 And we're live from the MIT Media Lab. And yet, not really at the Media Lab for purposes of how it is we're who we are for this meetup. We're really, today, all legal hackers. And this is a conversation about legal hacking among the Massachusetts legal hackers and the newly born, a newly minted, research tribal, park legal hackers and friend and colleague, Neenakal Bride, among the first of a new generation of legal engineers in her day job. And I'm Dazza Greenwood, the hopefully soon-to-be outgoing chair of Massachusetts legal hackers. I'm Chris Wanlein, the soon-to-be incumbent chair of Massachusetts legal hackers. Fantastic. And we just thought we'd have this conversation with Nina, who's fixing to do a hackathon on a really cool hack and kind of talk it through. And we're thinking, well, why not do it on a hangout so that perhaps others that were interested in the topics could listen to it later? Also, we have so many cool conversations that we can't ever find again. We thought, well, let's give this one a shot of being findable. So with that, you want to tell us what the idea is? And Chris and I can help talk it through with you. Sure. So I learned about blockchain as a tool for crowdfunding a while back. And I, as a practicing lawyer, had this drive that I really thought that it needed to be used at the community level for small business crowdfunding. Because in my practice as a lawyer, those tools just did not exist, in a way, for that really big segment of my client base, as it did for this other segment of my client base that could afford any tools that they wanted. So over the past couple of years, I've been working on developing smart contracts, helping harden the technology and my day job. But I've been watching the crowdfunding laws evolve in the United States, waiting for the regulatory time to be right. So I was lucky for my state to be the first one this year, North Carolina, to enact SEC Exemption 147A. Boom. Boom. That's what we've been waiting for. So that is the key to being able to use the internet freely to advertise, to raise money. Some of the earlier crowdfunding regulations and legislation didn't really recognize the fact that the internet didn't have straight state lines. And so we've updated the law, but it's got to be implemented in each state that offers crowdfunding. Anyway. Only application of some kind to, wait a minute, wait a minute. So I have been pushing this forward. It's sort of a matter of willpower as much of anything else, because part of the problem is in the way small business crowdfunding would be done, there is limited transferability of the shares. So right now, all of the excitement about blockchain is in capital markets. Well, if we're talking about doing crowdfunding for people who may not be producing the most liquid tradable shares, that doesn't really get people excited either, you know, just to write a check to do something like that. And that might not be the best way to achieve what we want it to anyway, because what we want is for anybody to be able to do it and people to do a better job than I'm doing, hacking it out on the side from my day job, right? So I went through a couple of mistakes trying to figure out how to get here. But I then decided what I needed to do was take advantage of the fact that I live in a town full of people who like to do civic hacking, are leaders in civic hacking, and I live in a state that's a leader in open legal data. So I decided that based on my experience kind of helping people put these blocks together to make applied blockchain solutions design, that what I would do is work on an open source GitHub repo that would give other people tools to execute interest rate crowdfunding. However, they sell fake, because they're going to want to do it some different way for me, I am sure. The other thing is preach, preach. That's the gospel right there, this volunteer motivated civic participatory building culture that we're part of. And it's just music to my ears to hear you say that Nina. Yeah, so yeah, the next person is going to want to do it differently from me is the first thing. And the second is there's going to be a lot of different kinds of evolution of this technology. We want the lawyers to be able to help the companies, not try it. I mean, so right now there's a real barrier to even aside from not only small business, which is going to be helped by this crowdfunding tool in the long run, there's a real barrier to businesses getting the legal advice they would need in order to take advantage of these crowdfunding tools. I've been parsing statutes for a very long time. It was really difficult and took me a whole lot of legwork and a whole lot of conversations to figure out how it is you could configure this thing to execute it. And so yeah, I want other people to be able to do it. And the result I want it to be is that it spurs an ecosystem where more and more people are just able to crowdfund a business in a way that is sustainable. And eventually, what I like about this to do it in blockchain is that gives it a way of not only taking advantage of all these legal tech operations that we're thinking about, but it articulates risk-compliant methods to bring some of that blockchain liquidity from capital markets all the way down to Main Street, which