 Hi, my name is Sandy Baird and we're here for another session of the Vermont Institute of Community and International Involvement, Vicki, and we're talking tonight about town meetings and what happened in Burlington last night. Let me begin by saying that a little bit about why I think that town meeting is such an important topic. I think town meeting originated, the idea of town meetings originated really in Athens and Greece prior to what we call now the BCE, before the common era or before Christ. And town meetings existed in Athens and as far as I know, in other Greek cities, as far as I know, there were no real ideas of democracy or town meetings prior to that. For instance, in the other civilized parts of the globe at that time, which were China, Africa, and the New World, although I don't know much about the New World in particular. But town meeting was the idea that every man at that time had the right to speak and decide the policies of their city. And there was no overriding state that would tell the towns what to do, that major decisions were made in a face-to-face democratic tradition where people had the chance to debate with each other and to come to some consensus about what the policy would be. Those city states, Athens, Sparta, and other city states were essentially units on their own with no overriding federal government. There was no idea of Greece or a Greece federal state. There were only city states, Athens, Sparta. And there were many, many differences between them. I was just reading in a book that I picked up the other day called Metropolis, how Athens believed in citizen-to-citizen exchange, a lively politics. And that is where the word politics comes from. Politics comes from the word polis and the city, the town meetings in Athens and so forth. Those were called poli and Athens was a polis. And that's where politics come from. The idea of direct face-to-face discussions, debates, and then coming to some kind of a decision mainly about policies, how you would govern your own town. It was very different. So in our tradition, that would be called a direct democracy. Everybody heard that word before? Direct democracy. And that's the difference. Our system, at least nationally, is not a direct democracy. We call the United States a democracy, but it is not a democracy. Everybody know what legal form the United States does take? What is the legal form? It's on every citizenship test, by the way. Republic. It's a republic, I said that right. And what's the difference between the two? Okay, so you have direct democracy, town meetings, face-to-face. That's why I think that this COVID thing is so lethal to town meetings, actually. However, so that's direct democracy. The United States adopted sort of part of that tradition of town meetings, which I'll get to in a minute. But what is the national form of our government? It's not a democracy at all. It's a republic. And if it's important, a republic, I think, is an improvement over kingdom and monarchies. But what is a republic? What is the key difference between that and a democracy? It's a representative. Yeah, it's a representative. In other words, every two, every four years, we go to the polls and we elect somebody who will carry out our mission of face-to-face or rather direct democracy in the state house. We get a chance to talk to each other, have debates, and then they vote on policies. And we vote them to do that job for us, right? And that's really a republic. But there are still very few republics in the world, if you think about it. Republics exist largely in the European world, in the New World, in the Americas, and in the United States. And not so much in Europe. And not so much in Europe. But it's still mostly monarchies, okay? So a republic is based on the notion, as Abraham Lincoln described it, of of, by, and for the people, sovereignty comes from below up to the top. We consent to our government. We don't think we do, but we do every four years, right? It doesn't feel like that often. But that's the theory of a republic. Democracy comes from below up to our representatives. We vote for those guys. But still we have control over, supposedly over our government. And we consent to being governed, don't we? So which is the most active democracy at the moment? What country? You tell me. I don't have an opinion. I don't really have an opinion because I don't think, well, I think Westford is the most direct democracy. Westford and, you know, Montgomery and Richmond and the towns of New England. Another really critical thought to have about direct democracy is that they, direct democracies exist in New England only. Did you all know that? Town meetings did not in any other country, what? And not in any other country. Not in any other part of our country. No. But it occurs in Switzerland. Does, yeah. And Switzerland even has militias that are citizen militias. Everybody in Switzerland has to have a gun for self-defense. And for, that's what their armies are. Switzerland does. But you've got to remember something about Switzerland that's very interesting. Switzerland has never been a monarchy. Switzerland is a republic and has been forever. All of the other European countries have been monarchies or are still monarchies. And I really want to point out something. And it's really why I love, in a way, I love the United States for this reason. We got rid of monarchy, right? Yep. Okay, so monarchy means the rule of one monarchy, the rule of one person who is who passes on his title to his children, right? You do not consent in a monarchy to the rule of a monarch. It is God given in a way. A monarchy results from somebody being born into the monarchical family, right? England can call itself a democracy. It's in no way a democracy. I had a big fight with a student in my class. An ongoing fight with this kid, because I said there's only one monarchy in the whole new world. And by the new world, everybody knows what I'm talking about. The new world is North, South America, Central America, and the Caribbean. That's the new world. There isn't, there's only one monarchy in the new