 You might be thinking that service design is about doing user research, ideating, creating prototypes and then maybe implementing service improvements. But that's actually just a small part of this. In this episode, you're going to learn what the real work of service design is all about. So here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, this is Ben Reason and this is the service design show episode 108. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to the service design show. Here on this show, I want to empower you with the most effective skills and strategies that help you build services that win the hearts of people and business. And the guest on this episode is nobody less than Ben Reason. I'm really excited to have Ben on the show as he's one of the founding fathers for me of service design. He founded one of the leading service design agencies, LiveWork, and he has tons of experience of actually working with clients on challenging service design projects. So in this episode, we're going to talk about why some service design projects succeed while others fail miserably. And as you'll learn, it has little to do with how good you actually are at designing a new service. So we're going to take a peek in Ben's brain and learn about how to create the right environment and conditions where service design can actually have a good chance of making an impact. Make sure you stick around for that. If you're new to this channel, welcome. And I'd love to have you to subscribe as we bring a new video that helps to level up your service design skills at least once a week. So now it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Ben Reason. Welcome to the show, Ben. Hi, Mo. Good to see you after 108 episodes. It's been fun to be here. Nice to finally be here. It's going to be a really fun episode. That's for sure. Ben, for the people who don't know who you are, which I guess not a lot of people will be who are listening to the service design show, could you give a brief background of who Ben Reason is? Yeah, hi. I'm Ben Reason and I'm one of the founders of LiveWork. I'm actually the last founder still working at LiveWork and I live in London. Still standing. Yeah, last man standing. Very good. Ben, I haven't prepared you for this, but we have a 60-second rapid fire question round. Okay. So just respond as quickly as you can. Are you ready? Okay. What's always in your fridge? Milk. Which book are you reading? I'm reading a book called Braiding Sweetgrass about scientific and indigenous knowledge. It's an ecological book. Indigenous knowledge was an interesting episode in episode 99. Which superpower would you like to have? I'd like to be able to turn myself inside out. I've prepared for this one. That's one my kids ask me. And that answer is to gross them out. What did you want to become when you were a kid? A fireman and then an artist. Still doable. And the final question, which will be a really interesting one in your case, what's the first time you learned about service design? Well, we did early on in LiveWork, we did Google service design and we came across, by Lin's show stack. So I think that would be the first thing we came across. So the agency was already there, right? And then? Well, we were planning to start and we were wondering what kind of design company would be. So we decided to create the company before we knew exactly what we would be doing. It was more about working together. And we did sit down for a weekend and we said, well, we design services. So maybe it's service design. And then we started saying, who else does that? And not very many people did and definitely no other agencies. So we, yeah, we were, as far as we know, the first firm to say we're our service design company. But obviously not the first people to talk about service design. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I recognize a similar story on this end. We're going to talk about, obviously, service design and the evolution of service design. You've got quite some experience to say the least. So I think we'll be able to get some really interesting insights from you. So Ben, let me start with a question. Like, what is the thing that's on your mind these days? What is, I wouldn't say, maybe keeps you awake at night? What is the challenge that you're sort of trying to solve at this moment? Okay. So I think it's twofold. So on one level, and these are both for live work now. So on one level, we're trying to solve the challenge of how do you bring service design into organizations that hire us? How do you really get them to not just employ you on a project to do some research or to come up with some redesigns about how do you get them to really engage with the practice in a way that is sustaining for them and has a kind of deeper, probably even cultural impact. And the second thing is just sustainability and the future of the life on the planet. And what is our role with that crisis? So those two things, and they're trying to bring those things together sometimes. How might we help? Does design have a role with that challenge? Can you help organizations change? Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I'm sort of surprised with the question like how to bring design and service design into organization. Is that still a challenge? And why do you feel that's still a challenge? Okay. Very much so. I think, obviously, from our perspective, we've seen the interest and adoption and use of service design grow over quite some years. But in our experience, well, LiveWork is still often doing the first design service design projects with a client. We're often introducing it to an organization. And even when we've been, you know, we've introduced it or they've been practicing or they have a team, it's still a baby compared to other ways of working that they have. So it very much feels like you're still on that journey. Yeah. I can imagine that where it's still, even though you're doing this for 15 years, it's still a lot of pioneering, evangelizing, spreading, spreading the passion. Why are you still doing this? Like what is at stake? Why don't you say just let's okay. If they don't get it, it's not for them. Why do you feel that this is really important? We do do that. I mean, I think more and more we're kind of confident to say, you know, if they like it, they like it. Let's go for it. If they don't, you know, it's going to be too painful for us. So we're not really, I don't think we are evangelizing so much as trying to help the people who kind of are excited. So you can imagine our clients are often people in an organization who think this is important, but then they have a whole lot of either uninitiated or unexperienced people around them. And it's super exciting when it works. You know, we've just finished some work with a social enterprise business that provides dental services for young people who are in like people in care and or disabled children. And we just help, you know, we just ran a couple of sessions with them looking at how they could make it easier for these kids. And then they use this when COVID came along because they needed to quickly change to more online. So, you know, when those things come off and everyone thinks, ah, great, this way of working, it's helpful. It's still very satisfying. Okay. What do you feel is at stake? Like, why is it important to bring more design, more service design into the organizations around us? Right. So that's a really good question. I think at some level, what's at stake is kind of, this is too big a word to say. It's humane. I think service design makes things more humane. That's always been the argument. I was going to say humanity and humanity is not at stake, but the kind of humane everyday life maybe. So I think the argument for service design has often been, you know, our services are a pain in the ass, right? And as customers or users. And that doesn't need to be the case. It actually would be better if they weren't paying for, for both sides, it would be better for business or government or whoever. And more and more, I think we're seeing the same on the inside. Like a lot of places aren't that great to work. People complain about things like, you know, siloed ways of working or, you know, lack of collaboration. So I think we can, that's the, that's the kind of best opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. That's the, that's the opportunity. And then I think there's a bigger, potentially a bigger thing, which is less, less evidence of, but there is in this, design also has an ability to help people tackle scary challenges through the, you know, through that kind of comfort in, in uncertainty and through experimentation and make tests, learn kind of practices, which most organizations are poor at. So I think when you've got these big challenges in the world, or just companies trying to work out, well, how they are relevant or, so I think design is useful for that as well. I think that's important. I think one of the questions a lot of people will have is, in your experience, what, what are some of the things that are holding us as a field industry and maybe also the companies around us back from adopting this approach mindset attitude in basically a faster way? What are some of the big roadblocks? Sorry, for us as service designers. Yeah. Well, to, to spreading the adoptance of service design, the argument for it is like quite clear, like making the world around us more humane, quite compelling. Why isn't everybody adopting it? Right. I think they're kind of a small and a big answer. So the big one is it's kind of fighting against an established industrial way. So there are established ways of working which are, which we're fighting against. So there's kind of like legacy tech, but it's not tech, it's, it's kind of organizational ways. And then the small ways, I think it takes sort of, you have to experience it in order to kind of get it. So there's just a timeframe thing going on, you know, you must have seen this. People don't understand what you're talking about. They might even be kind of antagonistic towards the approach because they're not, they don't understand it. And then you go through a project and they're like, oh, yeah, that was good. And it didn't threaten me. And actually it was helpful. So sometimes I think that is, you know, it's just change takes time, especially if you have to actually experience something new and then as part of the adoption. I've heard a lot of people say it like it's, it's a really challenging paradox. Once people, once you get people through that first project, they are in for a very long time, but getting them in that first project, that's like the, the, the sometimes the hardest part. Yeah. It has to do with confidence. It has to do with perceived risk. It has to do with breaking through established ways of working, right? Those are all the challenges that you have to solve upfront before you can actually get people to, to adopt this. Yeah. I think you're right. I'm sure that in, in your career, you've seen a lot of examples where you manage to successfully get people excited about this and get the most value out of this approach. And you've also probably seen a lot of examples where people in the end still weren't able to reap the fruits, get the ROI of service design. Is there a story on an