is because when I got it, so here's where I'm going to be a little bit silly in Southern, when I first heard about blockchain and crowdfunding. I'm like, if y'all bring the tools of capital markets down to me and my girlfriends and the fundraising capability that we have, the world is going to change. And so I'm just going to execute as much as I can to help other people do it. All right. Amen. That's so thrilling. So my. That's what that is. So I'm sorry, bring it home. So yeah, so I have a link I want to, I guess I want to share here to this repo. Does it relate to? It does relate to that. That's our party tomorrow. Research Triangle Park. That's us. Party, in this case, tomorrow, because it's party time and legal hackers to do a barn raising. And what do you use for a blockchain thing? A token party tokens in this case for the game arcade. It's so meta, Nina, so meta. The token buys you an experience. That's for sure. So well, OK, are you ready to screen share? Oh, I can screen share. I had actually shared the links here in the group. But you don't have to. Why don't you? Just so because, you know. Then I will, OK, screen share. I'll share. Yeah. And then we can see what we see. So there's two things on the screen sharing I wanted to say that I think I heard, which will maybe give access to unleash the apparently infinite energy of Chris's, you know, like hackability and hacky sensibility. OK, here we go. So first things first. Oh, hello. Gets up. NGK 207. And this is NC. How do you make that so it doesn't? Yep. Oh, there we go. NC Thunder hack. Beautiful. OK, so that's where people can find it. And NC Paces hacked as the statute. So, OK. Thank you. And one thing I want to mention is as a lawyer, this was so hard for me to put an imperfect work, incomplete work. I mean, this is an ego thing, you know? And we beat each other down from the day we passed the bar exam not to do that. You're an example for all of us. Incomplete work. Yep, you're an example for all of us. And I remember when you made a pilgrimage to MIT not long ago, a year and a half ago or something. And we sat and we hacked for like three days on promissory notes, I think, and blockchain digital signature hacks and dual integration kind of stuff. And our work was primarily imperfect, as I recall, because we were doing something out of nothing that no one ever thought of before half the time. And the courage of being able to come and do that in the fullness of time resulted in breakthroughs with no budget, whatsoever, almost no budget, with lots of people helping now. And it's the courage of the first draft and even more courageous to be able to share it in the open. That's part of the gestalt of this culture. So I applaud you for doing this. Thank you. Because some of this is ugly. Yep, it gets better, I think, is the mandatory line. Tell me if I got this right. The two things I heard you say is number one, that you want to create a mechanism that to some extent, to a meaningful extent, implements the correctly, like the requirements and the constraints of the North Carolina state-based crowdfunding. That's a legal hack. And that makes a lot of sense. And then number the second major thing you said that I hear in a special way about something's been said that is buildable, is basically that part of your motivation is your girlfriends and so many innovators in your community in the state can then have access to capital in a legit way, in a crowdfunding way, under the state law that they don't have right now. Lost to us are so many great projects, including the one you're doing, where you're gritting it out on this. But this could be the type of project that's fundraisable under your state law. And so I hear that second one as a good candidate for success metrics or some sort of measurable criteria to know we will know that we have succeeded if or when. And then something like this or that type of project is able to use these tools to achieve some outcome, such as to do the raises of that amount of money in that context, something like that. And then that squishy, it's not completely buildable, but I kind of picked those two things in particular up from what you said. And can you tell me, did I kind of get it right? Or could you add modified delete, whatever I just said is needed? Sure. Well, so one of the things about it is that what I wanted to shed a light on is some of the information from the diverse subject matter expertise that has to come into executing any of these more complex solutions. And so any of these legal tech solutions that we're talking about require us to bring together a bunch of different things in collateral from legal forms, legal scholarship, technology, and also the business information and policy information that makes all of it relevant. And so my desire was to get that gathered in a place that would make it easy for others to build blockchain-based solutions, because what I want to do is really make the whole process more seamless and accessible for everyone. So there's this idea of advanced process engineering that everybody needs 80% of the same thing for some of these masks. And so right now, what folks really need, at least from my perspective, is some way to collect all these ideas together so they can draw from it themselves. Because I don't