 From my point of view, I'm done with the introduction already, so therefore I hand over to Mentos with his part. Yes, I would like to introduce you to Jeff. We met some time ago at a coaching agile teams training with Lisa Atkins in 2010. This was 12 years ago, and it could have been that we've met earlier at a scrum gathering, but we don't both don't remember all people with grey hair. So, and I like what Jeff is doing with writing the books and what he's presenting there, the stance of the scrum master, the ideas all around this, and I'm really glad that you're here, Jeff. Thanks. Thank you. And what we might not remember is that there seem to be quite a bit of alcohol in those earlier. I think I was inspired to invite Jeff, when Jeff put out a post on LinkedIn, stating, I will give back my CST batch that I earned in 2005. And from there, it all started. So, Jeff, would you like to tell us a bit about your pathway to scrum mastery. Sure. So, I've got a lot of love for the scrum alliance like Mentos said I've been a guide level representative of the scrum alliance since 2005 but I was a scrum master back in 2001. So, I've been associated with that organizing for organization for a long time I've helped shape some of the education programs, and I've helped bring a coaching focus into the fold, and seeing it grow through lots of different changes in leadership. And it's done, I think a fantastic job despite some of the criticism that any organization gets these days, I think it's done a fantastic job over the last 20 years or so. And the fact that I'm giving back my CST doesn't mean that I think I need less of it. I will explain why, and maybe it'll make sense, I'm not sure, but I just briefly explained to you what I'm doing instead. So, I've spent the last year or so offering an alternative to companies who come to me just checking you're seeing a screen rather than a black screen. Yes, we are seeing the black screen. We're seeing a black screen. Let's try swapping displays. Yes. Perfect. Yes. So the companies that come to me and ask for some help with their scrum masters, their teams, their leadership, their organization, it's quite common for someone to come to me and ask for a training course. And, you know, I enjoy my training courses. I think they're pretty good. I think a lot of people get some value from them, a lot of value from them. But where I have seen most success is where that training has been coupled with some other kind of support. And so I try to make something a lot more explicit in terms of support for people in their particular roles. And it's, it's something that it's one of those things that where you look back 10 years ago and you think, why didn't I do this 10 years ago. And it kind of makes a lot of sense. But I'm calling it pathways because they, they are focused around getting people on helping them on their journey to use that that cliche. If you can remember back to when you started off as a scrum master or a proton or an agile coach or whatever role that you've got. It's there's a lot of new. There's a lot of validation of the common sense that you've been doing for years anyway but there's also a lot of new. And no matter how good the training courses, you can only take away a certain proportion of that new knowledge. And the rest will hopefully, you know, if you're lucky, sit in the back of your mind ready to be called upon later on but more often than not, it kind of gets lost when you hit the real challenges. So I've tried to kind of formalize a lot of the things that I've been doing with the companies that I've been working with the teams that I've been working with. The tools and support structures that I've created over the years into something that I think is a lot more comprehensive and so far the results are pretty good. One of the, one of the people that I'm working with came up with this this Agile manifesto sort of homage, I suppose you'd call it, where in a similar kind of vein if anyone has read any of my books you'll know that I focus on good and great I don't, I don't focus too much on anti patterns. I think that's lazy to say what people are doing badly. I like good, and I like great. And so training courses are good things individual reflection, good things, going on a journey on your own to be fun. All right, having some certainty over what you're doing and having some some some confidence in the in one way of doing it really really useful. But equally, I think, having some continuity of your learning pathway, working with the same people that were on your training course working with the same trainer that was on your training course when you're getting into the actual coaching around the real life scenarios, exploring things as a group, having someone guide you as you're navigating that that world of uncertainty in that new area. Coupling the theory with some immersive practice has generally been significantly significantly more successful. And get past that as a pathway. So it starts off with a workshop, which is based on my my my ideas my my history my stories my experiences of what makes scrummasters really successful. And I generally do them in person I'm not a big fan of the online training environment but other people do run them online. And as well as the online. So the impersonal the online actual workshop. It's coupled with five, half day, once a month, getting together, working through real live problems, filling in the gaps, refreshing the bits from the workshop but perhaps got lost because we were focusing on other things that were more pressing at the time. All of the modules that we go through in the workshops people have video access to them forever. They have access to a smartphone at which gives them daily prompts if they want it or reminders when they want them in a time of their choosing. And then six months later once they've got six months more of real experience real chance to put that theory into practice and reflect on that practice together and as a group. We come back and we build on that knowledge, same people, the same group, the same trainer with some some another layer another level of scrum mastery in this context. So it combines a number of different things. It combines in person workshop as a group and real life coaching based on real scenarios books, smartphone apps videos and a community forum where they can. Talk in real time in a safe private space. The idea being that it combines all the different ways of taking in information and making sense of information so that more learning sticks, more skills stick more confidence sticks. And, like I said, it's a startup. All right, this is this is a new offering something that is very different to what companies are used to asking for and what people are used to putting on their CDs. But it's already had interest from all around the world. And, and again, people saying that, yeah, it is more of a commitment. It is harder to get a company to actually say yeah we'll do something for six months rather than two days. But the results are significantly better. I've got a number of people who are working with me offering this this kind of thing, who believe in this, who believe that actually helping people get better at their job is not just a one off transactional relationship but more of a commitment on behalf of the person, guiding those people as well as the person receiving the information. So that's a little bit of why what I am doing. I did say I would tell you why I've chosen not to stop the share, not to keep my CST. So one of the people that I've got working for me, they're working for me they're not working for me they're working for themselves but they're working with me. And it is a scrum.org trainer. And one of the questions he asked me was, can I, could I do this, as well as my PSM. And why not, why wouldn't you, what, why would I stop you from doing that. And a client called me and said, I want some CSM classes, I want some advanced scrum master classes. I said, Well, I could do that. But I'm not going to. I'm still a CST right now because of the way things run they went to the end of the year, right, but I haven't run a CSM class for a long time. So I'm not going to do that, because even though what I'm doing I believe offers higher stretched learning objectives, certainly the CSM possibly even in the ACSN. Because if I offered you my validation, my verification, my badges and the CSM, I wouldn't learn anything about the actual value that my program offers to the world. So I want to test it against all the other products out there. I don't want, I want a clean experiment. I don't want to muddy the waters by saying, Well, yeah, you could have this, or you could have this and the CSM. So I'm kind of making things more difficult for myself, because I could be offering more than I am. But I really want to learn more about my product as quickly as possible. So that's that's my spiel. Thank you very much for these insights, Jeff. Now we come to a point where we say you want to get some more information and also include mentors in the in an interview. And of course, all of you listeners as well or participants. If you have any questions to Jeff or mentors, and then write them in the chat, and then we can work us through all the questions you also have on the topics we were now. If there's any question right now to Jeff, we could start also with this. If you have any questions you can now speak up because we do not have any questions in the chat. So one question, Jeff, thanks for introducing to this from us three pathways, but what's the total invest time wise. So I heard half days after so what's all together. Yeah, so that the bear, the bare minimum, if you like, is a two day workshop, followed by five half day workshops, followed by a two day workshop. The bare minimum is six and a half days. All right, spread over six months. Personally, when I do this I offer one to one coaching with the people on my, my cohorts as well. And sometimes we'll have more than that will have workshops after the six month the second six month workshop so it's it's tailorable. The base level that all of the license guides that that I've trained at myself will be offering is at least a two day workshop some of them are offering three, some of them are offering more. Some of them are offering full day workshops but at least a half day a month. Thank you. Thank you for the question. Maybe have a follow