 Welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show. We're really excited to have our guest on today talking about something that a lot of us in the nonprofit world kind of dream about and that's collaborating with a social enterprise and we're going to really get into how it looks like how it performs and trying to determine if maybe it's a good fit for our nonprofit. So Jessica Saydo, I'm really excited to have you here and let's get into it. I'm Julia Patrick. I am the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jarrett Ransom, the nonprofit nerd will be joining us next week. She's been off doing some work out of state. We have amazing partners that are with us day in and day out as we march towards 900 episodes. Most of these folks have been with us from the very beginning. They include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. Like I said, 900 episodes, lots going on here. Download our new app. It's super cool and it'll allow you to on the go reach our archives and figure out solutions, help you figure out solutions to whatever is cooking. You can also find us on our streaming broadcast platforms, as well as podcast if you like to consume your content that way. Okay, Jessica, just amazing, amazing that you were in Colorado Springs, but you were in Korea, what, 12, 15, 20 hours ago? I've been home one solid day. Amazing. You know, philanthropy in Asia, wow, that's a different topic because it's done so differently. And so that's a conversation for another day. But at this point, Jessica, talk to us about what your consulting practice does and how you engage with the philanthropic community. Yeah, great question. So I'm super thrilled to be here and the work I do is largely with, I would say solopreneurs to small businesses who have a either direct social enterprise model or who are incorporating a social impact component to their business. And so the work we do is to really define what is that impact that they're trying to make, figure out how to grow the impact and the business elements alongside it, right? So we're constantly balancing that purpose and profit component, making sure that we keep the impact piece of its center while allowing the business to be profitable as well. So almost like a sherpa for those of us that think we want to do this, it's the right thing, but we don't necessarily know how to do it. Fascinating, fascinating. I got to believe there are a lot of nonprofits in this world who think and for profits that are like, man, if I'd had that help, because the good idea and the good intent only take you so far, you got to have this stewardship and guidance. Well, let's get into it because this is a really interesting piece of the ecosystem that so many organizations are looking at. And I thought we could maybe back up just a little bit and have you really help us understand what a nonprofit, an NPO, and an NGO, a non-governmental organization looks like in the context of social enterprise? Help us to understand how these things are working. Yeah, this is a really great question and I'll be honest, it can be somewhat unique depending on what the organization is. I mean, I think that's true across the board, right? Every organization was a little bit different. But the way I think about them in the context of social enterprise is usually really rooted in the partnership, right? So each of these NGOs, NPOs, they're out there with a very specific focus, an impact focus, something they're really trying to tackle. And social enterprises tend to come alongside with a similar mission, but a different operating or business model. And so where they merge together and where they have the biggest impact is really in that partnership component. So leveraging that shared mission, leveraging each other's respective expertise, resources, impact data, et cetera. That's where I find that there's the most convergence together. Do you find that folks understand this going in? That's a good question. I mean, you know, because it seems to me that what you just said is pretty, it's like a structural concept being successful. And I'm wondering if people really understand that. I don't know. I mean, I find that we tend to be pretty siloed, right? So a nonprofit NGO, you know, they're sort of operating in their lane as our social enterprises. I, you know, when you think about it, I think they recognize that they're all working toward similar end goals, looking for similar outcomes. But I think the approach that we take puts us in very different silos. And because of that, I think we sometimes lose perspective about how we can or can we even collaborate together? How can we actually leverage one another's, you know, skill bank, et cetera? So I would say most people I don't think are thinking about how we can be working together. We tend to just be in our own respective lanes. I mean, is that similar to what you're experiencing? You know, I think so. And it kind of leads me into my next question. And that is why is a social enterprise different? You know, I think the interesting thing about philanthropy in America is that we have at the core for right or for wrong, we have a very entrepreneurial business style sense. Like, oh, you know, American business is going to solve everything, right? And we use the word social enterprise. It seems like, oh, well, business is going to step in. Oh, enterprises, you know, good. And so we tend to take a lot of these structures and thoughts that are in the for-profit world and try and apply them to the nonprofit world. And sometimes that's just catastrophic. And yet we can't get the two to next. I mean, I've seen that in board work where you will have very successful entrepreneurs or our business leaders, and they're like, hello, it's easy. Just do this. And it's like, wait a minute, in the nonprofit sector, it doesn't work that way. And so I'm kind of curious, like, why is a social enterprise different and how do we kind of understand that? So it's interesting because social enterprise has