really want to decide for you whether you want to use x-blockchain or y-blockchain or this kind of currency or that kind of currency. I'm really focused on making it easier to operate digital technology that serves community access to capital. OK, got it. So that is a question. I mean, it's sort of like. Look at your loss about making, enabling financial technology to address a certain population. I think sometimes people in the space, including myself, sometimes get a little overcome with the applications that you can have with blockchain. And there's a phrase that we like to use here now called blockchain because blockchain. Right. It's the overhype. Yeah, but I do think there are some particular use cases here where you're talking about distributing assets, voting rights, all kinds of things that do lend well to a distributed system that can capture who owns what essentially. And the number one thing is being that early in a project like this, you really want to just kind of focus on the team. And together you guys will hone the idea. And it seems as though we had a discussion about how you're involved with Code for America in your local community, which is phenomenal. And I think those guys, yeah, that's actually, I think, how we met originally. And so those guys are a wonderful resource from a just source-of-the-earth kind of thing, digital natives also, a lot of them, and the ones that sort of took it on are now pretty pro. They can help facilitate some of the more technical concerns. And actually, I would imagine, as long as I would advise you not to position it as a blockchain project. Instead, it is a project that involves blockchain because for some very good reasons. I think a lot of them will just kind of jump at the bit to kind of get involved and stick their teeth in into a solidity and a bunch of other sort of smart contract-based technologies. And really, it's in the combination of your expertise and your skillset that you guys will really find a really great solution. I think you really need to think about whether or not you want to, so essentially, you do, to an extent, want to replicate what's already out there. You just want to do it in a way that's distributed. If I'm not mistaken. So there are platforms already that kind of do some of the stuff that you're talking about. One major question is, is this for fundraising or is this for pre-sales? Is it more of a Kickstarter? Is it more of a GoFundMe kind of thing? And I think by sort of working through some of those things with your developers, which is part of the challenge in any team and executing a project that's pretty communication. So just figuring getting everyone on the same page is going to be huge for that. And so there's a bunch of exercises that we can talk about and talk through to sort of get everyone on the same page. But kicking off, personally, I love the stuff you've done with GitHub. And I really applaud you for stepping out of your comfort zone and starting to meddle with that a little bit. I think it's that's ultimately the medium through which a lot of devs love to communicate. So that's great. I would definitely also encourage you to design something, create a document more for your team that's going to sort of more of like a narrative like format. So I take a little bit of narratives from how Amazon and the visas team have constructed sort of like high overarching sort of one to three page documents that kind of summarize pretty much everything you need to know about this project. And so getting everyone on the same page, engaging with the right folks, and just starting to experiment and just being aware that most likely your first solution is not the correct one. That's pretty crucial. And just if you guys can work through the pitfalls as a team, I think this is a really phenomenal project for legal hackers in general. And using the technology to then spread these insights that you've gained is a wonderful way to apply some of these tools. So yeah, there's a lot of legs here. But obviously, your key thing here is just to state out your assumptions and share them with your team and talk through them as a team. And yeah, give me the other. Yeah, I think that's great. So listen to Chris. And also, that's your go-to for Massachusetts Legal Hackers. I guess there's something out today that specifically I was thinking the back of my head. I can think of any examples of times when this sort of thing has worked successfully. And one thing that I thought worked pretty well was a multi, I think it was going to be one night, and then it became three nights. I think it ended up being seven through the late spring and summer of a run of a series of Massachusetts Legal Hackers meetings to create the digital signature hack on a promissory note. Or no, I'm sorry, on a bill of sales for a car. So it was actually exactly the thing that we initially did a proof of concept up together a year and a half ago. And then it had real legs and we ended up having people that wanted to keep working on it. And so we kind of like actually reluctantly, in my part, but I said, we'll do it again and again because I don't like having ongoing meetings for no reason. It becomes a zombie. But this happened, you know, and people wanted to come together and had an end of, we had a goal