 Our modern relationships doomed. Well, I'm very excited today to have a guest, Rabbi Manus Friedman, talking about ancient wisdom when it comes to love and relationships. So welcome Rabbi Friedman. Thank you so much for being on. Thank you for the opportunity. Well, I'll be candid with you. I've been following your channel for a bit a while and I must say, I really appreciate your perspective, your voice, but most importantly, you're speaking from a place of what, as I said, ancient wisdom. And I don't believe I was at a point in my life to listen until I got to this place in my life. And my audience and my demographic is mostly divorced people over 40 years old. And I'm curious to know why do you think the divorce rate is so high for first marriages and even higher for second and third marriages? Our modern marriage is doomed. That's a... Well, modern relationships are a very powerful way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah, they're doomed. Really? Why is that? Because they're not the real thing. You can't fool Mother Nature. Oh, I got to hear more. Please tell me more about that. Okay. So the reason marriages are failing, and we need to know this, by the way, no marriage is ever a mistake. Okay. Every marriage is meant to be. Okay. Every marriage is a soulmate. Okay. The fact that it ends in divorce simply means that being married to your soulmate is not easy. Indeed. People assume if it's my soulmate, and it's gonna be easy, smooth, enjoyable, natural, right? Yeah. But how many people are in conflict with their own soul? Indeed. So a soulmate may not be any more comfortable to you than you are with yourself. Well, do you believe... You said something a moment ago, in conflict with our own soul. I've observed in just my studies that most humans show up with childhood wounds and traumas and adult traumas that have gone unhealed in their life. And I think to some degree, they anticipate or desire a relationship to be the healing force. And yet by doing that, you're giving your power away to another person. Do you have any thoughts on that? That I think is getting right to the heart of the problem. Okay. That being intimate is giving away some of your independence or some of your uniqueness or whatever. And nobody wants to do that. So here's where we're in conflict with our own soul. Okay. Our soul hates being alone. For no particular reason. Our human nature, physical condition, loves being alone and wants to be totally independent. Really? Have you ever heard somebody say, leave me alone? No, I can see it. Okay. Now I'm kind of leaning into that. I see that now. You know, there is this propensity for autonomy. And I can understand that. Coming back to the soul though, the soul wants closeness. It wants connection. Is that right? Yes. The soul wants to stop being me, but my human nature is only me. Okay. So for example, people get married and then they complain that they're being stifled, that they need more elbow room, wiggle room. They don't have enough of me. Hmm. The purpose for marriage is to get past the me and become a we or us. You said something in a video I watched that I really appreciate. And since again, my demographic is that over 40 crowd, that divorce crowd that where we experience a lot of relationships, but very few actually enter into marriage. You said something that really, not just triggered me, but excited me with the idea of, you have to love the idea of marriage. Like you have to want it, not passively say, oh, if I meet the right person, I get married or if the right person, but there's this true desire. Can you explain expand upon that? Because that totally hit me right in the heart. And it's desperately lacking. People don't respect marriage. They don't believe in marriage. It's like kind of an addendum to a love affair. Okay. If you love each other, you're supposed to get married, but it's not marriage that's interesting. It's only the person or it's only the love that I'm getting from the person. So here's a very necessary important condition for marriage. Okay. You marry someone, not something. Okay. If you objectify the person, it's pornography. That's true. So are you marrying the person that you love or are you marrying the love that comes with that person? Too often today, we marry the love and then we're annoyed that this love comes with a person. True. I love you and therefore I have to put up with all of you. I just want the love. So we get married and we're blissfully happy and it's incredible and we make a big party and we invite all our friends. And two weeks later, we discover that the person you love has an opinion. I didn't marry you for your opinion, please. Keep your opinion to yourself. Just hand over the love because that's what I married you for which means I didn't marry someone, I married something. Oh, I got you. Well, what's interesting I've noticed in my practice is that a significant percentage of people are not marrying in midlife. They're experiencing, we hear