up question regarding that and how how if you speaking if you speak in terms of learning objectives, you know, you know these lists of learning objectives you have to cover for the different certifications. So mapping. Is it so much different from the advanced and the CSP verines. I mean, couldn't you kind of offer like a customized version that includes all these learning objectives so you could maybe get both certification or something like that. Yeah, so I mean that's a good question. And it's something that I think there will be with before long. That will be an offering on the market and yes, I could be doing that myself. So a little bit of them slightly boring background is that I like to think, I don't think anyone can really prove this either way. I think that I was one of the people that helped create the advanced CSM course curriculum, because Paul Goddard and I were teaching advanced CSM. Well, we didn't call it advanced CSM advanced Scrum Master Training back then, before they were when there was only CSM that's the only thing there was. We were asked by the Scrum Alliance to provide our course content as input into that and you know that's kind of where the ACSM came from. So, there's there's an element of what we taught that because we thought it was good. We didn't have we weren't constrained by the learning objectives at the time, because they weren't. At the time, the, the CSM and the ACSM learning objectives have changed slightly. And, and the, the program that they've got at the moment is, is still very flexible in what it allows people to teach. But I was surprised personally, having helped create both curriculums that they weren't more similar. But to me was there was stuff that I wanted to teach that I wasn't teaching in my ACSM classes. Now that's not to say it's necessarily better. But it freed me up. Look at that. But like I said, there's no reason why somebody who was let's say a CST let's say mentors just as a hypothetical argument. And he says, Well, I would like to be able to to do this and you know if if I looked at the learning objectives that you have in the curriculum that you have, I could actually run a three day ACSM, and I could give them all of your badges and that Scrum Alliance badge and that's, I believe that will happen before long. I'm not going to do that like I said at the moment because for me, I don't learn enough about my product just yet. And as a product owner, the learning about the market appetite and the feedback for, for what's wanted and what's needed and what companies are willing to pay for and invest in their people then is more important to me than getting those, those extra people, if that makes sense. Yes, my question is, how specific is your path. Is it strictly focused on Scrum Masters or the reason is, I think, to know your job. How does the perspective of a pro product owner or developer or as a dev op is also very helpful. Yeah. In the way I found for the company I worked for us to have a three day basic training. Starting from design thinking through the all the things minimal by a product as a lean startup to classical requirements engineering up to dev op so for all the people the same basics. So that they then I can't give them a certification because I'm not a CST, but I gave him a basic knowledge about every view of it. And then they decide what the role is they worked in and have a year later, have a year later, then they get a specific CS CSM training or CSPO training and so on. And I think the benefit of that is that if you already have worked for half a year in this role, you have totally other questions to a TST about what you want to know, because if you send someone who's absolutely newbie in a course course he will leave the course and say now I'm certified scrum master but what what what did you know about this. Yeah, at least nothing so is your your past very focused on scrum master or how do you handle these bright view for all these roles. Yeah, perfect, perfect, perfect. So there are actually a couple of things that I should have said I was a little bit too brief. So people who are attending this scrum mastery pathway, they need to know what scrum is first of all. Okay, so one of my frustrations might be too strong a word. But let's say frustrations is that when I used to teach the CSM class it over the years it got more and more the learning objectives got more and more basic. It basically was an introduction to scrum with a little bit about being a scrum master. That's not sounds like a criticism but it's not the one criticism that I would have is that about mentors is probably better with dates than me. But I'm going to say around about 2008. There was a big conversation within the scrum alliance about whether the CSM should be rebranded. Whether it should be become a certified scrum introductions course. Yeah, we also had this at the scrum gathering in Amsterdam and I think it was 2010 or 2011 long discussion. And I can I can understand the difficulties with doing that because you had maybe 200,000 people who already had that certification who they signed up for one thing and it's going to be turned into something else. But for good or bad the best decision they could at the time and that was to not do that. And so the CSM was the gateway for many organizations and so as you say you get people turning up to these classes you aren't who are never going to be a scrum master. Everybody knows they're not going to be a scrum master people who are paying them to go on the course. No that's not going to happen. And yet that you're trying to teach them the same things. And so there is a prerequisite knowledge of scrum which doesn't. It's not that difficult to get a prerequisite knowledge of scrum you can have a very quick workshop in that. But yeah, the idea here is that this is purely focused on that scrum master role and getting really really good at it developing the skills you need to be really effective in that role. Not what is scrum. The second part to that is that yeah I wouldn't, I wouldn't be looking for, I would be telling product owners, not to come to this. I have a separate product mastery pathway. Okay, based on product mastery, same structure, same flow, same things, you know the video courses the workshops all that kind of stuff that focus on. So how do you be a really really effective product. Okay, again, they would need to know the basic scrum before they turn up to that. And similarly, I have one for the team mastery so you, so you're part of an agile team, what does it mean to be really really really good agile team member. What is a really great agile team look like how does it work, what's required from you, how can you get that so role specific and again for coaches. There are different types of pathways for the different roles. So they can really focus on their role. I hope that helps. Yep, thank you. Then classes, having the hand. Thanks Jeff, I haven't read your book yet. I will. I just downloaded it. Okay, I was impressed by the subtitle because many years ago. I read about the servant leadership and even more years ago I read Jim Collins good to great so I wonder how much will the book be inspired by the other two. Very much so they're the two of them I am more more green leaf and Collins to be fair my inspirations but yeah green leaf massive inspiration for me I thoroughly recommend anybody on this in court if you haven't. Yeah, it's a lot of reliefs work, the servant is leader, it's from a long time ago, but it's still in, in many ways, even more relevant now than it was when it was written. Even, yes it's focused on society as a whole rather than the world of business but the same principles, and depending that around enabling other people around the toxicity of the power pyramid and all these kinds of things that it's, it's really based in I truly believe the scrum master role was created with with that in mind. It saddened me that the most recent scrum guide took the term servant leader out. Because of that. So, if you, I'd like to think that if you do read that book you will recognize a number of things that probably have been borrowed too heavily from green leaf maybe I don't know but you would probably see some some in there. And similarly, you know when I write about product owners. We can only see the world to our own lens, and you know we we see what we expect to see and all these kinds of things so I am biased, I admit that we all are, but when I the product owners that I've seen really really successful aren't just the ones that are really good at creating a vision or user stories or personas or road maps or anything. They can engage with people, you know they actually they actually know that the skills of the team in a complex environment are essential. And they need to engage them they need to coach them they need to give them some slack that they also need to be firm at times as well so that the emotional intelligence and almost an enabling product owner is essential for success as well. So it's a long winded answer, but the other part of the Jim Collins thing goes back to my, almost in my view of the agile manifesto is that the agile manifesto doesn't focus really on bad stuff. I know a lot of people looked at it and thought documentation we hate documentation we hate all that, but it wasn't it was this is all good. So let's leverage the good. And, you know, especially when it came to the team mastery book that I wrote I tried to make a really really strong point that don't let me talking about what great looks like make you feel intimidated to not try. So as well as my agile work I do a lot of coaching work and quite a lot of people that I coach struggle with perfectionism. Some people when when they see something that they can't do perfectly would just rather not try than do something 95%. And so a lot of the teams that I work with they don't worry about great because trust me, the amount of teams and organizations that I've seen. If you can be a good team with a good scrum master, then you're well ahead of the game anyway. All right. So it's for what is good take that brilliant bank it and then maybe think about can I reach for that could I work towards that. Lovely, looking forward to read the book. Thanks class and this imperfection might be consoled by the old Leonard Cohen's anthem. There is a crack in everything that is where the light gets in. Nice, very good, very