to try to do a mock, a little bit of a mock trial. Like how would we know if we got, you know, a signature? Well, one way to test it would be, well, you could show it to a mock trial and try to see if it's admissible, I guess. And how would you know if you have a crowdfunding thing? Well, you could see some of your friends' businesses were things they saw. So it kind of had a kind of a goal of some type. And it had a pretty, it had a reasonable run and people that were doing it. The other aspect of it is actually we started, we kicked it off with Toronto Legal Hackers and Amy Tarahar up there. And some great people who talked us through like some software code that they had that was similar, like adjacent purpose and Ethereum, it was called on stone paper. And like, you know, we tried to work on that and exactly as Chris said, like the first thing did not pan out and none of us imagined it necessarily would. So we did a good spirit that was, like they were more mature devs than me there that were like, just remember it as probably won't pan out. So that was good and there's no one lost face and we ended up doing other stuff. But starting with other legal hackers and sharing ideas was invaluable that were well aligned. Tony Lye also in San Francisco Legal Hackers was very invaluable at certain points too. And we just got on Hangouts with them, put them on the big screen from time to time. And that was another thing you have community that's broader that may be good and certain aspects potentially. But then the other thing I'd say is something just that Chris said like earlier, but he didn't mention just now, it was implied in his comments about the team, but he said specifically like the most important things to kind of build community and to have a thing that has a pulse. And so like code for Boston is terrific. It's like, if it's Tuesday night, it's hack night with pizza at, you know, fourth floor game, which innovation center. And same thing I noticed with an NC code for NC or whatever the brigade, the code for America Brigade has a regular pulse. So the more you have like a pulse, maybe the better so you can build community in some sense of regularity for so long as it makes sense. Like, you know, don't drag it out forever. But I think that first thing you said made a lot of sense tactically. So that's all I've got on that, just had a super high level. And then I've got one or two tactical things after if the conversation goes that way, like little hacks that we did in the media lab and an earlier version of this, like there's one or two things maybe we could pull out that you might want to take going forward. But anyway, what are your impressions of like the things we just said and, you know, what do you reckon? I reckon all of those things, that's excellent advice. So I started mostly with a legal hacker team because I figured that as far as, I had a multidisciplinary problem on my hands that we just had, we had to knock out the stuff that was in the lawyer's primary wheelhouse to tee up some actionable things to do with the developers once we came, you know, we were ready to actually ask for their help instead of just, you know, kind of going down and learning and making friends and understanding how things are done. And so we've spent a lot of time, you know, there are a lot of really innovative lawyers around here. I'm really lucky to have gotten a team of people who has been willing to give their time to help me produce these things I've shared with you. But going forward, we need to be able to, you know, broaden our group of people collaborating and making this happen because there's only so much of willpower and get gridding it out, I can do because, you know, this is a network phenomenon we're trying to create. And just to double-check, like the, so the initial stuff was that in like the forms directory and like figuring out like what the forms for the different roles were or like, what was like the main contribution for the legal part that you feel like in the initial hacks you got together. So I'd say gathering up legal research. Let me share, I'm gonna share my screen with you again then. Okay, so here what we've got in, we started out with some crowdfunding forms and these are not ready, but the goal is to have these all be machine-readable or have a North Carolina SAFE and a North Carolina promissory note, machine-readable. That's getting real. Yeah, and ready to go. You know, by, you know, we started this project in mid-September, you know, we want to like say that we have gotten our first Lego kit together by, you know, Thanksgiving, right? So we should have the NC SAFE ready to go with NC promissory note in here. Also you see like some exemplars that the North Carolina Secretary of State and then other lawyers, this is a Cooley's staff. Like they've done an open source repo for a SAFE agreement for future tokens. But then some forms that the North Carolina Secretary of State recommended to me. And then for legal research resources, I've pulled together a whole lot of various things from different sort of either really academic, nerdy, legal tech stuff that once you combine them all together, you know, that's still gonna require a little bit of drawing out the legal rationale, but it's all there in those documents. You