 Good morning everyone. Thank you Peter and thank you Bobby and the whole team at New America for partnering with us at the Muslim Public Affairs Council to host today's book event when Islam is not a religion inside America's fight for religious freedom in the midst of every of the everyday crises that we're dealing with both real and manufactured Religious freedom really isn't an issue that receives the critical attention that it deserves and at MPAC We firmly defend the right to free belief and expression for people of all faiths or no faith And we hold that compulsion of religion is antithetical to our values Through our policy work here in Washington DC We support policies that keep affairs of the state separate from the influence of religious ideologies Religious freedom is a core American value protected by the Constitution and Ensures that people of all faiths are allowed to practice their faith free from intimidation and discrimination Upholding religious freedom in turn upholds our democratic values of pluralism But over the past few years we've seen a rise in hate crimes against communities because of their faith Americans of all religious backgrounds should be concerned that an attack on one community is an attack on us all and So here are some of the disturbing facts that we are dealing with as American Muslims today the FBI statistics on total hate crimes in the United States in 2016 showed a near 200% increase in hate crime incidents toward Muslims since September 2001 In fact, we've now surpassed those numbers since the aftermath of September 11 the number of anti-Muslim hate groups nearly tripled from 2015 to 2016 and Despite the increase in reported hate crimes the number of federal and state hate crime prosecutions remains low Moving away from hate crimes and toward policies since 2010 216 anti-sharia bills were introduced introduced in 43 state Legislatures and we know that in many of those states such as Mississippi for example Which alone introduced 20 of those bills Muslims account for only a fraction of a percent of the population So the absurdity of these bills is that they attempt to find a policy redress to a problem that doesn't exist And on the federal level there is as we know a Muslim ban candidate Trump campaigned on banning Muslims from entering the country and in June of last year the Supreme Court of the United States upheld that ruling in favor of the Muslim ban The Supreme Court today and other courts throughout the country have been dealing with a number of religious freedom cases and Today's event will discuss how faith in America is being secularized and politicized and the repercussions that this has on debates About religious freedom and pluralism This morning I am extremely pleased to introduce one of our panelists and the author of the book when Islam is not a religion Esma Isma is the senior scholar at the Freedom Forum Institute in Washington DC and a visiting scholar at Brigham Young University She also holds non-residential fellowships at UCLA and Georgetown University She previously served as counsel at the Beckett Fund and was director of strategy for the Center of Islam Or the Center for Islam and religious freedom She is an expert advisor on religious liberty to the organization for security and cooperation in Europe and a Term member for the Council on Foreign Relations. I am very pleased to please To announce and to welcome Esma to the stage. Thank you Thank you Thank you new America Foundation and Muslim Public Affairs Council for hosting this event and this exciting panel of experts on the challenges facing Islam and Religious freedom today As Heather mentioned my new book came out just last week It bears the same name as today's event when Islam is not a religion inside America's fight for religious freedom And yes, the title is intentionally provocative and probably also confusing But of course so is the claim and that claim that has been perpetuated is is that Islam is not a religion The argument goes something like this Islam is not a religion. It is a dangerous dangerous political ideology Therefore Muslims don't have rights under the First Amendment This is of course absurd There are almost two billion Muslims across the globe encompassing tremendous diversity Including seven million right here in America Yet that doesn't stop some very prominent people in America from arguing that the First Amendment does not apply to all of these people And it's not just a claim that we see in the Twitterverse or in social media Although we definitely see it there and we see a lot of it there We see it among lawmakers. We see it implemented into law and we see it being argued in court And so my book looks at these legal implications It looks at the attack on the First Amendment and it explains how this attack on Muslims affects all Americans Because the selective application of the law will always come back to bite us because once you see power to the government to Determine which religions it considers acceptable and worthy of protection You've essentially ceded it power to do that for any other religion that in the future it might consider it unacceptable So I've been in this fight for religious freedom for a decade and the principle that runs throughout my work Is that everyone has the right to be wrong Indeed one of the hallmarks of religious liberty is that it protects people of all fates even if their beliefs seem unfounded or flawed or Implausible or downright silly. It's not the religious freedom requires Relativism or indifference to truth instead it's based on this idea that we're all sort of in the search for truth and meaning in our Lives and we should have the freedom to engage in that in that journey That journey is of course different for everyone both among religious communities and among members of the same community We may think that mother's belief is wrong, but again the premise behind religious freedom is that people have that right to be wrong It is a concept inherently rooted in human dignity because what matters isn't whether your beliefs are acceptable to the majority You don't have to earn your rights or prove yourself worthy of them simply by virtue of being a human You have access to human rights including the fundamental human right to religious liberty And yet in religious freedom discourse today the principle of human dignity is sorely lacking No one has a right to be wrong as same as they can only be right and you the beholder gets to decide what is right In my own work, I have rejected the selective application of rights regardless of the particular religious group I'm advocating for and regardless of how popular or unpopular their religious beliefs and practices might be But I have not seen a similar willingness on the part of many Americans to extend these protections to Muslims This is true not just of ordinary Americans But also of Americans in positions of power And some of the same Americans were the most vocal in advocating for robust vision for religious freedom Fall silent when it comes to Muslims rights or explicitly advocate against them Indeed in question for a lot of Americans is whether Muslims are protected by religious liberty In other words they're questioning whether Muslims can access rights under the first amendment Under laws such as the religious land use and institutionalized persons act and the religious freedom restoration act Increasingly we hear arguments in both the courts of law and the courts of public opinion that Islam is not a religion But it is instead a dangerous political ideology hell bent on taking over the united states and subverting fundamental human rights Islam is an almost otherworldly bogeyman a larger than life all consuming swamp creature And the process of stopping it its opponents who run roughshod over the human dignity of everyday human beings who happen to be Muslim For these people again powerful influential people Muslims are somehow not human enough for human rights So who are these opponents first consider some general statistics and anti-muslim sentiment In august 2017 poll by the annenberg public policy center at upenn found that almost one in five Americans believed that under the US constitution American Muslims do not have the same rights as other american citizens A 2016 survey by the pure research center found that almost half of the us adults believe that some American Muslims are anti-american the sumber includes 11 percent who think most are almost all american Muslims are anti-american And a 2015 poll by the associated press and the norc center for public affairs research Found that americans favor protecting religious liberty for christians over other faith groups ranking Muslims as the least deserving of this right The general climate of anti-muslim bias correlates with a sharp rise in hate crimes Which is defined as a as a criminal offense motivated by race ethnicity religion disability sexual orientation gender or gender identity Anti-muslim hate crimes are the fastest growing religious hate crimes roughly doubling from 2014 to 2016 And according to fbi data in 2015 anti-muslim hate crimes went up 67 percent Between 2015 2016 the number of assaults against Muslims surpassed the number of assaults in 2001 the year of 9 11 In 2017 hate crimes across the boards against Muslims and other groups rose by 17 percent with more than a thousand additional incidents Than the year before And in addition to these hate crimes more than 42 percent of muslim children in grades k through 12 have experienced Some type of bullying because of their faith New america diligently tracks this information in its data visualization project Its interactive map displays anti-muslim activities by state divided by type of activity For example, mosque controversies hate crimes, etc The long list of hate incidents reported in the meet to the media in 2018 includes In kansas city, missouri a man broke into a muslim family's home spray painted religious and racial slurs inside the home And set the staircase on fire In st. Augustine florida a man attacked muslim students with a stun gun and knife One of the officers reported that the statements made by the defendant to the victims show that the assailant only committed the acts due To the victims religion In livings in paris louisiana a man rammed his pickup truck to restore because he thought its owners were muslim In carmel california a man was Deliberately hit twice with a car while he was walking with his family The family was recognizably muslim because the women were wearing hijab In new york muslim officers with the nypd found their lockers vandalized by colleagues who wrote anti muslim messages Including fu muslims and spread feces on the lockers And the list goes on The rise in anti muslim sentiment hate crimes both rooted in the idea that muslims are somehow less human or less deserving of human Rights and religious liberty specifically is happening at a time when religious liberty is one of the most important items on the trump administration's agenda Even during the 2016 election presidential candidate ted cruz called elections a religious liberty election Stating that religious liberty issues were front and center in determining who the next president would be Candidate trump promised on the campaign trail that the first priority of my administration will be to preserve and protect our religious liberty And indeed president trump has kept his promise by offering expansive religious freedom protections From opening the new conscience and religious freedom division of the department of health and human services To issuing broader religious liberty guidance and instituting the religious liberty task force of the department of justice The department of education has also announced its desire to change rules that prohibit federal education funding for faith-based entities And last july and again beginning tomorrow the state department will hold a multi-day ministerial to advance religious freedom Last year secretary pompeo issued the potomac declaration and the potomac plan of action According to pompeo these documents reassert the united states unwavering commitment to promoting and defending religious freedom And recommend concrete ways the international community and governments can do more to protect religious freedom and vulnerable religious communities Secretary pompeo has also instituted an accelerator