 Roedd o'r cyfnodd i chi'n gwneud o gyda Ieddaeth, y cynhyrchu ar gyfer Ieddaeth yn cael ei wneud i'r cyfnodd o'r ffyrdd. A oedd y plenariad oedden nhw ynglynig, mae'r Gweithio'r Ffyrddol deunydd, y bydd y bydd yn gweithio'r cyd-fyrdd, o'r byd y bydd y fferdd, o'r cyfnodd o'r cyfnodd o'r cyfnodd o'r ffyrddol a'r blaen. Rwy'n fynd i'ch ei wneud i'r cyfnodd o'r cyfnodd. The Bill 6, to introduce stiffer punishments and punitive measures to combat and prevent kidnapping in Nigeria. Joining us to discuss this are legal practitioners Tungi Abdul Amid and Ngozi Akandu. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. It's a pleasure to be here. Tonight we've had so many lawyers on the show so it's interesting. I'm going to start with you by Sarkandu. A lot of people are wondering what this particular bill would change in the scheme of things. Now I'd just like to let you know that states also have some form of anti-kidnapping bills or other acts and laws that are already somewhat tailored to deal with the issue of abductions and kidnappings. So the first question is what difference would this particular bill, if it becomes law, make? To be honest with you, I do not expect much difference to be made, especially in the aspect of availability of laws or acts to take care of the problem of kidnapped terrorism or so on and so forth in Nigeria. Much difference would not be made because we already have a lot of laws, a lot of acts that have to do with this particular problem in the country. The only way or aspect where we would expect something to change might be the angle of enforcement. If only enforcement can become more pursued with respect to these situations in the country, I think the expected change would have taken place. If the enforcements are not enhanced or made better than they have been in the past few years, then I don't think any difference should be expected. Let's look at the states and the laws that they have. Now, we know that Anambra, Nugu, Abia or your cross-reviate or by also bolchi states, they already have anti-kidnapping bills. At the state level since 2008, many of these state governments have already introduced their own anti-kidnapping laws in an attempt to combat the crimes. But looking at what this bill, which has gone past its second reading on the floor of the National Assembly, is seeking to do, it wants to eliminate the present timeframe for reporting and prosecuting defilement cases in Nigeria, as well as remove gender restrictions on the offence of rape by further educating on propensity of rape on both male and female victims. Now, this is one of the bills that is going to be under this anti-kidnapping, and that's mostly for rape. According to the senator that pushed for this, he's also saying that because this is a major security challenge across the country as we speak, he's also pushing that the punishment that used to be, they call it light. They're saying they want it to be stiffer for those who are kidnapping, but I still ask the same question. Can the ones that we already have not be amended instead of rewriting a new one and making it law? I think they are not writing a new one. They are amending the current criminal code ads. That is the position there. In other words, what I'm trying to tell you is that we have criminal code, we have criminal code. The criminal code applies only to the southern part of the country. Why the criminal code applies only to the northern part of the country? The proposed amendment now only relates to the criminal code as the southern part of the country, not in the entire country. The law, as it is now, will only affect the southern states. I think the proposed amendment in that bid is important amendments, but I am of the feel that that amendment or even a new one cannot cure the problem on grounds. Because our problem is not about a lack of law. We have so many laws like my colleague said. But we haven't seen many prosecutions in terms of these abductions. Let's start by the very famous kidnapper in Nigeria, Evans. Where is he? Where is his case? So maybe that's also part of the problem. That's exactly where I'm going to now. That the problem is not about law. We don't lack law. We lack enforcement. That's our problem. Even if you have a law that now brings a death sentence and a life imprisonment or whatever, it may not even change anything. Because we have a law already on grants that will get in a death sentence in terms of the amrobrey and the murder. People are sickly people. So you see the problem we have in this country is about enforcement. We don't enforce our law. We don't punish people for the crime. I'm sorry, I want to disagree with you a little bit. Evans has been arrested. He's in custody. He should be having his day in court. In fact, by now, it's taken years. By now, shouldn't he have been sent? So should we be saying that the problem is with the judiciary system? Because I don't know if we can place this at the foot of the police who are the law enforcers. They have done their part. They've done their bit. Every single Nigerian was holding on to that string of hope that when Evans is made to hang, using the word hang loosely here, it might have set some precedents or become some form of deterrent for whoever wants to go in that way. But we're seeing more and more of these abductions because someone like Evans is still yet to have his day and justice is yet to have its course. You're agreeing with me. I'm agreeing with you. That's what I'm saying. There are some enforcement. It's slow, even where there is. And we're even talking about Evans. Is he only Evans that we have? People in the north, there are kidnapped students and whatever. How many of them have been arrested? How many of them have been prosecuted? We have so many of them. What they are doing is kidnapping. Those who have been carrying our students and all those. That is kidnapping. How many of them have been arrested? How many of them have you seen? How many of them have been paraded? We are being told by the ministers that they will not declare their names. They are declining names of those who are in