just gotta do, you know, just gotta make the narrative. So I included, Chris, you were talking about, I have, I should talk about what this is about. And so I wanted to make sure I did that and I did it in first person. And one of the things that I wanted to make sure I put on this page when I talked about what I'm doing from first person is that I'm not really talking about ICOs or token sales or any of the things that are really sexy and popular right now and people are worried about it being a bubble. I'm talking about automating operations in order to make these inclusive blockchain applications that we're talking about. So there's a little detail that I shout out to DASA for turning me on to the Code for America folks. And then here's like my really ugly draft of white paper. It's just terrible. But I had to like rip off the Band-Aid and put it out there because I think it will be important going forward if another lawyer wants to skill up to offer these services to their clients over in Greensboro, putting that kind of synthesis together for them is really gonna help small businesses get the lawyers they need. So I need some tech exemplars. I've written a couple, but I need to think about them a little bit more to see if they, I think they're the right kind of exemplars. Because I don't really need tokens, like really, I don't know. I'm just still thinking on that part. So a couple of like super simple tactical things in GitHub, which is, I wish Christian Smith was here, partly. He's the like maestro of open source community building in GitHub and how to really just finesse it perfectly. But one of the things it's worth looking at, maybe we could get good at this together actually, because he looks at my repos and just laughs. Basically, you know how it's set up because it's just like flailing around. But basically, there's like a kind of like a way to do the read me file and its purpose that it serves. And I think there's more than one opinion on it, but I like Christians a lot. And then there's a second thing that I noticed from doing standards, like legal standards and tech standards and just insisting that we move it to GitHub in many cases. And then as we're doing that, and then as we're looking at how to do issues and who's contributing, there's a big question with standards about, did they sign up the contribute contribution agreement? You don't wanna get patent or weird stuff in there for an open standard. And if it's in GitHub, it's convenient in a lot of ways, but who's doing what? And did that work its way in the standard? We felt like we had it locked down in one case with just who had rights to merge pull requests and so forth. But then there was issues, like we really wanted to keep issues open to let a broader community look at our stuff and propose things, but then if they propose things and they worked its way into the standard and they didn't sign a contributor agreement or there wasn't one of the normal processes of the standards organization, people worried. So as I was kind of running this down because I was the one advocating remaining in GitHub basically, I discovered that this is like so many of these things like a well-solved problem that coders have solved, but that we just, I guess that required some investigation to discover. And so basically what it is is there's a magic file that you call contributing.md, all caps. It's like license that shows up a certain way and read me search up a certain way. If you have read me in there, it will display at the bottom and everyone knows to look for the read me. License, you know, the look for license. There's a new one, it's contributing. And then there's a kind of format it follows, but in there, that's a place for number one, you would indicate like what the deal is, like if it's open source and then if people have given a sense, giving up rights by contributing, you make that known there. And then you can have it pop up automatically when someone does a, like makes an issue, even if they're not in your team, if there's a contributing file, I'll pull it up. And it's, you know, I would prefer to have like an affirmative click on something, but it's close, you know, they're on notice. But the main thing is just like the real thing that if you click around and look at examples, that's where you, one of the best places to do what Chris said, which is, as for people kind of say, these are the assumptions of the project, here's how you contribute to the project. We have a weekly meeting. We kind of like, we do pull requests or we have a wiki for this or however the culture is as it evolves, that's, you write it and contributing. So, you know, who knew, but it turns out that that's what like the good projects do and people know to look for that and it works well. It kind of separates it from the... Okay, thank you. I mean, actually, I was probably gonna ask you that question sometime next week, right? So that's where we discovered and it seems good to me to do that. It seems really good actually. I'm gonna, and I'm guilty of not using it. I sometimes think I forget that that exists or I just cut the corner, but that's probably a good practice. You should maybe even have a canonical legal hackers like Project Fulver at some point where just like... Fabulous. This and get in