program to help create public private partnerships that could work to protect religious freedom abroad So on the one hand, we've seen major steps forward for religious liberty ones that I support wholeheartedly But I can't help but notice that the steps forward for religious liberty track the issues championed by particular groups Such as conservative christians the right and right alongside them There's a growing climate of anti muslim sentiment and hate crimes and the growing salience of the claim that islam is on a religion And muslims don't deserve religious liberty Even as crews and trump are rallying for religious freedom in the campaign trail They're proposing staunchly anti muslim measures Trump promised to establish a database to track muslims and suggested shutting down mosques and ted crews advocated for surveilling quote-unquote muslim neighborhoods Other presidential candidates chimed in too ben karson declared that a muslim absolutely could not be president And rick centaurims of the us constitution does not protect muslims because islam is quote different from christianity Consider also some of the trump administrations appointees and their positions on islam in 2016 former national security advisor Michael flim told an act for america conference in dallas that islam is a political ideology that hides behind the notion of it being a religion In 2017 then white house aide sebastian gorka could not unequivocally state that islam is a religion When asked by steven in skeep of npr does the president believe islam is a religion gorka failed to give a direct answer Instead of pining. This is not a theological seminary. This is the white house Steve bannon the white house chief strategist who helped design and implement President trump's executive order banning entering to the us of citizens of seven muslim majority states Once mocked former president George w. Bush for stating that islam is a religion of peace According to bannon islam is not a religion Please islam is a religion of submission by which he means submission to a nefarious agenda to take over the us In may 2018 fred fleets was named chief of staff for president trump's national security council Fleece is currently the president of the strongly anti muslim center for security policy And has claimed that muslim communities in america are susceptible to a radical worldview That wants to destroy modern society create a global caliphate and impose sharia law on everyone on earth In april hannah allam who is here with us today reported for buzzfee news as since 2015 Republican officials in 49 states have publicly attacked islam some even questioning its legitimacy as a religion Here are some examples as she offered an oklahoma states representative john bennett in 2014 called islam a cancer And met with muslim constituents only after they filled out questionnaires asking whether they beat their wives Bennett has also said that islam is not even a religion is a social political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest A nebraska state senator proposed that muslim is be required to eat pork if they wish to enter the united states A state senator in rhod island wrote that muslim religion and philosophy is to murder rape and decapitate anyone who is non muslim And recommended the syrian refugees be housed in camps A south dakota state senator who is then writing for the united states house Questioned in official in an official press release whether the first amendment applies to muslims And at 2014 republican congressional candidate and now congressman from georgia questioned the compel compatibility of islam with the american constitution And wrote in 2012 quote islam would not qualify for first amendment protection since it's a geopolitical system So a friend of mine who works with state legislatures to form bipartisan religious freedom caucuses affirms the buzzfee's findings reflect a general trend This is what he told me In my initial meetings with lawmakers, I would try to explain briefly the general threats facing religious freedom in the united states And why it would be prudent for lawmakers to begin to to think strategically and collectively about these issues On a surprising number of occasions lawmakers raised with me their concerns about islam Some I was saying numbering between seven and ten raised with me the issue of whether we should be seeking to pass legislation Banning sharia law I also had an equal number of lawmakers raised with me the question of whether islam is even a religion deserving first amendment protection I estimate that approximately five to ten percent of state lawmakers hold to some version of this idea that islam is not a religion All of the lawmakers were republicans none of them were senior level members of legislative leadership But none were known in advance to be bomb throwers who I generally avoided at that point anyway This lopsided view of religious liberty has of course not gone unnoticed and a number of different writers have caught onto it In a 2015 piece titled when muslims are the target prominent religious freedom advocates largely go quiet The washington post michelle borstein wrote about the relative silence from the religious liberty camp When republican presidential candidates made shocking statement after statement denying muslims their civil rights tom gelton of national public radio also wrote a piece that year titled conservatives call for religious liberty, but for whom In april 2017 peter beinard wrote about the phenomenon for the atlantic and a piece called when conservatives oppose religious freedom cathard stewart asked the same question and op-ed in the new york times called Whose religious liberty is it anyway? And after the supreme court's decision in the travel ban case michelle borstein of the washington post considered the difference in the way the religious liberty advocates had responded to a decision issued just a couple weeks prior The masterpiece cake shop case versus the way they responded to the travel ban decision So just to give a brief overview of what those cases were the masterpiece cake shop case was decided on june 4th 2018 it involved jack philips a christian baker who refused on religious grounds to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple The court ruled 7 2 in favor of the christian baker holding that the colorado civil rights commission and reviewing the gay couples complained had engaged in An impermissible anti muslim animus even at one point comparing philips to nazis And yet three just three weeks later the court's majority utterly failed to comprehend the gravity of the president's animus against muslims It upheld the travel ban despite evidence of prejudice far more egregious than evidence in masterpiece case The great importance of national security pushed the court to defer to the president almost completely Of course, justice is soto mayor and kidsburg pushed back against that saying that these concerns about national security were mere window dressing for animus So regardless of what thinks what one thinks about the law and the way that that court decided the case What's really interesting is a fact that there was silence among the most vocal advocates of religious freedom Michelle borstein wrote a piece called why many religious liberty groups are are silent about the supreme court's decision on president Trump's travel ban She took to task these religious liberty groups for not saying anything at all In fact, I mean even again, even if they agreed with the law They absolutely had nothing to say about the overt overt anti muslim animus that have been continuously part of the public discourse Even if the law required the justices to rule the way they did their avenues to change the law Why didn't religious liberty advocates say anything about that? And more recently in february 2019, alabama executed dominic ray a muslim death row inmate without accommodating his request to Have an imam in the room with him The clergy permitted the execution chamber where only those are on staff and the only clergy on staff was Or christian ray challenged the prisons done out denial and religious liberty grounds But the supreme court said he couldn't have the clergy with him and ordered that he be executed that the same day The decision shocked many americans leaving them wondering in the words of the new york times editorial board is religious freedom for christians only Or as borstein wrote in her piece the difference in response raises new questions about what precisely is meant by religious liberty in america today And indeed that is the question facing our discourse So without having to go too long I wanted to go into some of these legal implications and talk about The the incidences that i'm seeing in both the the context of house of worship and the challenges to those Across the us the book of course opens with the case of the salamic center murphy's burrow A case that i was involved in and the first time that i actually heard in the context of a court case In court that islam is on a religion and therefore muslims are not able to build a house of worship This is also has come up in the context of anti sharia laws Which are basically even though they're presented as as pushing back against a major bogeyman Is essentially a way of limiting access to religious arbitration that other religious groups including christians and jews regularly make use of And beyond that one of the other things i talk about in the book is a question of judicial biases and the empirical evidence that has That a number of different studies have produced showing that that muslims who bring religious liberty claims and lower federal courts Are actually half as likely as members of any other religious group to prevail on those claims And the explanation that these researchers A gave for this is the fact that the types of biases that sort of permeate our society Are ultimately impacting the judges in these cases and impacting the ways that they sort of think about muslims and their Their right to religious freedom So beyond these examples my book also looks at other limits on religious freedom Not just for muslims but for religious minorities more broadly I also spend my last chapter on today's culture wars which have pitted religious freedom against sexual freedom There i assess how these culture wars intersect with islamophobia The reality today is our religious freedom has become deeply deeply politicized and this politicization poses as a real threat To longevity scope and strength of religious freedom Some americans want really robust religious freedom for themselves But do not want that rights to benefit muslims not realizing that once they do this they have essentially eroded their right for all americans Thank you So good morning everyone. Thank you for being here. As you can see this is a an important topic The issues are shaping what we think about religious freedom in america today My name is ilhan kagri. I'm the director. I'm the senior fellow. Sorry for Religious freedom at the muslim public affairs council And i'll be moderating today's panel and i want to just introduce The other panelists so immediately to my right is hannah alam and We know asma and robert mckenzie. I'm going to start with robert mckenzie first He is the senior fellow at new america and director of its muslim diaspora initiative He's a domestic and farm policy analyst and scholar of the middle east in north africa An anthropologist by training bobby is an expert in displaced persons refugee resettlement and integration And to arab and muslim communities in the united states and europe He's also an adjunct professor at georgetown university and has been a lecturer at waden state university A researcher at the american university in kairos and a visiting scholar at the university of oxford Before joining new america bobby was a visiting fellow and non resident senior fellow at the brookings institution Where he focused on muslim communities in the west and the syrian refugee Crisis so i'm going to start by asking you a question and then let you sort of Say what do you want so bobby? Can you talk to us about your work and how it intersects with the issues brought up in asma's book? thank you And thank you for that uh for writing this book and thank you for uh for launching it here today with us at new america I just wanted to touch on on a survey that that