 We're back on Think Tech. It's 5 p.m. on a given Wednesday. We have Russell Kecoa-Colar In Washington, DC joins us by Skype to talk about the the turmoil in Turkey welcome again to the show Russell nice to have you Thanks. It's great to be here Well the news around here the today was the death of Mark Takai Congress Mark Takai. I'm sure you knew him. He was there with you in Washington, and he was a really good guy I think everyone liked him He was he was close to Think Tech He'd been on our shows a number of times both before and after he was elected to the house And most recently on March 11th when he came around that was after he had announced his pancreatic cancer And so we feel very close to him and very sorry for his passing He was dedicated to the country dedicated to public service did a lot for the state and for the country I feel bad about his passing you knew him what your thoughts about this? You know, it's it was a shock to us all I myself work for as a in an internship capacity senator Brian shots and and it was it it was a shock to all the staff We did not think that the his his cancer would progress that that quickly. I know a bunch I you know, we all know a lot of his staff We know them very closely and so it's really heartbreaking to see such a young and up-and-coming Politician especially from Hawaii coming out of the the real promising class of young politicians which include senator shots representative Tulsi Gabbard and and Mark to Kai and and to be honest he was the perfect Person that you wanted as I know a congressman representing you a good all-around person with a with a nice healthy family no scandals Veteran yeah, and somebody who actually cared about doing the job So our hearts go out our hearts go out to his family to the people around him Too bad. We lost him. It was too early Condolences in any event Russell. Let's talk about what happened in Turkey It was only a few days ago and mr. Erdogan has Survived and we need to know the circumstances in the inner workings and hidden mechanisms of what appears to be an attempted coup Some have suggested that it was a put-up coup. So what do we know about it? Well the first active you gave President Erdogan is quite adept He is a survivor that what that's what he's done throughout his entire political career from when he was thrown in jail by the Kamalists before he was in office to now having survived survive this Potential military uprising From what we know now it seems like the government is not only in control but is actively pursuing a campaign of purging the rest of President Erdogan's political enemies throughout the country which include the military as well as even in the education sector the police As well as throughout the country and in the universities They was Unpredictable to most if not all analysts scholars people who follow Turkey. We had actually believed Truly that a military coup in Turkey was Was as Probable as a war between Germany and France It was we had thought that if the president president Erdogan had significantly lessened the political power of the military throughout his tenure and The military had fallen in line As it were with the AKP and the the governing structure So when everything did start off at 7 30 Friday night Istanbul time You can imagine world leaders not only myself, but every world leader was glued to their television sets and especially getting The right amount of information in their ear Yeah Well, I'm yeah, so there's a bunch of things to what to talk about here You say that it was it was not seen coming and yet She was they they tried to do a coup on him And what why I mean, what was what were they so concerned about? What was the disenchantment that led to the coup and Before I proposed I do have to have a somewhat of a disclaimer I do understand that Turkey has had four previous military coups throughout its history but this in these current political conditions in this era of Of the status of the Turkish military. This was quite unprecedented and even with the With the occurrences in Turkey's past and in this in the 1960s 1970s and the last major coup in 1980 and the last sort of Military political uprising in the 90s This was definitely a different situation. It looked like that the there were some Nationalist Kemalist sections of the Turkish military That really had gotten to the point where they had had enough with with president Erdogan's tenure and in office He according to them he had Significantly eroded the rule of law the constitutional structure and the role of secularism Traditional role secularism in the Turkish Republic. Now. This is a simple way of explaining it. It's much more complicated And there are many layers to this To this event But I'd love to delve into into it was not like a continuation of the the riots that took place What three four years ago in taxon park in Istanbul? Where I think you can correct me, but that was really essentially telling him that He should remain secular because he was moving off secular The country's balanced because it is ever since out of Turk in the 1920s the modern Western if you will Western nation and Mr. Erdogan has been moving, you know, maybe away from that So is this the same kind of thread happening now? You one could say that one could say that you could say that the political and Civil and as well as social instability that had come out of the case of park protests out of the