terms like situationships or casual relationships, friends with benefits, those sorts of things. I'm noticing that that's become the most common relationship is a casual relationship. I believe that is dooming relationships. Casualness is dooming relationships. Do we have thoughts on that? I think you're right. You're calling it casual, they're calling it meaningful. Well, one person's calling it meaningful maybe and not the other. They're calling it, they finally found a meaningful relationship and it's not marriage. You're saying, well, if it's not marriage, then it's casual. Well, because in many cases and not always, it lacks a significant commitment. It lacks an all in. There's this, I feel like there's something about the all in, rich or poor, sickness, all the way the vows, at least the way I heard it growing up. There's some validity to that because it says no matter what happens, even if you're a pain in the ass and have an opinion, I'm still all in. And relationships that are casual are not all in. In many cases, not always. Yeah, so you have to wonder, what does it mean for better or for worse? Not for worse, I'm not staying married to you for worse. Yeah. So as soon as we fall out of love, it's over. Yeah. So I don't understand what people mean when they say we're making a commitment. You're in love with each other. Yes. But you're gonna get married to make a commitment. What are you committing to? To stay together without the love? No way. Okay. So what are you committed to? We're gonna stay together as long as we're in love. Okay. So what's the commitment? Well, I, so you said something, well, I wanna piggyback on that for a moment because I remember watching a video, matter of fact, today, you said, you know, media misleads, that is misleading regarding love. I believe you said love means a desire for closeness. And that really struck me. It's a, is it a call for closeness or is there something deeper to that? Oh, it's the pleasure of closeness. Okay. So you meet someone and there's something about them that appeals to you. Well, you want more. So now you're in love. You want more of that person. You want more of that pleasure, which is not sensible. Pardon me? That's sensible. It's real. Yeah, yeah. This is something you like, you want more. Well, I've observed coming back to what we talked about wholeness. Given that there's a significant percentage of people that have wounds and traumas and disappointments in their life and frustrations, that they want that closeness. They want, you know, they want some companionship. They want some connection. They want sex. They want some because they're not able to show up whole. They only want some of the good things and not willing to commit to all of that. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, the real, real marriage or real intimacy means not only I can tolerate the parts of you that are different from me. Okay. Not only can I tolerate the opinions you have that I cannot agree with or the needs that you have that I never even heard of. Okay. Not only can I tolerate it, that's what I love. Hmm. Because the reason for getting married is to bring someone other than me into my life. So I don't want to marry my clone. Okay. I want to marry someone who is not me, which means. So is it that you admire parts of the other person that may not be a strength within you, like someone has a certain quality that you admire that may not be a good, may not be a quality that you fully have adopted if you will, is that part of it that you see the things in them that you like that might be deficient within yourself? Oh, the things that I admire in the other person, that's easy. Okay. I admire it, of course, I want it in my life. Yeah. But I want the person I marry, even the parts I don't admire, I don't understand and I don't share. Okay. Because that's what makes her not me. Hmm. I see. I often think of, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie when Harry met Sally, but there's a woman who's a little bit neurotic and at the end of the movie, Harry says, I love the things about you that are neurotic. In other words, he fell in love with the things he didn't like as well as the things he did like. Which means he loves the person. So I want your take on something about sex today when it comes to the dating process, particularly because in the past, at least it was always reserved for marriage. And today it's almost in our environment, if you haven't had sex by the third date, you're not going to get a fourth date. Do you have any thoughts on how sex fits into this whole equation? Yeah, I remember this comedian saying, no decent woman would have sex on the first date. Okay. I hardly know you. On the second date? No, I hardly know you. On the third date? Oh, now I know you. What do you know? He says, all you know is that he can show up where you agreed to show up. Exactly. So yeah, it's funny. Yeah. We used to reserve sex for marriage. But another way of saying it is we used