 Hello and welcome. If you are not here for the true cost of open source you're in the wrong room You need to use the exit go down the hall and find the right presentation Thank you for coming if you are here to listen to me talk about the cost of open source My name is Suzanne Ambele and I am with VMware. I'm our director of open source marketing and strategy at VMware and in in the spirit of Oss love from this morning. I want to shout out some Oss love to a couple of people in the audience mr. Hect from links Foundation research and from the new stack and Geeky girl Don dr. Don Foster over there my colleague at VMware open source love to the both of you. Thank you We get started a little bit about me You can see my Twitter handle there at Rosso vello. That means red bike I used to have a red bike it got stolen, but it didn't change my tag I have been at VMware for 12 years now, and I've been in tech for quite some time Work at a company called tandem computers. Raise your hand if you know anything about that. Hmm. I know how old you are And I also worked at Sun Microsystems anybody Sun Microsystems. How about Java? Yeah, remember Java days? Yeah So I've been around the block once or twice and my career started in broadcast news and public utility making Doing general rate case testimony for Pacific gas and electrics. I've had a very varied career These are some of the things I enjoy in life outdoors outside on my bike I have two Doxons paradox and that's me in the bottom right corner with my favorite gravel racer Sarah stern I have started to race bikes and I have absolutely no business doing that because somebody's got to finish last and That would be me So you can see my Instagram handle down there bikes nappy if you're interested to see what I follow which is bikes beer and dogs Okay With that the agenda today I'm gonna be talking a little bit about kind of our arrival our being open source We're arrival in the big time how we got there what it looks like What are the implications of that and then I'm gonna go into a little bit of a problem I see kind of lurking in some of the data and some of the reports that I've seen published as of late from Variety of sources and they're gonna go into a little bit to talk about some of the maybe the Causes of that we're gonna talk about some behavioral Economics and don't worry. It'll be fun. I promise we're gonna talk about demand and supply or supply and demand We're gonna talk about the free rider and the tragedy of the commons and that is not a Shakespeare play Then we're gonna talk about the consequences that are looming on the horizon because of this situation and what we should be Thinking about and how we should be changing and talk a little bit about the solution and then give you a little bit about an Opportunity for all of you to participate in how to solve the problem and how to start understanding the problem a little more deeply So that's what I'm gonna cover today, and I know I'm between you and lunch So I will try and use short words and finish early Before I begin I do have an econ degree And so I need to make my apologies to Adam Smith John Maynard Keynes and Milton Freeman and all my econ professors Because I am going to be taking liberties and if for all for all of you who may have an econ degree You may go wait, right like okay So I've been some of the rules to apply to the special circumstances that we are here in open source So and that is Adam Smith there in Edinburgh. So One of the econ heroes So as we get started I want to just kind of set the stage and set some definitions that I'm going to be using For this presentation. I define price as the economic value Assigned to an asset expressed in the form of currency and documented in the form of a transaction a purchase order Right a bill an invoice I'm going to define cost as something a little bit different Cost is the combination of the price that you paid plus any indirect investments That you have to expend to put that asset into productive use It's the price you pay and the cost you incur that becomes the total the total number And then value is the benefit that you gain or receive By putting that asset into productive use less any costs Ideally you want that number to be positive because if it's not you're upside down and you should question your motives for actually having that asset in production So keep those definitions in mind So today we know that open source is preferred study after study has said that customers buyers users They now prefer open source It's become kind of the lingua franca of this modern apps in cloud world that we're all in the middle of This study here, which was published by O'Reilly Media called the value of open source in the cloud era And you can look that up you can go get that little book it one of the quotes I pulled out from it was that Companies choosing multi-cloud prefer OSS because it meets their requirements and that 70% of respondents prefer Cloud providers that offer those solutions based on open source. So here's a declared Preference and at VM where I work a lot with our sales teams. They are asking me now What is this open source again my customers asking about it? What is it? How do I talk about it? So I know too from firsthand experience that customers are starting to express this preference and We all know in the application world that open source isn't optional It's a required ingredient of any application. We build today. You can't build modern software without open source Nor would you want to that would be a sort of a silly endeavor to to even try a study by IDC So showed that 72% of all modern apps developed that they they they scanned over that past year include externally sourced components no surprise and That external Components accounted for about 80% of the resulting code. So 20 so only 20 percent of an application is potentially Net new code the rest of it is reused Some of that may be open source some of that may be inner source where you're sharing proprietary code amongst applications But the fact of the matter is only 20 percent may be net new Here's another study picked up sponsor here synopsis This is their 2022 so open source security and risk analysis report And I thought this report was fascinating and I pulled out this one page This one slide that that showed that percentage of