December 2013 corruption scandal Uprising's that this was the military coup was a Really a climax of all of those symptoms leading up to and so and this can even we can even You know postulate that that the current War against pkk as well as the war against Isis also factors into the decision-making of these military commanders Because what was interesting and unprecedented with this specific military coup is that the Turkish general staff the top generals basically our chief of staff if we were to compare they had no parts in the Turkish the military coups planning or plotting and so Every coup in Turkey beforehand had been planned and executed by the Turkish general staff and had been led Legitimately through these top military commanders This current military coup that happened over the weekend Was done by division commanders base commanders that had banded together organized and had sought to sort of get a have a bandwagon effect as Try to control the message take control of the most important cities and have other units throughout the country You fall in line behind them Unfortunately for them it didn't happen as well. It wasn't executed as well as they they had hoped and And the general staff participate to the general staff go along did the general staff resist to try to stop them so that one Interesting aspect of this particular coup is that the chief of the chief of the general staff of the Turkish military So the top general of the Turkish military. He had actually been taken hostage within an hour of Of the events that have unfolded and he was actually forced upon gunpoint to declare the The military coup over over broadcasting networks. So it seems like the general staff had either There was no resistance. It looks like physical resistance But they had not gone along with the plan or nor supported it Well, they got they they got a certain, you know distance in right? It was not completely at the outset They made some traction on this and took over the media as I recall How far did they get before they were stopped and how did he stop them? Yes, it looks like the main objectives were taking control of the two largest cities in Turkey Istanbul of course and Ankara the Nations capital, which is makes sense. You want to take control of the government? and Their secondary objectives were the broadcasting centers Tehre Teh, which is the state-run media organization CNN Turk along with a number of smaller broadcasting networks in Istanbul. They were able to take Both of the bridge it take control of both of the bridges on the Bosphorus bridges pretty quickly But unfortunately what they had not counted on was the heavy resistance that they would have they would face by municipal police as well as the police forces and police commanders that were that remained loyal to President Erdogan and the Turkish government and so what we saw was a A a crew that had executed its primary and secondary objectives quickly But had not expanded beyond there and and it seems like they had not According to a couple analysts on this on the subject They had not they did not truly understand how to control the message throughout the country the one thing the biggest mistake that that they had They had done was Not controlling social media Not controlling the internet Whether that be cutting it off or at least controlling the the airways Yeah, they should have been very akamai about that because in fact that's been a big feature in Turkish politics and Mr. Erdogan has used social media to his advantage for a long time Absolutely, and it's quite ironic actually because you know during the Gezi Park protests which you had seen I had seen myself He had Had the exact opposite reaction to the use of social media and those specific occurrences He found social media to be the enemy where he had pursued legal proceedings and had actually had laws passed allowing the state to Band certain certain social media sites during a period of crisis. What that crisis is It's dependent upon the president or the prime minister and this in the coup however, the president was handicapped because he was outside of the Continental Turkey, I suppose he was he was outside of the country in and I on an island called Marmaris and on vacation and He had no ability to get on TV Within the country and so he had actually used FaceTime on his phone in order to call out to his supporters to not only resist the coup but to flood the streets and And fight for your democracy now for a man that has utilized repression jailed Jailed anyone with with with opinions of dissent has one of the worst records of independent journalists and investigative journalists to have that amount of Hypocracies is quite amazing actually It's really interesting But he worked in what works to his favor You know the big lie effectively He made some traction and and stopped them and when we come back from this break Russell I want to talk about how bloodless this coup was or maybe wasn't I know that 250 people died But let's talk about how that happened. We'll be right back What a guy yeah, I know right? He's really is the ultimate Hootspah. Oh Absolutely, and there are there are more things that I was Aloha My name is John why hey, and I actually had a small part to do with what's happening today Served actually in public office But if you don't already know that here's a chance to learn more about what's happening in our state By joining me for a