 Mobile is is where people should be developing for. I mean the the the amount of traffic that is moving to mobile is is astronomical Welcome to the Smarter Building Materials Marketing podcast Helping you find better ways to grow leads, sales and outperform your competition. All right, everybody Welcome to Smarter Building Materials Marketing where we believe your online presence should be your best salesperson I am Zach Williams alongside my co-host Beth Popniklav and we have an awesome Awesome awesome show lineup for you today We are going to be talking about some of the most exciting ways that you could be going after marketing and Disrupting your own product category and to talk us through this we have got one of the absolute best in the business We're really excited to be able to welcome Joe Altieri. He is the inventor and founder of flex screen Joe, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for being on the show. Oh my pleasure. We're gonna have some fun today I'm really excited to really really excited Awesome So just in case our audience doesn't know who you are Can you take a couple minutes introduce yourself and give us a little bit of background about flex screen? Sure Well flex screen is the world's first and only flexible window screen. That's our little tagline, right? So so we sell window screens, which is typically not a very sexy product So if I can make screens sexy ever you can make any business sexy, but But yeah, so our company has been in business for we've been producing for about seven years now I was a was a rep in the window and door industry so I've been in the in the window and door industry on the manufacturing side for about 22 23 years now and My customers had a problem with window screens, you know scratching and denting and hard to get in and out Our product was birthed out of my garage This was just a hobby that I that I pulled my wife's Yukon out of the garage and set up a workbench and two years later I had this really ugly prototype that I showed off to some contacts that I had in the industry and they said build it and we will come and So got some investors together and we we opened up our first plant and Pittsburgh Which is where I'm located and now we are in the middle of opening up our seventh manufacturing location So we are growing fast over the past You know seven years, so it's it's been a wild ride And one thing for our listeners, too, and you didn't hit on this Joe. I'm surprised, but you were also on Shark Tank, right? Yeah, I you know, I try like I would lead with that Joe I Run I run I run a manufacturing, you know organization, you know, by the way, I'm famous. I'm kind of a Well, I try to keep knocking myself down a couple pegs, you know, we but my family and I were we're in we were going on vacation we were on a on a a Layover this is just like two months ago and I shark tank You know our first first time we were on it was two years ago, and then we were on it again They did an update episode with us about a year ago The attention is really heavy for a couple weeks after, you know, you kind of go to the gas station like hey Joe saw you on TV But then it kind of dies off a little bit and every once while you get recognized, but I Got recognized in the airport my my family's like oh my goodness. Here we go again. Dad's gonna be you're not gonna be able to live with them, you know So but but yeah, I was on Shark Tank It was it was a lot of fun and like I said, we were on twice So we we actually got a deal with Lori Grineer. She's one of our equity partners now and We were doing so well within the first year that they did something that they usually don't do which is We got an update episode the next year. We were growing fast But then because of the show we were in Home Depot and all that stuff. There's a lot lot to talk about so that's really cool so one of the things that's really unique about flex screen is the way that you guys go to market and It's not uncommon to have a new product or even a new company enter the industry, right? There's tons of demand tons of innovation in our industry But a lot of the time those new products just get sucked right into the traditional channels How did you resist that traditional go-to-market strategy and what did it look like for you when you guys were starting out? We had a very interesting Challenge starting out so window screens have been the same for over a hundred years now So a metal window screen with a rubber spline was invented in 1907, right? So and it looks just like the screens that you probably have on your on your house unless you have flexory so So we we were entering a very very mature market like this is how we've always done screens Why would we do anything different? You know those types of things so even though our product answered a lot of issues For the window manufacturers and for the homeowners We were having trouble Getting people to convert right so it's something brand-new. We've been doing this for a hundred years and So, you know, I had these investors that had put in millions of dollars, right? And our first year of sales was four hundred thousand dollars like I mean it was like we did not come anywhere close to paying the bills right and so Like okay, we have to do something else like what it what can we possibly do as This little company this little startup that is going to get some some attention at this point The corporate office was a closet I mean, I don't know how else to say it like it was one of my one of my partners had a building who like well We have this storage area back here. Do you need an office? You know and I had a part-time guy who was helping me and just answer phones and stuff like that and then we brought on this intern and he was he was Doing digital Some some digital things that was his his degree he was going for we're like, okay What can we do this to possibly get some attention to our product? I don't have the money for a Super Bowl ad I don't have you know, even even just doing ads in and some of the the industry publications I just didn't have the money for it and like well Digital marketing is kind of free if you do it yourself, right? I mean, it's you know You can do some of the things some of the basic things