scanned code bases containing open source in the following industries From computer hardware and semiconductors. That's that first red box there all the way down to health care in the bottom Corner there, but you'll note that every single number there is above 90 percent So the percentage of those code bases in those industries that had open source is 93% or more and of those code bases 78% of the code was in fact open source That's significant right and this is starting to become you know on the surface and people are paying attention to it So let's sit back and give ourselves a big pat on the back We did it we be in the open source community. We've arrived We now have a seat at the table. We all knew it all along, but now we're being acknowledged as yeah You're here and as I am Brian Bellendorf said on Monday Good enough for the CIA and the Vatican at the same time Right, and I think he got that quote from somewhere else. I didn't write down the full citation But I thought that was a great line To kind of evidence where open source is today we've all earned this place at the grown-up table But we've also earned all the all the benefits and consequences of that confers. We've been proven to be reliable Safe secure mostly, but same with all software trustworthy mostly same with all software No different and for many that are now consumers and and rely on an open source. It's free Or is it? I'm gonna get into that in a minute But in all of this Celebration and all of this data that's after affirming our place in this whole ecosystem There's a small problem lurking and I've started to notice it in a variety of studies and let's take a look at what that's telling us So here's my first foray into econ. This is supply and demand Econ 101 and what I've observed. This is my own personal opinion is an unbalanced situation that's starting to emerge This is a question from the annual Ospo survey run by the to-do group It's also sponsored by the Linux Foundation. This is from last year 2021 data. The question was where's your company or Organization on its open source journey and you can see over the past three years the consuming is quite high But the supply that is the contributing is low And so there's this divide here that's starting to emerge and it seems to be consistent It's not it's not closing in some cases It's widening and you can see some interesting things happening in the data there And I'm really curious to see what happens in 2022 Because you know there was a thing called a pandemic so you know I think that influenced a lot of the numbers that we're seeing especially in this space so But but there is this this difference between what I consume and if I'm willing to contribute Now asking that question a different way The survey also posed how often does your company do the following things? How often do you use open source code for non-commercial or internal reasons? Use open source code for commercial products or contribute code upstream And this is just from last year 2021 so you can see frequently sometimes rarely never don't know The never line is 27% That's a lot. That's an astonishing number of people who say we will never do that have never done that and yet They frequently you know the frequent number is 62% and on that frequent code upstream only 20% So again, there's this big gap between I'm using it. I rely on it. I trust it I have to have it and oh, no, I'm I'm not going to participate Mr. Rostek Yes, yeah that that can be sorted out right So The the question the audience is do do you segregate between companies that don't have developers and can only consume and companies that Have developers but don't choose to participate for whatever reason and yes, you can sort the data by this I'll give you the link to the data you can go in and rummage around and they get how repo it yourself and Kind of sort all tease all that out. This is just kind of high-level pick of The the overall view of what's happening there So so there's a problem going on here And so, you know, it's I'm not trying to assert that for every gap There's a give there should there's not necessarily a one-to-one if I get one thing I'm going to give one thing but there is this this This notion that you should be Invested in open source if you are relying on it and if it is a central part of your code base You should have some Some participation level it shouldn't be rarely or never so what's going on behind the scenes? And this is where I think there's some behavioral economics at play so again economic theory some plausible Things that are happening in the background the first one I think we can all agree is something called the free rider syndrome and in economic theory the free rider syndrome is When something a good right open source is non-excludable open to all When it's available at no cost ie free, there's no currency Transaction, there's no barrier to access or entry. You don't have to show a credential or prove who you are or Interrogate it's just there for you It delivers Value in other words it's something you want it changes. It helps you to achieve a goal and it lacks centralized management or control Now all of those qualities describe an open source ecosystem pretty well a lot of people call the free rider syndrome the NPR challenge National public radio right they raise money. They have their pledge calls You know call now and pledge $10 a month and get a tote bag and There's a lot of free riders in NPR. There's a lot of free riders out in the open source ecosystem the second Thing that I think is happening or is it has actually occurred in some projects is the tragedy of the commons and This is a sort of a self-centered notion in economic theory. This is where individuals with access to a public or common resource Act solely in their self-interest for their own gain They let others do the investment and they just take and they know they're doing it And they're willful and they do that is their strategy right and as that happens and as more and more people adopt that Philosophy around this asset the commons where that asset is swiftly overrun destroyed ruined because Too many people took too much with too little investment back in Now another example of this is a freeway and traffic congestion if everybody decides that driving a car is The right way to go and everybody does