talk story with John why hey every other Monday Thank you, and I look forward to Your seeing us in the future We're back. We're live with Russell K. Koehler in Washington, DC in the heart office building there And here's think-tech global talking about the turmoil in Turkey Over that recent coup. So yeah, the the coup is really interesting the way the tide turns Almost immediately and the way Erdogan takes control of it using social media, but then some people died. What happened? what looks like most of You know, and it's unfortunate when any death occurs, especially when it is a nation fighting itself it looks like most of the deaths occurred and and a number of different operations in which the The military coup plotters had been assaulting an arrangement of policies government offices fighting against municipal police officers and military police officers as well as when Finally when the tide did turn in the government's favor those subsequent operations by government supporters Executing operations against the coup plotters and there were a number of civilian deaths most significantly there was an incident on one of the boss first bridges where a After the president had called his supporters out to the streets and to fight for their democracy They had confronted the soldiers unarmed with Turkish flags shouting, you know, we fight for a democracy a lot of Akbar a number of range of different things and in one instance the soldiers did open fire on Onto the crowd it looks like the death toll has stayed under 300 which is Very very fortunate, especially during a military coup But it looks like around 1,500 people were injured throughout the the proceedings Yeah, that's troublesome in the sense that you know back in the days of tax and square the soldiers and the police were Fighting people, but they were not using real bullets. They were using rubber bullets and batons and Gas but not real bullets. There were very limited casualties because of that when you start firing into a crowd You're you will kill people and that was really you're right. You're the point that that these were their own countrymen Gee, that's that's pretty bad. So, okay, so now he's able to take over One thing I wanted to ask you So some some commentators have suggested that he he set this up himself But this was a ruse in order to get into a position Where he could deal with people he considered his enemies and be repressive, you know to justify repression Is there anything is any truth to that? You know, I've heard this this theory Actually quite often whether that be on Facebook or through Turkish friends or a friend that I just talked to a couple days ago over the weekend and You know simply for me, that's just giving too much credit to a man that has really relied on instincts and adaptability and having a survival survivors mentality to really plan and execute Something like this to this scale for me when I look at Erdogan present Erdogan's Political career it sort of looks like a large high and low period. He gets to a point where he seems Fairly overconfident. He seems like he thinks himself the country is in his control all of the mechanisms He's you know wheeling and dealing and then a period of civil unrest social instability something he can't control and then he reacts And then the same thing happens after the Gazy Park protests were completely crushed Another period of overconfidence. He feels like the country is his again And then December hits corruption scandal a period of love survives that completely crushes his Political enemies and the so-called FETO organization the UNIS organization, which he's blaming for this coup as well and he feels feels like he's in a period of overconfidence and then the war with the pkk and the terrorist attacks By ISIS and so what I see is a man that really relies on on the moment and Utilizing these moments to his advantage. I don't think he is I don't believe personally that he was able to plan and execute this specific Coup however What I can confidently say is that he will use the outcome to Significantly consolidate power within Turkey and make sure that this never happens again and so Where we go from here where the country goes from here? I'm I'm not particularly sure But I do know that it will be a it'll have a much darker shade of authoritarianism. Yeah well Yeah, I just I wonder you know how people feel about it because the repression is not a good thing Here is this has been a democracy. Although as you say it's had its ups and downs And I wonder you know whether his repression is going to make it less of a democracy and more of a Strongman rule. I mean they call him a strong man And and how people feel about that any thoughts Well, it's interesting the Probably the most fascinating aspect of a president Erdogan and looking back on his Almost 13 years in power now Is the fact that he he doesn't It looks like he's isn't repulsed by democracy. He actually has utilized democracy in order to In and really limit liberty. That's really what it is that Turkey is an illiberal democracy Which has elections that are free but unfair if that makes if that makes any sense He's somebody that will always utilize the will of the people of course his supporters in order to continue his political mandate throughout the country and so what that forces him to have to do is really look to Inhibiting the power of his political opponents and through really