world. Canada. Canada, is it? Canada, is it? Oh, shit. What? It's a bullshit. It is the head of the state. This is a fight we've been having for years. Canada is a ruler. Let me make my point. Let me make my point. You say monarchy is rule of one. What about parliament? I see that. Tomorrow, parliament can say screw the king, screw the queen. They no longer have any say in anything. That's not correct. But let me finish my point about my student. So I was always fighting with this one student about Canada being a monarchy or not. And he would always say what Barry says. Well, the queen of England can pro-robe the parliament. In other words, a queen can and has done that. She could write quite recently, right? The queen of England can say the parliament's not meeting right now and suspend it. OK, when I said that to my student, he kept arguing me all the time, blah, blah. So I said, OK, so he finally, under my direction, took students both to Quebec and Montreal and Quebec City, and then he took them to Ottawa. He, you know, I prepared the trip. He goes to Ottawa and he's given a pamphlet. He walks in the door of the parliament. He's given a pamphlet called, says Canada, constitutional monarchy. So I won my fight with him. But the point is, is that Canada's head of state is still the monarchy. As is, I think, Australia voted to keep the monarchy and so forth. It's true what Barry says, that parliament has something to say about stuff, certainly. But the queen can decide to pro- to get rid of the parliament, to suspend the parliament. And the queen is still technically the monarch of the whole empire, really, the whole British empire and the Commonwealth. And I'll tell you how did, in the New World, how did these countries that have been established, why, and how did they become even republics? They became republics by throwing off the monarchy and creating republics. That was true in the United States when it had the revolution between 1776 and the beginning of the Constitution in 1781 and then 1887, we became a republic deliberately so, right? Or not, did we? I mean, do you all agree that that happened or not? I mean, many, many, I think, very progressive people do not agree that the United States has even had any progressive past. That was a revolutionary transformation to me during the American Revolution when we decided as a people to become a republic rather than a monarchy. Because George Washington could have. He could have been a monarch. And he chose what? What did he choose at the end of his two terms? Anybody know? He chose to go home and be a gentleman farmer and have an election. He could have been, he could have been a monarch. Many people within the revolutionary movement wanted him to be a monarch. And he chose not to. That happened in the United States when it became the United States. It happened all throughout Latin America. And Robin knows this, right? About Simon Bolivar, who took a revolutionary tradition throughout all of South America and all of South American countries are republics, correct? Yes, no. People know that. And the reason that they did was that they defeated, first, the United States defeated the British monarchy. Second, all throughout Latin America, the Spanish-speaking countries threw off the Spanish monarch. Brazil threw off the Portuguese monarch eventually. And throughout the Caribbean, especially in Haiti, Haiti became free and independent black republic by defeating the French. OK, so the Republican movement really swept the New World and many parts of the European world. But the only place that has direct democracy, town meetings, is really in New England. And I guess Switzerland. I don't know, do you know any other places that has direct democracy of town meeting? No, I don't know. Anyone else? And again, the tradition of town meeting is really, really, I believe, important. You might argue that Athenian democracy didn't work because it didn't include women. That's true. It didn't include slaves. That's true. Like our initial republic also didn't include women or slaves. However, as time went on, the American republic eliminated slavery. And it also included women in the Polis or in the republic. But only in town meeting is there in this country a direct democracy. Lou, are you going to say something? Yeah, I wanted to ask, why didn't it go beyond New England town meetings? There are many reasons. But I mean, it's a very interesting historical question. This part of the United States, New England, is the oldest part of North America, at least of the English-speaking North America. There were settlements and colonies in South America. But New England was the first place that established real settled areas of Anglo funds, people who spoke English. At that time, it was like the end of the Middle Ages, in a way. And the European towns always had revolved around the church and kind of a marketplace. And that's the kind of model that was set up in New England. So there was a whole sense of having a town and having communities that would cooperate with each other and form this new society. But the land, really, in the town also had a lot of commonly owned areas, public areas. But as settlers went west, what do you think they were looking for? That wasn't in New England. They were looking for land, right? And so what they did, at least as they went west, is land became more or less a commodity. And what would happen is people settled in the west, they established different kinds of, they didn't really establish communities. Often they would establish a homestead or a farm with acres and acres of land. And village life wasn't as important as it was in New England. So New England had the whole notion of a town and community. But as people went west to collect land, it became more of an idea of a homestead farm with a lot, a lot of acres. And many times, especially women sitting in their houses alone and often stir crazy, right? So it just, it also was the whole idea that land was to be profitable, rather than to be owned and operated by a community of people. But all of it involved, of course, especially west, also in