new america that we ran here In the lead up to the 2018 election cycle We asked the general public a series of questions about muslims but other minorities And I think it's worth just touching on a couple of the key points that came out of the survey Most notably 17 percent i'm going to try and move this Is that better can everybody hear me great most notably 17 percent of americans Excuse me Americans believe that muslims make up 17 percent of the population The muslim community represents 1 percent of our population So just to put that in perspective, that's 3.5 million muslims the general public things muslims make up Over 55 million americans And so that that was one of the things that jumped out Just to suggest that the deep disconnect between the general public's understanding of muslims In terms of just the scope and the scale of muslim communities in the actual size Some of the other points that jumped out that I think are worth noting on 33 percent of americans believe that muslims should get extra american muslims should get extra security at the airport 33 percent of americans Stated that they would feel deeply uncomfortable if the mosques were built in their neighborhood 33 percent of muslims 33 percent of americans said that they feel deeply uncomfortable when seeing muslim americans wearing islamic attire 40 percent Excuse me the general public said that they they believe that For 40 percent of the general public, excuse me stated that they believe that islam is not compatible with american values or society And when we ask follow-up questions to explain why Very few people were able to answer in any cogent way We're we're currently doing a series of focus groups to follow up to try and drill down it to get people to explain And we're finding the same situation is that the general public Deeply misunderstands muslims, but also can't quite explain Some of the fear that they have And and for this reason we we've built a catalog looking at anti muslim activities at the state and local level And we we've catalogued these activities because we wanted to try and get a sense of What things actually look like so we went back to 2012. I know you touched on this but just to To share some of the numbers here We've cataloged almost 800 incidents and the incidents are are broken down into six categories anti sharia legislation Opposition to refugee resettlement which is largely about opposition to refugees who are muslim Anti muslim statements and actions hate incidents Against mosque islamic centers and then violence and crimes against muslims And I should state that when you look at the at this catalog online one of the things that jumps out is is just How you know the number of severe incidents, so you have less severe incidents But you have murder attempted murder arson You have extreme incidents violence in schools And I pulled together this catalog in part because of some of the work that i'm doing in houston And I heard from muslim communities there just how bad things have gotten And I would be very candid with you. I I wasn't entirely convinced until until we started to pull together this This database because I thought our things as bad as people are saying or do they think it's bad because We have this horrible rhetoric coming from uh presidential candidates and and sure enough the data is pretty clear at at how horrific these incidents have been I should state that that the the positives out of all of this at least in places like houston is that you have The muslim community on the ground they're working with the jewish community and all kinds of other communities to think about How can they engage with local elected officials to try and address And mitigate some of these incidents So I I guess I I I'll I'll end here because I the number that just really jumps out at me when we did the survey was that your the average american thinks that that muslims make up 17 percent And that number is just so vastly off and I'll I'll leave it there Thank you So, um, let's move now to hannah alum hannah is a washington based national security correspondent for npr Focusing on homegrown terrorism extremism Before joining npr. She was a national correspondent at bus feed news covering us muslims and other issues of race religion and culture Alam previously reported for mclachi spending a decade overseas as bureau chief in bagdad during the iraq war And in kairu during the arab spring rebellions. She moved to washington in 2012 to cover foreign policy Then in 2015 she began a year-long series documenting rising hostility toward islam in america Her coverage of islam in the united states won three national religion reporting awards in 2018 and 2019 Alam was part of mclachi teams that won an overseas press club award For exposing death squads in iraq and a polk award for reporting on the syrian conflict She was a 2009 neiman fellow at harvard and currently serves on the board of the international women's media foundation So thank you So can you speak to what it means when american muslims say they're being? Securitized or looked at only through the lens of national security Sure. Yeah, um So us may you talked a little bit about that project? I did while I was at buzzfeed. I'm sorry And so yeah, I mean election and you know, although the hostility that sort of anti muslim rhetoric of the campaign trail Um buzzfeed started a beat that they were they initially advertised as the islamophobia beat and um I I got the job, but I did take issue Immediately with the name because I think that's just such a narrow lens and that's not to take away from buzzfeed I think that the idea was unique A pop-up beat specifically talking about this really hostile moment for for american muslims and to their credit they created a space for that when It was very sort of casually overlooked or you know, it was there was a story here and there They recognized it early on as a specific, you know, sort of Threat to Threat to democracy, you know how muslim that is going to be an urgent civil rights question And so after we changed the name of the beat to muslim life in america, which was nice and broad and then You know, then we did not have to look at muslims the us muslims specifically through that islamophobia and national security lens Um, and then I also didn't want it to be hate crime of the week beat You know, which would have been very easy as we heard from the these this laundry list of incidents And that's you know reported hate crimes doesn't even get into the snatched hijab at the subway or the you know Minor the lesser hate incidents that don't always get Logged as hate crimes. And so I didn't want it to be this or that I just wanted to take a hard look at what life is like at a moment of intense hostility For three and a half million people. I know the uh estimates vary up to 17 percent. No, I'm just joking But um, that there that there is a significant chunk of the population living in real fear and uncertainty about what their Place in america was going to be how they were going to interact with their friends and families and at their jobs. And so Um, it we started to hear this Um, you know all of the different rhetoric and so a colleague to lala and sari and I sat down one day and we said You know, I bet we could take all of these incidents And I bet we could write a story that said half Of all us states have an elected official that's said something openly You know anti muslim so we said you take the first 25 I'll take the last 25 list bill to spreadsheet and we did 49 out of 50 States had it. So like you bobby, I wasn't quite sure of the scope Although I was hearing it in dribs and drabs and I think to see it all together. Yes, it paints a very clear and um sort of lucid picture of What was this sort of casual bigotry or casual anti muslim sentiment and so You know rather than look at these issues as just um You know like through the through this lens of hate crime. I wanted to look at it thematically A what is it like to live through these and for sure document hate crimes the responses to them or lack of in some cases Um, but also what was this doing fundamentally to american muslim? What are their what how is it how is it informing their activism their political engagement and so You know for sure. This was uh, I mean the reporting I mean it was just I look back on it now and it really paints a harrowing time For muslims that i'm not sure that we're all out of yet You know and that where it appeared that there were attacks on every front From their appearance job discrimination bullying in schools speaking arabic or do on planes vilified in movies and tv As noted we have a sitting cabinet member ben carson who's on the record saying muslims shouldn't be president something that's You know flies in the face of the constitution so And then you know on my desk I keep a a piece of a burned quran Page that I pulled out of a barrel from the ruins of the mosque in victoria texas after it was torched hours After the the first iteration of the travel ban was uh, it was announced And so no so that there was a very very much this climate of fear But what was really interesting and what I hope gets as much Thought and and coverage and discussion Is the us muslim communities because there is no that's the number one there is no one community, right? The reaction to it and you know as we know they're with trauma. There's growth There's resilience and some of the really interesting things that I was able to cover I mean this uh, the most obvious is the you know record political engagement of muslims saying Yes, we're scared, but rather than cower at home. We're gonna run And they did and now we have two muslim women in congress because of that and record numbers across the across the country um, also the kind of this Youthful youth driven rebellion against some of the old leaders who say, you know, we get it after 9 11 We had this kind of trauma and you know, um, you all issued all these statements of apology and condemnation We're beyond that that doesn't cut it for many of the young muslims. They interviewed they want to move beyond the apologies um, and they also, you know, don't want the mic monopolized by older groups and and some of the established activists who They recognize and appreciate as pioneers for pushing for rights and recognition of american muslims, but also They need to share the stage, you know, and this is not just muslim communities This is you know, many many marginalized communities And you know, you see things like this long overdue talk within muslim circles about racism That had existed You know had had really caused almost the erasure of a huge subset of american muslims, which are black muslims um Also the role of women on mosque boards and in leadership positions The growth of u.s. Islamic Seminaries is kind of a challenge to the old idea that You're only an Islamic authority if you go to al-as-had or you know, some of the other institutions um And but really I just left those two years of reporting With the idea that I mean the central tensions that In every story if you boil it down to the essence it just seemed like there was this anxiety Over what would islam be in american the future? Is there a uniquely american islam? If so, what would that look like? And and then among the clerical class among the shiuch that I would talk to they were very worried that you know That all of this push and pull of this moment was going to result in an islam that was watered down and from You know from a a faith with clear-cut rituals and obligations To a mere identity I'm culturally muslim, you know, you'd hear people say so, you know, so those are really the central tensions and they're still playing out They're still leadership struggles. They're still those fears But it's not You know, I think from the very from the climate of fear There's also a lot of opportunities and it's interesting to see I will be watching what muslim groups and individuals do Very positive Points Well, yes, and they're true and they're absolutely true. So I had a question for you. So I think one of the reasons that both here and in europe that Sort of the general public Is fearful of muslims and perceives muslims as being violent Is because the news coverage of violent attacks attacks is disproportionate So according to asma's book the attacks by muslims receive 357 percent more coverage than attacks committed by