any means possible and a lot of times what he's able to Legitimate, you know all of these policies with is one single unifying factor And that's unfortunately what we've seen is religion Even during the coup and this is probably we spoke a little bit about this and in break but I was I had the opportunity to Be in good contact with my friends in Turkey as the coup was occurring and a very good friend of mine Had said that the mosques the route Istanbul to where she was had been blaring For hours non-stop Whether it be the call of prayer usually it's five times a day and it's called the prayers Her brother city, but in this case they had actually been the imams had actually been calling for people to Rise out of their houses rise out of their where they were and fight for their democracy This is a this is a struggle that you need to fight for and so really The government the elected government of Turkey president Erdogan has Significantly and I'm not sure maybe this is part of the pieces of where He really has infiltrated and really eroded the separation of religion and state in Turkey, but if you have a You know a unifying a unifying factor a legitimizing factor such as Religion Behind you You can really get a movement going in Turkey especially. Yeah, absolutely And it seems like most of the people that had actually been called out and rose up against the The military coup plotters where we're Erdogan supporters But also were influenced by the fact that the mosques had been enticing people to go demanding people go It sounds like things are not only swinging to a repression, but they're swinging to religion Which is what you know the problem has been he's swinging in that direction And he relied on support from the religious end of things in order to beat back the coup So we're gonna have a more religious turkey now what we will what we will see and what we have seen is present Erdogan create and hold these specific alliances within the politics of Turkey and one of those is that which is now becoming more and more apparent is the the religious class Within in Turkey, and it looks like he's been able to you know At least for them be the guy that they would rather have in power than anybody else. Yeah, and so what we will see is a turkey that may be more religious as Long as it serves President Erdogan's interests that is that is the big difference when he comes out pretty good on this He beat them back that you couldn't he didn't have to happen that way He and gave him the opportunity to cleanse his his army of anyone who might oppose him And it gave him an opportunity to you know put his Political rivals out of commission too at the end of the day I think it's clear at all and he's sort of surfaced this the whole Support system in the religious end of Turkey. So at the end of the day seems to me that he's more powerful Than he was a week ago and I'm likely to you know, I'm probably more popular. Don't you think more popular as well? certainly, I mean people you know, unfortunately people love winners and He is a survivor. He wins And whether or not his winning is bad for the country going forward, which it is His supporters war will support him more and more people young people who are starting to grow up within this political system May turn to him as really the only choice. Yeah, well, that's you know, let's look We only have a couple of minutes left Russell and I wanted to ask you about the you know The the the larger implications You know in that region the implications for dealing with terrorism dealing with ISIS And Turkey, you know, I always say Turkey's a capstone there. It has a certain moderating effect on the Middle East This this isn't moderate what happened and what's happening and I this is a hard question now But how is this coup going to affect Turkey's ability to deal with terrorism and how is it going to affect Turkey's position? politically Geo geopolitically in the region Well, it really could go both ways because this coup could allow Could allow and this is one of the scenarios. I don't necessarily agree with this but it could allow our to one to significantly Reduce the amount of opponents within that he has within the Turkish military within the bureaucracy to allow him to more effectively Execute what he wants to do whether that is going after ISIS a little bit harder going at the pkk a little bit more significantly We'll see but along my own personal opinion. I believe that this provides a real issue here With regards to Turkey's ability to not only combat terrorism but to To accomplish what it really wanted it through its ambitions Which was to become a not only a regional player, but a global player and the fact that you are fighting with yourself Militarily it doesn't bode well. I mean just just today There have been over 35,000 Security officials purged out of the military the police as well as the other security bureaucracy 99 of 356 Jen Turkish generals have been detained and so This is where you can see really the real issues that not only the Turkish military But going forward Turkish security as a whole is going to have to deal with very troubling very troubling Well, thank you Russell Russell K. Kohler Kohler on the turmoil in Turkey joining us by Skype from Washington We'll check back with you. I am sure for a moral certainty Russell on more from Turkey and more from you Thank you so much. You're welcome. Jay glad to be here again