it by themselves All of a sudden that freeway no longer works It's too congested. That's the tragedy of the commons You have to start acting not in your self-interest for that common asset to retain any value Now the last thing that I would hypothesize is going on is a little bit of the paradox of price and That's what happens when something has a price of free It has it automatically infers no value back to that individual because you haven't had to extract an economic cost From your your situation so you haven't had to make a trade-off So every month you have a budget and you can buy this or that and if you buy this expensive thing You can't buy those other three things. You've had to make a trade-off. There's a consequence to your choice now If something is free, there's no consequence to that choice. There's no budgetary impact. It becomes invisible Because it doesn't have a resource commitment assigned to it There's no line item in the budget. There's no purchase order or bill or invoice associated with your consumption So the result is the consumer of that good tends to treat that good with a little bit of willful disregard and Analogy I have for this situation is a water meter Okay, California is in the middle of an epic drought Hundreds of years. It's never been this bad. I grew up in town of Sacramento called Sacramento And Sacramento were by to the confluence of two rivers the Sacramento River and the American River and growing up We use water as much as we wanted whenever we wanted. Why? no water meter No charge. No one was counting so it didn't matter and Even today there are no water meters in Sacramento It doesn't matter and so of course water consumption Isn't being managed in Sacramento in the middle of a drought So again, if you put a price tag on it if you meter it and all of a sudden you're aware of it You start to understand your consumption of it and you you're better at managing it Now the last thing on the bottom of the slide is not an economic theory, but I'll just call it ignorance is bliss Now all those economic theories above assume For knowledge, I know I'm a free rider I know I'm part of the tragedy of the commons and I know this thing I'm using and has no price I know the last one ignorance is bliss is I don't know and I don't want to find out That is also I think happening quite a bit So a lot of this thought was inspired by a blog I read a couple years ago by Dries Who view the old tart somebody helped me with the last name? I know I butchered it This is written in September 19th 2019 it was called balancing makers and takers to scale and sustain open source and this is an Extraordinary piece very thoughtful writing. He's not an economist by training, but there was a lot of clues into this and It is a long blog Set aside a half an hour or more to sit down and really go through this and read this Really interesting this one poll quote. I really like which is the difference between makers and takers is not always a hundred percent clear Makers as a rule of thumb makers directly invest in growing both their business and the open source project Well as takers are focused solely on growing their business and let others take care of the open source That is the classic free rider. So there's makers and takers and not everybody can be a Maker Stephen Ross doubt some people cannot for whatever reason but most can Be a maker most can figure out some way to invest back So the result of all this free rider tragedy of the commons Ignorance is bliss and the the paradox of price is this great Illustration nobody says it better. I don't think there's a presentation without this right like there you go You have this one little stick in the middle Everybody's relying on it and that and and we're okay with that. Well, we shouldn't be we shouldn't be okay and What happens when we do that when we have this one little spike here and I'm gonna talk a little bit about the risks Involved in that and this is a hat tip to Don Foster This is a lot of the next slides are from inspiration from her blogs her writing and her Presentation that she's given at open source summits in the past and if you want to read more by dr. Don Foster You can see her blog link down there She's done a whole series on risk and open source and how to identify it and how to mitigate it and some of these thoughts are from that Some risks to consider our project ownership if you look if you're using open source Do you know real who really owns that or controls that project? Is it an individual benevolent dictator for life or solo pilot or? Is it company-owned controlled or is it foundation-led and community managed each of those poses different levels of risk that you may or may Not be comfortable with and may or may not have accounted for as a potential cost First projects that don't have a lot of adopters that should raise some alarms in your head The more adopters the better it lowers the risk because there's more people Contributing to it that you can look to two more types of risk or security Right lower risk projects have documented processes So you know what happens how people collaboratively make decisions how things get posted and we're mediated and then a Risk is also involved if you're too distant from that open source project and unaware and connected to it Technical debt starts to mount very very quickly and technical debt is one of the most expensive debts You can carry on your books largely because you don't know it's there and I have a sea turtle picture there because Finally, you know, it's only fun being underwater if you're a sea turtle Other than that it's not a whole lot of fun to have all that technical debt around your neck and then ignorance is bliss Recall that studies show that up to 80% of a code base could be open source and If you don't know is my code base 80% 60% 20% If you just don't even know how much is open source and you don't know what open source there is That's kind of an 80% gap an 80% blind spot and the thing that you're building and shipping and That should make you very very nervous So again going back to price and cost and value and revisiting those definitions Price is that dollar amount you exchange To get that asset value is the benefit that you get from using that asset and Cost is the combination of the price that you pay and any indirect