actually been around for a really long time, but they're really becoming popular. And I think it's because in some ways, and it sort of depends, again, on like what you're trying to do. But for me, it feels a little bit like the best of both worlds where you're very proactive and focused on the impact that you're trying to make, whatever that social component could be, environmental sustainability, whatever that component might be. And at the same time, having the agility and the flexibility that comes with being a for-profit business. So you're not hamstrung by some of the rules that govern nonprofits, but you're also not completely profit-focused either. And so you're sort of merging these two pieces together so that you're constantly holding that tension between purpose and profit, impact and profit. Now, that poses its own unique challenge, right? Because from a business perspective, we have been ingrained, like from an American capitalist perspective, like profit, profit, profit, bottom line, make all the money. And we're shifting into an era, I think, where people don't... I don't want to say people don't care about the money. They absolutely do. You'll never hear me say as a person that works with entrepreneurs, don't care about the money, you do need to, right? That's how we differentiate. And at the same time, when we look at the ecosystem that we're in, when we look at Gen Z's millennials, like they are really pushing us toward a completely different narrative where it's not just about the money. It's how do we do good in the world? And so for me, social enterprise is really kind of merging these beautiful pieces from both sectors together to create the change that you really want to see in the world. Well, just think about the B Corp structure. To me, that's absolutely fascinating. And again, big educational component, right? Because we're trying to explain to folks and organizations are trying to determine how they can take on that corporate structure to be successful and to be compliant and all of those things. I got to ask you how social enterprises can ultimately support nonprofits and what does that look like? And I kind of want to start with a frame up towards, if you will, a marketing position. It seems to me like this is such a benevolent act. It can make you really look good. It can be attracting to donors. That's just my personal opinion. Is that really true? Does that happen? Yeah, I think it does. I mean, like I said, people want to know that they're investing their dollars and their time. It's not just money, right? Their time, energy, effort, all of that into something that is actually making a difference. So when I think about the benefit of partnering together, you know, a lot of it is shared resources, right? We have completely different, I don't want to say expertise areas, but we bring different things to the table, right? So where a nonprofit has access to community data, real information, you know, detailed intel about what's happening in a given space, they have that information plus the impact data that a lot of times businesses struggle to get, they struggle to measure. So, you know, there's a natural merge and opportunity for a collaboration there to make sure that we're supporting each other where the nonprofit benefits from the agility that and the innovation and sort of the lack of red tape in some ways that nonprofits have to have to manage. I think that's one area. I think certainly the marketing piece, right, being able to tie business together. I mean, it certainly looks very good for a business to be partnered, right? I mean, all you have to do is look at, you know, Tom's, you know, Warby Parker, Ben and Jerry's like these big companies, right? They have a social impact component. They partnered with nonprofits. So it certainly reflects very well on the social enterprise. But I think it also showcases the benefit of that nonprofit bringing those audiences together, your community, your donors, your partners, your, you know, customer base, all of those things really start to get elevated. I think the other part is, you know, how do we share skills, right? So nonprofits really have a different set of skills or complimentary set of skills to a lot of social enterprises. So, you know, like I said, it feels like a really nice merge because we're bringing different complimentary skills, resources, etc. to the table where we're not having to go it alone. And, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot. We're in an era where it feels like going alone isn't really possible anymore. There's just so many complexities. The world is so deeply interconnected and the problems that we're facing as a global community, whether you're, you know, local to global, right, are big and government can't solve them. Nonprofits can't solve them. Businesses can't solve them. But when we're working as a unit in concert with one another, that to me is where the magic really happens. You know, I love that you describe it that way because I agree. I think there's more opportunity for solution and creative. If you will, to, you know, always quote my sister, Jamie Patrick, flexible thinking. You know, when we get these different agencies together, that really brings, you know, forward a lot of magic. I'm kind of thinking about, you know, the Susan G. Coleman Foundation and Nancy Brinker who took a concept that was really a marketing concept and then sold those alliances to everything from yogurt to garden gloves, basically, right? And really moved forward the concept of a color, you know, that pink that aligned to everything that they were doing. And it seems to me that that's got to be one of the best examples of what we've got that has gone on and that's really a 25 year piece. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, if you look at, you know, Patagonia, for example. Yeah. They've always had this deep commitment to sustainability and they've partnered with organizations. You know, I mentioned Ben and Jerry's earlier, but same concept, right? Really incorporating this deep desire for social change into every, you know, everything that they're doing. And so, you know, it kind of goes both ways, right? Where the social enterprise is trying to make that kind of a big, big change, but they can't do it alone. So they're partnering with organizations and those organizations are partnering right back. And so, you know, whether it's brand, you know, shared branding, whether it's shared messaging, whether it's just shared vision. Those are, you know, the parts that are up for negotiation in terms of how, how do we, how do we work best together? And how do we, I don't want to say infiltrate, but it just kind of feel a little bit like that, right? I mean, Susan G. Cohen is a great example of that. Like they have like infiltrated their color, the push for research, et cetera, into the marketing campaigns of for-profit businesses with really great success. Yeah. You know, it's interesting too. I wonder, and what you just said is really magical because I wonder what type of change that these corporations have had in terms of their ethos, in terms of, you know, coming up with ideas or new solutions. If they turn around and come back, you know, to that organization and say, wow, our engineers just thought of this. Or, you know, it's got to be somewhat of, you know, everybody starts rowing in the same direction. Whether or not you thought it would be. I mean, I'm wondering if you ever see that where it gets, it kind of ignites the thing in that for-profit business that might not have been there. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that's part of the benefit of being part of that social enterprise ecosystem, right? The innovation that comes and is catalyzed through business is constantly at play. So, you know, if we're trying to solve a problem and you're working toward one element and we're working toward other and we're, you know, to me a true collaboration that is really like a win-win is when the social enterprise is unique skills, their products, their business model, some aspect of that is really brought to bear into that conversation. So, if I'm partnering with a non-profit or an NGO and I know that they have access to the people or to the thing that I'm trying to address, but they don't have the innovation or the technology or the skill set to actually implement that solo. Now, all of a sudden, I'm bringing as a social enterprise my best to the table in concert with what you're doing, and now we've made that merger really powerful, right? And we're constantly iterating and innovating in that process. Right. Well, let's talk about this, you know, the process of starting the conversation because it's, in essence, starting a whole new business. Now, and coming up with structures and aligning with people that you might not really know or you have really worked and you're trying to figure it out, how do we even begin? Yeah. Oh, this is such a great question. And, you know, this process goes both ways, right? So, social enterprises can be really doing very similar process to what a non-profit would do, right? So it just sort of depends on who's starting that conversation. But I always say, you know, spend some time really researching. So as a non-profit, for example, if your focus is, you know, on something I'm personally passionate about is like menstrual equity, right? So I'm going to look for organizations that also share that passion. I'm going to start to research, you know, what are some of the social enterprises out there that are either directly doing work in that space from innovation, products, service, etc. Or even working with solopreneurs who are very small micro businesses that have a passion component around this, right? So we do the research, we dig in and really start to see like who else is out there in the ecosystem that's doing the thing that we're also equally interested in. And then from there, really start to lay out like what would be the value, almost like the value proposition of this collaboration, right? How would we make it a win-win? From there, I always say, how do we show whoever we're talking to, whichever direction, right? So if the non-profit is reaching out to the social enterprise, how do we show them that their product or their service or their business model is a good fit? Like where's the complementary component that is necessary? And that sort of moves us into this next piece, which is, you know, let's propose what that collaboration might look like. Outline, where is the mutual benefit? What's the win-win for both of us, right? I know that you care about this topic. You're trying to do this. You're bringing these products and services to the table. But I have access, direct access to the community, the data, the information you need in order to make those things more successful. So what is that win-win? And then the last part, well, I guess it's really two parts is really thinking about how can we create that open dialogue? How can we be in communication, keeping those lines of communication open and following up, right? Because this is not just a one-time conversation. It's not like a, hey, send an email and just hope and pray it works, right? Like there's a follow-up strategy just like in anything, right? We're doing that with our donors, not with our clients base or prospective clients. The same applies here with the collaboration. Like how do we keep track of who we've reached out to? Where are we in the course of that conversation? Just because you don't get a response on the first go doesn't mean there's no interest. It could just be there's something else happening. So follow-up, follow-up, follow-up, I think is key. So really starting from research all the way to really laying out what is the value prop for making this kind of a connection and then having the conversations that allow you to actually build those relationships and make it happen. So let me ask you, is part and parcel to that? Are you advising us, and