others and the ispu poll the most recent one Says that attacks by muslims receive 770 percent more coverage than attacks by non muslims. So Obviously, this is going to rile people up into thinking that you know muslims are doing a lot more violence than other groups Or committing a lot more violence. So is there anything that can be done to sort of Make this more you know to Correct this disparity and then even more Is there anything that can be done to prevent siloing of information so that people are not You know exposed to only one point of view. So we get people who only hear bad things or only hear Prejudicial things or or things that are going to You know bring about you know fear and And falsehoods about islam. Do you think the industry? The news industry can do something about you know sort of correcting those issues I mean definitely and I think it starts by having building diverse newsrooms. I mean that's how That's how coverage changes, you know the way the civil rights movement was covered, you know without You know significant numbers of black reporters in newsroom. I wonder what that would have looked like how different it would be And so yes, a I think you need to build diverse and inclusive newsrooms that you know It's not it's there is a level of expertise. That's needed in in talking about these issues. Um, sorry if this is Mike is messing up um, also, I think that you know now Covering now on my new beat at mpr covering homegrown extremists I think that there is a public shift with the rise of the right wing, you know the far right white nationalists and those kinds of groups There they've gotten a lot of coverage in the past couple of years that Before would have been coverage taken up by muslims frankly and although the Was a fbi. I think um One of the security agencies has said for 15 years that the far right threat is the most persistent The deadliest the most active threat in the in the united states now We're seeing big takeouts on that You know where where that wasn't um, that wasn't the case before and the other thing that I I really hope to Focus on is the theme of my reporting this year It's you know, you know that there's Parallel systems that someone who we've all seen the memes and it happens after every incident where there's a far Right perpetrator of an attack and people say oh, but if he was muslim he would have been this and this um now you are And the treatment as as you know outlined in those results If that's clear cut, but now that i'm digging into it I see that an extremist who acted based out of you know, some warped ideology coming from islam Is treated differently at every stage of the system from someone who is you know Some warped ideas of racial superiority So from how they get targeted Who gets surveilled who gets a sting operation? Who gets an intervention because he's a good kid worth saving and who gets 30 years in tarot you know in maximum security from even to the point now of they've served their time and getting out Now there's you know, this there's uh quite a lot of talk about the first post 9 11 isis And shabab and some of the other groups who were you know the people who were convicted on material support cases Those guys are starting to come out now and there's like oh my gosh We don't have a program in place. What should we do with them? And so there's a lot of talk in national security circles about building some kind of program What's missing in that conversation is the the reality that we're actually releasing Violent white supremacists and you know, white racial extremists Every day, you know, what they've served their time But because they're charged differently viewed differently treated differently by the system at every step of the way There's not that concern like what are we going to do? We need a national rehabilitation for these guys So I think that discrepancy will be very interesting to watch I remember the um shooter one of the uh high schools when he was arrested The police took him to um burger king on the way to Uh to the police station and uh people were saying how do you been a muslim or a personal color that there's no way that he would have been given that kind of understanding so The mental health component too. I mean that's always sort of brought up immediately. Was he troubled? Was he depressed? If you have a history of drug abuse, you know in those cases that sort of You know context or family background is often suspended when we're talking about you know When we're talking about muslims. I remember distinctly and a muslim woman activist. I was interviewing saying You know Sarcastically, you know, somebody needs to come and study muslims because we apparently are never crazy We have no problems with mental health. We are never, you know, have these issues because we just act purely out of religious Celatory, I mean that was that was kind of her summary of uh her frustration with that people do complain though that um White perpetrators or violets are humanized Whereas people of color and muslims are dehumanized from from the get-go and that's not just from the police But also in terms of the reporting. So you hear more Positive things, you know, he was a good kid But he seemed to you know, he may have been troubled recently and look at his family And you don't get that same kind of coverage from either, you know An african-american perpetrator or a muslim perpetrator, right? So that also is I think the media has some role to play in that as well Right in correcting that. Absolutely. And I think yes, I mean there's A criticism and I've made it in newsrooms and outside of newsrooms, you know Pushing back on coverage and storylines that I think are unfair I mean nobody's asking for special treatment or special coverage and I would make it clear to muslim groups and communities that I cover I'm not here as your stenographer, but I'll give you a fair shake I'm gonna write with accuracy and sensitivity and you know and I mean that's not too much to ask, right? For for my colleagues and media to do So Esma, um, you spoke in your book and also today About judicial bias against muslims particularly muslims bringing religious liberty claims and um If you want you can talk a little bit more about that, but my question is Can there be a corrective to this? Can there be some kind of uh training implicit bias training that you think, you know The judiciary should start thinking about the way they're thinking about it in the police force Sure, I mean so so To give more details about what that The various research reports brought out It's essentially the reason that really that muslims and the religious liberty claims Face or sort of this heightened bias is because the nature of religious liberty is that it puts your religion front and center Right, it's not something kind of in the background that you might consider or may or may not come up But it's literally at the center of the case And also the very nature of religious liberty claim is one in which a believer is saying that their government and an official who's charged with it You know enforcing order It has restricted unfairly my religious practice So specifically the contrast is put up is is muslim religious practice versus an american official trying to enforce order Or enforce the law and that particular sort of contrast Um Really kind of calls to mind according to these researchers and their and what their They're sort of like hypotheses were in terms of why they were seeing the numbers that they were seeing is because judges are not actually Aware I think they would all sort of all judges sort of prides themselves on their impartiality But it's sort of like they're really sort of triggered on those are base notions of muslims as threats to public order Particularly when the muslim in front of them is a muslim prisoner Where of course those fears about security and so on are even more heightened Um, and so yeah, I mean I think a huge part of sort of like counteracting that is for it's for there to be an Understanding that these biases are at play And so I remember like that particular section heading of the book was it was a quote by a judge saying you're biased I'm biased. What are we judges going to do about that? And it's and I think that that's that's important for the judges themselves to understand that these factors even if they Don't acknowledge them And might even deny them might actually be in play And to undergo the sort of necessary trainings to help them identify that better So there is talk in the digit share about you know being aware of these well not the specific bias I think they're aware. Does it awareness of biases generally? Um, but I'm not aware of one specifically looking at you know, how that impacts muslims Um, but of course the purpose of the book again would be to kind of bring attention to that issue Um, Bobby, so you talked about the fact that The threat looks much bigger than it might actually be if there is a threat at all and asma pointed out in her book that The christians non christians constitute only six percent of the us population if you take christians and jews together The remainder make up only four percent of the population And yet there's a talk among conservatives of the demise of white christian america This is a big fear that seems to be sort of growing in that Sector of our population so If you look at the numbers, could you not argue that white evangelicals aren't so much worried about the demise of christianity As they are about the demise of majority whiteness and the special privileges that come with it. I mean isn't I'm trying to figure out as a muslim. I'm trying to figure out what it is about islam That's so threatening and I can't help but feel that You know, we're sort of falling into a group of people of color, you know with Same groups as immigrants a lot of muslims are immigrants and that this isn't about christianity so much as it is about whiteness sure I don't want to speak on behalf of it the white evangelical But I and I I also am not doing research with them But I just I do want to just piggyback off of something that Hannah had talked about in sort of the statements and actions by elected officials One of the things that I didn't realize before we started doing the research here Is just the the scope and scale of some of these these statements and just for the audience I'm not talking. We're not talking about something. I don't like muslims. So we're talking about local mayors Organizing rallies or protest anti muslim rallies. We're talking about the mayor of calcasa michigan Calling for the killing of every last muslim on facebook and you can't make this up And when you start to catalog this at the at the local level It paints a rather troubling photo Or picture rather I think that the fear though is in my mind Is is in part the result of muscle memory from 9 11 I mean, this is very real in people's minds and I think if you then couple that with A set of spectacular attacks and and throughout the 2000s in europe, but without question the Horrific and spectacular attacks of isis This is is very strongly in americans minds and if you Then couple that with a lack of understanding or knowledge about muslim communities There's a fear about how big the communities are. What are they trying to do with sharia? Um, and I think you know, it's worth noting that many of these incidents. I think are largely under reported um, I just I was talking to um A muslim community in northern virginia that has had enormous obstacles in trying to build a mosque And uh, I they didn't want to talk to the new york times or the washington post They didn't want to make any waves And they've essentially kept their heads down and I suspect that's happening all over the country Right now i'm i'm working with google on a pretty large research project Where they've given us access to their data and we are looking at what kinds of things americans search for across all 3000 counties After jihadist terrorist attacks and we're comparing about muslims in islam And um, it's at a time when people are groping for information I guess the real question is how do you address some of this? um, I think it's quite difficult when you have folks running for office At the highest level who have pretty uh, nasty things to say Um, so I'm I think the silver lining I touched on I think hannah touched on it far more eloquently is just I