example that comes to your mind when you think about adopting service design in organizations that work really well? Yeah. So we, we worked a few years ago with a big, a big manufacturer who was looking at a service, maintenance service for their equipment. And it was, it's just a nice story from a service design point of view, because they were used to using more traditional strategy consultants to do these kind of projects. And somehow we managed to get in, we were talking to their industrial design team who were really interested in expanding into service design. And it went through the normal, I was now sometimes with the team talk about, you know, it's like a roller coaster, you kind of goes the project that goes slowly up the hill and you're kind of like and it's like, and everyone's, everyone's really anxious, especially people on the client side who haven't seen this before. So and we, and that project, we had some very classic kind of, you know, business analytically minded folk who were really quite nervous. And and then like the roller coaster, you kind of get to the top and you see the way down, you're like, Oh, that looks, that looks exciting. They start to get excited. And then it kind of, if you're lucky, it really then takes off and then it's arrived and the momentum keeps you around the whole, the whole track. And that happened very much with this project, you know, we started off very small. And then when we started to bring back some insight from, from their customers and you and started to translate that into what it could mean, what it could look like. And they could see that we're actually offering them a genuine way to be different and to meet customer needs. Then, you know, and this was this was one of those perfect projects where then the roller coaster bit was more and more departments started to get pulled in and given briefs that kind of came off the core service design. So let's dissect this one a little bit further because there is a lot of black box and mystery involved. I think for people like what were some defining moments in that roller coaster ride that you felt in hindsight, made sure that you were able to take the next step because I think this is where most people sort of they understand the theory, they know what to do, they have learned that to bring in insights to get people excited. And still, in a lot of cases, it they fail to do so. So if you look in hindsight on this project, are there any, yeah, like I said, tipping points? Okay, I think the project was well in in a good place to start with because it was it was a goal that came from the chief executive of the firm. So people were like, we do need to deliver on this. I've actually done a project that was very, very similar in challenge, but where we didn't have that kind of senior sponsorship and it took much, much, much longer to get it. So it has to do with mandate in this. So in this case, mandate was, you know, that was one of the one of the kind of success factors, definitely. You know, this was core to strategy. And I think, I think another massive success factor, which, you know, was that we took all of these, this core team of folk from the business into the fieldwork, you know, they were hearing it from customers, they weren't just hearing it from us. So that was that was quite critical. And any, yeah, any learning around that as how you actually manage to do that because we, I think the people in this field know that taking your stakeholders along involving them, co-creating, doing, getting them to do the research is a way to get more buy-in. Still, often, like we run up to the challenge like, but what will I know? What will I learn through this research? Why should I invest my time in this? I already got 20 things to do on my on my list. Any tips or advice you can give around how do you actually get those people outside of their office? How do you, well, sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. I mean, I think what was it in this case? Well, what was it in this case? Well, so one of the one of the key people was their sales director. And he was just keen. So, you know, and then he he probably started telling other people that it was really useful. I think that that was that was the case there. Yeah, I mean, he might even have been the one who said, I want to come, you know, and then it was the challenge was actually then to make sure he didn't mess it up by, you know, leading questions and bad interview techniques and things like that. So that was probably that was probably key. You know, it's that it's a bit like I was saying before, you know, you you find the one person who's excited, you kind of work with them and you help that that they'll be your gateway into it. It feels like finding the internal advocate, the sponsor. And of course, that helps. On the other hand, it also feels like we're so dependent on good fortune or luck or having people who have seen the light, you know, it's sometimes frustrating that you can't actually maybe that's maybe the maybe it is the approach like maybe in the end, it is. So this is, I think this is important, actually. I think one thing we've learned over time, and then we've actually shifted focus to so I, I'd say, initially, we were service designers, we wanted to do projects, and then you were frustrated like, why don't you understand this is good, you know, makes sense to you. It's, you know, well, it makes sense to us, it should surely the logic computes for you. And then I think when we realize that actually, the challenge is to bring it into the organization, that's the work, you know, if we just were to do, we could do, we could do a project all on