good. Thanks. Yeah. Yes. I'm, I'm a little bit wondering about such path is so I know I don't say a similar path, but I know path is from companies who introduced that develop and journey for scrum masters at conferences. And they are somehow similar. Let's say they have training workshops and so on some theories and practice and so on. But my pain is it's really a pain. It's a role. It's a function in a company. Yeah, and scrum master and product owner. Totally new roles. Yeah. But you don't have the background, you don't have the background from university or wherever. So, as a software engineer software developer, you go to university and study. I do that for years. And as scrum master, I, or product owner I have serious doubts to do a mastery, let's say on 10 workshop days and some reflection and practice. Yeah. If I, if I understood the question correctly, is there concern that even the fact that I'm offering something more comprehensive than what's there at the moment is still too little to class as mastery. Yeah. And I can accept that. You know, I can, I can make all kind of excuses the fact, well, I'm just making a play on the words of my book, but no, I genuinely it's not, you know, I put a nail my colors to the master here and saying, this is about looking for mastery. So what, where does that definition of mastery come from. So it comes from the 60s, the 1960s, and it was around teaching. And I've got, I've got kids that have gone through the school system and I've got another one that's just about to start. And trying to speak to my kids over the years about what I do when I was a scrum master was quite difficult. But when I basically, what do you do daddy? No, you're a fireman. No, you're not a fire. No, I'm not a doctor. What do you do? Well, I try and help people work out and make their jobs better. That's what I do. And so, okay, what kind of jobs, what any kind of jobs really doesn't really matter. And so, the way that we do that is through coaching. So, yes, I am a teacher. But before I was a teacher, I was a coach, and I had to learn how to teach. I had to learn how to give presentations and to learn how to stand at the front I had to learn how to create PowerPoints and to learn how to draw flip charts and all that kind of stuff that goes along with running a training But at heart, I'm still a coach. So when I'm stood in the classroom, there are certain things that I might be able to teach people as facts, rules, laws, not many, but I can teach them. And I actually quite often carry a physical hat around with me. And I'll say when I'm giving you something that is fact, I will put this hat on. This is the fact hat. But when the when the hat is not on the best that you can take from the words that are coming out of my mouth are Jeff's opinion. And I try not to give you my opinion before you formed your own. Because I know that it's very hard to shift an opinion once it's in your head. And so I try and coach as much as I can in the classroom without neglecting my responsibilities to give people rules facts and laws when they're awesome. And this is effectively what what Bloom was talking about when he was talking about teaching for mastery said it's not about teaching people the answer. It's not even necessarily teaching them a process for finding the answer. It's teaching them a process to ask the right questions, so that when they're in unfamiliar circumstances, they can apply tools techniques and a questioning curious approach to solve that problem. And a lot of my approach to teaching has been empirical this is why my my books are full of stories they're real story they've been changed slightly but they're still real stories. And it's not it's never saying, this is what you should do. It's talking through the options that you because you've always got options. And it's about making choices within complete information all the time. And if you don't have that confidence to be able to analyze the context if you're just looking for a rule to apply. In some ways, either going to be beholden to an expert or supposed expert, or paralyzed into inaction because you're worried about getting it wrong. So I fully fully embrace your, your view of general Jeff, people aren't going to be masters at the end of that. No, they won't, but they will be much, they will be on the path to mastery, because they will have some knowledge. And they will be able to apply that knowledge in real time with support and guidance and reflection. And after six months of reflecting on real scenarios where there was no right answer. They will have the thought process of how to analyze and make decisions best for themselves. That's, that's the biggest aim for this pathway for me. How does that sound. That was a genuine question back to you Sylvia. Yes. Maybe the question was, are there universities walking in a similar path. Well, I didn't observe that. Yes, but my at university you should learn to be critically reflective and so on. And I did not observe that, but maybe there are some studies, I don't know. I'm going to bring Mentos in on this in a second because Mentos has experience with universities. I've been asked to do talks at universities. But first, I'll tell you a brief story that it's one of those things that I'll always remember because it's one of those stories that made me laugh. It's a guy called Craig Laman who you might be familiar with from the world of less and things like that. And, and he was talking about medicine. It's just a long time ago so I might get the details wrong but the gist of it should be said, you're saying many, many years ago people knew for a fact that when you were ill, the cure was leeches. They knew that it was a fact. When you were really ill, you needed lots of leeches, even though science evolved antibiotics and all those types of things began to emerge and there were different ways of treating illnesses. Still, many, many people knew that leeches was the answer. And no matter how much evidence was put in front of them, they still clung to their view. Laman said it took for a whole generation of medical practitioners to die out before the new truth was fully accepted. And the reason I tell you that is because what I have seen, although I haven't seen what's being taught in universities. What I have seen is a shift in demographics in the boardroom. I have seen more and more younger leaders getting into positions of influence and power, who have seen things work differently, and no different facts to their previous leaders. And it's been slow, and it's been painful, but these people know that you can't carry on doing what we used to do, and expect the same results, because conditions are different. The result of universities teaching it or whether they're learning it through what we call in England the University of Life. I don't know. Possibly a combination, but here's where I want to bring mentors in because I'd be interested in his views. So, Sylvia, we have been in contact with some universities for several years. So for example, for 12 years now with the University of Karlsruhe. The University of Neuholm, and some, you know, teaching at university is really in the hand of the professors in Germany. And it's really if the professor loves something it will happen, and if he doesn't, it will not happen. So there are some professors that really understood agile. And, and I also had them in training, some of the professors of University of Karlsruhe, they attended a training I gave in house at the university. So, and some didn't understand it at all. So I regularly see worksheets where the exercise or explanations, things like a backlog must be fully understood and complete and whatever you write about classical requirements. Yes, I know. There's one teacher in at University of Neuholm, and he's really into. I came there and I had a one day session with his students, and then he looked at me at the end and said, Wow, you set a new standard for teaching at university. And I want to do this too. And so he switched into what we are doing with a training from the back of the room and all these things. He started changing every of course it's a step by step he couldn't just the next day, but he started switching everything and he invited other people also from the agile community to visit him and students and and to, and he's now here. So it just depends. And we had from another university. We offered at University of, I don't remember Nuremberg or Alan, we offered this also to them, and we got a nice answer. Not so nice answer from from somebody who's responsible there and he, she wrote to us and say, The student's time is so valuable. You cannot spend it on teaching this unimportant things about scrum manager. We must teach them really important things about databases and whatever. So, yeah, it's still a long way to go. Yeah, I use crumb. Yeah, yeah, nice. But I would also like to comment on just a few points that Jeff just made. And first thing is, I dug up a presentation from 2012. So 10 years ago. And it, it looks like this. I'm sharing my screen. It looks like this. It's a pass. And it's about scrum master. What, what skills does he need. So you start being a scrum teacher and you become a facilitator and, and some more things it's a crazy so there are some more things hidden in there. And near the top of the mountain there's something like so leader. So, and this, there was something like a pass to scrum mastery. We call the scrum master education program about 10 years ago, which we created out of something, a feeling, when we were giving the two day CSM class. I was teaching today CSM classes for several years with Andy sleep. And, and every time people left our course I was I felt so sorry for them, because we were offering those two days of training. And then we told them the rest of your life you learn on your own. And so what we did first was extending from two to three days. This is also, and I'm still doing the three day courses in order to cover the, the things that you talked about earlier Jeff, where you said the CSM turned into basic scrum training. The first three days is for me is the first day I talk about basic scrum so that everybody is at this on the same level. And then the next two days, we are really talking about CSM learning object nowadays CSM learning object around. What's about teaching coaching conflict navigation, and all these things, mentoring, and so on, really