New England, taking away that land from the Native Americans, right? And that happened in New England through wars with the Indians and wars all over New England as well. But the New England patterns of settlement were very different than settlement as it moved west. And so that was the government that existed. Another reason, of course, was in New England, the government that existed was in London, way away, correct? And so the local government was much more able to operate as a local government free of the restraints of the imperial power. Then as it went west, it was really governed by Americans more and more, and it was homesteading, which was a creation of like one house in the middle of all these acres of land to be worked as a farm and really developed in a totally different way. So I just want to mention one other thing before I let Barry chime in about what happened yesterday in his town meeting or what happened. Maybe I don't know what you did in Richmond. When I was in the state house, there were some traditions that were kind of left from the town meeting that operated in the state house. One of them was, and I remember thinking that it was a good idea, one of the things that you could only vote and talk if you were sitting in your seat. You had to be, it was, there was no proxy, there were no screens that you could press buttons and show how you voted. You had to be in your seat in order to vote and in order to talk, similar in town meeting. In a town meeting, unless until COVID, you had to be at the town meeting and you had to raise your hand and you had to vote in public, as far as I understand it. I went to a town meeting a couple of times. The last one I went to was with Ike actually. I went out to the Richmond town meeting and as far as I know, Ike, that's the way it happened, right? That you had to be there in order to vote. No Australian ballots, in other words, no mail-in ballots. No ballots at all, right? Oh, in Richmond, we did have Australian ballots on the major, major money questions. That was all set, as well as the select board members and all that stuff. It's all been pushed over to Australian ballot, unfortunately. Can you explain or Barry maybe can explain what it means? Because Grant asked me to. Australian ballot is a written ballot, correct? Right, it has to be passed by the select board and agreed to so many weeks before the town meeting and you go in and you vote, you put your check mark, yes or no on this or that item or that person. Is there debate? Is there debate? There's no debate about any elected officials anymore and there's no debate about the major expenditures. Those debates happen beforehand. Unfortunately, one of the losses in not having the town meeting, of course, is that you could go to a town meeting and not be sure which way you want to vote, and you could listen to both sides of an argument and maybe get educated to a better decision. But Frontport Forum has supplanted a lot of that and it's done a good job here in Richmond. The Frontport Forum in Burlington has done a good job too, except that you don't vote on anything after you listen or after you read all the stuff that's on Frontport, it doesn't lead to a vote. At least I think it's good about education, actually around the issues, but town meeting, there would be a vote at the end and you'd have to vote in person and by voice, right? Okay, Barry, why don't you? Anyway, so all of this, it seems to me, has been altered, if not totally. I would hate to say that, I hope it's not true. I wonder about the future of town meetings, there's been numbers of criticisms about town meetings, number one of which people don't show up a lot, and there has been the attempt often to do all this by ballot, which of course has been done this year, I believe, but maybe Barry and I can tell us what happened to town meeting this year because of COVID, I guess, right, Barry? Yeah, well, this year we didn't have town meetings, we had an Australian ballot. Let me start by describing an ordinary town meeting in Montgomery. The Select Board and the Budget Committee prepare a proposed budget and it's got many, many line items. We go over them and any one of them can be changed from the floor, there's debate if anybody wants to debate. We also vote on salaries. We vote for candidates and there's no, the nomination process comes from the floor, somebody nominates a person for the Select Board or Planning Commission or whatever, and then there's a vote. Certain positions are required to be by paper ballot and Select Board, the only one I can think of off hand, probably also a treasure and town clerk, but we don't have town clerk anymore, we've switched to municipal clerk, which means the Select Board appoints the clerk and controls the job. Let's see, so, but on any item, let's say we're discussing whether or not to approve a budget to go to approve a contract with the Sheriff's Department for police services. When it's ready, after the discussed and something like that will be discussed for an hour, somebody can make a motion to, what do you call, for a paper ballot, it has a more formal name than that, and I forgot what it is, but somebody can move and if seven people stand requesting paper ballot, it will be done by paper ballot. But in general, there is discussion and debate among citizens, correct? It's every, yeah, everybody there, the only people who can talk are residents of the town unless voted, unless approved by the floor. So for instance, our state representative who lives in Enosburg wants to make a statement about what a great job they're doing in the state house. She needs permission from the floor to do so, and we always give it to them. Yeah, because she's not a resident, right? Not a resident, yeah, she's in Enosburg. How about you, like, what happens in the normal town meeting? Well, Lee, so much of it has already been supplanted by the Australian ballot here at Richmond. I mean, all the big money items, the bonds, the election of various officials, they feel like it allows more people to vote because they can't come to the meeting because it's on a