our own and kind of, you know, create some beautiful artifacts. But that's, that's not changing anything, right. So recognizing that the organization is the, the thing that you are actually designing, you know, you are designing the way they go about their business. Yeah, even if you even if you think you're designing, you know, interactions and interfaces, you're actually designing how they go about their business. Yeah, so your job is to is to engage them. And you know, you're the people, particularly in that organization are they are the service. So they, you know, they need to be with the program. That's the work, I think. Yeah, I did just an anecdote. So I remember talking to a colleague from idea when we started out and we were doing some work in the public sector, you know, it was very much with front line staff. And she was just like, what, you're actually working with people, you know, all those designers can be very human sensitive. It was just like, yeah, but designing what they do. That's, yeah, that's scary. I've said it often here on the show already, I feel that for service design, the actual design material that we're working with is the organization. So it and then you'd have to dissect what is an organization, its processes, its systems, its people, its relationships. But that's actually the thing that we're designing. It's not the service is the thing it's the outcome. It's it's sort of the consequence of the creating the right environment, right conditions, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the challenges for everyone. And for design, if, like I said earlier, if we're kind of inheriting industrial ways, see like we come across service organizations that have, I came across a bank that has a manufacturing department, they might and they manufacture interest rates. And I don't I still don't really understand how they do that. But that's how they think about it. And then design also has that legacy, you know, design. Well, I think our live work are kind of heritage is in industrial design. And you're having to translate that, those approaches and those kind of core principles, which is still valid, but your design object is something that's temporary. And, you know, it only exists at the moment of delivery and use. So you have to, yeah, you have it, you're going from like doing that design that would tool a factory. So it's kind of linear to a thing where you're designing a performance in that way. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Then the question is, how do you design something that is like a human system? You can't design it like specify it. And accurately, you, you have to just kind of, you know, start to intervene in it. It's more like the systems approach where you look for points of intervention and you look to influence rather than specify, I think. So how do you, what have you seen in conversations with clients? Because we sort of, we understand that this is our actual work. This isn't most likely the thing that clients come up with in a brief. Right. How do you transition in that, yeah, discrepancy? So we're now talking to clients about, I guess, the service design as a project. There's a particular service you might want to influence, improve on or create. But then there's also service design capability. So we're looking at what are the things around that design that needs to be true in the organization for kind of things to be effective. So you know, we are expanding out of what you might traditionally think was our scope to look at, well, okay, how are they governing things? Or how are they measuring things? Or how are they, you know, training people? So, or what is their, what is their kind of cultural approach? So I think we're starting to talk to clients about this stuff will be more successful if these other things are also true. And we can help you evaluate and change those as well. So it has to do with maturity of clients, their understanding that that they need to set the right conditions for this to actually have a some kind of return on investment. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we're saying we can help you with that, we can become unconsciously look at that rather than, I guess, like, you know, we were talking with the case study. Are these conditions good for us or not? You know, it's like, okay, well, we can actually work with those conditions. And if you've got somebody with enough influence. So we're now, you know, getting hired to help people kind of on the journey to using design or customer centristy or however they want to talk about it. Yeah, let's let's explore some more stories from your from your experience. And this one may be a story where you you sort of failed or had didn't manage to get the right condition set up front, where you thought it would be a good project. But in the end, it didn't work out because something anything that comes to your mind. But like, I mean, it might be worth just contrasting that that one maintenance service with with the other one, right? Let's go. Yeah. So, so on that one, it was interesting, we worked with the marketing director who knew us well and was a big, a big fan. And we did what I described earlier, I think it was, you know, we did our research, we conceived of a service that we felt would be, you know, more desirable to their customers and answer all of the issues and needs that we'd identified. And then they were an American firm and they and you know, they ran, she ran out of money and scope, you know, we've done the marketing bit, but then it needed to go to it and it needed to go to the sales organization. And, you know, then it just and they had things