doing. And, and these three days allows me to do the things that I. I like also beyond the learning objectives. This image what I showed you the past, it, it was 15 days. So we have Jeff's model with six and a half. We have, we tried 15 days so it was about six months. Two and a half days in training then four weeks with your team as a scrum master two and a half days and training and so on and so on. And we really asked people to come in being a scrum master so at least being in the role of a scrum master so that they really could try out these things and come back with real questions. So one day we always had the first half day was always about reflecting what happened the last four weeks in your learning thing. We stopped after in 2017 we stopped doing this. So we did it about six years around 10 courses, so 10 groups of six people. It was too hard to sell. I must frankly admit and I'm really looking forward to your experiences around this Jeff, whether or not six and a half days are easier to sell. Because what happened very often was people were very interested, they got their company for example I remember one lady from Bosch. She, she signed up. And then we had to tell her, sorry, we only have two people right now in the at the intended time to start. So it's another three months later. And then at three months later we had four people. And then we told them, it's another three months later sorry for people is not a learning groups, six people as a learning group. And then we shifted. And, and in the end, there were about 10 trainers and coaches involved. And most of them. Klaus was also involved most of them of course we earned a little little money very little money. Most of them did it because they like me. They didn't do it for a living they it was just a hobby for them. So, yeah, so. And then scramble lines approached us around 2016, and they told us, we want to buy it as an advanced and professional. So what, and then at that point of time we said, yeah, we co created it with 10 trainers and coaches from different companies and we can't sell it. It's impossible. And the training materials is under open source license, but we cannot sell it and and they, I think, in a way they scramble lines also wanted us to train people to do this. But we also refused this and Andy sleep came up, and maybe Jeff you were involved in this also under sleep came up with the idea and and said scramble lines. We can collaborate. And it will take a year or one and a half years, you can collaborate on learning objectives and trying to get something and very many of the learning objectives that we had in our 15 days. The six months program are now part of the part of the advanced CSM and CSP scrum master certification so somewhere stripped out and thrown away and others came fresh in. Of course, everybody was asked to contribute into we had several scrum gatherings where we discussed these things and this was created and and when scramble lines then said, we have a new offering those. And once certificates and professional, then we stopped doing public trainings, we would be ready if a company comes up and say, we want to have an in house training with these 15 days, we would be ready at any it's on the I would be ready to do it at any time. And I also support strongly support what Jeff Watts earlier said about have a close learning group, the same people having the same learning experience. It's a very strong thing. And have at least one we thought we said it was one head coach and head trainer, who was always there. And the other trainers and coaches were coming in and adding their input and their exercises and then, but they always had one person. So we talked to at any day and night time during this learning experience. So that's just what I wanted to add. Very cool, very cool. Are any other questions. Yes, there is one question that was sent directly to me. The question was sent directly to me and it's. From Gita and she. It's a very large question. I'm not sure how to answer it properly curious to know the differences between the course offering from scrum.org scrum aligns and the scrum mastery pathway. So that again sorry. Curious to know the difference between the course offerings from scrum.org from scrum aligns and the scrum mastery pathway. And so I can't. I can't come on the scrum.org because I don't, I don't know them. Maybe I should go on them. But I do have a license guide who's come through my train the training program who is also a scrum trainer so he would be able to answer that better than me. The scrum alliance ones that there's, there's, there's definite overlap you'd be surprised and I think disappointed if there wasn't. The, so one of the big differences is that in the pathway, you're expected to have a base knowledge of scrum whereas the scrum alliance gives you a base knowledge of scrum. Through that. There's no actual requirement for you to go past the CSM, hence the fact that there are over a million CSMs and only 16,000 I think a CSM. I think this is a commitment to not just get a base level of knowledge, but just to keep going for six months, at least with that group. And so that's kind of a. I'll sort of link that to a couple of questions that are not questions but comments in the chat around. You can't get mastery within six days and is it more of a horizon than a goal I think it is a goal. And again coming back to that point of the definition of mastery being one of the deaf part of the definition of mastery is being able to apply skills in unfamiliar contexts. So, being able to take the idea of stakeholder facilitation and talk about it in one scenario, but talk about it at a high enough level that you would be able to apply that in different situations. Let's talk about keeping engagement and keeping ceremonies fresh about influencing or coaching up, as well as coaching your teammates or coaching other scrum masters being able to take a skill and apply in different contexts that they will be able to call something that they have certainly before the end of those six months. Will they all be able to be dropped into any scrum team in any organization and change things straight away. No, would I probably not. So, what are my expectations my expectations are, they will have a greater understanding of themselves, they will have a greater understanding of people that they work with. They will have a greater understanding of how to apply skills and techniques in different circumstances without relying on a playbook. So that I'm not. Yeah, I think that that's sort of, that's really helpful for me because I don't think I've ever said that before. It's a question difficult, because there is not one offering from scramble lines. The, of course, the scramble lines very strict around the CSM offering, saying at least two days and and so on and so on and so on. And it's more the trainers or coaches offering around the advanced and professional step, because you can really tailor your approach, whatever you can, you can say I'm doing a coaching thing, something that's really is connected to what Jeff is offering. And I'm also doing this. I'm a recognized coach and a recognized trainer best criminal lines. So I'm doing both. I, I'm having three days advanced classes combined with some webinars after so that they can reconnect and and with a select group to so that they can later. And I also offer one on one. So people approach me. And they asked me, I want to become an advanced sort of a scrum master, but I don't want to attend the training. And then we, we set up whatever rhythm so it's every month, a few hours or every second, every third week, a few hours where we come together and we work on situations that are real. So it's a real problem of the scrum master right now and he's saying oh my team is falling apart what can I do. And then we try to work on these things and by working on these things. We also start covering one learning objective after the other. And I, as a, as a trainer coach, I'm looking into a scrum alliance recognize trainer coach, I'm looking into that. Nine months or 12 months, we cover all the learning objectives. It's a real real. Yeah, one on one. And this is really so there is not one. There's not one offering from scum alliance. And this is something Jeff also noted earlier, somebody, a recognized trainer could do what Jeff is offering the pathway. And it might be that this also leads to the advanced level. If, if you make sure that we cover all the learning objectives. It's a really good point actually. And so the kind of part of my early, I wouldn't say it was my positioning but where I found myself positioned, if you like, with somewhere between scrum alliance and scrum.org. And that the one of the main differences between scrum alliance and scrum.org, they're using the same scrum guide, right, is that scrum.org has a very central centralized curriculum and exam questions and things and scrum alliance has learning objectives where people can create their own courses that can be very, very different. So what I've, what I've landed on is kind of a combination of the two. So I have a core curriculum that has some flexibility around certain exercises that can be run in the workshops, but those coaching those navigator sessions between the two workshops. So today I deliberately intended to be pulled and reactive based on what the, the actual cohorts need at the moment in time, which is why the people who are coming through my training the trainer program. Which is not a phrase I like but it's something that people recognize. And why I called them guides is because they're not just trainers so these people they have training experience but they also have coaching experience. So they don't need to know an agenda to be able to help people. They don't need to know the answers to be able to help people. They do know a lot of answers to be able to teach people. They can help people find their own answers as they're going as they're guiding them through. So it's somewhere in between that fixed curriculum and completely free from curriculum somewhere in between the teaching and the coaching. And in my in my blinkered and biased view of the world. It's the best of both worlds. In some of my trainings, when I really see a need there. So for example I gave a training for for Siemens. Just two weeks ago. People are sometimes astonished because somebody, a participant, she said, I have this