you can do it without an agency And so we sent the the intern home We put a black sheet up like bought a piece of fabric put a black sheet up and we just started making videos Like trying to get the word out about us like and and they were funny videos They were crazy videos They were making fun of me making fun of our industry making fun of like it was like me hitting stuff with with Hammers, you know running stuff over with cars, you know, just things that were so So crazy that it started getting some some attention You know and and then you know just doubling down every time we would get a little bit of attention We're like now we have to do more now. We have to do more and now we have to do more I was a traditional rep. I was a I was a sales rep So, you know, I'd put my tie on and I would go out and knock on doors and things like that I'm like, this is not going to work like it's just not working I go in and the company say yeah We love your product. It's it solves all these problems. Like well, why aren't you buying it? Well because nobody knows what it is and I'm like, okay There has to be something different that that is that we do and that's you know, that's kind of how we that's how We started it was it was out of desperation so I Think that's really interesting because like I I like to read books about marketing and business and things like that and you Oftentimes read stories of even direction like hey you if you're building a brand you have to be different You have to do something that's very Contrary is not the right word, but you have to stand out in some way like we were talking about this before the show Like big-ass fans for example, like they are very different in just their name You know and you could have that thought and that strategy purely from reading these books and there's companies have done that But you did it out of like I'm not selling anything Yeah, and you attributed it to the fact that you didn't stand out Was that the issue or did you just say hey, let's try this out and then people responded and then you leaned into it So it's it's interesting that you said about reading the book because that's exactly what I was doing So again, I you know, I am a Verocious reader like I love knowledge and I love learning new things and I read a book by Author called named Sally Hogshead is called fascinate. Oh, yeah, it's great book. Oh, so you've read it Yeah, so her big thing is different is better than better, right? So I was going out and trying to show people that my product was better and they're like, yeah, okay, great I had to show that it was different. I had to go out and and do something different I had to be different now some of the big brands in the window and door industry started to understand this, right? And they're starting to get their digital presence up a little bit We were one of the first ones again seven years ago. Nobody was doing this in the window and door industry and so As we came out we were if you were on LinkedIn, you know as a We were coming up on your feet because nobody else was doing anything, right? So if you were if you were on Facebook if you even just you know Trying to get the the ad words for window screens and stuff like that like we were grabbing really really cheap digital real estate because nobody else was doing anything with that so But yeah, we we made the the very conscious decision to be different. I mean and again if you look at You know our brand, you know, it's me with a baseball cap and a t-shirt on You know the the tattoos showing again just these things that are so non-traditional Because our brand is non-traditional and so we just went all in on it You know, what's what's interesting about this too, Joe is like we oftentimes talk to manufacturers And we're helping them with their value prop and how they present and they'll go Hey, well our product performs 10% better in this environment And like we I sometimes feel like the bearer bad news because we're like nobody cares like Yeah, it's not enough it has to be exponentially better or just complete game changer in order for somebody to go You know what? I'm gonna try something new because you know this if you're a contractor or an architect or a builder You don't like new you don't because it introduces risk It introduces variability to the process at which you've developed It has to be so different that you're like a light bulb has to go off in order for somebody. Oh, yeah I want to try that So that goes back to Joe you were saying, you know, you guys started these incredible videos just to get people's attention Like whatever was weird you were having good conversations and like so close to making the sale But when it came to oh, this is new. I can't be the first one. Where did you start to see that change? When did you start to get some velocity? behind getting multiple deals in a row it was when our Message started getting to our customer's customer That was the the key was getting beyond the window manufacturers to showing the window our main business At that point was selling to window manufacturers. So we weren't doing any retail anything like that But we had to get our message we had to jump the window manufacturers because the window manufacturers had absolutely No incentive to bring something new to their to their manufacturing process They you know, yes, it solved problems for them But not enough again, maybe it was the 10% of problems or 15% or whatever the case may be it wasn't enough for them to put the effort into Getting my message to their customers who then would have to get it to to the to the homeowners and so we started doing webinars again This is all you know six seven years ago zoom was Brand new we were the first like people in the industry to start doing things like this And so we would go to a window manufacturer and say look, you know It's fine that that you're not getting this demand How about if we just put it out to your dealers? If nothing else you're going to try to bring value to them and show them that there is something new that there is that you Are trying to be innovative, but it's going to take them to partner with you to be innovative So the way that we want to do that is we're going to introduce Joe virtually