the right track. That's a good idea. Yeah, I've been slowly trying to get my lawyer team, like just pushing them in to get up with me, but they're very, very slowly coming in. Because you know, like the first time you go on to that place, particularly if you're a digital non-native, it is so intimidating. Yeah, it is. And it's not, yeah. It is. It's not made for non-coders. For non-coders. And like, I actually learned how to do it at Code for America, finally. Like the thing that was breakthrough wasn't the documentation, let me tell you, in those days, but it was like some person that did Massachusetts general laws actually in a couch TV, just like on a lark. Like, so I was trying to figure out how to do this, but I couldn't do like some, like foundational thing. And it just kind of like just showed me. That's one of the beautiful things about getting together in a local community that it's why I think legal hackers work so well in Code for America. It's like, it's a meetup group. Like we may have lots of different ways to do legal hackers around the world, but one thing everyone knows and agrees on is you don't have a legal hacker, unless you have a meetup page. And then like James and her fellow or somebody kind of puts you on the list and that's fundamentally what we are. But there's a lot of wisdom there. It means that now people together, locally together, can get together in person. So much happens there at that time. How, you know, propagating knowledge of how to use get hubs and how you'll use it different from how others use it really happens. So. One thing I wanted to say that I think would be, I have found a useful way to onboard a couple of lawyers that I'm working with the GitHub. There, the little bit of the carrot is that if you begin to, you decide, okay, I want to make some machine readable legal documents. They're not ready to down. I want to make some machines readable legal documents. That sounds like a great idea. We all do. Yeah. Some people say that. Okay, just assume somebody says that. They'll say we know. Right. But so say you're going to be teaching yourself how to work and mark down. Cause you know, lawyers don't work and mark down, but that would be step one, right? Yes. Or at least learn that kind of thing. The great thing about the GitHub online interface is that you can teach yourself mark down just working in it. And so it is really an easy teaching tool. And so we've been kind of working on iterating the documents for organizations and things like that. And so we'll get those in the repo in the next few days. Yeah. Love it. While I love and share enthusiasm in GitHub, I also believe in lowering cognitive load as much as possible in all things, sometimes to extremes. Oh yeah, sometimes I go for the load. I love it. Well, it's good to start ambitious. But yeah, I think in terms of just the project and its success, which I absolutely want to see, I would just encourage you to. It sounds like you have a great group of folks with the Code for America people. It sounds like you have a great group of folks on the lawyer-slash-business side. I would highly recommend that you engage with an individual or group of designers who are not as much worried about how things look but how things work for humans, for people, as that is often an overlooked aspect of executing a project is getting them in really as early as possible to understand how you can make it usable for your target population. One thing that Chris is so good at, like when we're in these meetings and we're trying to figure out what to hack or how to do it, being able to draw and talk to people and create human narratives in a design-oriented approach is just invaluable. Our whole group got so much better when you started coming to it. Frankly, having that kind of talent really isn't valuable and convinced now. Dad's actually hit the nail around the head. It's really about building a narrative. You want to build a story of a user who's either trying to raise money or sell something and someone who has the assets that they are willing to invest in whenever the venture is and being able to tell the narrative, as though it's a story, as though it's a book of some sort. Hopefully it's a picture book that provides a book. Because then if you can break down your story that way or your stories of different user types, developers actually, in a lot of cases, prefer those kinds of things. Not only do they prefer those kinds of things, they require those kinds of things. I mean, good ones also are the front, right? I want you to articulate things for me and sufficiently nuanced words that I know how to apply the law to that. That is not how developers want me to produce my specifications for them. So yeah, learning flamethrower is an awesome skill. Yes, Swimlane especially. Someone might guess. And most of the, well, I feel like I don't know all of the visual methods you have, but a lot of what Chris does, it works well. Beyond the Swimlane kind of process-oriented role-based procedural diagramming, which is practically schematic, it's also very human stuff, like the persona and the point of view and these little clouds of conceptual things, like the goals and the objectives and the priorities. And it's not all linear and buildable. Like a lot of it's not that. And