to reserve sex for intimacy. But back in the 60s, the wise social engineers decided that why does it have to be so serious? Why not just have free love, which meant recreational sex? Yes. Don't make it so heavy. Don't make it so serious. It doesn't have to be a commitment and it doesn't have to be an emotional entanglement. In other words, it doesn't have to be intimate. And we basically set off on a path of self-destruction because sex without intimacy is so distasteful. Yeah. And it grows more and more distasteful the more you do it. So you say, today's relationships are doomed. Yeah, they're also sexless. Mmm. The statistic today is that even couples living together are not intimate. They just don't. If they have sex once a month, it's enough. I've been told that's called a sexless marriage even if it's once a month. Yeah. I don't know if that's true. That has become the norm. And the excuses, you know, we both work, we're tired, we don't have time, we don't have energy. No, I think it's just the failure of sex. Sex is not that appealing without the intimacy. Well, I've also, you know, in my work, I talk about differentiate between physical intimacy and emotional intimacy. And particularly, I think when you take the emotion out of the equation, either you can live without it or not. But if, until the emotion is part of the equation, you know, sex, like you said a moment ago is just an act, maybe for pleasure. Why do couples have such a hard time building emotional intimacy in relationships? Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, that takes us back to what we started with. Yeah. Having an emotional intimacy means getting past the me, the me monster. Okay. I gotta do it my way. I gotta be me. You don't understand me. I gotta validate myself. I gotta take myself very seriously. I put myself first. All this pop psychology stuff. Okay. It's telling you that you should never compromise on your me, on your capital I. All that means is that you're going to live alone for the rest of your life. Cause if you can get past the me, you're alone. You're just me. And that's what, terrible. Well, to some degree, and I speak only here in the United States, we're rather a self centric population. It's a very me population to some degree. And I think even in the dating process, it's not what I can give, it's what I can get. You know, I've heard you talk before so much about, you know, I think you've said something along the lines that a relationship is with two givers, you know? And it seems to me in the dating process today in particular, it's more about what can I get from the other person? A real relationship involves a giver and a receiver. Yes. Which is more selfless? Which is more ego less? The desire to give or the ability to receive? I think sometimes receiving is much harder for people. I think a lot of people they desire to receive, but yet they reject receiving. They make it, you know, they're afraid to receive. I think that might be the harder thing to do. It's because we see particularly for women, I see so many women who are givers and they're people pleasers and they're always trying to convince someone and the other person is unable to receive. And women are unable to receive, which is totally unnatural. Can you expand upon that? Cause they all think they can. Or many do, I should say. Yeah, but there is a very widespread resistance to being receptive because it does intrude on your ego. Being receptive means surrendering. Oh, that's... Taboo. Oh yeah. People run the other way. So what are you surrendering really? Your welfare, your happiness, your meaningful existence. No, you're just surrendering your ego, which you can do without. But we're so afraid of that. Well, let me ask- We have a problem loving. We also have a problem letting yourself be loved. Yes, I would agree with that. I would very much agree with that. Well, I think surrender, I think for some, especially if they've been in a relationship where the man was the predominant leader of the relationship and he chose to end. And then now they're back out there in the dating realm and they feel a sense of fear giving up control because they were betrayed by another person. I can see how a person might feel that way. So this leads to a question I have for you about gender roles in relationships. Certainly throughout history, it's always been the man is the leader and the woman, for lack of better words, the follower. What are your thoughts on that for today's relationships? Well, I think it's true, but misunderstood. Okay. The woman's ability to be passive is more challenging. Scarier and demands greater strength than the desire to give, which is not so scary and not so personal, not so vulnerable. So I think the key word is the fear of vulnerability. We're terribly afraid to be vulnerable and yet we desperately want to be. Because without that, we don't get past our ego. Well, I would say this is true for men in particular too. I think men have a much harder time