to your entire team So wherever you are in the world you can log on you can drive down the drive down the the the road Have Joe open on your screen and your team can ask him questions and get the full presentation And so that was that was really really big But then through those efforts some of our videos and stuff like that went viral which was which was helpful I mean we had a we had a tiktok video again We're a window screen company on tiktok We have a tiktok video that had got millions of views and it was just one of our interns like you know We were dancing and they they were they were squeezing it and it had like that's spongebob, you know in the background and But again now we had hundreds of videos that didn't do very well, but we had a couple that went really really big and And then so then we started getting attention from homeowners And then that attention from the homeowners brings demand to the window dealers the window dealers bring demand to the window manufacturers and any digital marketing and you guys know this but for the people that are listening you have to figure out who the real audience is Because sometimes you don't know who the real odd you think that it's the person that you're selling to when it's actually not and And so that was again that was a big paradigm shift for us. I was the sales guy We made a big shift from sales to marketing and and that is that is Huge to understand that there's a huge difference between sales and marketing and when you become a marketing company Your message becomes more important than than your product and in a lot of ways Well, even to like I've and I'm a little bit of a nerd in this way I've followed you all for a couple of years. I remember I would check your site And I can't believe I'm sharing this with you I would check your site and you all would make optimizations and little things to like your checkout cart Yeah, like I don't know if you know I don't even know if you know this job Like you probably do but like there were points where you would ask people up front Hey, you want to buy our window screen? What size do you need and then there was a change where I saw you didn't even ask That until after you made a purchase and I was like, that's really smart because you're you're removing Any kind of friction points any kind of issues? You're just focusing purely on the outcome and that's a very marketing, you know first approach to organization I know we're talking about tiktok videos But even in how people buy your product, you know as an consumer you're focusing on What's the experience and is it feel easy because that's also what you're selling to it's like if you say your product is better And it's easier, but then buying from you is difficult. Well, those two things don't align You're absolutely right. That was a strategic thing what we were again I'm a data person is as crazy as it sounds, you know with all of our marketing stuff we do I love data and you know when you have when you have somebody that can go and get into the data of your website and see where Consumers stop it became really obvious like we could get them to our site. No problem at all We get them there. We actually get them through they would actually watch the videos They would do all this stuff Then they would watch how to measure for the screens because we needed them to in the original Original e-commerce site. They had to measure first then they would go in and and do the check out And they would just stop we would just lose them at that point. Oh, yeah So I'm not measuring anything. Yeah, well or um, I we weren't the candy bar at the checkout, right? Right, right hundred percent. It's very easy for a homeowner to go. I need a new screen. Oh flex screen That looks really cool. Let me buy one. You could not buy our screens From the toilet man, and that sounds terrible, right? No, that's great You couldn't I think that's a great bar right and that was it I'm like, hey, look if we can't if somebody's sitting down on the toilet cannot buy our product We need to figure out a way for them to be able to do that if they can't get my message on their phone and And check out and do everything from from their phone Then we missed the mark somewhere and that was the big that was the big chance I'm so glad you brought that up because like it was it feels like it was so long ago But that was a huge conversation for us was like what happens if if we Say buy now measure whenever in the heck you want And that was huge. I mean it just it it went from it went from you know consumers having literally They would have to spend 45 minutes on my website to check out to they could do it in 35 seconds, you know 40 seconds. Here's my address. Here's my credit card number and I'm out. Yeah Yeah, because what you're doing is the way I think about it is it's like You're by making it more difficult. You're solving your problem. You're not solving theirs Exactly. Yep. You're solving problem. Like well now I I don't I now I have to go figure out your size That's a you problem. You should go figure that out for them or make it on their terms and too many people They're down to sit. Yeah, yep And so we would have people You know and we've seen this again We we see the data they'll go on and they'll they will buy our screens in the fall when they're taking their You know, they're cleaning their windows for the winter and stuff like that And they actually don't get their the order delivered. They don't they don't want them until spring They'll measure them, you know Five months later. And so they have that order live. They've they've already ordered a couple of them They just don't want them now. They don't want to measure them They don't want them sitting in their basement And so we actually see a big uptick of orders But not fulfillment in the fall Again, it's it's crazy to think about that But if you're not looking at the data and you don't understand what you're looking at You can you can miss what your consumers are telling you by their ordering patterns So and again, you guys you guys know this because you're you're in that I'm totally gonna put that in the presentation. I know I'm gonna put this in presentation Like can can your audience buy their product from