think what what i'm seeing I think what so many of us are seeing at the local level is you're seeing communities Not just muslim communities, but other communities that are energized that are mobilizing and are getting involved In civil society. They're running for office um, you know, I I've talked to maybe 10 people in the last month who are muslims Um, who are interested in running for congress and in part because of all that's going on so, I mean the uh, perhaps the uh The perverse irony is that I think our president didn't expect that he would unintentionally Mobilize not just muslims, but all kinds of other uh communities to engage one another I mean I I was in just one more final point was in at a You have a lecture at rice university four or five months ago And after that we did a private event with members from adl and muslim community And I suspect that event would not have been possible 10 years ago But everybody in that room was quite fired up about the current environment and saying what can we do individually and as a community to work with others To try and make positive change So but to your your direct and uh Pointed question about how do we how do we get it some of this? I I think it's super complicated When we have national leaders who are fanning the flames In addition though to the sort of the ongoing their terrorist attacks and um sort of media People are seeing their stoking fears I think it should also be recognized that there is a group of strategists who are very highly funded Whose job it is day to day out to propagate this fear? And so I think one of the things I look at in the book is the fact that a lot of Americans kind of think Oh, our fear and anxiety is sort of a natural outgrowth of the world that we live in But in fact what they don't realize that there's a very very strategic sort of plan to disseminate these ideas Um to both implement I mean the sort of the entire movement behind the so-called entry Are also been backed up by these marches against sharia happening in um, you know In hopping on the streets in various cities Um, you know the type of rhetoric that's being fed to school boards and people wanting to challenge accommodations for muslims And others in public schools. I mean there's a it's a very Concerted strategic effort. It's an industry actually. It's a well funded industry. Yeah, I mean the Center for American Progress calls it fear Um And the question of the the nova mosque I spoke to those same guys And they also told me how it was just like there was very very careful about navigating this Of course, it cost them a hundred thousand dollars in legal fees In trying to be sort of like a very sort of subtle in the way with this and kind of dealing with these series of absurd claims That the opposition was bringing One of them being that they wanted them to measure the death at night That was the challenge that they had the concern about you know, it's noise at night As if people in that community were not allowed to close doors at night And they're like we just kept dealing with these absurd claims and we knew that what was driving them But we wanted to deal with them in a way that didn't sort of incite greater opposition Um, which I respect. I think I that's that's that's great But what it really kind of shows is this idea that even though we have these religious freedom protective laws in that case the religious The way that muslims are protected by that is very sort of uneven Right, so we can have these things in the law But in actuality the way that played out is very different Right because one group just has to put up with more one group has to say we're not going to bring Uh litigation because it might make our neighbors hate us even more Right, and so I think that's an important point there Um and the question of you know, sort of the rise in anti-muslim hate crimes and the types of anxieties that that's leading to But also the positive um, you know, some of this positive that hannah pointed out in terms of greater civic activism and sort of like Questions around racism and women's rights. I think that's all really great And it's true and I've seen that I've witnessed that Um, but some of the research that I also write about in the book by for instance legal scholars Sahara Z and called they doon are these various types of performance strategies that american muslims have taken on As a way and one of them is confirming islam and confirming islam kind of fits this idea of sort of like championing their their muslimness and And and being sort of proud of it But there's a number of other things that a lot of other muslims are doing such as uh, you know Covering or concealing or even converting out of their faith Well, they're just afraid to look muslim to be muslim and and some of them are changing their names They're addressing in specific ways all to sort of like divert attention from from themselves and to and to seem more Kind of like the good muslim the acceptable muslim And so we have to account for that as well the way that sort of authentic self expression And religious freedom is totally being undermined by this anxiety and the need to present themselves in different ways And finally on the question of christianity Playing a role. It's interesting you asked that and of course, I'm definitely not a representative of the evangelical christian Community in america But I do think that christianity has a role Is sort of central to some of that not christianity as a religion But people identifying as christians and their concerns about the way the christianity maps onto the national discourse national politics And and and we hear increasingly this idea that you know, the moral majority is now the persecuted minority Early senses itself as a persecuted minority and I think that sense of persecution and losing hold as sort of a dominant religious group Who's whose positions are sort of exemplified Is absolutely playing into a lot of this anti muslim bias Well, my question was more about race whether race because it's white christian america. How much does race play Into it. So that's Fall up and go money and I don't want to dodge the the race question But I two projects here that were abandoned just because they were difficult to do research on is that You mentioned the the industry and I think it's worth folks here knowing that somewhere between 40 and 60 million have been raised To support these smaller organizations that push out anti shria legislation so I My team reached out to every Legislator at the local level that put this forward to see if they would answer any questions And I spoke with 10 of them and I asked them could they You know, why were they doing this? And also could they just help me understand what sharia is and what anti sharia legislation would do And in all 10 instances like they couldn't explain what sharia is nor could they explain really what the legislation was and I want to Circle back to the donors though that are supporting some of this work safer act for america because I've also tried to reach out with some of these family Officers and family trusts that have actually given quite a bit of money to this And I spoke with five and I asked and did you realize what you were funding? And by their account, they said no we had people knocking on our door Telling us that you know, there's a real threat and we're trying to do research around it And they wrote large checks for this. So I I mean, you know, so I It was fascinating talking to again a very small number of donors That wrote sizeable checks That said they they they had no idea what they were giving to and likewise I thought it was equally fascinating to talk to to you know, 10 legislators said that Didn't have the foggiest notion what which sharia is And so I said why push this forward and they couldn't quite articulate A cogent reason for that and I mean, I know the reason is that it's throwing red meat to a particular base Because it gets people fired up, but it's worth noting that you know since 2012 there's been A hundred and fifty by my account a hundred and fifty three Attempts since 2012 of instituting anti sharia legislation. It's only passed 12 times And so they've since changed the name to foreign laws And they're trying to become more nuanced, but but but never passes and if you talk to the folks Continue to try and push it forward You know, they know what they're doing, I think But you know, it's effective not in terms of legislation, but in terms of stealth and fear So I just wanted to add those points, but I I mean I I wasn't I didn't want to dodge the race question I just feel like it's I mean in my from you know, from my perspective, you know, trying to think about donors trying to think about legislators These are these are things that I either individuals or institutions I can reach out to and ask questions of But it's these bigger macro issues. I think are are really hard For all the reasons that I think are obvious I think, you know, I've been asked this question by just sort of ordinary friends who say look, you know, we're only one percent of the population Um, you know, and we've been made into the bogeyman and okay So maybe the you know, American population at large might not know these numbers But certainly the Pamela Gellars and they you know, these, you know, big islamophobes who are heads of these You know, participate in this sort of industry. Surely they know the numbers. So what is their issue? What is their problem? I mean, there's let's assume the population one percent of Muslims How many of them are really active? How many of them are, you know, are really interested in in doing the death and destruction that they're afraid of So, you know, how do you how do I I haven't been able to answer those people? Why do they say what what are they afraid of? I mean, I'm baking cookies for my, you know You know, they like children's elementary school. So How do you answer that? Well, you know, look, I mean, there are some people that that Have real misguided fear and they channel that in really really negative ways I mean, I I do have other folks who are quite ignorant about the issues and I think but I think your average American isn't Sitting around thinking about this or thinking about this when something happens And this is why if you look at the database that we created If you look at both the Boston Marathon attack and if you look at Charlie Hebdo There wasn't a huge spike in anti-Muslim incidents because we didn't have Anyone running for office then or anyone in office that was spanning the flames But if you compare Sort of the trend to 2016 you had The rise of the ISIS caliphate in the august of 2014 and then you had the spectacular attacks But it wasn't just the attacks. It was then You know, Chris Christie saying he wouldn't take in a five-year-old orphan from Syria suggesting there's something fundamentally wrong with Muslims It was Donald Trump pounding the drums It was the media covering it was all of this coupled with the industry that you mentioned with with Very little pushback So I it, you know, all of these things arrayed And continued to be arrayed in a way that are that are quite quite dangerous But I you know, I do think for all the reasons that that Hannah articulated I think there are lots of positives coming out of this very toxic moment and Um, the positives are people more engaged different kinds of communities getting involved that don't normally get involved That you know lest I sound too rosy and optimistic. I am a jaded journalist, but um that You know at the end of my time at buzzfeed. I was looking into poverty and Muslims because actually I think we're fed this image of the candidate Muslim the Hijabi Instagram influencer, you know, and those are ways to yes counter these narratives These are specific choices of images that that are put out there and they are also just people living their lives and doing their thing um, but You don't I mean, there's also a vast number of Muslims. I think majority I don't have the numbers handy But I remember it was a majority of Muslims actually live out of below the poverty level And so no, they're not going to you know say this is a moment. I'm gonna run for office I mean, they're trying to make rent and make a car note and find jobs and you know And so I think there is there is a very real level of vulnerability And I was saddened that I didn't get to To