situation here and I don't know how to. And then I just said, Okay, we put up, we put the agenda to the side. We're going to make a case study around this. And now we, we spend if everybody agrees here, then we spend an hour on looking into this situation so please describe it, and everybody agreed. They were all from the same company. And they, they were really looking into ah, they have a problem in their part so maybe this might also help us. And then we made a case study around this and and they're good learning. And I, as a trainer, want them to have a good learning experience and to make the next step in there. If I skip one or two learning objectives. And I hope nobody from scum aligns will see this. If I skip one or two or more learning objectives, I skip them. Or good luck, because I created a room, a space for better learning for those people. Yeah, what the heck, I'm not following any. So I don't create create any slides I my very first scrum training I was so unsecure. So I needed those 100 slides to to walk through from one slide to the other. Sometimes you can give me any topic, give me a word and I will just create a flip chart or whatever, and, and try to give you a frame for thinking. Yeah. I don't want to bore people with my, with my journey, but you know the advanced advanced to SM class that the tool evolved massively over the years. And since the most recent instance of it involved a loose structure, but actually, even before people signed up. We were in the full knowledge that we would not cover all of the learning objectives in the classroom. And Paul and I, Paul Goddard and I would be quite very, very open about that. And we would still cover the learning objectives but we wouldn't cover them all in the classroom and this is because we thought. Yeah, some learning objectives were more important than others to go into more detail. And also, some learning objectives would be more important for the people in the room. So we would, if you're going to come on one of our ACSM classes there would be pre work to cover off some of the learning objectives. And we would go through the bulk of learning objectives but we couldn't guarantee which ones in the class, and whichever ones we didn't go through in the class we would go through afterwards. And, and that again is, is kind of. I think that's, I think, I think that's just a good classroom focus I think it's putting the student first. That's why we added to the advanced courses and the professional courses we added to the two webinars. And they have to attend another otherwise we as trainers will not say you've done it. So they have to attend to webinars and these webinars allows me to, to check up something or we missed on something important around some leadership. There's a learning objective about this and then I covered this topic in such a webinar 14 days after the training also. It's a long way to trying to deal with and we experimented around ideas around this. This course pre work I've had good and bad experience. The worst experiences with pre work is in with in-house trainings. Very often people just show up. So in the first five minutes what's what is this training about. Yes, and you had compulsory and pre work to do. Otherwise, I would, yeah, I have not been so strict. I've not thrown anybody out of the course and he sleep did this once or twice. He told me, you really threw somebody out of the course and say, you have not prepared properly, you will disturb the learning experience of the other people. Out of the door, and you can be, of course, we are offering same next month, you can be a big next month. Yeah. There was a time when this was a long time ago, but I was, I was proud of the fact that over a period of time, I can't remember what it was, let's say nine months. The average 20% of the people in my CSM classes were refused certification. Either because they were, or I've just got this meeting at lunchtime it's only three hours. Is that fine. There's a very low bar here. You just have to basically turn up. And generally leave me with a positive impression of you as a human being, and, and you can be a CSM. But you've actually got to be here. All right. I can't necessarily tell in these two days whether you understand it and whether you're remembering it but you've at very least got to be here. So, no. So if you have people who are turning up and just want to disrupt other people, then they need to leave. So, it's been a long time, but yeah, I think that that view that all you needed to do was was turn up has not helped in some regard and I know it's, it's a false. It's a false accusation in many cases. But it's it's one that's sort of stuck unfortunately over the years. This is something I talk about in the early minutes of the course. When I really look into the eyes of the participants as good as you can do it remotely or when we're in the room and, and ask them, who's responsible that you're learning something. And nowadays, normally they just, okay, I'm responsible. And then I say, yes, that's the right answer. So you can be sitting in here three days and learn nothing. So it's your, please take notes at the appropriate moment. Engage, and I will make sure you have a proper learning environment so that this is possible. So I see that as role modeling, what you're teaching, right? Yes, so we're treating, we're treating developers, we're treating leaders, we're treating product owners, we're treating people who work as adults. We are assuming that all things being equal, they want the best for themselves. They want to be successful. If they're being disruptive, if they're being dysfunctional, then there's something else going on that's stopping them from being at their best. They have a need that's not being met somehow. So how can I create a learning environment where they can do what is natural for them, which is get as much as they can from it. But this changes a bit. In the CSM class, you get more of this behavior. The advanced and professional, in my experience, everybody who's attending is really, I want to learn this. I want to learn this. And this might be related to, you're really asked to have a year of experience before you become or two years of experience become advanced professional. And so when you really started working as a scrum master and really struggled and you have the experience, the CSM is not enough. Then you're really longing for, I need some support for the next step if you don't get it from a community of practice of scrum master and your company also. No, I absolutely agree. And I don't want people to have to wait for that moment to arrive before thinking, oh, I wonder if there's something else out there that I can get. I want it built in from the start because no matter how good you are, there is so much unpredictability and people are complex, you're going to be working with people. The environment you're in a complex, the world is complex. It's the role itself is deliberately ambiguous and vague. So having to figure things out in real time with just a couple of days worth of training and no extra support going on. It's just really, really hard for people. So yeah, I think we're going to say, I think the a lot of the, you know, a lot of the I think that's why it's what I have found. And this is something I remember coming back and saying to my wife, after running the first one of these formal pathways for a client was that every single person in that room was really focused on their career. There were 15 people who all really wanted to become really, really good at product management. There were no prisoners. There were no tourists. There were no. There were a couple of business analysts I think who probably had much much more on their plate than their job description meant they should have and really wanted to get better and it was such a positive experience. And then I said the advanced classes who kind of feel that all right, this is the next step or I'm doing this because I need to be able to get a CSP so that I can get a CST or whatever. There are lots of other reasons that people have attended advanced classes in my experience rather than just for the personal and professional development. And so yeah, that's that's the one thing I've, well, one of the things that I really, really noticed. What you just told triggered something I remember now. I think it was the second time that we were running the 15 days thing. And in the second course, somebody from a company here from Baden Baden joined us. And then he came into the room and say, I know all these things. I'm just here to assess your training and to tell my organization whether or not it's good or not. And after the first two and a half days. He said, Oh, I'm learning something here. And after the 15 days after half a year, he came to me and said, it was a life changing experience. And this and the same organization told us and this might be true for what you're doing also Jeff, the same organization told us, we were thinking we were developing a single person. But we found out we were not developing a single person we were developing a whole scrum team, a product donor and a product. This all changed to the better we could see it. HR could see how all these things became better. Dieter, you have your hand up for some time now. Yes, when I when I hear all that's this, I think you can be very lucky to have people in your courses who are so focused and so motivated to learn for themselves. I just showed the box from edu scrum just behind me. I tried to do the same in school classes and try to motivate children in this in school to learn in self organized and all this in this way of scrum. But if you ask them, why are you learning this, you will get just another and quite another answer. I'm learning it for the next test in two weeks. Right, I think that's that's key data. I think you get on a really important point there. First of all, why do people know why they're learning and can they attach that to their own personal motivations. I can't speak for German students as in German children. But from my experience of teenagers in general, one of the biggest things they have in the classroom is their appearance. So I don't want to to look like I'm learning. I don't want to look like I'm the teacher's favorite. I don't want to look clever. All right, and equally I don't want to look silly or weak in front of my peers. And I don't think that's