debt and who are corrupt. The law is there that they remember the law that the law says you cannot publish names because they have not been convicted. But in terms of a kidnapping, those who have been kidnapped in the north or in the other part of the country, they say they will keep their name to their chief. You see that's why we are having the problems. The problem is that those who are in charge are not enforcing the law the way it should be enforced. They are not taking proper action in terms of punishing people who have been committing crimes. That is why people are being encouraged to do more. The issue is not about the law. If you like one who does the law every day and makes it decented every day, nobody will not change anything. If you don't have the will to enforce the law. The problem is about enforcing the law. Changing of the law. Like I said, the proposed amendment is very important. In defyment and rape matters, we have time limits. We are faced sometimes with people from bringing out a case after a while. It is very important. But now we stand in that. That will not change much in terms of kidnapping in this country. Because we are not dealing with those who are kidnapping. We are seeing them with levity. We are even considering amnesty for people who have been kidnapping people. Who have been killing people. So sad. I don't have any hope that they will see or anything. Let me go back to Baisa Khan. Baisa Khan, you want to come in. Go ahead. Something slightly. I want to add slightly to the events example. I think the events situation is a portrayal of the enforcement problem we have in this country. We begin to look into these things or begin to concentrate on a particular case when suddenly it becomes sensational. It becomes too public to be ignored. That is what the events case has shown to us. We calm down. We become silent. We settle down. We become like a bicycle to enforcement of all these laws and all these acts until something very sensational happens. Then you see them begin to make noise all over the place. It is not as if we don't have a plethora of instances where kidnaps and all these crimes are taking place. But it's just that when somebody becomes unlucky enough to come into the eye of the public. You see it becomes sensational. Noise is being made all over the country. This goes to show the problem of enforcement we have in this country. We don't enforce laws until something goes out of hand and becomes a public knowledge. Then you see the whole world becoming aware of it and then we can't run away from it. That is what the events thing has shown to us. To borrow your own words, get out of hand. The number of abductions and even kill deaths that have resorted from these abductions. Have they not gotten out of hand? The question I wanted to ask you before you chimed in on the issue that Abdulameed raised. What do you think the challenge is in terms of enforcement? Is it lack of expertise? Is it drain drain? What exactly could it be because we have our police, we have the soldiers, we have the joint task force. These people are all working together to read us of these bandits and abductions and kidnappings. What do you think the challenge is? Because one minute we see a Shagumi going into where these bandits are having meetings with them. Now we even hear that some security personnel accompany him. But then we hear that we cannot find these bandits. We do not know where they are. I really do not know what is the challenge really with the enforcement and making sure that these people are brought to justice. It is not difficult to throw away the possibility of compromising things like this. There have been suggestions all over the place of people gaining from what is going on. Even though we may not be able to point hands at one or two persons. In the past few weeks there have been expositions of names of people who are one way or the other connected with these bandits. You see the federal government not playing to our expectation of bringing these people to look. It raises questions of complicity. When you expect the federal government to do something, they appear to not be that serious. I think we are having connection issues with Barysa. I am going to toss it back to what Dylan made. Are you with me? Okay, you are back. Great, go ahead. We lost you for a second. We have an instance of a few days ago. I think I read it. Oh dear, the connection is on again. I am saying some more. Are we still having the connection issue? Yes, we can hear you now. Okay. We had an instance a few days ago. I was reading the Guardian newspaper where Barysa Femi Falan and some other lawyers were my friends. We are talking about how the federal government is being slow in prosecuting terror suspects. Even though the federal government a few months ago, before the judicial worker strike, said that it was only the judicial worker strike that is holding them back or delaying them from such prosecution. Now, the strike has been over for over two to three months. We still haven't had anything from the federal government. It goes to show that sometimes you begin to ask questions. Is it that we are not interested in getting these people prosecuted or there is something we are missing? There was also this instance of... Do we have to wait for the federal government? Look at me as a greenhorn now. Do we have to wait for the federal government to prosecute these said people? Because it's out there. There is a list of people. Even though the federal government is saying they are not interested in naming and shaming, but I remember vividly where the AGF said that they are more interested in bringing them to justice. So even if there is no public naming and shaming, if these names are with the... Take for example, the attorney general, can people who are through the FOI or something not get that information so that these people can be prosecuted? Again, look at me as a greenhorn. I do not understand the processes, but maybe you can help us. Yes. The process of criminal justice or prosecution starts with the requirement of charges against suspects. And