report that out, but it's something that I think deserves attention as well in you know as You know with all those other things being true that it is yeah all this like it really is a sea change that we're seeing I mean on both sides. I mean we're seeing this is not the the muslims sort of activists and national leadership and everything that This is not The one that I grew up with and not seeing you know The lecturers that would come to the masjid in oklahoma where I grew up I mean that's it's totally it's a different in tone and tenor and makeup and everything else And then also I have seen White evangelical neighbors of ours changed in just my generation. I like I said oklahoma Where you know the story that I always think of is I would go to my friends houses And you know they would know hannah's different. She doesn't eat pepperoni pizza And so the moms would actually go out of their way to say hannah. We ordered a cheese pizza for you There were small accommodations to say you're welcome in our home Those same moms now a generation later or not even a generation I mean we're all we're facebook friends and I see them reposting like really viciously anti muslim memes And so I think there is something to the choosing to fear and choosing to do I mean You knew a muslim family. They were your neighbors. We were in your homes We played with you know, we played on the cul-de-sac where we all grew up and now you're saying I'm you know, we're gonna come and blow up the neighborhood or something. I mean, it's just Even goes against your own life experience And that's what's been really hard to capture reporting wise as a reporter and also just to You know realize that this is uh, these are homes. I'm no longer welcome then just simply because of where my dad came from I mean I think I think a number of us have stories like that I remember the day after the 2016 or the day of because it kind of got finalized at two in the morning um You know, I think I just saw a number of facebook posts where people are saying things like that Like one person was talking about someone who essentially was like her second mother growing up All of a sudden completely turning on them and telling them You know there's always a vicious hatred coming out and it was just like well, who were you all those years and I experienced it in the form of You know this this christian couple Who you know we weren't um, they weren't our clients at beckett, but they had similar concerns about But then hhs contraceptive mandate impacting For profit companies and and I was you know, they were the owners of this for profit company And I was one of the the few people who sort of stepped out of the political You know controversy to see their their claims as as having sort of coming from a sincere religious place And I think I kind of like went that in in that direction and always had a good relationship with them They took me out to to breakfast and to lunch and and You know when I went when I was visiting chicago and we would talk and then the day of the election it was suddenly The facebook post on my page started whereas like if you don't believe in This is a judeo christian nation and if you don't accept those values need to leave And it was like they're posting it on all kinds of stuff that I was tagged on and I tried engaging at first But at some point I was just like there goes that friendship This person needs to be blocked because it was just consistent This idea of like now we're free to say this and we're going to say it to you Despite all your measures of reaching out to us over the years That's an interesting question. Are you saying? Or you know that they felt that way anyway that these are you know These kind of the things that we're seeing this white nationalism that this is not a new phenomenon that this was a phenomenon that that actually existed in our society And that we're just you know sort of the the facade has come off or is this something that's rising Do we see people who were not that way who didn't believe that way but are now convinced into moving into that direction? Is that what we're seeing in this country? Bobby said it's a it's a confluence of things there was you know, 9 11 Was a huge, you know influence this industry the salmophobia industry. We've talked about You know, I would interview people who you know experts who study this trend and they would say you know That maybe even if those the suspicions and skepticism and the you know Xenophobia if it was there and then we have seen it with different groups of japanese with You know with irish et cetera throughout the years that you know I don't know that there What would they say about it that? I'm sorry. I lost my train of thought there, but it basically that we that That you have to that these they now have an ready language for it. That's what it is that they have memes They can post talking points They can use if you're a politician actor america can write an anti sharia bill and give it to you the questionnaire you know Incident and was it texas or oklahoma where you know, they I think is oklahoma my state where Yeah, where they and texas where you know, there was this you have to you have to Fill out a questionnaire with all these offensive questions before you can meet your elected official That wasn't the elected official waking up one day and saying I think i'll do a questionnaire I mean those were provided to them from my understanding of reporting and so yeah, I think that it's You may be recognizing that there was that Animus there and doing what they can to sort of stir it up. I don't know But I think it's a number of different factors and even the uh, well We're seeing a rise in anti-semitism as well as a matter of fact It looks like both here and in europe, you know research has shown that they sort of patterned together So those people who hold anti-semitic and anti-muslim or anti-islamic views sort of You know if they hold negative views of one they hold negative views of the other and if they hold positive views of muslims They also hold positive views of jews So but we are seeing a rise both in europe and in the united states of uh in anti-semitism as well So Was that there before was that is that just you know, or is it people are just sloppy and saying, oh, okay This seems to be the trend Anti-semitism is around for a long time But you're you're quite right. I'm doing a big project with adl Will we look at hateful content on twitter and it is it's crystal clear that the folks who don't like jews also don't like blacks or gays or muslims and the list goes on and Trying to understand though You know the key nodes and how this information is shared is is complicated Because you have a number of folks who are not part of hate groups who Also openly engage in and sharing and resharing some of this this horrible content I mean you're going to have the act for americas out there that are strategically placing information But you also have ordinary individuals who are been engaging with this um, so It's a real problem I'm going to open up questions to the floor. So uh, do we have a mic that's going to go around? okay, and if you could, um raise your hand if you have a question and uh You know when you when I call on you stand and identify yourselves and If you're part of an organization No, give us that as well. Let's start right here Just one second. She's going to bring you the mic So greeting a piece. I'm imam Ali siddiqui belong to a muslim institute for interface studies and understanding Do we see a time coming in in the united states that We will be behaving as The people in new zealand behaved that they embrace muslims after the attack on muslims and they actually nationally observed friday prayers And then in the in the um in the parliament The prime minister has openly says will not take the name of these terrorists And then put out very very friendly statements and people on the streets and the community embracing muslims This has changed the narrative Okay, is anybody in particular No, I think we're far from that I will tell you we've we've done some focus groups in houston specifically with muslims and one of this was right after uh, New zealand arrived about a month after I was really surprised to hear um That most muslims in houston believed that you know the odds of a new zealand like attack happening in houston are you know Near 100 percent. I mean in fact, I was nearly shocked to hear this I mean the vast majority of muslims responded With that and I think that all of us were taken aback to hear that the fear was that Was that high and we did this all and for those of you that don't know houston is a massive sprawling city and it's a very diverse city and This was the feeling with hispanic muslims. This was the feeling with african american muslims From poorer communities. This was the feeling from newer immigrant communities. It was right across the entire Spectrum, so it was quite quite troubling, but I yeah, I mean I I don't know what the uh, the other panelists think but I I think what's most troubling is not that people have Negative views I think it's it's when these views become dangerous and they're trying to mobilize them in ways I mean, I think that you know one of the great things about this country You do work is that we can disagree with one another We don't have to agree with one other's religion or ideas or ideology, but we should be respecting one another and we've moved into a place where I mean, I think that you know civil discourse is significantly eroded I think you can gauge how far we are from the moment you're describing by just looking at the reaction and backlash to uh, imam omar salaman giving the Giving a prayer and Congress Sadly does he give me no joy to say that right? I'm adamantideen Ahmed with the Minerative Freedom Institute question for any of you to address is whether you would see a link between Two points that were mentioned by the panel on the one hand that in less than a generation Muslims to fear And the other point about that 17 percent or that the majority of Americans think that 17 percent is Muslims are 17 percent of the population Because my experience Someone who's lived more than a generation is that when I was young I saw that accommodation and now I see that fear But I also noticed that this applies to any minority group A really tiny minority group is seen as an oddity a curiosity A larger minority group is seen as a threat I was raised in the east where blacks were seen as a threat I went to grad school in arizona where they didn't seem to be such a care Caring about blacks, but chicanos were seen as a threat And I think it's because they were seen as a larger and therefore threatening minority Is that's what what's happening with the muslim community? Yeah, I mean, I think what's interesting is that not only is a 17 percent figure sort of grossly inaccurate But I mean, I guess kind of probing as to where that's coming from first And I think that might be I mean, I'm not sure I'm just speculating but I would imagine the sort of the constant sort of discussion about muslims Whether from a negative or positive view and that's sort of that outsized Discussion probably plays into this idea that that there are more muslims than the actions there actually are I think also, you know in terms of accommodation To fear I think it's also just like the perceived power of muslims Like so even if they're kind of seen as an america minority, but I think they're kind of think thought of as increasingly sort of powerful Including here in the us For instance, I mean one of the things I explore in the book is really just how there's this So many of people on the right have this conception of you know, because the a lot of a lot of people on the left Sort of champion islam and muslims rights That there is sort of like well because of these alliances and this coalition that that they now have this sort of power In sort of like elite media and sort of the you know, the northeast Sort of halls of power So there's like also just like this perception which I would argue is not accurate But there definitely is this idea that we have unique access Um to just sort of you know avenues of of influence so I think there's a A movement to delegitimize Both in two ways one is that you know, islam is not a religion And that uh, they're not even american So you were seeing that in the recent tweets