really any different to the corporate world. Most people in the classroom have a fear. They have a fear that they're going to look silly that they might have to admit that they should have known this before that if they don't get it now that someone else will. They might be picked upon to present and they don't like present. There's lots of fears in a classroom. It could be the fear is going to be an argument and their natural responses. Well, I think they're going to try and make me look silly. I'm going to be argumentative. I'm going to get whatever the driver is for that behavior is blocking their learning. But all things being equal. If you if you gave everyone a chance of if you ask them the question, if everything else was a non factor. Would you like to have more knowledge and wisdom in your head tomorrow than today. Most people, if not all of them would say yes. It's a question of them finding out what those personal barriers are to them having an effective learning environment and it might be different for children than adults it might be quite similar. But when we're talking about barriers I've actually got a question for you love, which is, if you were to consider going back to whoever it is in your organization that makes decisions around things like training and development and coaching and so on. And to say, do you know what, there's something a little bit different out there. And you told them about this pathway, I'd be really interested in what you think the barriers that they would see to this type of approach being from their perspective. Can I just start speaking. Yes, yes. Sure. One thing I could think of is, for example, the organization that I heard this question and I mentioned this pathway was, they are so used to going on this come out of the hole. It's, it's almost like the machines are all sort of geared and set up and going in that direction. And it's another matter that I'm really not sure if I can say this in a call with 30 people in it, but quality scrum masters and how much I feel for that lack of quality scrum masters and I see the value in what you say about the six month program and bring the real value of being a scrum master into it rather than it just being a certificate. So one barrier for me that comes right off to mind is the ease with which they have set up the scrum.org routine. They've got providers in place already and at multiple levels and it's like multiple gears moving in multiple levels that are already set up in a particular way. So habit and also structures where they've got a preferred supplier list or something like that. Yeah. Thank you. But I think it's also a lack of lack of understanding of the whole thing. So the people who decide, oh, let's do a training for the company. These are the guys who should know this. And they don't. That's the basic where maybe we have to wait for another generation of HR people. I don't know. So they, you know, you need to have that mindset of understanding people who are deciding on these issues. Yeah, I mean, I hope we don't have to wait for another generation, because generally people in HR are younger than me so I'll be dead by then. I mean, what you have said then bring something important to mind I used to put something for for my courses on the website which is if you're trying to convince somebody at work to pay for this. Here's a one pager with the core information what what can you expect me to get from this and what's involved. And almost some questions of frequently asked questions that perhaps give into HR or the people who have got the preferred suppliers list or something. Having that to hand might might be quite useful. So thank you. You already giving me ideas as a product owner for this. So any other constraints or barriers that you can see. I can see and also experience in my firm companies before was that the need of a scrum master was not really seen in the company so the product on was okay I changed all my project leads to product also they are important because they are important for the product but what about the scrum masters. Where do I get them from and why should I put money into them. And then of course when I come then as a new scrum master I was on a CSM course for example and say I do need more advice more training more stuff and now look here this costs you this and then they say like okay but what do I get out of it because you are not developing something and you are not in charge of the product. And that is something that was a barrier in my form of companies where I worked that they do not see the scrum master as that valuable than the other roles. That's a really good point. Yeah. Thank you. Klaus. Yeah it's I go pretty much along the same line that if people who cannot really tell the difference of something which is high quality thoroughly reflected lots of experience practical and theoretical etc etc from whatever might be a low quality you know a discount version of a scrum master. If they can't tell the difference why should they invest in five seven eight 15 days if you can have the same the apparently same thing with days or no days and just the exam in the beginning. And then I wonder could you take a staggered approach I am about to finish a three year curriculum in a therapeutic school and it started off with an agreement just for the first year and after year one. Both sides were free to reassess what we like to continue together. This could be scaled down to something maybe so you start off with with something with a lower threshold but making clear it will have a lower result. But you will better be able to judge on the difference after the first step. Yeah, kind of prototyping approach to the thing itself. Thank you. So just just to understand your offering it's it's a one or nothing it's all or nothing you have to do the whole path. Or can you just do it to step one and then maybe step two. Yeah it's it's a it's a product it's a thing. Yeah, that's that's difficult maybe for people that don't understand this so if you start maybe you can as as it was close close what suggested well make it incremental like to the first one and if they see value. Somehow split this. It would be definitely easier to sell. The seeds first and then the fertilizer and then the water and then your hand is up. More than sharing about the barrier I just wanted to share a tiny little thing that I've started to do recently. This big machine of an organization where there are multiple levels. As an agile coach, I work within my pocket within my engagement to create awareness as to the need for school masters, and also bring to light the pain points, which could have been addressed, we had school masters. This is also I relate to what you said they're certainly about need for school masters why should we invest in them and why do we need them. We're facing similar questions and school master is not a higher role and we need a delivery lead not a school master. So those kind of questions and those kind of realizations and or not realizing. This is not a direct sort of solution for you Jeff and but then what I can do for where I am standing is to start slowly create awareness as an agile coach as to the potential that the school master brings and to also help the owners themselves realize what a valuable partnership they can have with the school master. Yeah, thank you. Me sure you have a question. Oh, just let's have a three step answer to your question. The first step would be. I don't know who did it but it was a brilliant this service naming the role scrum master. Because telling everybody this is a master so okay he's a master of the two days course after any kind of certification so what should come more. My second point about it. We know there are some cargo codes. And those companies and enterprises they are fairly certified with a two day certified scrum master and they love it overruling them and steering the teams and coordinating all the stuff why are any kind of leads on managers. The third part of my answer coming back to the mastery. Those people who decide and you also want to talk to as a product owner. Are they are they on their mastery journey. Quite rare in our world, having having purpose having having motivation, striving every day being better. And this is perhaps also what we can see as scrum masters in in the difference in the percentage of how many scrum masters, we have. And how many advanced and how many professionals do we have. And I think this fatiguing of English. Distribution, this distribution can be also seen in HR in procurement and even on CEO level. I assume, just my opinion. Thanks for listening. Thank you. You also have something to add. Just just a short different perspective different angle. I want to offer. Like, if you get to a larger organization, and they probably are in a process or finished process to create lots of scrum teams. What do they know if they need your pathway to scrum master training for the scrum master. If they need your pathway to a team member your pathway to product owner, especially when you offer all three of them. Why don't we offer pathway to better product teams. Well, not not team member, including the product owner and the scrum master. We give everyone the chance to see how these three roles and work together, how to make a product more successful. Yes, no one did it in the past I guess so you probably tried it when you coached in companies. But so my question is why didn't come a pathway out of that. You still go back to these three different roles and no one knows what to order from you. Maybe quickly and then Jeff. Quickly Peter. This pathway exists. It's called agile coaching, if it's done well. I have just next to me the agile coaching definition agile coaching is an experienced journey with people in a thought provoking and creative journey using coaching approaches with an agile mindset and principles to help individuals teams and organizations to be the best they can be. Yes, yes I do understand but process for the whole team on whatever they are working on this just my quick answer and then no Jeff. Coach mentors is the person who goes there and helps the teams, which is what Jeff from my understanding did in the past to several teams very successful. The point is, do organizations know that they have to invest in coaching or is the pathway to a successful product team, probably a better sales pitch. Especially as Jeff has