like, you know, we could, we could, you were asking how to get engaged, we couldn't get their sales team engaged because being American, they basically make most of their money on commission. So any time that they're not selling their potentially losing income as individuals. So that's just barrier upon barrier, you know, and then we hit an IT organization that had a backlog forever. So there was our work was not a priority from for that other department. So it's just, you know, and then our client, she just had to spend the next year talking to people, talking through the work that we've done and just trying to move. And it did move, it did get there. But by that time, they'd, you know, we were kind of long gone. So I find that those two quite useful because they're the sort of subjects in a way the service was very similar. Do you feel that we can see this upfront? Can we, can we know, like, sometimes you think all the check, all the boxes are checked, and then you get to a certain point where things, yeah. Yeah, I think you can have a good, you can have a good evaluation. But I you say that and I just, I'm just thinking about a project we're doing now where I almost said no to it because of that kind of evaluation at the beginning, it looked horrible, it looked like, you know, they were, they had no leadership, it looked like they were a real mess. And, you know, we kind of took it carefully. And it's, it's proving to be a really exciting journey. No, no idea it might go really well, or it might, you know, might suddenly some political thing might come and derail us. But so I think, I think you can, you know, we're actually just developing a, you know, I was talking about those things that need to be true, we're just developing a tool to assess that, you know, so we can be more conscious of what we're stepping into and the client can use it. It's like, you know, lots of people have done this before, sort of maturity assessment. And is that a tool that you're going to use upfront while scoping a project or a brief? Yeah, probably, or even, you know, just as a first step for the, the client might commission it to understand what they said. So I'm trying to think of people who might be listening who run a team of one or two or three service designers. They like, they're already happy when a client comes up with a brief and shows any interest in service design. Maybe they're, do you feel that they are also in the position to sort of ask for these other conditions or should you just take on any service design project and advocate from within to lead through proof and evidence? Yeah, I think, well, the approach we're taking, which I would recommend to anyone, please, if you're talking about small internal team would be you need to do a mix of projects. You need to kind of do that real work that gives people the experience and shows them some value and hopefully delivers results. And you need to also think of yourself as this little team, but you need a wider team of people who are service design savvy. So they might not be designed trained, but they're people who maybe have worked on the projects and are confident enough to take part in projects or understand they're well enough to buy them. So you have, so I would do some kind of training or engagement like that. And the third thing would be to start to identify these wider things that those conditions and have conversations about them. So because otherwise you're just a subject to the, you're kind of blown by the wind, but if you can actually say, well, look, the way we do measurement doesn't include any customer. So, you know, that's an impediment to us being able to show the value of our work. Yeah. So basically three things. You actually do the craft, the work of a service design project. Next to that, you do some training slash spreading the word. And the third one, slip my mind. There's a building and building those capabilities outside of course. Exactly. Yeah. And I think just like you mentioned, just having a conversation around it, creating awareness that things like measuring things like incentives, hiring, that those things matter and that they can influence the success and the impact that you'll have through your service design project. Just having that conversation already is a very big step for most services projects. One way of going about it, I had a chat with a service designer, financial services firm in London the other day, and he'd built them a prioritization model and process. So he'd kind of seen the needs that the business had and resolved it for them and incorporated a customer view into that. So I think understanding some of the challenges that colleagues have and resolving them is also a really good way to do kind of two things in one, you know, step outside of your core, that's the kind of the core practice, because you can turn design to kind of be helpful in anywhere where there are people using something, you know, it's, so I guess if you're internal, you can say, well, how can I help these people in the way that might actually help me as well? What is your take on clients and briefs where they are asking you to do a project and they use that project as a way to actually learn to do service design, as a way to build capability? I've been in many of those projects and I'm not sure how I feel about them looking now. What's your take on that? You should ask some of the team because they sometimes get quite frustrated with those projects because they feel like they're doing two jobs in one time frame, if you know what I mean. So we've, which we've done in the past, I'd say that this is something that has been a kind of a client request since