other kit It would be interesting to give them a super heavy So what I mean by that is like you've got they have infantry and they have heavy infantry Right But they don't have a super heavy Infantry, sure. So this is like your six wound and above infantry, right? So think Think rat ogre's think Drakeoth riders think morgast Um, erikai, right? No, maybe the knights could be the super heavy ones. Maybe those dudes are like six wounds, right? Um, but again, I could see some twisted monstrosity. That's like usher on's personal court That are like the most heavily mutated heavily infected by the hunger You know sort of ravaging beasts like six seven wounds, you know twisted ogres something like that again So many of these things were almost there in cursed city. It's really funny right and Like I could see that being a warrior if that was the original intent and then they like spliced it in the sole blight Yeah, sure. I I don't know It is funny how close it is But like I look at something like those little tattered wings the sort of top right Uh rumor engine and I'm like that could be the bullflying thing. We're talking about right like the cool pegasus twisted knight We're talking about So, uh the the other option like one of my problems is I don't think they need another heavy infantry. I just don't Okay No, I would agree with that. I like horrors and flares are covered That we'd like the three four wound Range we don't need to we don't need anything else in that space right Yeah, I mean what I would say is this I could imagine a world where we change the role of the horror Okay to be more tankish Okay Um Like I could imagine a world where we give them something like unnatural um Unnatural longevity or unnatural something right and give them like an elevated ward save like a five up like they have a five up base Save but may or a six up base save but maybe you give them a four up ward or something like that. Sure like unholy Uh vitality or something like that and and you make them a tanky um You make them the the tanky unit make them six wound like I could see them changing now They just change the scroll. So I don't think that they probably won't change the scroll again Um, but I could see a world where they do something Yeah, the other option would be a more traditional like two wound infantry as as an anvil right where they could go to something like a Sort of the equivalent. I'm just I'm saying this very broadly right of cast warriors, hard boys Liberators vindictors, you know, like this is a very this is a super classic place and You know, these guys could be like your your armored foot knights. That's how they see themselves, right? Um, and they actually just carry like they're clad in in bone armor with like rib cage shields and stuff like that, right And they're like two wound heavy ghouls. Yeah, and and it's like, okay, they're They're two wounds they have let's say a four up save But they get a five up ward because of their like fanatical belief in their Reliquaries of all the bodies and stuff they carry Something like that could end up being their sort of they're the sort of infantry Thing I like a heavier anvil infantry thing that'd be very easy to imagine Because that's sort of like heavy armored Foot guys coming in fives or tens is like a super classic thing across a lot of aos and it would make sense in this in this army, right? Um, if those things are existing in the normal traditional army, then it makes sense We don't have to like just limit ourselves to what was Bretonia or something, right? Like we can expand the concept of delusional noble knightly houses, right? Um Yeah, I want to know when we're going to get our tribuchet Well, that's what I was going to ask you actually. It's funny you say that that was going to be my next question which is Here's my next question tom Should there be any ranged element introduced to this army? I mean, this is like a basically melee army Reams or a breath out of the air monsters and that's it Which is which means it has no range okay and It's fine. Not every army needs range, but when you look at something like iron draws another army with no ranged attacks Uh, it could borrow all the cruel boys shooty shooty bang bang Right, you look at corn. I wouldn't exactly call that a ranged army. It's quite melee But they they have like token ranged units. I guess in skull cannons or something like that, right? Um, but at least there's like something if your a person who wants to build that way So should this have a tribuchet or I don't know I I really can't picture archers, but you know, I don't know something like that should that kind of thing exist In this I mean if you were to do a tribuchet, it needs to be some type of like Giant throwing a rock Right like it needs to be something. That's not the thing Um, because I don't see them as a like they're not Your army as seen by all of their broken weapons and shit Yeah Let me give my answer which is no, I don't want them to have any ranged stuff Like bottom line. I just don't think it's necessary. I just don't leave them the speed to compensate or Again, they