all these in already created all these courses. Yes, I really like where you're going with that pizza I really do. And whenever I had the chance in the past to run either role specific workshops or holistic workshops for the whole team. I would generally pick the holistic workshop because I would rather people learn together at the same time, the same things, because one thing I learned, as well as I said I had to learn how to be a trainer. I don't don't for one minute think I'm the finished article. I know that I can stand up and say exactly the same words in exactly the same way. And two groups, and two individuals can hear them very differently. But if you've got those people in the same room together, they can have that discussion about their different interpretations. And I'm not going to say everything works out brilliantly. But it's a lot better than having people leave with two different sets of truth. Jeff said this, Jeff said that I was in the same room and he didn't actually say that. So, I do like that. Is it marketable as a product. One of the reasons why role specific courses and pathways and programs have proliferated over holistic ones is that it's much easier to sell a public version of a course where any scrum master from any organization any country in the world can come along. Getting the whole team to attend something together is quite difficult. It's not possible, but it's certainly more logistically challenging. And most people, me included, will generally take the easier approach than the harder one, because there are so many barriers that we have to get past, just getting rid of one more barrier is a lot easier. That's why I think it hasn't taken off. Would I still encourage it or what I would typically do and I'll jump on to what Mentos has kind of hinted at there is what I have seen work in practice with this pathway approach is so at an organization where one group of product owners is going down their product mastery pathway they're learning about being product owners they've got different teams they're working with. We've got scrum master is those those into the workshops between the two sort of actually training elements. That's an opportunity where we will get people together and have group coaching. And part of their homework perhaps will be where they're going through in their communities and they're talking and trying things out in between sessions and they're reflecting on them before they come back to the next coaching session will be to actually do some work with their teams and have conversations and try to different things out. So it would be. It would be rare that if if I engaged with a group of products owners and organization or group of scrum masters and organization for six months that we didn't interact with other members of their teams or the members of their organizations. It's not necessarily selling it as a package product. But it is a conversation I do tend to have just in a slightly different way I think this is answer your question Peter. Yeah so basically you're doing it in a way and yeah thank you very much. Thank you great question. It just it just triggered what one one other idea. It really approaches us. And they say we have a new product where we, we want to start a new product and it needs to be a success so we want to do it with scrum. And then we say, Okay, do you know anything about scrum. No. What I do then. Okay, please. Let's together identify a group of developers, preferably some some people that are volunteers. They want to work on this product. And then let's identify somebody which we will call product owner. And then now let's identify somebody who recall scrum master. And, and then we embark on and then they ask, what do we need. I very often I say, let's have a kickoff we have a two days kickoff and it's a mix of getting the product vision right and the backlog and whatever the definition of done and and all these things in the two days and it's and some scrum training. And we have both so and we embark together on this journey. And then I will be at their side as long as they want me to be at the site or or Stephanie or whoever on Amanda. And this is a common approach that many people I think Jeff has done the same. We will be at their side together in this learning journey. And I will learn about the organization that needs and whatever wrong assumption I had. And they will learn together and they grow in their roles. So I prefer to have all these roles. All these accountability set there so I'd rather not, if it's possible, be the scrum master in this setup so that they can learn how to interact and then fly on their own and just something like the the pathway to for me. It's something like that. And it's very intense for some teams we do this just a few weeks and other teams. We've been doing this recently also during the pandemic I remember one customer where where I was really really involved with the team for one and a half years and then somebody else from our organization took over. Very cool. Peter again. May I just ask a short question on that. So do you have a name, a product name for this mentors for this. Yeah, support you're giving. I would say the name is agile coaching, but I offered what we are selling the company is as a kickoff, two days kickoff, and then as much support as you need from an agile coach to move forward. And this could be eight hours a day it could also be once a week or it could be three hours every day, and whatever on in the first prince more and then less, but yeah. I don't know I can't remember whether or not we put a product name to it maybe something like getting your team started up or whatever. It could be that we created such a flyer a few years ago but I don't remember. Oh, just try to unmute my question goes to Jeff I'm just, as I'm just one of these product nerds here in the group. And then, yeah, totally like your product master a book as well so I was happy to hear that you also plan to offer a product master product mastery pathway as understood correctly. And what you said and what I really like is that you said you want to discover now and test your product or get feedback for the product so as understood correctly firsthand for the scrum mastery pathway, but beside perhaps also for the product mastery pathway I see on the website. So, what's your hypothesis regarding these differentiations of both products so what's your hypothesis perhaps in kind of question of share or multiplication between scrum mastery and product mastery. How do you see the shares in the, let's say, market or how do you assume the, the. Yeah, the interest, interesting or interest from the market. Oh that's an interesting one wasn't actually where I thought you were going to go with that question interestingly enough. I don't have a hypothesis about the proportion of market interest. And it actually doesn't bother me too much what it turns out to be, I don't really think that's that important for me, because I'm equally, I equally enjoy running them both and I equally, I think they're both equally important in their own way. I have noticed over the last, I'll say four years that there's been a higher proportion of inquiries to me, and I would say the group of agile coaches that I generally speak more to that there's been more product owner inquiries and scrum mastery inquiries. So that's because the scrum master market was tapped into first and sort of reach saturation whether it's a combination of the fact that as I think he said, or a couple of people have said, maybe the organizations aren't seeing as much value in a full time scrum master role they're not seeing more value in the product owner role, I don't know. It could be a combination of all of those things. But where I thought you were going with this question around hypotheses was how I'm effectively measuring success. The personal measure of success is taking people who already inquire with me, or come to me and ask for work, because I've got 20 years worth of data on how many people who come to me actually end up that turning into work. Comparing that data to when I say, well, no, I'm not offering what you actually came to me for, I'm offering something different. And how many people see the offering that I'm putting forward, not just as valuable, but valuable enough for them to take a different path. The hypothesis is that it would be less than 50%. I think it's probably going to be around the 25%. But I would be happy with 25%. So, I think over time. One of the things that I said when I started this was, you know, I would love it if Scrum Alliance, Scrum.org, other places, looked at what was happening here and thought, Yeah. Yeah, maybe we do need to do something to encourage a less transactional approach from companies to the offerings that we have through our trainers and coaches. Maybe a more partner collaborative long term approach is something that we should try and encourage. Maybe we should put more emphasis on helping people find their own motivators for following the path to CSP, for example. That would be great. Thank you very much. It was very interesting. Let me add, perhaps, did you get any reaction from Scrum Alliance or Scrum.org on your LinkedIn post or on the thing itself? No, no, I didn't. And it doesn't surprise me, because the Scrum Alliance doesn't have a leader at the moment. The previous leader of the Scrum Alliance. But there is no current leader. So that doesn't surprise me. They got bigger problems to worry about than little old me. But no, nothing from Scrum.org either. Thank you. Dita. Thanks a lot. Yeah, I have a question too. In the early days, we have these project managers or product leaders, and there was one person who organized it all. And now we have Scrum Master and also there, and then we have a product owner. Someone has to know what we have to do. And then we have a Scrum Master jumping around, hanging around half the time. A Scrum Master job can't be a full-time job. What is he doing the whole day? What do you think about that to say, why didn't the Scrum Master also worked as a member of the team? Or why does the Scrum Master not do a second and a third team? What's your view on that? It's quite a big view that I have that has multiple different aspects to it. I'll try and keep it simple. I think any job, if you want it to be done really, really well, you should focus on it. I think, especially a job as