for a long time. So I think it's evidence of a need that we need to listen to, and then you need to work, and then you need to say, okay, well, if that is the case, then this is how it needs to happen. So quite a long time ago, we developed a project approach that was, that was more like a coach project. So we would, it was based around four workshops, so we would run workshops, but the, the client team would do a lot of the work. And it was partly so that we could do some work where the budget was low. And it was really interesting because the work, the results were maybe less ambitious or less kind of creative, but they were more achievable. So it was a really interesting learning process. So they would come up with things that they, in response to, to their interactions with customers, and sometimes that those interactions would really challenge some of their preconceptions that would be really valuable. But then they would come up with, I guess more immediately achievable change. So I'm all for it. I think, you know, we've got, we've got clients who, where we've taken that approach, and then they've become quite self-sufficient. And that's great. Yeah. So that's also one of the questions. How likely, how can, how much can we expect of a client to actually learn the mindset of service design through one run project and expect them to, to be self-sufficient after that? I think that's a really big pitfall in our, in our field. Like, sure, you can learn this in three months, we'll guide you through one project and then you can be out on your own. From my experience, that's often a guaranteed path, to pathway to disappointment. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, it takes longer than that. And, you know, if you're a, if you're a trained designer and you've spent X number of years on your masters and things like that, and someone says, oh, I can do this in three months, it doesn't sound cool, does it? Yeah. So I think you have to differentiate between, you know, somebody who is a kind of career service design practitioner, and then people who are able to adopt some of the mindset and some of the activities. And, and I, I guess any, you know, they're making steps in, in the right direction and they have other, other skills and other responsibilities. So I'm, I'm kind of easy with it. I think, I think it's been more, you know, we've had, we've had some real successes with it and some, you know, where the project has been a one-off and then it's, it's kind of, they've reverted to type. Probably more of, maybe more of the latter. So I think that, that, yeah, three months on its own is, is not going to do it. Projecting into the future, like the one, two, three years ahead, if we look into the, the Glass Bowl, getting service design to merge more with, let's say, traditional business is, it seems the way it's heading to. What, what will be the changes that you foresee in the service design field that will need to happen or that will happen to actually make this happen? If that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I, I think the field will become more diverse in terms of the backgrounds of the people working in it. You know, I kind of feel like service design emerged from the design school world, but actually it benefits. So live works become more diverse in the backgrounds. We've got some people who are amazing service designers, but they come from, you know, they don't, they never did the master's degree. So I think that's a real trend. I, I have a kind of, I'm curious as to this, this is more of a pump, but I was talking to someone about software for design. So if, if you look at other fields, there will be management tools. So, you know, if you're in industrial design, though, or in architecture, you know, there are these tools that translate design into tooling or design into engineering. And we don't, we still don't, we're still working on very rudimentary tools. And if you think about the whole, the blueprint as a way of understanding the different channels and the different interaction points, and if you're trying to, you're trying to kind of orchestrate all of those different things together. At the moment, it's quite a static document, but if I can imagine it linking through, we did some work with a marketing, digital marketing team, and they were using, you know, software to manage all of these different assets and things like that. So I think that that's kind of interesting. Managing, well, maybe managing complexity. Like, I feel that services are, they're objects that are alive and that evolve and change continuously. And again, also to what you said, capturing them in a journey map or a servers blueprint. And working from that sort of, it's, it's the best we can do at this moment, but it ignores a lot of their reality in which things just happen. Like, it's, it's a stage and you have to improvise and interact rather than follow a predefined script. Like, still the journey map and the service blueprint are, if you, if you're really honest, they fit very much into the manufacturing and the industrial mindset where you create a design and then sort of try to implement it rather than an example that I use often a theater play or improv, improv theater where it happens on stage. And the thing that you create are actually the conditions around it. Yeah. I guess I'd be thinking, you know, like you say, if you're blueprinting something and then thinking you deliver it. Whereas if the blueprint is more like the management tool. So we're doing some work where you were using the blueprints or we're kind of creating an architecture of the services, like what are the key journeys? And then