to be vulnerable, to be authentic, to be transparent because as a little boy, I was raised to stuff my emotions. I was told that violence equals masculinity. I was told that, you know, if I shared emotions, I'm a weak human being. And so many men stifle or are stoic in relationships. And yet I believe at the same time when you're vulnerable, that takes true courage. Yeah. So that's one of the new discoveries in psychology is that vulnerability doesn't come from weakness. It comes from strength. And the strength is I don't have to be me. I can be bigger than me. Not only that, I don't wanna be me that is so limiting, it's so confining, it's so tiny. I wanna be bigger than me because it's the only way to achieve some significance. Being me is not significant. I did it my way. But what do you think everybody else does? Everybody does it their way. You can't help but do it your way. It's not an accomplishment, that's something to be proud of. If I could do it your way, that takes a little talent. Interesting. So, well, I've noticed that as people age, they become set in their ways, you know, like of the older we are. And maybe because we've had to adapt to life, you know, whether it's been on our own or feeling like your own, that it's scary to try something new. I heard Jay Shetty share that, you know, a happy relationship is where two people can learn something new together and at the same time be of service together. Do you have any thoughts on that? Be of service to each other? Well, both service to other, but also to be of service to humanity, to give more outside of the me, if you will. Yeah, I think it follows. If I can get past the me and include you in my life, well, the next step is I can include a community in my life. And then I can include a country in my life. I can include humanity into my life. But the first step is, is there one person you can include in your life? Or is that asking too much? Yeah. So, well, it's interesting because I've been watching some shows like the Jewish matchmaker and Indian matchmaker. And I'm finding it fascinating for a variety of reasons. But what I appreciate most is the family is part of the decision-making process in this union. It's the siblings in such a part of the conversation. We integrate more than just the surface. And I really, I'm really enjoying these shows, but more importantly, the recognition that the dating process should be more than just the I or the me. It should really be more about the we beyond the person, but also what comes with the we. Do you have any thoughts on that? I agree with you 100%. People say, you're marrying the person, not the family. No, you're marrying the family. Who are you kidding? Of course, you're marrying the family. And if you don't wanna marry a family, you don't wanna marry anybody. Well, when we think of marriage though, and again, I'm probably hyper-focusing on relationships because I do believe people aren't marrying. They're entering into a union that I call casual, but they're not really going that all in peace. And this is something I really try to encourage my audience, my followers, if you will, to recognize that if you're not all in, you're only gonna have a part-time experience. You're gonna have maybe part-time intimacy. You're gonna have part-time connection. And quite frankly, there's gonna be a lack there. I think because my audience is women, they tend to want commitment. It seems like more so than men. So why do you think women want commitment more so than men, and why are men less likely to commit as they age? I think men have a much weaker ego, a much more fragile ego. Okay. The need to prove ourselves is so deep because we live with this fear of not accomplishing anything. Yeah. And at the end of life, I have nothing to show for myself. That's so scary. Yeah. I like this little comedic routine. The guy says, when I was young, I was determined to be the best at everything. Okay. I got a little older and I realized that's not gonna happen. And I decided I'm gonna be the best at least one thing. Okay. I got a little older and I realized I am not gonna be the best at anything. So then I wanted to just be good at something. Okay. Now he says that I'm really older. If my wife writes on my tombstone, he was okay, I'll settle for that. That's a funny story. Well, I want to kind of come what it shows. Yeah. We're terrified of amounting to nothing. Women don't have that fear. Interesting. So the women want a meaningful relationship because they're so ready to give themselves completely to the relationship. They just can't find somebody who will match that willingness. Interesting. You know what? Now that you say this out loud, that really resonates with me. That seems to be aligned with what I experienced working with women in the dating realm. So as I come to a close, I'd like your take on something. And that is how can people meet a really good partner in their life? How can they meet that person that really is their soulmate that they