investments You have to make to get that productive use and I will assert that cost is where surprises are likely to happen to change your value line from a positive to a negative Right and all of those risks that we talked about before are actually cost in disguise So risk is cost in disguise it's a future cost of Unknown magnitude That must be paid maybe tomorrow Maybe the next day Maybe in two months Maybe every single day for every single thing that you're building But the point is you don't know if you don't know what you're using and you don't know its state This is a huge problem for you And I think this is where I see this supply and demand gap growing where people are adopting open source and embracing it as you know kind of the the superpower For their code, but at the same time these same companies aren't willing to contribute and Some of these same companies that are enthusiastically embracing open source are also enthusiastically prohibiting their employees From participating and so there is some cognitive dissonance happening there We need to start thinking about and understand why a company would say no way never But at the same time say I will consume nothing but open source, right? There is some dissonance happening there that kind of need to look in the mirror at so how can ospo's help resolve this difference and I think ospo's and You know ospo like groups within companies or even individuals can really help to lean into this and identify this problem To management you've got an 80% blind spot. Let's start talking about it Let's start having some uncomfortable Conversations maybe in certain circles about what you need to change and how you need to change So the first thing I think an ospo or an ospo like individual They can start having some guided discussions or conversations with their leaders which is all about open source what What are you using? Where are you using it? Do you have an inventory? Are you compliant with licenses? So this is a compliance starting point and that's often the place where ospo's start Are you compliant with the licenses? Do you know even know what you have? The ingredient list the S bomb right The ospo can then take that conversation to the next level which is asking that question of why Why that open source and not something else? Did you get here? Here being the consumption of that open source by accident You just don't know why is your open source consumption strategy ad hoc in the moment built of accident and incident For 80% of your code base Or did you arrive here by design with purposeful documented choices and ospo can help with that conversation and Help lay out what those checklist items might be to make smarter Informed choices and to document them so that the next person down the road will go ah, ah, ha You're using these things and here's why you chose to use things and why you chose to use those versions When that's documented now, you know now you can act on it when it's not documented. Where do you go? They can take the next step and say okay, you have these things you've decided to use them How close are to source are you how how much of a snowflake do you really have? What is your technical debt on that piece of code and how would you get to current is? That even possible at this point right so they can help you have those Technical discussions to figure out how to get yourself into better said and Then for that product and that open source component is it strategic? how do you know and If it is strategic What sort of commitments are you making to protect that investment? at VMware Dawn's group maintains a list of Strategically identified open source projects at VMware participates in and we keep our eye on that list because those open source projects are very important to us and To our customers and so we monitor those and we invest in those more heavily than we would others But we've made a decision. Yes, that one is strategic and here's why and We check in on that and we make sure that that project is healthy and thriving and has what it needs Whether it's something that VMware has originated or it's a third-party project that we're participating in but we keep our eye on that with intent Because it is strategic and we're making commitments to it The next thing an Ospo can do is help you check your contribution culture What is the environment that you've established for your employees? Are you a prohibit just say no? Are you with an ignore culture which is don't ask don't tell I just don't want to know Are you a tolerate culture that says? Well, if you must we'll make an exception just for you Or are you a culture that expects and encourages open source participation? Participation and you know, I'll say a little snide remark here Be careful what you wish for because it could end up being one of your okay ours I don't know if anybody has any okay ours going down, but So so there's a whole spectrum and it may not be evenly applied across a large organization There may be some organizations that may be on the prohibit end and others that may be on the expect and and Encourage and but again an open source program office can help establish a more positive Contribution culture one that's based more than based on more than just compliance. They can help guide you and give you tips and and best practices on how to engage in an open source project what type of Contributions right all of these things can help your your employees act with more Confidence and competence as they step into an open source community that may be brand new to them You know a lot of people said lurking and stalking is the place to start I'll use the word spectate. It's great to go to a project and spectate first Just listen and learn and watch and understand and then as you get more comfortable with it Then you can step in ever so Gently as much as you want to start to engage. I'll give you some tips on that in just a second The to-do group has an immense immense treasure trove of information for those of you Who are curious how to start what to do there are Our call it guides galore on the to-do group site how to create a program Measuring your program tools for managing your program how to use open source code wisely community participation The list goes on and on and on it's all documented. It's all great content. You can see the