you start saying, how are those different journeys performing? What are the outcomes for customers and for the business of each journey? And that's becoming more something that is allowing senior people to sort of understand the service. And then if, if I jump and sort of, have you heard this someone at a service line conference said, we're all users of SAP. So every, every service has a certain, has qualities that are derived from the way SAP works. So what if, you know, this is the big, this is like just what if, what if enterprise software was more like service design? You know, what if the way that you run the company was based on, you know, was around the customer in the, in the way that you actually use software. It should be. That would change things, right? And then we'd be spending hours and hours just implementing software that would be probably less attractive to a lot of designers. I think so. If you look back on, on this story and the stories that you've shared, what do you feel is the red thread throughout these stories? Okay. So one thing I've really, there's been really great recently. So we, my colleague, Marzia at LiveWork, finished her PhD a couple of years ago. And one of the things she did in the PhD was just kind of consume all the service design literature and the way that different service design teams were presenting themselves. And she distilled five kind of principles or five key qualities of service design. So they, there was a human centric experimental collaborative sort of structured as in structured around experience and reframing and envisioning to these kind of qualities. So that's the thread. You know, those things are the thread. They, they kind of come up. So I think the stories I told, they had a lot of the kind of human sense of a lot of the placing things around understanding that the experience and needs of people, but those five things come up in different kind of levels of mix on everything we do. Do you feel that there is a question that we didn't address, we should have addressed? That's a good question. So we took, I think we talked a lot about the, you know, this, this organization, you know, that I think the whole field is realizing more what you said about the organization being the kind of design object for a once of a better term. Yeah. I mean, I said at the beginning that my other, the other thing, the other challenge is this is around, around sustainability and around the, I guess the relevance of design with it with a challenge like that. So I don't have any answers there, but I think important for designers to kind of look at that and think what, what, what do you do when there's something coming along, which needs to change the status quo quite significantly and what is, so I wrote an article where I was actually taking those five qualities that I just talked about, I would say what would they need to be like in order for us to not be part of the world that is creating more pollution, more waste, more carbon emissions. And I probably don't have time to go into it now, but maybe the one, the one thing I could say, say now is that, that whole, the human sense of part then becomes a problem because we're just, we're designing for ourselves and for our own needs and, and not understanding that we are part of something bigger that has, you know, needs. So that, I think that's the key thing I would say is, although that's our, I would think for most service designers that is the kind of the want, the overarching principle, it's also the Achilles heel in terms of, you know, how do you, how do you step outside of just caring about the other people and caring about the people and their ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah. As long as we don't realize that being human-centered actually means making sure we take good care of the planet. Yeah. That, that, that, that is part of something that is human-centered. I think. Exactly. So it comes to challenge, you know, the kind of what we think of as what we think humans are and are, you know, epistemology, as my dad would say, the professor. If people have a question about what we discussed, I can of course leave a comment. Any other way people can reach out to you with a question or remark or a comment? Yeah. Well, I, I'm happy to, you know, I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn and I'm happy I generally connect with people. So Twitter and LinkedIn. What's the, if you are, is Twitter or LinkedIn the better channel for you? Well, so LinkedIn, so that's easy because I've been recent. Be worried then because many people will, will be starting to send messages. I think we're sort of wrapping up this episode then. It was nice to finally have you on on the services hand show as, as luckily not the last man still standing in service design, but the almost the founding photo, the one of the founders of service design. Thanks for sharing what's on your mind. I'm sure we'll keep an eye on what's going to actually happen about the things we discuss. So thanks again for making the time, Ben. Thanks for having me. So what's your biggest takeaway from this episode with Ben? Leave a comment down below and let's continue the conversation over there. If you know somebody who might be interested in what we've just discussed, grab the link and share it with them. That way you'll help to grow the service design show family. And that helps me to invite more inspiring guests like Ben here on the show for you. In this next video, we're going to continue to learn about the skills and strategies you need to build services that win the hearts of people and business. So click over here and I'll see you over there.