can still they should still have some model regeneration I'm not saying like oh get rid of all their healing or their model regen like it can still be there I just don't think it'll be the exact same rule But you know, it can still exist and have a place Right, that can be another way that they they survive Like they they counter the shooting meta by basically regenning back for when their enemy shoots them Right because they can refill their units. Okay. Cool. That's fine right but Yep And I think that kind of would cover the model range for me Like to me that's Uh That's a pretty good range if we had all that introduced and that could be a really radically different feeling army Like this is like this is three kits Four units away from just being a completely reinvigorated completely different force, right through ushran A flying knight A heavier, you know anvil infantry Whatever something like that boom something you're playing a different game on your hands, right some reinvigorated heroes like you mentioned We got it. We got a whole new whole new army here. It's going to feel completely different But but still like itself. I don't mean that in a negative way. I just mean like in it's in its capabilities It's going to feel like oh, this is actually a filled out melee army now Not just like a little appendix that they kind of wrote into a book using whatever they can scrounge up that hadn't You know, it wasn't kept by soul blight as it were that seemed like it was something that wanted to eat flesh basically Someone mentioned earlier the idea of should gorgers be allowed in this army like that new gorger unit that everybody Thought in the ogre gorgers. Hey, they both like eating stuff Or is it a problem because they're not dead enough? No No, doesn't that okay I'm saying no Okay fair answer fair answer It's all right Okay All right. What else anything else on fec? I mean, I think we pretty much reached the end of what we want to see I really I'm excited because as I sort of read the book and put that together and saw the iron jaws I wanted to do this show because I was like man I really think usher runs coming like I just I think they've telegraphed it so clearly through the hints that they've dropped and I'm pretty excited about what that dude could be Um, I really like painting some of the fleshier quartz models like I painted that dude on the throne. He was a lot of fun um, I just think these kinds of models are really really really fun to paint and so that makes me really excited about it and Getting a new up-to-date book. I think is going to be a really good time For this army, even though it will be theoretically late. I'm very late in the cycle that you are right that they are Metaphorically Bretonia as they they're going to get their book like late in the cycle and then the additional change a few months later yet again But uh Yeah, anything else you want to say on on fec or did we cover it all? No, I think that's I mean that's that's fec There you go. That's what I see Time will tell I hope I hope we're right. I hope some of these images are in fact these new units. We're talking about I hope we do see usher on I really believe we're going to Uh, sorry again everybody about the crappy internet through a lot of this show. It is what it is with the hotel Um, this is the best internet that they have and I tried But I'm glad we were still able to do the show. So I hope it was fun and the audio was good throughout Uh, but hey, if you liked it, uh, or just out of pity For us doing this on crappy internet. Hey, throw us a like, um, you know, subscribe But we'll be back. I'll be back at home next week not on the road. So we'll be doing this again with quality internet So subscribe up to catch that Don't forget folks. The new merch store is up and down in the show notes below We've got the new have you seen my wife's new shirt tom? The Kathy has her own shirt now with the dogs on it No, that's amazing Uh, I was told to remind you to take the dogs out. Oh very good. Yes. Uh, so very good. Um The the important but yes, Kathy has her own character now in our in our, uh What do I say pantheon of our of our characters and all three of the dogs she's like, uh She has a I think I think somebody said like lady kathenella the countess of canines is what we were going to call it right So she's like she's like a vampire lady with three dire dire wolf doggies Um, so check all that out. We've got t-shirts. I'm looking. I'm literally looking at it right now. It's adorable. Pretty great, right? Uh, so check out all the new merch new shirts new hoodies new cups and mouse pads and all sorts of fun Fun stuff with all of our characters and images on it. So check out the new store um And uh, as always you can support the show in the normal way share it around I guess maybe not this episode if you don't want to if we want people to come back But tell other people about it. We really appreciate it and we really appreciate you watching So yeah hit like do all those things as always We thank you so much for watching and putting up with horrible hotel internet video