maybe it isn't logically point A to point B, but it's invaluable stuff to get people on the same page and in sync so we can all really contribute and work together. Yeah, I've got a pile of those. I need to load up in this recode in the next day or two about this process. And I've got one final little hack for you. I don't know if you saw it in the thing that we did before. And I'm not even sure. Like crowdfunding and just curious is not my gig. I've just tried to learn about it just literally to try to see if I can be constructive for what you're doing. But when I was looking at how to do this stuff, and in particular, and this is partly code for America thing, like how to work with regulators on a thing. But in a unique role, like as attorneys and as business people or relationship with the regulators is, I won't say adversarial, but it's all business. It's arms length and it's regulator regulated is like the fundamentally like the role. There's another role that you can use. It's rare. And it has to be treated with complete respect like a medically sealed from all other context of one's life. But it's the role of like the citizen's civic volunteer that's kind of coming by as part of like, I don't know, like, like someone that helps clean the streets or volunteers at the lemonade stand and that kind of stuff. And just so happens with your coders. That's the code for America stick and a few others as well. And so when they get together and talk to the regulators and they have all kinds of reach in different organizations and cities and states and federal agencies, it's a completely different role. And it's one where it's possible because of the lack of conflict of interest and the nature of it and the transparency of it and everything else to engage in it like more of like on a partner kind of level and then not to expect them to make unofficial ruling or anything like that, but more sort of like, I don't know, on a friendly basis trying to be constructive. So in that spirit, I was kind of think like what, how would one do that in like a state securities regulator kind of context? And I just poked around and poked around and poked around. What I finally came up with was, okay, well, one way to know that the regulators are alike and actually prefer to communicate whether like a technical implementation or a business method is appropriate under their particular statutes and laws and the current interpretations and policies and everything is sort of the no action letter that's like kind of SEC thing. And then I looked down further. So in theory, if you had a new company with a new technology, you could request a no action letter and they would review all the details. And if they felt it was compliant, they would give you this letter. You make no actual letter request and then if you're lucky, you get a response that says we will take no action like this, you know, I don't, I feel like I would stop short of saying this is in compliance, but they say we'll take no action like lawyers. And then I found out that like state regulators also do no action letters. I found a bunch of North Carolina ones and some like Colorado and Massachusetts ones. And then what I was thinking is what if at some point when you're getting ready for people to use this out in the field in some way, one of the things people hack is you got together including a bunch of lawyers that know that you've done this in your jurisdiction and did like draft model requests of your methods, your tools or with an actual issuer that might do it. And the thing was without practicing law somehow that you kind of reflect what would be a sufficient amount of the facts of how would you request a no action letter? And then, you know, people could do their draft no action letters and that could be in the repo with the rest of it. And that would just be, and then we got to learn from our no action letter requests and get better and better templates and the regulators could say that's okay, but you're missing facts. And then people could say thank you. We'd love to include more facts. We'll put in the template for everybody. Yeah. So the thing I love about like interacting with regulators is I've got a good one to regulate, to interact with, right? Do I not have like a good secretary state to end? So the thing about is, you know, I told you how when our crowdfunding regulation went into play, I was like, I do not know how to use this because it was very hard to understand in the intervening months, they have continually upgraded not only their open source advice about how to use the statute, but upgraded their technology. So now if you want to apply for approval of a funding portal or a crowdfunding raise, you can apply through the website online using a PDF application. So it is, you know, as fast as you and I can come up with ways to interact with the regulator, my regulator is moving so fast that by the time we've finished with our legal hat, they might have something, they might have a race car going, right? So. Better. That's good. So race the regulator. Yeah, you know when I was little, just fresh out of law school and I was trying to do like, like trying to like do electronic things in a state government. My lead, one of my key leaders was Elaine Marshall who was just like so so and so