only the attorney general of the federation or the attorney general of the state has this power to commence prosecution procedure. Or somebody to whom a threat to commence or proceed with such prosecution is given or awarded. Without those things happening, without the attorney general of the federation commencing this procedure, it cannot happen. And then he knows he or the attorney general of the states know they have these powers which they can exercise or refuse or fail to exercise. So the powers they have are so strong and almost absolute that if they sit and say, we will not prosecute, nothing happens. And they have the law to back them up in that line of thought, in that line of action. So they can decide not to prosecute and nothing can happen. That is why we are looking up to them, looking onto them, say, do this with the law says you must do. Why are you not doing it? You made a promise that you're going to do this. You have not done it yet. But he has been promising. I think there was an interview he granted recently where he said that modernities are being put in place to make sure that these things will take place. These prosecutions commence and conclude the way they were expected to. But we still haven't seen anything yet. That is why these lawyers, we all have been complaining. Why the delay? Why are you not prosecuting these people? That's a challenge we are having. Finally, Tunji, in the absence of them not doing this or if they decide not to or they do not follow through as we have seen many times, what then happens? Because we're all on the one hand trying to put an end to the abductions. We're trying to put an end to banditry. We're trying to make sure that people leave safely in this country and we can go about our businesses. As you can see, as we all know, there's trickling effects of this banditry and the abductions and the kidnappings. We're having issues of food shortages. We're having problems with food and traders travelling from one part of the country to the other. There seems to be some form of chaos and it's going to have more and more trickling effects. Governors have decided in the southern part of the country that there will not be open grazing again. That's also an issue. Measures are being taken but if all of this does not happen, like he has said, if the AGF does not one way or the other make sure that these prosecutions take place, what then do we do? There's nothing we can do. The only person that can prosecute is the AG. If he has the right to determine who to prosecute and who not to prosecute and when to prosecute and when not to prosecute, it is his responsibility. We can do something but we can protest. We can raise issues, we can make it public and let people know what is going on in the country about the number of prosecutions people have been killing people. My problem with the problem is that there is no political way on the part of the government. There is no political way. If you see the government defending those who have been called bandits, who have been kidnapping people, they are giving excuses for what they are doing, they are trying to bring them back to society by what they call it. They say they are missing or whatever, they are taking them into the society. That is not the way to go. You see, when we are not talking about only if there is some fear on Evan, for him to be in custody now, to be even facing trial, when we have people, bandits who are killing people up and down, I'm not aware that Evan was alleged to have killed anybody. These people are killing people and they are kidnapping without any fear of anything and they are sitting there. So the issue we are having is there is no political way to punish for crime. The sentiment of ethnic sentiment, a lot of sentiments are clubbing our inch, not allowing us to do what we are supposed to do. So the issue is until we have people in government who do things without fear of people, that is why we can get it done. We can like go and do law. We have to go. I wonder how many more people have to die for us to find that political will within our government. I want to say thank you. Thank you for being part of the conversation. We will take a short break now to see what Nigerians have to say about the new anti-kidnapping law in Nigeria. Stay with us. When we come back, I will be giving you my goodbytes. Due to the fact that there has been a high rate of kidnapping and people have been to extort money from other individuals trying to struggle up and actually make themselves a living. So I think getting kidnapping laws will try to reduce it. I think we need it to tell the insecurity issue because most people are turning kidnapping into a huge business right now, coupled with what is happening with the food and the health men. They are going crazy about that. We need to free them. Other parts of the country are serious insecurity issues in the west, in the east, in the south and in the north. So I think we need to have anti-security law to penalise every kidnapper. Sure, sure, but there is existing law now. Kidnapping is a capital offence. There is existing law. Unless you want to... Now that it's very rampant, they can review it and then increase the punishment. And let government look into unemployment. The problem with Nigeria is not laws. It's the willingness and the political will to carry out the law. I can give you assurance that if these laws are passed today, they will still mess it up. It may not be effective. So the most important thing is to have the willingness to implement the law. Just two days ago, the Taliban government in Afghanistan executed Kidnappas. But what do you see in Nigeria? We'll give them amnesty. Integrate them to the national security forces. Is that how to go? So I'm giving assurance that even if these laws are passed today, it may not be effective. If we don't have the political willingness, sincerity, the temerity to forge ahead and make sure that it's implemented. Let's hope, rather, that our governments will find that political will and do what's right for us as Nigerians. I'm Mary Anna Cohn. Have a good evening.