 Welcome once again to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Our first major conversation for today is from Bernos state, where the state governor of Afghanistan, of course, has gone ahead to shut down some IDP camps in the state. And of course, with the simple reason saying that they seem to be turning into something else. You know, he has mentioned that some of these camps are now being used to peddle drugs. And of course, also, you know, has noticed some sort of prostitution going on in those camps and they are no longer serving the purpose with which they were set up. We're speaking this morning with Abu Bakar Musa Haruna, Biu, who's a news editor, Radio 9JR Meduguri, and also Chike Achu Dei. Mr Achu Dei, good morning and thanks for joining us. Yes, good morning. All right. Thanks for joining us. Just before we connect with Abu Bakar Haruna. Mr Achu Dei, the reasons given, let's start with that. The reasons given by the Bernos state governor about drugs being peddled and these IDP camps turning into a completely different story from why they were set up. Do you see these as big enough reasons for the camps to be completely shut down? Well, it depends on what the initial objective of the government was in setting up the camps. In fact, the camps are no longer meeting up with, you know, those objectives, then obviously something drastic has to be done. And I know definitely that there is no way those IDP camps would have been set up for the purpose of allowing all manners of criminal activities, prostitution, you know, drug peddling, to take place in the camp. It was supposed to be a place of temporary refuge, temporary, emphasize on the word temporary refuge for people who had lost their homes. Some of a lot of all of them victims of the insurgency are going on in that part of the country. But it is not a failure of the people in the camp. It is a failure of government and the government institutions. It is a failure of the inability to live up to, you know, to live up to their building. They had a duty. They have the responsibility to set up that camp, like I said, for a temporary shelter just for a period of time on failure. The situation that brought up, you know, the setting up of the camp in the first place is that way. And that is to route out the insurgents that drove them away from their homes, you know, before this ago can now go back to their homes. So their lives have been turned upside down. And again, the deep poverty that is going on in the camps, the fact that there have been stories about mismanagement of funds. And so you find people who have been displaced in their, you know, villages, and they find having a very harrowing experiences in those camps. Many of them. In fact, there's nobody that want to be in a camp. So they are in that camp most reluctantly. And what you would expect is to have at least some basic minimum, you know, level of living standard that can at least make the lives of people a little bit manageable. But that is not what we are seeing in the camp. There has been absolute neglect in that place. And then of course, with the stories of mismanagement of funds, you know, funds that are supposed to be committed to making the camp, you know, a better run place, disappearing into the pockets of state and non-state actors. So this is what is responsible for what is going on. And it's not just peculiar to Nigeria, really. If you look at the Middle East, where you had, you know, camps, you know, Palestinian people who have been displaced, you find this kind of social anomalies, if the camps are not well taken care of. And I think that that is just what the issue is. Okay. Let's bring in Abubakar Musa Haganabu, who is a news editor of Radio Nigeria in Meduguri. Sara and I, good morning. Can you hear us? Yes. I can hear you. Morning. All right. So thanks for joining us. Kindly paints, you know, the clearest picture of what might be going on with, you know, this story. The government is accusing, you know, the, what he is saying, that these camps are turning into something else entirely. But there's also backlash, you know, from setting quarters, you know, with regards to the move or the decision to shut down these camps. Kindly share with us what exactly is going on. You know, what is really going on here, like in his governor, Ghanu Omar Azulim's new message, in his new message, he said that his administration strategy is to strengthen resilience in the bold step that his government took in closing down the internally displaced camps. That is the idea he's embarrassed to ask the whole. And although the government have explained in details reason behind the action for the pleasure of the camp, that's one, the government closed the IDP camps to clean up the places and give them dignity as well as purpose. Then leaving the IDP in the camps in the state, I mean, leaving the IDPs is not what the state is used to be or what the state of the people are. So therefore, the governor believed that a safer life of dignity is right for all citizens of, you know, indeed Nigerians. Then you find out that in the camps that the IDP camps have become a slum, where all kinds of vices were happening, including prostitution, drug, robbery, in some cases and you find out that for the fact that Azulim also said no responsible leadership will allow people to live an undignified life under its watch. So there are a lot of things happening. These people are farmers. They're rare animals. They have a sense of belonging. And now they have been dragged away from their places. And this camp is not a permanent camp. It's visually temporary. So the governor now has created a ministry which is committed of reconstruction, we have a mutation and resettlement since the