over the weekend with president trump talking about the congressman saying They need to go back to the countries they came from and three of them were born in the us And so this idea the delegitimizing You know people who might be you know, who might oppose you or speak out against you Is that playing a role in terms in you know in the big picture? Yeah, I mean when hannah was talking about accommodation She was talking about her neighbor, you know offering a cheese pizza instead of pepperoni But I mean the combinations that that i'm looking at are just sort of the switch between the legitimacy of having legal accommodations To now all of a sudden the space of fear sort of saying well, those aren't legitimate And the and the sort of the sort of way they bridge those is this idea again that islam is not a religion Whether it sort of stayed explicitly or implicitly the idea is This thing and these people who about you know, who are followers of islam are somehow outside the parameters of american rights It is a process for instance that the Yale historian timothy snider called denationalization It's sort of you are not like other religious groups in the us You were like more akin to to american nazis as somebody sort of outside the purview of our constitution um, and so I think that that's sort of the connection that I was pouring The poll the the the research from q and from us and others is pretty clear I mean we focus an awful lot on the president, but you know the fear the myths and this information But muslims spans the entire political spectrum. This is not a republican democrat divide There's an enormous amount of misinformation. I mean the the you know the 17 percent Number comes this is your average american You know across the entire spectrum Thanks that muslims make up 17 of the population. So I think it's it We have to be careful especially if we want to think about how we address this that we don't Put this into this is a republican problem. It this is an american problem I think what got lost in I mean trump's rhetoric was so fiery and so overt That you missed sometimes the subtler rhetoric of clinton helter clinton who would almost unfailingly portray american muslims through a national security lens as you know There I think the line was like our first line of defense. There are front line. There are neighbors. There are friends There are front line of defense. And so I remember interviewing muslims who are like, wait, what? I'm I'm defending the nation. And I just you know I don't know any terrorists. I might be gonna be a front line of defense. Um, so I think that was a subtler But you know still pretty nefarious form of Islamophobia, you know based on the reporting Another question Right here in the front Hi, my name's negara by with the bahazie united states public affairs office I just wanted to thank you all for the work you're doing and what you've presented at a very sort of more specific Question particularly as this connects with it conversations around religious freedom There's I guess it's it's been going on for a while But a resurgence of interest in looking at synergies between women's rights and international religious freedom And there's ways in which that can be done That undermine both or that actually advance both and I wondered if there are particular insights there That you might share it's a broad question But ways where one can really advance the spirit of both of those and they're interdependent Sure. Um, so I mean, I think it's an international world history, but you mean I'm assuming that Yeah, um, I mean, I think the one is sort of like Piercing this idea of religious freedom is sort of protecting a beliefs and then more specifically very traditional Beliefs that are considered sort of backward or sort of traditional And I think that is something that I talk about very explicitly in the book where it's like No, religious freedom is just the freedom to be able to think through these these issues on your own without the interference of the government And so why well yes in some cases that benefits traditional conservative thinking that also benefits more progressive thinking And so we need to start by decoupling this idea of religious freedom as a protection of beliefs But it is the protection of humans and when it protects humans it protects humans of whatever persuasion conservative or progressive And so I think in trying to figure out figure out that relationship between women's rights and a more progressive vision of women's rights Um versus religious freedom. I think that that sort of the versus part of it needs to be taken out And understand that you need the religious freedom in order to advance those rights Um, and I think you know and to that end because it does allow the sort of flourishing of all alternative views and alternative interpretations I think you know, what's really essential is to understand that the best way to sort of bring about Lasting change if your vision is a progressive vision is to to create that to create and encourage and facilitate um The already open space for inquiry that we have because of religious freedom to help to sort of Counteract some of the biases that might be motivating other Believers to sort of institute their religious beliefs in ways that might be anti-progressive visions So in other words, uh Religious freedom provides that open space and it's really up to us to be able to sort of bring from that space The outcomes that that we seek Especially on the women issue You know, I think that in the desire Of in the news media to say, oh gosh, we've really Not been great at covering muslims. There is this Kind of corrective genre of journalism if you will and I think of it in my mind I would say it's the little hijabi who could and it's you know Look, she's so interesting because she has a scarf on her head She's the first this and the only that and you know, I think that can land as patronizing to to muslims And to muslim women and so but I do think there are ways that news media can be better about that And so I think we can first of all just Have muslim women quoted because they're a health expert and we're talking about a new bullet break or you know Because they're an election analyst And so kind of not only having muslim voices talking about muslim focused issues So that's one way And you know, again just building inclusive newsrooms and letting people do all kinds of stories and that you know the kind it's not It's just where you don't see yourself Only as victim or perpetrator, which has been the case certainly I mean, I just remember when I got the beat at buzzfeed thinking now I get to write all the stories that I wished I could have seen When I was a teenager and young adult How inclusive would you say that newsrooms have become in the last few years relative to where they were say 10 years ago? I mean It's it doesn't look good on for women or for people of color. It's still It's something on I'm on the board of international women's media foundation and something that we've paid attention to Specifically for women where there's been very little change. I think that there are more More It's more inclusivity and the reporter level producer level, etc But I think across the board for people of color and other marginalized groups that it's You know, it's the leadership level and that's where news agendas are set and sometimes they're not Sort of crimes of commission like oh someone read wrote this and it's a really Offensive piece or there were all these inaccuracies But it's omission just whole groups of people just never seeing their experience reflected in the news And so that's where I think yeah, they can they can definitely do better I speak and to and mentor a whole lot of students across the country. So I'm really Eager to see what they're gonna what they're doing because they're already. Yeah, they are ready for their work Sorry, my voice is gone. Um, it's hezhar barzani from the Kurdistan regional government Uh, I'd like to ask try to like tie this to diplomacy How does anti rhetoric from this? Anti muslim rhetoric from this administration affect our foreign policy in muslim majority countries How does uh anti muslim rhetoric in america affect, uh, us foreign policy in muslim majority countries? Well, I mean, I remember I covered the state department for several years and I remember that You know anytime the u.s. Was perceived as being Uh anti muslim or soft on human rights issues that definitely gave more space for Uh authoritarian governments overseas to say how dare you lecture us? Um, look at your own thing. I remember being at was at the I was with secretary carry at the opening of the reopening of the cuba and embassy And I remember the cuban foreign minister standing right next to carry and saying Um, oh, you know the us likes to lecture us on human rights But look at police brutality and black communities look at and he gave all these examples and so yes, I think that it's Kind of hard to espouse those traditional american values that diplomats like to talk about when You know when you've got That kind of rhetoric coming from the highest Well, and it also feeds into the rhetoric of extremists overseas because They're not getting their inspiration out of the quran or religious ideology. They're getting they're saying basically It's a clash of civilizations and that there is no place in the west for You know practicing muslims and If muslims are comfortable in the west then that goes against what they're trying to you know preach And so if if there are laws and if the situation for muslims is uncomfortable Then they can say this is something we've been saying all along that there is no place for you In a democracy or within american law, right? So it does feed into Well, one of the things I worked on Early on you know when I was working when I first started in religious freedom What's pushing back against this the so-called you on defamation of religions resolution? I mean the resolution has since Been sort of amended or switched with the sort of resolution 1618 But originally what the defamation of religions resolution was was it was essentially a global lasmi law? And it was this idea that the government governments of various countries should be able to step in when religions are De famed of course at the core of it as it was proposed by the organization of the salma cooperation um It the concern was defamation of Islam and I specifically remember sitting In this conference room with the egyptian council of foreign relations and this professor Sort of going off. He was sort of like one of the architects of this Sort of just going off about the deep necessity for this because he had spent 21 years in South florida and he remembers that the extreme levels of anti muslim bullying. This is pre trump and we're talking about like 2009 2010 um And you know, this is the type of thing that justifies these types of laws And so the you know, there was this Concerned among those of us who are religious liberty advocates unpack was involved as well That again this defamation of religions resolution was just sort of helping to provide cover for blasphemy laws and domestic domestic situations But in fact, it was really kind of being spurred this problematic law that we could all agree it was a resolution that we all could consider problematic was essentially being spurred by Byzantine muslims sort of rhetoric and and bullying happening in the us And so, you know, people try to sometimes create these distinctions between international religious freedom and domestic religious freedom But they're intimately tied because ones were feeds into the other The issue that I I think is most relevant to that question is just looking at how the various Arab states are cracking down on dissidents. I mean specifically the muslim brotherhood. I mean, you know, look across the arab gulf where I Spend a lot of time living and working. I mean, this is this is the boogeyman there and um, it's a way to really Go after communities. So there's no question that the rhetoric coming out of this white house sets the tone and also allows for Um, for many states to go after dissidents and to label them as extremists. So, I mean And some others signing on to, you know, these ideas of of banning the muslim brotherhood here, which On its surface might seem like a foreign policy issue, but um, you probably all seen reporting that shows how that could be kind of weaponized and used to effectively shut down much of muslim civil society here depending on how far those kinds of Investigations or or a crackdown goes and I mean it's hypothetical now But I I think that there was an idea that that's been shelved And I mean the people I talked to in reporting say no, that's you know, it's it's still in play I don't know at what stage, but you know, it's still something that is concerning And so you have a lot of muslim groups. Yeah getting their books in order. It's alive and well. It's just it's nearly impossible to consider them as part of a foreign Terrorist organization for all the obvious reasons, but I think it's a bigger conversation But yeah, and I think I need to explain to the audience that the muslim brotherhood has been around for a long time and that It did not have, you know, very radical. It's in its origin. It wasn't radical. It was it was doing good works in many communities It's not homogeneous. It looks differently in different, you know, has different shapes in different countries And what was happening in the united states is that Uh, there are people who, you know, are older have been active for a long time that may have had Sympathies towards the muslim brotherhood and they could potentially be targeted as saying look, you're now pro or you were one supportive of a Foreign terrorist organization. It would have a very chilling effect on American muslim organizations. That was one of the reasons that they were very worried about this Um, yes Wait, could you just wait for the microphone and also for people watching Yeah, and also introduce yourself. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm benjamin to a no current affiliation The panelists in various ways have uh referred to groups and possibly individuals with a strategic agenda and a strategic Islamophobic agenda and I wonder if you could identify Some of these groups And or individuals who are involved in this effort Yeah, well, I think we didn't we didn't mention some of them acts for america The act for america by bridger gabriel their center for security policy. That's what that was started by frank gaffney And yeah, and csp has actually put out we were we're talking about specifically how this feeds into Legal challenges. They've actually put out for instance a strategy document on how anti-mosque You know opponents can essentially sort of how to do that this strategically in a way that sort of Helps cover up their true and true intentions. So there's actually how two guides that are put out by these organizations There's stop the civilization of america By pamela geller. Um, she's got another one I mean Fear inks stands the test of time. I mean that kind of yeah, it still lays out a lot of that. That's it was that cat Yeah, the center for american progress There's a there's two versions an updated version of the report as well that lays it all out And just to be clear, I mean this these aren't nebulous ideas Some of these organizations are laying out in a very clear way Here's how you obstruct an islamic cemetery from being built. Here's how you obstruct using local ordinances Here's how you obstruct a mosque from being built Yep, and this this is exactly how you should proceed Yeah No, I just be clear. I'm not the we're not talking about neocon organizations. These are not I mean the organizations that we're talking about about here are I mean they are solely set up And with one clear mission, which is to push this stuff. I mean, so I'm this is not Uh, these aren't conservative organizations. These are specifically anti-mism organizations We should not conflate these things Yeah, yeah, no, I'm just to make I'd have to look at it. I don't I don't want to speak off the top of my head about that So I you know, tony perkins head of the family research council from 2004 to 2018 And that organization was a designated hate group by the southern poverty law center He said in 2016 only 16 percent of islam is a religion The rest is a combination of military judicial economic and political system Christianity by comparison isn't a judicial or economic code but a faith And then he also said islam is not a religion in the context of the first amendment So he was appointed to the u.s commission on international religious freedom in 2018 and he became a chair the chair of that commission In june 2019. So is there a conflict there? I mean, I it certainly it should raise eyebrows How do you think that's going that works or how's that going to work? when the commission is is created to you know Defend religious freedom Is he going to say no? Well, we mean some religions, but not all religions not not It's problematic, but I mean this this administration has the right to appoint The individuals they want. I mean this is This is why elections matter I mean it's not just telling you the number of other sort of public officials that we've laid out I mean theory they have a duty to defend all american citizens or their specific constituencies Equally, but clearly they're putting out the very problematic statements. And so I would sorry to interject the last year I was at the ministerial at the state department And you know, they very rightfully Highlighted the enormous challenges facing the behide community across the globe Christian communities in muslim majority countries And I'm glad that that they did that because it needs to be highlighted, but they also framed it in a way to suggest that they're that there's something Fundamentally wrong with with muslim communities. This was the framing of it and that was the problem I had and the individuals that they I'm not going to list their names but the individuals that they that they chose to sort of give various talks At the roundtables were we're coming with a very specific agenda And it's I thought it was terribly problematic and I was surprised that they allowed for this to to take place at the state department I can tell you I don't think in any previous administration republican or democrat That they would have allowed so many individuals inside the building and so You know, they highlighted The real challenges and threats to religious minorities In most majority countries as they rightfully should have but they also framed it in a way which I thought was terribly problematic Um, I have one final question. Did you want to say something? Oh, no Okay, let's let the person in the back end the question Hi, uh, thank you all. Um, this was very enriching. I learned a lot. Um, I'm sarah rah na ma I am a professor of history at morgan state university Um, so this question is for us mine in particular I'm wondering if there's any evidence that religious freedoms Is a fruitful space to engage in The kind of work that I think everybody in this panel is committed to doing Which is, you know fighting this this problem that you very rightfully diagnosed Part of that question for me lies in the fact that there seems to be some synchronicity between religious freedoms as one space and Concerns on the right in particular about free speech and the way that free speech has become a kind of umbrella or Yeah platform under which Particular views can be kind of lumped in um as a yeah as a as a cover basically for what they really are which is hate speech And so I feel like religious freedoms Also becomes this kind of banner where you get also people on the right who come into this space And say you know we want to make sure that as christians our rights are protected And my question is is there is there any evidence that this is yeah at all a fruitful space To address some of these issues Well, I mean I think the evidence that religious freedom is a fruitful space to address any sort of problematic discourse is sort of the The history of our nation, right? We were we were founded on the ideals of religious freedom And it's what's allowed for our accommodation and sort of growing appreciation of diversity And sort of and in each you know the various times in our history We have sort of helped face challenges to that definition of pluralism and with those challenges I mean it's been it's been bloody at many times It's been highly you know with a lot of friction whether it be anti-catholic animus or anti-jewish animus or anti-mormon animus and today anti-muslim animus But in each situation when our definitions and ideals of pluralism have been challenged ultimately we have risen above it And so even as I write about these challenges facing american muslims I do have the hope maybe we're not going to get to the point of new zealand But you know hopefully you know my my my hope with this book and my work generally Is that I am able to draw attention to the the value of our freedoms and our principles and sort of allow and sort of like Inspire american americans to sort of like hold to that ideal And not allow our temporary fears and anxieties to sort of Weaken the freedom and that we will one day move past The the issues that we're facing american muslims Now on the question of you know you have pointed out to the free speech question And I notice that you use square quotes and of course that is a phenomenon now with religious freedom that often it is discussed and written about With scare quotes this idea of like yeah, right religious freedom religious freedom is just a cover for your bigotry And that that is something that I do talk about towards the end of the book this phenomenon of Unfortunately the politicization of religious freedom There's a politicization where it's being used selectively for some groups and against other religious groups But it's also become hopelessly political in the way that it sort of intersects with questions of sexual freedom And so I think that in those cases one of the things I say is that Yes, in some cases people are being pretextual in the way that they use this religious freedom and advocate for that but and we shouldn't allow the cases of pretext to sort of Overlook cases where there is a genuine concern That you know a lot of a lot of for instance conservative christians are facing with the changing rapidly changing Norms of us sexual freedom in this country And I think there needs to be a little bit more sort of understanding of that the genuine And the sincerity of some of those concerns if we're able to kind of help negotiate that in a more fruitful way So Esma you had said when you're in your book you were talking about you know Court cases that ruled in favor of some of the petitioners and you had said that change is possible And that you know rigorous application of the law is the path to that change, right? So do you believe we're going to get the rigorous application of the law As the supreme court moves more to the right or as you know, you see some of these appellate court Judges that are being appointed They move there seem to be very you know sort of conservative right wing Are you can are you hopeful that that we're going to get this rigorous application that you're talking about You know my intention again with the way that I wrote the book and the fact that I did frame these concerns as a religious freedom Concern is specifically speak to those people who prize religious freedom, right? They don't put skirt coats around that they do think it's a very serious thing as they should and it is But it's but of course in the way they sort of conceptualize that they think of it in the selective And sometimes very highly political ways and again the intention with the book is be like you care about religious freedom I care about religious freedom. This is a core religious freedom issue if you can see it that way perhaps it'll change the way that you sort of Figure out the application of rights and it will help inspire you to sort of protect the longevity and the robustness of religious freedom By applying it equally I think our time is up All right So, uh, we'll we'll end on that hopeful note and thank you to our panelists. Thank you to the audience who came thank you to our viewing audience and There'll be a book signing. I think there's some are there some books outside that were back there We don't ask that you read the book, but we insist on you find the book It's a wonderful book. It's really it's very very Informative it's easy to read and packed with information. It's it's really a wonderful book So there will be a book signing in the lobby outside and thank you