guide there For a lot of people reading isn't the best way to get through something so they also have training modules So they've taken that content and made training modules out of it again You can get that content for free on github. You can go down you can download each of the modules and you can read through it yourself But for many that's not incentive enough So sign up for a class and then there's seven modules and you're expected to finish each one and take a quiz Sometimes that is the great motivator to get through some content. So there's a several module program. It's formal It's on the Linux foundation. There is a cost involved So if you don't want to pay again cost price value Go to github and you can read it on your own But you may not be a learner that learns by reading you need to listen and see so again take advantage of all these resources if you don't have an open source program office today and Realize that you might need one because of some of the situations I discussed earlier and Less formally than that Here's some other tips if you are a consumer or user of open source in every single one of you is in this room step one Identify the open source that you deem essential or strategic to you yourself personally to your your project to your team to your department to your company and Then go to the source There's there a contributors guide. Is there a governance doc if there aren't read it? Study what's happening, you know be a spectator in that project understand what's going on understand where it's at where you're at What's the difference between the two and then maybe maybe on a big dare introduce yourself say hello To the maintainer say Thank you. I'm using your software to do x let them know sometimes that can be Just such payback for anybody who's worked so hard on a project to have someone say please Thank you, and then step three. How can I help? What do you need? I'm using this. It's giving me great benefit How can I repay that how can I help you? Now for those of you That are on the other side of the fence you're a project maintainer or leader. I asked three things of you one Update your contributors guide and governance doc or if you don't have one make one Doesn't need to be elaborate doesn't need to be fancy There are plenty of templates out there for you to choose from Cnc half see the CNCF has plenty of templates that you can look at and borrow from I would also say code of conduct Also very important for your project. So people understand how does this project work? How do I go from spectate to contribute? Make it easy Make it friendly ensure that you've got communication channels set up that you have regular calls that you have Frequently asked questions things that help someone feel comfortable at home. I call it hospitality Project hospitality make it a welcoming place and then step three be explicit Ask for help Here's my list of good first issues here are the things that I'm wrestling with here is my road map Here's what I hope to achieve. Would you like to help? Sometimes that explicit ask for help gives that person that over there that is a spectator The the courage to say I know something about that I wonder if I could help and now all of a sudden you have that two-way Exchange and then you're starting to bridge that gap between the demand for open source and the supply of people Actually contributing to it and you start to bring these two more into equilibrium another favorite economic term so as you engage and as you raise awareness of the consumption and use and the essential nature of open source in your In your personal life in your company in your department in your business you start to increase contribution You start to define the investment levels that you need put a line on them in your budget open source What are you going to assign to that? Are you going to sign resources? How much? Is it resources in relation to the amount that this that you are relying on this? Is there an imbalance there that you might need to fix? And as you do this your benefits will rise because as you get more engaged in the open source You rely on you get closer to source you get closer to that influence and impact You the that flywheel of innovation starts to spin so much faster And your costs aka your risks will start to fall As you get more engaged. So there's a win-win there and it's good for everyone. It's good for you It's good for the community. It's good for the project. So it's something you should really take a second look at so in closing What is the true cost of open source software? and like any good economist I'm going to say it depends It depends on a lot of things Where are you out on your journey? How close are you to source? What is that open source project? How are you using it? But what I would say and I encourage to all of you is just take away three things Don't be a free writer Pay your dues Call now you might get a free tote bag. You don't know But pay your dues Ignorance is not bliss It's going to bite you Many people that endured the log for shell log for j Situation were like do we have it? I don't know. How do we know? I don't know how we know That was a really big sort of pivotal moment for a lot of people and so ignorance isn't bliss It's actually quite frightening And then I would encourage you to operate with intent not accident have a strategy have a plan know the why Behind the open source that you are using I like this quote that came from joe betta joe betta is now a free agent He is on his own after working at bmware for the past four years But he said open source is a growing force for any company that deals with software and today that's every company And smart organizations turn open source from the source of stress i.e I don't know ignorance is bliss state To a competitive advantage where they understand what they're using they're investing it They're delivering more value back to that open source community and they're also reaping the rewards of that So be a smart organization And then last but not least i'm going to encourage all of you to take a look at the new research study That was released today. Hillary cardy carter talked about that this morning. This is the 2022 ospo survey This survey is in field now You can go to that link down there. You can read the press release You can get the little