government of Kashim Shatima. So now the ministry is responsible for all the IDPs. And now it has created a lot of ways for them to have a sense of belonging. Before the closure of the camps, the governor gave them each 100,000, then their spouse, 50,000, 50,000, that is a startup that would take them to their localities. After they have gone back to their localities, they went there himself and shared the food directly to them and provided security in the affected areas. That is what is the really picture of the reason behind taking them back to their localities because they have even become musons in the society. You cannot sit outside and be discussing. You find children of two years, three years, four, five, six, seven years, running about begging the women, the men, all of them begging despite the effort of SEMA, NEMA, the I NGOs, the local NGOs that are providing food, money, and they have given them a lot of pockets, they have given them machines, granting machines, sewing machines, a lot of things. The NGOs and the government, the federal government itself, the minister of humanitarian affairs and disaster management, have also done its own part. So these people need to have a sense of belonging. They need to go back to their localities, go back to their farms, as the president rightly said that we have to go back to our farms. And now you can see in Bournemouth State, we have not, in Bournemouth State entirely, we have not had a period where food is costly at this time. Why? Because the local government are not existing. We used to forget about the closure of the borders and everything. No, these people did, yes? Okay, so let's also bring in Mr Achudy at this point in time. Abubakar Aruna is saying that the government has made some sort of, you know, provision for the people to get back. And the question now is, do you think that, you know, what actually cost the displacements of the people of Bournemouth State have been sorted out? We're talking about the insecurity that cost them, you know, the houses, there have been displaced of, you know, the source of livelihood. I mean, farming is a great one for all of them. Do you think that, you know, with the 7,000 or 10,000 and 5,000 that's been handed them, is that enough to take care of them? No, that is to transport them to their localities. 100,000 for the male, then the female, 50,000 to transport them back to their localities. You know, all the tents the NGOs gave them, they sold everything out and they now move back to their localities with heavy securities around them. So where are they moving back to? Where are they moving back to? I mean, has the government made provision for houses? They have built a lot of houses in almost all the local government that they have transferred them back to their localities. They have reconstructed the buildings, they have built the ones that have been destroyed. So the people will now go in and move back into their homes and have a sense of belonging. That's what the government is talking about right now, it's doing. OK, so I was... All right then. Yeah, let me put it this way. Because it would appear that what is going on is that, and there is a disconnection or a contradiction really, if you look at the statement from the government and then... Because there are two issues right now. We have been told that the camps have been closed because of all manner of sound reactivities that are going on, vices and so on. And then of course, if that is the case, government also has a duty to restore some kind of sanity. If that is the case, you understand? But now the problem is that the other issue is that houses have been prepared for them. Their localities have been taken care of, and so they can now safely go back to their place. And if that is the case then, it is not because of the vices that are going on in the camps. It is simply because they have made their places safer. That is why they are going back, not because of the vices. Because from the very beginning it was clear, from the very beginning it was clear that putting people in IDP camps is a temporary situation. Because until the problems that led to them going to the IDP in the first place is taking care of them, I don't know, I can't say for sure, but there are all kinds of manner of reports we are having. My colleague over there is in Boronau State, so he has a better picture of what is going on. He has a better picture of the level of security or insecurity in Boronau State. But we know that the whole of Boronau State is not exactly free from their trauma tax by insurgents. And don't forget that it's not as safe at every particular point in time insurgents are occupying places. There are some places they occupy. At other times they raid some places and then leave. So if you take these people back to these other places, you go back to their localities, what is the guarantee that they would be protected at all times against these insurgents? And that is the problem. Because you have insurgents that raid even heavily fortified military insurgents and kill soldiers in the process. So what of unarmed civilians who cannot defend themselves? And that is the biggest issue. So what kind of guarantees are the government... I mean, if the government has put if all these facilities in place, I mean, it's a very good thing. He says that houses have been provided. I was thinking from the initial statement he made that it's just 100,000, 50,000 and the money for, you know, to go back to their locality. But if houses have been rebuilt and given and they're being given to these people, it's a wonderful thing. For the people who perpetually live under fear, that is the issue. So are there guarantees and that is where I have my doubt because most parts