Tuesday when people work. So, you know, it's already, we've lost a lot here at Richmond. Right. Okay, so what does get discussed, like, what does get discussed there? What does get discussed there, they, that's a good question. Some of the budget ends up being discussed even though it doesn't get voted on and things get discussed in other business and other business in Vermont is a long history of affecting the towns, the state and the nation. I mean, 150 towns voted for the nuclear freeze in Vermont and affected the nation. The town of Weston, my father and some others voted, brought up in the other business that we should get out of El Salvador. And it passed and they, the ambassador to the U.S. from El Salvador came and spoke to us and we came up from Brattleboro at that time and packed the place. It was quite an event. Amazing. And I brought up a couple of years ago. I said, I didn't want F-35s flying over Richmond for the fourth of July parade or it was actually F-16s at the time. And we passed it, but it was passed by like 70 to 50, something like that. There weren't that many people left at that time but it caused an uproar in the town. Well, I remember once hearing that Brattleboro voted, remember the town meeting voted to indict George Bush. Remember that? Because they regarded him as a war criminal. So they basically said Bush better not come here to Brattleboro, we'll arrest him anyway. And also- So much they know about the legal process. Yeah, the nuclear freeze, that was back in the 90s, or 80s even, I think. And I remember that was to freeze nuclear power, wasn't it, as well as nuclear weapons or not, both? No, it's just the nuclear weapons. Okay, but I remember then that there was, I went to New York after that vote, City, where there was a big march against nuclear power and there are 39 or so towns from Vermont that were represented in that march. It was terrific, you know? And they all had come from the towns of Vermont who had voted. See, that's another thing that is totally absent, I think, during COVID is that at a town meeting, there are usually a chance to debate national issues. And it has no binding effect like Ike and Richmond because they voted not to have after F-16s fly over Richmond. I mean, it's a very little way to enforce that, correct? I mean, as far as I can tell- So did they fly? What? Did they fly that year? Oh, did they? No, they- They didn't fly, right? It ended up being canceled. Well, for the July parade ended up being canceled. Oh. Was it? But they, yeah, because of COVID. Oh. Oh, most recently. It was a year before last. And so last. But the year before that, they had flown over for a very long time. Right, and I had a chance to discuss that though at the town meeting. Isn't that the one that I was with you at, Mamie? Yeah. Yeah. You could discuss these issues with citizens, ordinary citizens. It wasn't governed by party. It wasn't governed by anything, except that you were both common citizens of that town and that you could debate it and then have a voice vote that is very different than having a Republican sending off your politicians to make decisions often that end up not being what you want them to decide. Anyway, Barry, what are we gonna say? Barry? Well, let's see. There's another element of direct democracy that I believe is in every town in Vermont. The legislative body passes an ordinance. It does so without any say so on the part of the residents. But if people get put together a petition and in the smaller towns, it's 5%, which is fairly easy to obtain if there's a popular dissent. If they put together a petition to rescind the ordinance, the select board must hold a meeting to vote on that. And if the ordinance is defeated, it's done with. It's not in effect. And I believe that is possible for many things that are also decided at town meeting. And because it was being held, the select board, rather than putting it off till May when there was a good chance we could do it outdoors at least decided to do it by Australian ballot. I was against that. Didn't really have the opportunity to express it to the select board prior to them making the decision. And I need to double check the statute because if we can vote to rescind what was done at town meeting other than the elections of officers, I think I'm going to put together a petition so that we can have a town meeting at a time when people can, when it's a real town meeting. I agree. I agree. Lou, you had experience with town meetings. Yeah, pretty long time ago though, Sandy. So what? So what? Everything's a long time ago. Everything democratic seems a long time ago. Well, I don't know. The memory seems a long time ago too. Yeah, I just remember loving being there and listening to everybody talk about important things about their town. I remember that there was some, the fire department was really low on funds and they, I remember them asking the community to help in whatever way they could. And so, I know what we did was, I inherited some furniture from my mother-in-law and we gave it to the fire department to sell. And so raised some money for the fire department and other people contributed too. It was not unusual in Montgomery to spend 40 minutes debating whether or not to give $50 to the Humane Society. Right. Well, there couldn't be a better organization though than the Humane Society, right? Joe Anant... You want to get into a 40 minute argument about that? Yeah. Well, I'm sure you would be capable of doing that, Barry. Anyway, Joe Anant and Tim, did you ever go, do you go to your town meetings in Underhill? We haven't gone in a while, but we used to go religiously and of course, it was always a place to gather, to see socially... That's right. Yeah. But then of course, right, there was always, there were always a couple of personalities that shone, that kept on going. Or didn't. Or didn't. Or didn't. Or didn't. But it got them up and... But that was kind of what made it so close because you could talk to people, you could say to the person next to you, is that guy going to go on for another 10 minutes or 15 minutes? When do we have a lunch