wise about how to do change management, how to get multiple states together, operating goodwill. And I seem to remember like the person I was working was a different party, but you know at a certain level, we want businesses to be licensed. Like we want economy to function. We want public administration that works effectively. And she was always a roll up your sleeves and sensible as a day is long, effective, and she was never afraid of technology. Not that she's the best technologist in the world, but she understood it was part of how you do your job way back then. And no wonder she's come up with that you're so great now. Like, gosh, I almost feel like we ought to just get in there and do it for a lane, you know? But I'm a big fan too. I'm glad you brought up that aspect. Well, I mean, it is the Secretary of State's office is the regulator here and you deal with the securities department. And you know, they're really good. Can you hear all my dogs barking in the background? Well, aggressive. Well, I know, like that we need to do another one. We're like, it's mandatory having dogs and the cats on your lap. And then we could just like kind of, anyway, go on. Everybody just came home from baseball practice. Okay, so yeah, so I think we're moving along. We're gonna share our work product with some members of the community who will either be able to help or maybe be able to, you know, either as a lawyer apply some of this work in their practice. Also, you know, we've got a lot of businesses that are interested in using the technology to kind of get this stuff started, so. Amen. That's where we're going. Well, so you know, of course, I guess in closing, I should do a kind of a plug. But you know, we're doing the MIT Legal Forum on AI and block chain at the end of the month on October 30 and 31. And we're fixing with our friends and colleagues at Legal Hackers, who's gonna be a chair by then, and a whole bunch of other folks across the law and your policy and, you know, technology and some scholars to convene and look at, you know, deliberate transition in the law to a digital footing. Part of that is understanding how to re-statute and how to compose, like, you know, code, like you're doing literally with a state crowdfunding statute, which hopefully be a template that other people in other states could do and your processes template. I wonder if one of the breakout groups that we do, we're doing a sort of bankruptcy thing, we're doing a mass torts, we're doing a, I think we're gonna do a thing involving a signature on a bill of sale, like that one, we're doing three or four scenarios where breakouts will talk about a case that we understand how to do in the old way. And now what happens when you add blockchain or when you add AI and we do it in the new way? Have it express itself as a service and, you know, in its scale and so forth. And my hope is that by doing scenarios that people can have a better conversation and, you know, talking apples to apples and so forth, but also looking ahead. Maybe if it's far enough ahead and made sense and people are into it, we can mean one of those breakout groups around like a state crowdfunding law. So it's, because a number of people will know that's in the practice area of a number of folks that are coming. It's interesting and it's such a poignant example, so current. Nexus, you just have to keep telling the story past my hackathon, you know. So if you're interested in that, I guess let me know. I don't want to kind of push it too soon or the wrong thing or the wrong place, but it'll be useful to have people think about that. Like we just, we're just doing it. My only concern is getting to Boston on Halloween, but. Yeah. I was doing a robot lawyer costume party competition. So that's fun. Boston party competition. You know, I'm just putting all the work people think again. I'll see what I can. Yeah, that sound actually does. I'd love to do that if you can find a way. I'd love to appreciate it. It might just be one of those many, many, many people with Halloween pleasure slash duty that it's coming on the first day and not the second day. But if that's something that you'd be interested in, if you could do it, it might be able to hook it up remotely. You're like, we're experimenting with that. So you wouldn't have to travel necessarily. Let me know. And then we can put it out there from people that are attending. If enough people are into it, why not? Like I would love to see what people thought about this and use it as another vignette to kind of elicit, you know, the best ideas of people that want to convene and co-think how to transform the law, to refactor the law for digital age. That's what you're doing right now. Yeah, it's fun and love to do it. Well, thank you guys for talking us through because I think we're moving on to the next stages here. I think we've made a lot of progress. Launch. Outstanding. Well, great, keep on, keep on on, keep being you, Nina. New legal hacker on the scene in North Carolina. And it's like, I'm so, so, so glad. So never to have a good big thing and invite me down. So I can come down to one of your hackathon, one of your legal hacker meetings and, you know, we can open up our laptops and get busy. That's great, you all have fun, have a good night. Thanks so much. Ciao.