ambiguous and as disempowered from an official perspective, they don't have official power. As demanding, as team-facilitated, team-catalyst, organizational change-changing, and other things, having that as just part of your role means that human nature will dictate, I pick the parts of the role, because I can't do it all, but I will pick the parts that I find more enjoyable or at least less stressful. And those are the things that probably need to be focused on more. So that's one part of it. The other side is that I actually have seen Scrum Masters be really, really effective with multiple teams. But without question, those people have got to that point by being focused on one role for one team. They don't start off doing multiple roles or with multiple teams. They get really good at their role. They get really good at the organization. They get really good with the relationships. And then the team becomes more self-managing. We've built up this idea of servant leadership within the organization. People are more capable, they're more comfortable, they're more safe, but they don't need the full-time support and facilitation and coach. And so it's, you know, I've always said your aim as a Scrum Master should be to do yourself out of a job. All right. Before you get to that point, there will be a time when you aren't needed full-time. This is fantastic. What do you do with that? Help more people. So I agree totally. And I say, I was out the same. And I said, no, I want to become professional in one role. So let me be professional Scrum Master and not be the best programmer at the same time. I can't do that. And a colleague of mine said, OK, if you're a good Scrum Master, maybe you can handle two or three teams at the same time. But if you are really good, you can only handle one team. Yeah. I mean, I give credit to Mike James, who was a Scrum certified Scrum trainer as well. I think he still is from the West Coast of the US. He always teases me for writing the book that he wanted to write, because he was the first person that I heard say a good Scrum Master in code with three teams, but a great Scrum Master focuses on one. And that's one of the one of the big light bulb moments for me as a Scrum Master, as a coach, as a writer myself. And they're thinking, yeah, it's what kind of one of those almost paradoxical things. There's a lot of truth in that. I sent a link to the chat, an article a day in the life of a Scrum Master, and it's giving me my answer to this with a picture I usually use in training. And I will not elaborate, you can read it and yeah. There's a German translation of it on the Scrum chapter page. Cool. I just wanted to very short refer to something you said earlier about what's our intention when we, when we are offering a coaching or training, when it's mentors or Jeff is doing something. Our intention, and I try to speak for Jeff, our intention is to make people successful. We want to see people being successful. We want to see people grow. We want to see we have fun when we see people being the best they can be. We just have fun with this. And this is really, and of course, when you look at all of the Scrum trainers that I know, there are some with the same intention and there are some with other intentions. So, when, when the advanced and professional level were announced in 2017 2016 or 17. What some of the first statements where we cannot sell this. I cannot, I cannot go into doing something at once because it's six, it's three weeks to Christmas and three weeks to Christmas means I have six trainings to go to each week back to back. And, and this is something I would never do and because this is not about letting people grow it's just about carving out as much money as you can get and then forget about it. So, let them fail, whatever. It's not my fault. It's not my problem. It's not my, your organization bought the course they paid me and I'm done with it. And this is not something that I endorse if people want to be supported and that's why I also collaborate with others, not only in Amanda. We are 12 people at Amanda, so if a customer approaches us and asks us for help. And then I can say, yeah, sorry, I'm fully booked but my colleague might be able to help. And if this is not possible because all the colleagues are fully booked, then I'm happy to pass on whatever. Normally, I look into, you're coming from Cologne so your company is sitting in Cologne so I find a trainer or coach in Cologne or you're coming from Hamburg, I find a trainer or coach in Hamburg. And, and we just passed it on to somebody else, because we really want to is transforming the world of work of the Scrum Alliance is something that is dear to me. In a way of creating a better environment and where people can succeed have fun at the places where and have a healthy environment when they are at work. These are all and now we have many discussions around sustainability. This is also something I fully support. That's a nice way to the finishing mentors. I was also asking if you want to add something. Well, I'm just amazed that people are still here an hour and 45 minutes later. I mean zoom fatigue is real and with temperatures as they are, I can understand how some of you haven't passed out. So, yeah, I really appreciate your time I really appreciate your feedback. If you have any more feedback if you do have conversations with people and you get some real firsthand feedback about it, or anything that would you think would be useful for me to know I'd welcome welcome that input. And, yeah, reach out and let me know how things are going. Thank you for coming. Thank you for hosting. Yeah, thank you Jeff for joining us here. Thank you with the Germans. Cheers. Yeah. I have a question it's totally off topic. Yes, totally. And it might sound really stupid. I was not I'm still not sure if his name is pronounced Jeff or Jeff or Jeff. Jeff. Jeff. That's a cool way to write the name then. Yes. Okay. One last question. So I really, really like the discussion. Yeah. And I maybe one of the little gems that I'm taking with me is is his definition or his view on, which is not a new one right so but this is your his take on a single one focus scrum master not being like a scrum master multi server. Right if you want to be really focused and really good, you have to be. Try to be one. And then if you're really good and maybe your teams that they can support this then you can work with multiple teams. Yeah, that's always the same thing that I also teach in. And it's complicated sometimes to teach that. Because it sounds contradictory right. It sounds difficult for the context of the companies what one guy all the time. And the new scrum guide is not really clear about that. It's really ambiguous. In the meantime, the scrum guide is no longer so clear. In the earlier versions, that was not the case anymore. But this change to the account abilities is mainly for very small teams. So if you are a startup founder with people that you then say we can also use scrum. And they're not forced to do it as a product owner. Yeah, it makes sense. But yeah, it makes sense. So you don't know, if you just don't have any possibilities, then you have the possibility. Well, if someone takes something, it's better than not at all. So what I normally say in training, it depends a bit on your league, who you want to play. So if we take football as a medium, it's not a question that Bayern Munich or Manchester United has a coach. And that this coach doesn't train in Dortmund at the same time. It's completely clear. So if you play in a circle league, then it can happen that a coach, both the team from the one pre-game as well as from the other pre-game, or that the coach may even play with them. So a coach, so he plays with them. But then the whole distance is missing. So how am I supposed to facilitate it if I'm part of the game? And that's, that's elementary important. I have this picture in the article that I posted there, A Day in the Life of a Scrum Master. I once found this picture in a talk with a regional manager. He also says to me, now my people have understood that. And your contract is running out now. So let's stop. We don't need a Scrum Master anymore. And then I painted this picture and I explained to him, let's see what the task of the Scrum Master is. And then this regional manager, Christian Gister, then looked at the picture, he thought about it for two minutes, quiet in the room, so only he and I were there. I asked him for 30 minutes of time for it. And then he looked at me and said, you want to tell me, the Scrum Master is a leadership power. He said, yes, exactly. The Scrum Master is a leadership power. Then he said, I want all of my leadership powers to be able to do these things. And here, just where he says, there is no Scrum Master anymore, he says, five minutes later, after this picture, he says, and here it's 25,000 euros. I want you to train these people from my organization. Yes, it makes sense what he said. Everyone should be able to do this. That would be great for a team. So, for example, why should only the Scrum Master do facilitation? He has it on his leadership powers. He has seen leadership powers in front of his eyes. As a coach mentor, contactor of collaboration, conflict navigation, moderation, teacher, change agent, I want to act on all leadership powers. But you're right, of course. It's a much nicer organization. And just this morning, my colleague Armin started working with Ute at a very cool organization. I can't say the name now, but a team came up to us and said, we're pretty good, actually. But we want to, we need a little more. And they're totally open. They are on a really good level, what their product and also in their collaboration. But the questions are just, hey, people, if you have an idea, then let's go together on a learning path. And Armin said this morning, after the first session, he flashed. There are so many possibilities. And he doesn't know if this assignment is going to take 14 days, because then they've already reached the next level, or if it's going to take three months or so. And that's what we need to do. And we don't make big contracts. We're just so long on their side until the team says, now Armin is good. Come back in half a year. So that's okay. And I mean, no one can stop that to work with Armin every day. So intense. Before I go further into the assignment, the end is for the assignment.