break? But it's true that we did discuss things like giving money to the fire department or the library issues, what could be done to make it more responsive to the community. I mean, those kinds of things that people felt like they were really participating in. Right. And that was what I remember of it. Right. How about you? Lou? Lou, what are you gonna say something? I'm just wondering, Joanne, do they still, do you still have town meeting in Underhill? Oh yes, until this year. This year, now we did not have one. But last year, they did. And we assume that they'll go back to it. I don't know. I hope so. Beth, were you gonna say something about Newport? She's from Newport. You're muted, you're muted. Newport was fascinating. It was a very long time ago, but I remember an incredibly heated debate about whether or not to put fluoride in the school's water. And that happened in Berlin, so yeah. It was a really big deal. And I felt at the time, you know, it was there were people who talked about conspiracies and it was a byproduct of world... Nuclear or something. Nuclear aluminum. And I really didn't feel like I knew what the facts were from the discussion. And we had to vote. We had to decide. And what did you decide, if you don't mind my asking? I got, you know, this was 40 years ago. I think we decided to, in the end, there was someone who was very passionate about not doing it, but then the school nurse said we should do it. And I think the town then decided to vote in favor of it. But I also remember a conversation that really surprised me with some of the residents of Newport Center who said, we do not want our taxes for our school, the money that we spent on the school, to go to the library because we don't use the library. There was no sense whatsoever that the library was a resource for anyone other than the students for the homework. It was very, it was interesting. Was that the school library, Beth? Yep. Not the, no, no, it was the public library. Yeah. That what, what was the point? The students had what they needed at school. And so there was no sense that there was a need for a public library. Not everybody felt that way, but some people did. And it was just surprising to learn how people thought about things. Yeah. Yeah. So that was Newport Center. Okay, so was there, was there an existing public library that they were debating whether to continue funding or is it the start one? It was all, it's all coming back to me now. It was whether or not to support, to provide funds to the library in Newport, which was the community library. The thing I really appreciate and that I find I'm just kind of heartbroken about the lack of public spaces during COVID in particular, but in a city like Burlington, public spaces have been hugely diminished in the first place by development. But secondly, during COVID, there's almost no chance to have person to person direct meetings with each other. And I feel like I'm probably one of the only people that feel that way, but I've always thought that democracy can only thrive if you have vital thriving and vitally engaged public spaces, like libraries, like public schools, like public parks. And I guess that's why I thought that this discussion also could be important because during COVID at least, town meetings have virtually evaporated. Although I did hear five town meetings that did gather on the floor. Did anybody else hear that news? Yes, some of them. Now, if they could do it safely, I'm hoping other towns can do it at least soon, right? Well, some have postponed them, haven't they? Have them in April or May so that they can have an open. Is that true, Janet? And we're having outdoors. And outdoors, Barry? Yeah. Yeah. Because the beauty of a town meeting is everybody's equal, right? In town meeting, everybody's, you don't have political parties necessarily. Everybody is equal, correct? Yeah. Supposedly. I mean, even if a big fat capitalist comes to town meeting, they don't get two votes. I mean, they don't get to influence through their money either. They have to have one vote like everybody else. So it really is not only public and open debate, but it's also very, really democratic, right? Yeah. And if you were a really, really good pie maker, you had more power then. That's right. You bring cookies to the meeting. If you're a really good, what? I missed the word. Pie maker. The maker of pies. Pastry. Oh. 3.14159. Yeah. So what's going to happen? Are we going to go back to town meetings next year? Yeah. Of course. I think so. Okay. Jim Kondo seems to like it this way, but we'll see, right? Jim Kondo is the secretary of state. What do you base that statement on? Because he so quickly moved to mail-in ballots, rather than thinking of ways around that to have open town meetings. So from that, you're assuming that he's, that he's a favor of doing it that way. You're saying that. I'm saying, I think what you said, I'm thinking we need to express our views and insist on the rebirth of town meetings. Would you like? Well, I'm going to try to bring Montgomery's this year back from the dead. Good. If I can. Yeah, Joanne. No, I'm just saying, I think that people in most towns are assuming that this is a temporary situation and that they're going to be able to have their town meeting next year. I don't think anyone wants to give that up. I don't either, but I think we might have to remind people of that pretty thorough going wish to keep town meetings as they are. Ike, what do you think? You even talked to the select board about it, haven't you? I have. Yes, I have, but I talked about the Australian ballot taking away some of the more democratic elements of the town meeting, but the intent of everybody in government and Richmond is to go back to town meetings as soon as possible. And they're apologetic for what had to happen this year. I do feel that. Did that happen last year too? I can't remember. Was it COVID last year or not? No, no, no, we had our town meeting. What about the fact though that, I mean, I think there's a tremendous value in that face to face in the community getting together. I, you know, moving