button that says take survey now I encourage you all to take that survey the richer the data set the better the outcomes the better the insights that We gain every year from understanding how each of you View open source how each of you are using an open source program office or something like it or not, right? It helps us understand where we are on this maturity what progress we have in front of us And then there's another study coming up hasn't been announced yet, but it's uh, dr. Henry Chesboro He's a faculty director at um, you see berkeley school of business. Um, he's an economist Uh, he's going to be doing a survey called the under understanding the economic value of open source and that is coming soon I've seen a draft of that survey. I know that he's working on that I expect to see that out in the coming quarter. So if you see that come your way Please I encourage you to also take that as we start to understand the real numbers behind the open source that we're using today and with that I went pretty quickly I want to thank you all for your attention and coming and if you have any questions I'll do my best to answer it. I can no longer draw the kanesian cross though. So please don't ask me to Thank you any questions sir I'm sorry. Can you say that again? Can you use can you identify any of the strategies or metrics you use to identify the The open source projects that are important to vmware Let's see don just left. Um, so don uses She's part of the chaos project. She uses beturgia. She uses auger. Um, we have our own Sort of criteria that we have internally about different types of technology like You know kubernetes obviously important to us We're obviously going to keep an eye on that and other sub projects But she does have metrics that she tracks and we do pull that data every quarter knowing that the data is Good but incomplete so it's it's directional It it's it's you know, what I've learned that capturing data in this area The closer you get to the data the less reliable it becomes because there's a lot missing right So you kind of have to step back and go directionally. It's looking like this So she uses a variety of tools But if you have some specific questions on the scripts that she she uses and how she does it I encourage you to read out reach out to geeky girl dawn Mr. Hect How do you um How do you see level of innovation that's coming from open source? Okay, so the question in the audience. I'll continue just a second is um, how do you capture And and quantify the value of innovation and the value of innovation from open source. I get that correctly Um, it is a conversation VMware's open source program office reports to our VP of research and innovation So innovation is near and dear to his heart and it's not a foreign conversation It can be a hard conversation for Some who are not accustomed to open source to say well, wait a minute You just invented this great thing and you're giving it away for free Tell me again how that works, but this is all about, you know, that that flywheeled innovation and sharing that that That initial spark so that things can grow that much faster What you do as an individual software company is you provide that differentiated value on top of that core That's how you have to have that discussion. It's a tricky one It's one that has to happen again and again and again before they get it. It takes a while Mr. Bork Suzanne great Session today congrats. Uh, just a friendly suggestion on that one slide. You talked about the spectrum of Yeah, you know ignore a taller rate And then you led to okay ours, I believe There's one additional stage if you want to really get radical and optimistic is incentivize And it would be great to get more organizations to actually not just Expect it but go the extra mile and recognize it in a meaningful way And it's one of the fights I've had in my travels because there's Plenty of examples of companies that incent patent creation intellectual property And Hold it up on a ivory tower and applaud it and at the same time they're consuming the holy out of open source and They barely put a toe in the incentivize pool Here here Incenting that rewarding that Acknowledging open source contributions. I think is critical inside a large company I know that google does that regularly they have quarterly awards and acknowledgement They published publicly on who who Who has contributed? We are still on that journey at vmware, right? Um, and and all of that does take time as people Understand that they really are standing on the shoulders of giants. Mr. Rostat Question. Yes. Um, I'm on the technical the lengths foundation technical advisory board or aka the tab We are working on a Rating system for companies on how well how well they support maintainers open source maintainers wonderful And that should be published. Hopefully soon Um, I don't want to say anything right now, but we're right now working on something We're going to probably go to a few companies that are open source Make sure that you know, they don't say hey, wait, we're not rated in this like red hat So like they know but uh, yeah, I expect that to come out and we're hoping that that could could help incentivize uh, as the Companies to reward maintainers a little better. Who doesn't want to get a good good great, right? It's the technical advisory board lengths foundation technical advisory board We're coming up with like a rating system that we're going to say these are the Qualifications of that puts you on a thing. It's going to be kind of a general stand like a System. Yeah, that basically says this is where each company is listed in their support for maintaining maintainers of open source projects We have a long ways to go to say. Thank you to maintainers Um, you know, we saw that slide in the in the keynote today that showed what there were some 100 projects with only 15 people the census to report is just Astonishing it how few people are maintaining such critical projects and how we need to really change Change the balance on that and really change this this this imbalance between the two All right. I think I am at time. I don't see my my time lady Holding up a red. Yes. Here comes the red sign right now Stop it says so with that I will stop and say wish you all a good afternoon And thank you for coming. I really appreciate your time