could most likely go the distance? Because the dating apps, if you will, and I'll just put up my phone here, I think has bastardized the process of meeting people. Do you have any thoughts of how, right? For my audience, how can they actually meet that soulmate partner? Because that's the question they always ask. How can I meet the one? So I've been telling people who pray because they wanna get married. Okay. And I say, what exactly is your prayer? And they say, I ask God to help me meet someone. Okay. He was a ridiculous prayer. You're always meeting. You wanna meet someone? Yeah. Why can't you ask for what you really want? Okay. You really want to be married. You don't wanna meet someone. If you're looking to meet someone, you don't wanna get married. You know that famous line from the piano man? From what? The song, piano man. Oh, yes, yes, yes. They're sharing a drink they call loneliness, but better than drinking alone. Yes. There's loneliness and there is aloneness. Okay. If you're lonely, you wanna meet someone. Yeah. But to cure the aloneness, you have to marry someone. So... So if you wanna date someone, if you wanna date someone, if you wanna have a relationship with someone, you're just solving the loneliness, you're not solving the aloneness. So I think it's important for people to know living together, dating is not a relationship. It's not a meaningful relationship. It's no relationship at all. It's a roommate. Don't call it a relationship. Don't treat it like a relationship because it's not. And when people say, I can't believe my boyfriend cheated on me. Okay. He's cheating with you. He's not married to you. So if he can have... Interesting perspective. Yeah. If he can have a good time with you, why can't he have it with someone else as well? So they treat dating like it's a marriage. It's a monogamy. Yes. Could you cheat on me? Because we're not married. So don't get sanctimonious about living together. Okay. But here's the problem. Not only don't you have the benefits of a marriage, you're gonna pay the price as if you were married. You're gonna hurt, you're gonna be insulted, you're gonna be rejected, you're gonna be heartbroken. So you have all the disadvantages of a marriage and none of its advantages. So... Okay, then I'm gonna... Married. If you wanna get married, it's what you gotta do. Okay. Put marriage first. You wanna be married? Then say so. Don't say I wanna meet somebody. Okay. Don't say, if and when I meet the right person, I'll get married, then you don't wanna get married. Yeah. Put marriage before the person. You wanna be married, give me a date. By when? When do you wanna be married? Well, when I meet, no, no, no, no. On the calendar, you wanna be married in four months? Six months? Within the year? If it's more than a year, you don't really wanna get married. Interesting. Pick a date. And just enough time to find a caterer and a haul. Now, do you pick the date before you meet the person or... Yes. Okay. And from the time, huh? When you meet your date, you take out your calendar, first date and say, I am scheduled to be married in June. Okay. And the women say, oh, you can't do that, they'll run away. Yes. Exactly. If they can't handle being married by June, you don't wanna spend your time with them. You don't wanna waste your time on them. You wanna be married and they don't. Then get rid of them. Yeah. I think the greatest tragedy is a couple dating for three years and then the guy decides he's not gonna marry you. I agree, I agree. That is cruel and unusual punishment. Three years of your life, it's terrible. So if you wanna be married, then plan a marriage. Don't ask to meet somebody. Ask to plan the marriage. I love, you know what? I think, and this is a great place to close because I really needed to hear this from you. I wanna share this from a personal perspective. I needed it for both personally, but more importantly, this actually amplifies what I've been talking more about. And part of this is because of your teachings. I've really adopted the invitation. If you don't love the idea of marriage, then don't go out there wasting other people's time. Absolutely true. Yeah. And Rabbi, the purpose of marriage is to never feel alone again. That is not gonna happen by living together. It's not gonna happen by having a date. It's not gonna happen by sharing sex. It won't happen. So marriage is still the best idea. It's a divine idea. And it's the only way we get to be bigger than ourselves. Yeah. I love this. Rabbi Freeman, from the bottom of my heart, I wanna thank you so much for allowing me to really get your perspective. And I do believe this is ancient wisdom that has a lot of value. And I'm going to promote this over and over and over again, particularly the importance of marriage. So I just wanna thank you so much. By doing this, you are part of the solution, not part of the problem. Ah, well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. All right, well, thank you. I'm just ending the.