of the country, especially the North, have not been protected by the security forces. Whether it is Cardona, it is Amphara, it is Castena, then of course the epicenter of insurgents in Bruno State. So I'd like to ask Aruna at this point, how safe is Bruno and, you know, Bruno State and the communities that this internally displaced persons who've been integrated into? Yes, you know, we are talking about those that have been integrated. Oh, she's asking how safe is Bruno currently and those communities where these persons are being sent back to? It's safe as of now. There is no any current, the one that has been some few months ago at Ascra. After that one hour, there is no attack in the localities that these IDPs have been moved to. There were no single attack because they were heavily protected by the militias, by the security agencies. So there is no attack in any of the in any of the localities these people have, these IDPs have been moved back to their places. That is the reality behind it. Bruno is safe. Okay, well, you know that of course, you know, we will continue to follow up, you know, and know exactly how safe it is really because the military cannot be there, you know, permanently at some point they would have to also That's the point, yes. You have to leave. That is why the military is, the military are now moving into the forest of some beside killing them in thousands. Well, you're on ground, so you would have a clearer picture of what exactly is going on. But I also, you know, saw that there was some outcry from international NGOs and, you know, even the local NGOs, the governor also had to approach them and ask them to stop giving help or assistance to these persons. Where do you think there might be, you know, some misunderstanding between the governor and the NGOs? You know, the way the NGOs give them food, I mean, aid, it's not, it's improper. And the governor has already established those localities. He has given them everything. So now it's left for the state government to take care of its own people. That is the real point behind it. Okay, Mr. Achude, can you also quickly respond to that and also talk about life after returning back to your community? These persons, according to the report, you know, he mentioned also, you know, that they were given 100,000, some of them 50,000. You know, but can it be that easy to simply reintegrate these people back to home, you know, and back to their businesses, back to their farms? When, you know, like Haruna also mentioned, while they were even in the camps and being trained and being given machines and assistance from the NGOs, they still were, you know, drug peddling and, you know, prostituting, according to the governor. So, Mr. Achude- Yeah. You know, poverty brings all kinds of social issues, social dislocations, you know, and all that. So I think that is what was going on in the camps. I know that it is better to teach somebody how to fish than to give the person fish. And I want to believe that that should be the overall objective of, you know, what is presently, you know, going on. I mean, it's also a very good thing what the government is trying to do. If they have looked at all of, you know, all the elements that are involved in this, my worry really is remains the issue of security. These people have been traumatized. They have lost a lot. They have lost so much. They have lost loved ones. They have lost all their lives, you know, earnings. And many of them are killed in their farms. Does the government have the capacity? Because the governor himself has been attacked twice, you know, was saved by the military in Bruno State. And so that is my worry, that the government does not have the capacity to permanently protect these people, you know. So they must look away because it will not, it will be a very terrible thing if maybe the next few weeks or months or days we hear that some of the people who have gone back once more have been attacked. So the most important thing is that they keep them safe and once they can achieve that, then they now begin to look for how to reintegrate this people back again into normal life. How, you know, to get the best out of them. Some of them are professional farmers. They have no other thing they are doing except farming. So they need to get them back to the farms. But we also remember that at the time, maybe something last year, about over a hundred their farmers were killed in one fell swoop. And you know, so the issue of security continues to dominate. And about like my brother there has said, there has not been an attack after the last major attack. Is it the attacks here? So we hope that that situation we will resist. All right. Chike Chude, thank you very much. We of course would be bringing you back as quickly as possible because these are very, very vital issues. You know, like you've also mentioned what happens next after being reintegrated into their societies. These are Nigerians and their lives matter. Moving forward, of course, they are very, very important also to the rest of us. And we hope that they will be able to get their lives back. And also the discussion on justice for the victims of these attacks for many, many years now of lost family, lost friends, lost their livelihoods, they still would be seeking justice somehow, some way. But we would of course have to wrap up here. I will become Musaharuna Buu. Thank you also for sharing with us from Meduguri this morning. Okay, all right. Thank you. Mr. Chude, all right. Stay with us. We'll take a short break. When we come back, we're moving into talking about governors and the alleged misuse of security votes. CERAP, of course, is asking the Nigerian government to start up a probe. And that comes up right next.