from Newport to Burlington, missed that. But then how can we create a hybrid that allows people who have not had the opportunity to participate in their town government because of access? How can there be a hybrid so that they can do that as well as continuing the old model of getting together in person? Why can't you zoom for those people who can't be there in person? Right, I mean, we just, that's the hybrid that I need. Yeah, right. I mean, if people truly, if they live too far away, there's no transportation. I'm hoping that those people have some kind of a device that they can zoom in. I have had the horrible realization that many poor people don't have computers. They don't have the ability to zoom in. I had an experience today with an African woman who, you know, she was told by the court to zoom in and she doesn't have a computer. I had to tell her, you better come to my office and we'll do it together. But what do you do about poor people who don't have computers or the ability to do any, they don't have either transportation or computers to get to a town meeting? Right, well. One thing that middle sex has done according to the moderator, excuse me, in previous years they have their town meetings on Tuesday at 5.30 so that people coming off of work can make it there. And if they have limited time, they agree that at a set time, like 6.30, they're going to start voting on budget items and just skip some of the preliminary stuff that can be tossed off and done later so that those people who have limited time can come in for those. So that's one way of increasing availability for some folks. You're not gonna get everybody. Well, a lot of people aren't even interested. So they should be allowed to pursue their own interests and not come. I don't think that there's any mandate to be a citizen if you don't want to be. You just have to do it yourself. I'm surprised that in the list, the signup list for the expungement clinic. Yeah, oh my God, yeah. How many, there wasn't anyone who said no, they didn't have access to a computer. Every single one did. But we're not gonna do it on the computer. Well, it's gonna be again, a hybrid. Many of the people on the expungement clinic are gonna come to AALB and they're gonna use the phone. Right, well, I was just glad to see how many people have access. I wonder if more people have got access to computers because of COVID, were schools or children given access to computers where they didn't have them before? Or one, I just don't know. They gave everybody, didn't every student a computer? Did they, you know? I don't know about the students, but the Senior Center for Richmond Huntington and Alton received a grant to buy like 500 Chromebooks to give out to folks who can't afford computers. And it doesn't mean they can pay, they can't pay the monthly service charge. Right, that's true. We've included some teaching to try to help folks get online and understand it, but the Chromebooks allow you to get on to different video conferences and stuff where you can. But then that takes us to the issue of broadband. Yeah. Right, right there, pretty much. So, Beth, can I ask you a question? It's not totally related. But what do you mean by broadband? Do you mean like something like a Burlington telecom system? I mean just being able to hook up to the internet, period. Yeah, right. At a minimum speed. Yeah. Like I, my services do constipated communications, which took over from Fairpoint. And I don't seem to have any trouble on Zoom, except sometimes when people are talking, it sounds like it's dragged out. I don't know if that's from their end or my end, but Zoom seems to be okay. YouTube seems to be okay, but some things, it's just every half a minute or so, the video stops. Yeah. It, you know, you see the things spinning. I forgot, but that's cashing. You know, it's loading the cash. Well, but anyway, I mean, I think technology is fine in some instances, but there's nothing like face-to-face, I guess I would call it face-to-face, kind of organically, organic meetings between people to, I mean, first of all, it alters your mind. When you have to see somebody face-to-face, you're probably not going to end up hating each one. You might end up hating each other, but it's often bringing much more understanding to me than technology is capable of doing, although I agree with Beth that in some situations, it has to be a hybrid in order to make it. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting that there's town meeting, there's town meeting, and then there's the day after town meeting. Yeah. You may learn something that you didn't know about the person that works at the local corner store at a town meeting, which might change your opinion about them, but you still need to live with them the next day. So it's really interesting effect on the community as a whole and how to continue living together. And working together. That's funny. Yeah. Agreeing to disagree on how to get along. Yeah, are you right? Absolutely. Okay, I don't know whether we should particularly comment on the Burlington vote or not, because many of you are not from Burlington, but I did say that maybe we could share a few reflections about it. And anybody have anything to say about it? As you know, Mayor Weinberger won by 129 votes, that the charter changes were all passed. What were they? One of which is very controversial, but first of all, can I just say a few words when I woke up thinking, man, that was a squeaker from a row. This is, I bet you this is gonna be his last term. And the surprising thing was the strength of Max Tracy, who is not a particularly personable person, I guess, or not to me anyway, and that he is a progressive. And I think he'll probably be the next mayor. The charter changes were to me, one of them, some of them I didn't approve of many of them, but one of them that was the most controversial was the one that said landlords had to have a cause to evict somebody. So that means, if a landlord like me, I couldn't just, I have an apartment downstairs that my daughter now lives in and has for a very long time, but I have rented