again, either direction, to really just focus in on one organization? Or does this ever work with a bunch of organizations? Now, going back to Susan G. Coleman, oh my gosh, literally across the board over the years, they started with one and then it moved out. And before they knew it, people were asking them, how do we get on this bandwagon? So what do you advise? Because that seems to me to be a completely different trajectory, although it can be phenomenally successful, but it's a different type of business. And it's a really great question because it's just like in anything, if you're trying to scale up. At the end of the day, what we're really caring about and focusing on is the impact. So if our deep desire is to make the biggest impact that we can, then intellectually we're like, oh, okay, I need more people. But I think sometimes less is more. A really rich partnership can really amplify the impact that you're trying to make. So I definitely think start small and really make sure that there's real structure, real clarity, real meet to the partnership before you start bringing in additional partners in that process. Because you don't want to water it down and if you don't as an organization have the bandwidth, it becomes very difficult to actually follow through and create that really good win-win. So I say start small when you've got your legs underneath you, when you see what's working, when you kind of time trial that out, then if the opportunity presents itself, maybe you begin those conversations. But I don't think to have the kind of impact that you're really looking to have. I don't think you have to have just that big, massive model. It could be a much smaller scale, but a really rich partnership where you're working very much in sync with one another and it just flourishes. I've got to ask before we let you go. And again, I warned you about this morning. I could talk to you all day long. But again, since you've been up since two in the morning, you got to end your day soon. I do. I'll give you that grace. I've got to ask this question. Listening to you, I'm just fascinated by the structure. And when I think about structure, who would be best to put this under their unit? So it sounds to me like this is probably part of a development teams management. I mean, where are we going to see the structure of this lie within an organization? I'm talking about nonprofits, you know, space. Yeah, this is a really good question. So I'll, I'll tackle it a little bit opposite. So from the social enterprise perspective or from a business's perspective. A lot of times who owns that process sort of depends on what the nature of the collaboration is. Right. So, you know, if it's, you know, if you're on the nonprofit side and you're thinking about, you know, wanting to do it, if it's, if it's more on the financial side, maybe it's part of your donor and development type work. If it's more of like an operational expertise partnership, maybe it falls under ops, you know, if it's more of like a people side. Right. So you can see like, it really depends on the nature of the, of the collaboration and, you know, what the goals are. And let's be honest, I think some of it too also depends on who's the champion of the collaboration. Right. So you could have like your development coordinator, your development person could really be passionate about what this collaboration might look like, but it's not necessarily about the financials. Right. That's okay. Right. You, you really need a key champion, someone who's really owning that. So I think there's a lot of fluidity there. But it comes back to, you know, open dialogue and really being forthright in those communications to make sure like, okay, we're all operating on the same page. Wow. I have loved this conversation. Because you know, at the heart, and I guess maybe it's because I'm an entrepreneur at the heart of it, I believe that this is a path forward for so many. And you know, so I mean, I just am like, I wish when I saw that you were coming in, I was like, man, this is such a big topic that we don't have. Yeah. And sometimes we have it, but we don't have any understanding of how it works, where it goes, how it gets started. So this has been a fabulous, fabulous conversation. Jessica Seido, Jessica Seido Consulting. Check out Jessica on her website, jessica seido.com. And again, for those of you who might have joined us in the green room chatter, Jessica was in Korea yesterday is back in the States. I'm in Colorado today and joining us. So I'm super impressed by that. I love this conversation. And honestly, you know, if you are a nonprofit, you know, people who are watching and you're thinking, man, I really like this idea. I just want to encourage you to just reach out to other businesses that are sharing some element, it just starts with a reach out and keep being persistent. It's worth the effort because like at the end of the day, it really comes down to the impact and the outcomes we're trying to create and we can't, we really cannot go it alone. No, we can't. Well, words of wisdom and in a beautiful way to end our conversation. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom will be back with us as not also known as the nonprofit nerd next week. Again, we have amazing support from our presenting sponsors. And they include Blumerine American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising Academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. And amazing conversation today. You've really got some things rolling around in my head. And I bet I'm going to be reaching out to you because I'm just fascinated by this. I really, really am. And, and as we were chatting, this is a future for so many organizations for profit and nonprofit. So really, really interesting. Thank you, Jessica. Thank you. Hey, everybody, we end every episode with this message. And it's really an important one that goes like this. Stay well. So you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Jessica, thank you.