it. But it would mean that I wouldn't be able to simply kick somebody out that I didn't wanna be there. If that person had paid the rent and he hadn't destroyed the property, you would not be able to kick him out. You don't have to renew the lease, don't you? And also even if, exactly you cannot stop a lease either anymore. So at the end of the lease, you must re-up the lease? Yes. Yes. Re-up the lease or is it a month to month after that? No, you gotta keep them there. I know, but if you have a one-year lease, it expires on the 13th month. You can't kick them out without a cause, but must you sign a new lease with them? It's not clear. It's not clear. It's not clear. Not clear. Anyway, all of these changes have to be in, there's another tradition in Vermont, which is a bit questionable in my mind also that these charter changes have to be approved by the legislature anyway. And I would doubt that the eviction one will be approved by the legislature because the legislature like the city of Burlington has a lot of landlords and the landlords really don't like this, this. You think it will not be approved by the legislature? Correct, not that one. I don't think so. And the reason is, is, but well, first of all, I think most of many Vermonters put it this way, regard private property as the, that the owner has the right to do with his property or her property as they wish, which means getting rid of a tenant that you don't wanna be there. And I think most Vermonters probably think that way, maybe not, maybe I'm wrong. But if you look at the vote in Burlington, I was surprised it's not just that it passed, but how much it passed by. I am too. Burlington is a heavily rental city. Yeah. What was the vote on that? That's who the prog's organized. What, Barry? What was the vote on that? I don't know about that. It was pretty heavy though, right? 60 something to 30 something. Okay, you know, I had an interesting comment from one of my more conservative friends today who said the following. If you look at where Morro dominated and where Max Tracy dominated, Max Tracy took the wards that are full of tenants. Yes. And that's where the just cause eviction also really triumphed. Correct. Where Morro triumphed was places where people have to pay property taxes. So he said, my friend, when you look at the tax payers, which should be the property owners who pay property taxes, they voted for Morro and they voted against this just cause eviction. Tenants in those wards where the tenants predominate, that's where Max Tracy won. Well, that makes sense. And that's where the just cause eviction won also. Now, so in other words, this issue showed to me a class divide in Burlington paying tenants and people who own their own homes. Yeah. Now, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not saying that, but it's true. Max Tracy took what I call the Bolshevik wards. He took wards two, three. What else? Anybody know? He took the poor wards. He took the places where they, and my ward, ward one, where there are tenants, students and low-income people. Those are the wards that he predominated in and Morro did barely, however, in wards where Lou lives. Beth, did he take your ward two, five? I don't know. I didn't look by ward. I haven't done it yet. You can't believe you didn't look Morro. What? Morro took, he took my ward heavily. Remember, my ward is a student ward. This is, I live in tenants' bill. Okay, so one, four, and seven, and eight. He took the suburban kind of, uh... Who? Morro. Morro took the more... I must have taken this ward, I don't know. Grant, what ward do you live in? Five, which is the south end. South end, and Morro took that, I would assume. I can't believe he didn't, I didn't see the figures, but I can't believe he did not. I'm in the same ward, and I just don't know actually what... But Joan Shannon, who's a Democrat and a fairly conservative Democrat, did win in your ward. Yes, we got a lot. Against the progressive. So, Burlington is this odd situation because we don't have three parties, ranked voting one also. But, you know, we don't have three parties in Burlington anymore. We have two parties. Two wings, basically, of what would normally be the Democratic Party. The progressives and the Democrats, those are the... There are no Republicans, they've all vanished. Sandy, if the legislature agrees to rank voting, how is that going to affect politics in Burlington? I don't know anymore. It would have been at one point that you had three parties, but we don't have three parties. It's also only for the city council, right? Right, and it's only for city council races anyway. So, at one point, how I regarded ranked voting, and I'm against it, by the way, how I regarded it was a way that a third party got an unfair advantage. If you'll think about what happened in Burlington through ranked voting, the person who came in third was Bob Kiss, but he became mayor. And everybody goes, what? How did that happen? And that's why it was repealed. And that's why it was repealed, I think. Okay, we don't have three parties anymore. We have two parties in Burlington, the Pragues and the Democrats. There's not a Republican in sight, so I have no idea how it's gonna affect Burlington. Yeah, Beth, how do you think ranked choice voting will affect Burlington? I don't know, because I haven't thought about it in terms of city council. I should have realized sooner, and I can think about it in terms of like a mayor's race. Yeah. I think that the mayor's race would have come out differently. Yeah. If there has to go. How so? How would it have? I think that Max Tracy would have won. How? I think it was likely that some people who voted for Ali might have chosen, but I don't know. I'm just, I hope you can see what he won on the first round. Yeah, Maro won on the first round. He's on the first round. Right, right. So he didn't have to go to another round. No, but he didn't get 50%. Yeah, but you only need 40 in this town. Right. Yeah, you only need 40. So there won't be a runoff, because he got 40. So this is what happened in the rank vote, in the IRV thing when KISS won. Right. You knew it was gonna happen. Okay, so in KISS's race, you had KISS, a progressive. Who the hell was a Democrat? And then you had Mont, Andy Montrell was a Democrat and Kurt Wright was the Republican. Well, you know that the Democrats and Republicans hate each other so much that they were all gonna vote for KISS second. And that's what happened. Mm-hmm. They're never gonna vote for each other second because they hate each other. They're Dems and the Republicans. And they didn't vote for Kurt. So Kurt came in first. Then there was, and did not win. He didn't get 40%. He came in first. So then there was a recount. Did not win. And then Montrell came in second. Did not win. But did not win, because he didn't get 40%. Plus, I think people just don't know how the system works in terms of, okay, given that I like this candidate and honestly, I don't want any of the other candidates. If you vote for first choice, the same person for second choice, the same person for third choice. I don't know if you're allowed to do that or not effective. So it makes voting complicated for people to really understand the effect of their vote, I think. That's exactly one of the big troubles, was it? In my experience, you ask somebody to explain exactly how it works and they can't. Well, that's one thing I was gonna ask. Exactly, it's very confusing. Yeah. I like that. One thing about voting for your candidates, you can bullet vote, but you get to vote only the first round, then you're out. Then you're out, right. But anywhere reruns, you're out because you lost your vote on the first round and that's it. And it doesn't keep counting after that. I'm very against it, as you can tell. And it was a catastrophe the last time we had it. And it's a bad news that it passed this time. Lou and I were really against it. I got a little trophy for leading the debate, you remember that? Yes. Man, oh man, because I knew that what would happen would be that KISS would win that way. So I regarded it as a kind of a gimmick to elect a person who didn't come in first. Kurt Wright came in first and he came in first the second time. He just didn't get 40%. Yeah, I don't, you know, one of the things that's interesting, Sandy, when we were debating this last time was not COVID time. Yeah. We went around to different awards and talked to different people to try to give them another perspective on the ranked choice voting that maybe people hadn't thought about. And I think, I don't know, did anybody else hear any debates about that? What were the pros and cons? Did anybody hear that? Before the election? On my front porch forum there was, including me, but there are other people too that had some of the biggest pieces about ranked choice voting. So in every case, very against it on my front porch forum. But anyway, that one and that will be, that I probably think might be approved by the legislature. But okay, so it's only for the city council races, which nobody even, two people don't often run in a city council. Like my guy, Jack Hansen, he's never opposed. What's it, who's gonna rank that one, two, three? It's insane. Anyway, so that's everything past all, including this weird, Beth, how about the electric one? I'm glad it passed. I think it's- But what is it? It doesn't really mean that if you don't switch, you're gonna be fine? No, no, not at all. And that's, you know, that's the only, my only problem is how poorly people understand it. Yes. You know, but I think that, and I don't think it's very well-developed, but I think in concept, it's the right thing to do for climate change. And I think it'll have to get, well, yeah, would have to get more fully developed to go to the legislature. I think, okay. I don't think that you can develop- Appreciate it. Carbon neutral. We develop something to put, I think it has to go to the legislature as is, but I don't- As it is, yeah. Anyway, so Moral is a squeaker, 129 votes. I think it means that he's gonna be rather a lame duck mayor. He's very weak at this point. A friend of mine said that probably what's gonna happen is that we're gonna have like two mayors, Max Tracy and Moral butting heads 100% of the time. Doesn't seem really great to me, but I think that's my thought. Anybody have any different thoughts before we close for the evening? Yeah. Moral, when he conceded acknowledged that he had work to do to cooperate with the progressives, Max Tracy in his concession said not a word about cooperating. All he said was, oh, I lost by so little. I'm really sad. I was so hard to lose. He had not one word of handing out a hand to welcome Moral acknowledging good faith that he had won. That's a really interesting analysis because that's the way city council has been for the past how many years. It's really, it's like so painful. And this whole development agreement that's gonna happen, that's gonna be, they voted to do that, but I think they're gonna be increasing problems about that. And I don't think that the progressives wanted to approve it either. So I think that, and I happen to think that the city is in deep trouble financially as well. And unless they cooperate, I just think the city's really, really in trouble. And I'm sorry to say that because I love cities. I really love cities. And I was downtown today, I got my haircut. And a lot of empty clothes, businesses, the streets are pretty empty, a lot of parking spaces. Something's gotta give, it seems to me. But anyway, thank you all. And I'm so glad that we had this discussion about my favorite form of government so that we could go. I would love to have, for instance, real debates, which is not possible in our city, but I'm happy that you guys can still do it. Alu, what are you gonna say? No, I've got to just say that we had a little bit of a debate and it's not impossible to do it via Zoom, much better in person. So looking forward to springtime, maybe when we can do this in person. Yes, okay. Well, thank you all. Thanks for those thoughts of you from the Hinterlands for showing up. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Not Zoom. Yeah, I'm glad you did. Yeah, thank you. Bye, everyone. Bye.