the toilet? Oh, yeah, be prepared to hear that on a regular basis, but isn't it again, it's so it's so simple But it's profound. It's it's amazon, right? Yeah Jeff Bezos, you know that he he started off with books because it was easy, right? It was something easy for him to ship But he I'm maybe I'm giving him more credit than he deserves But I feel like he saw this where you know if If a consumer can can order and get something easily no matter where they are number one They'll do it because of convenience number two. They don't care what they pay I know that I overpay for things on amazon and I don't care because I can order it from the toilet Absolutely speed I talk about all the time. I'm like Spotify killed like bit torrent and all of those other You know free music platforms not because they had a better product But because you could have music more quickly speed speed is an ultimate killer and convenience is a part of that too It is it absolutely is and so but yeah, again those little things for us are Um, we just think differently, right? I I can't think of I can't think of one other company in the windowed indoor industry That's going can I do this from the toilet? Like can I do this from the back like if that conversation came up at any windowed manufacturer or any Dealer anything like that. I would be really surprised, but we're willing to have those conversations now. Yeah, all of your listeners are gonna be like, well You know You're gonna see on a billboard by windows Well, I think there's a way though that this could apply even so let's imagine you don't have an e-com platform Because I know a lot of our listeners don't this is something that we actually talk a lot about when it comes to just a simple form fill So if you get and this is where you also goes back to jode you saying you made a shift from being a sales Organization to a marketing organization Because sales teams they want everything and their mothers made a name on that form because they want you to they want your newsletter To qualify them as a sales lead before anything else happens But to your point you're stopping so many qualified leads You're basically cutting your sales off at the knees Because you're asking the consumer Whatever the consumer is for you you're asking your audience and your customer to bear the burden Instead of get him in the funnel Reduce the friction and then let your sales whatever that looks like for you. It looks like e-com But for a lot of manufacturers, it looks like a sales team Take it from there and help drive it across the goal line And I think it's so crucial to think through what are the tweaks that we can make And then the exponential impact that you've seen on your revenue because you guys were able to risk and they're like No, we're gonna just reduce friction and if it means that we are holding these things Let's let's so be it but they've paid us money. So let's believe that they're gonna come back to it Yeah, how many times have you stopped? You know stopped looking at a website or stopped filling out a form Because it was a pain in the butt, you know every time I just want to say Every time mobile is is where people should be developing for I mean The the the amount of traffic that is moving to mobile is is astronomical, you know, and so if you don't have a Not a mobile optimized site. I'm talking about a site that is designed for mobile Like there's there's a difference, right? Like, oh, I shoved my website into this mobile You know this round peg into this square hole. That's not what we're talking about We're talking about a site that is really pleasant to use on mobile And then to your to your other point form fills there's times where I actually want to know about a product And they want so much information and it's not auto populated and I'm like screw it I'm I'm not doing this. It's not worth it. It's not worth it And it's a crazy it's a crazy shift to think about that that Well, I think it's I think it's important to know because it's like what you're saying is like it's everything is an exchange Like everything time is an exchange You're what you're doing is an exchange if you as a manufacturer or anybody in marketing Are not always giving more value in exchange for what that person is giving you you're gonna lose Yep, you know and sometimes that exchanges money sometimes it's time But to your point you're like you're making it too difficult Two people do it. I want to ask you about what you're doing now Like you mentioned, hey seven years ago. We were doing webinars. We started doing tiktok videos You have a podcast like you're doing a lot of things a lot of manufacturers want to do or think are really progressive Where are you going? Like where do you see your brand going a year or two three years down the road? What are you trying to push and plan for right now? So for us, I mean, we're still big into you know into social media Not necessarily social media marketing, but social media information, you know what I mean? So we we still do a lot and I'm still the spokesperson for for our company. So a lot of our Marketing efforts are around me and my story and even, you know behind the scenes with my family and things like that And so, you know, we we've really gotten I don't want to say away from, you know, some of the things that got us to where we are now We're just maturing a little bit and so now, you know, we got on shark tank So again the crazy videos and stuff got us attention, right? So now we got on shark tank now there's a there's this Joe the entrepreneur story and background that we're we're really doing a lot to concentrate on because Again, we don't have to concentrate on our product as much anymore And and showing the features and benefits of it now people are just interested in What makes this company tick and who's that guy behind it? I go into meetings now Where people because we have so many connections on LinkedIn I think I have a hundred thousand connections or something like that on on LinkedIn or followers And and so which is a lot of the people in our industry And so I'll go into meetings and they're like, hey Your your grandson was so cute, you know going down the slide and they feel this connection with me Even though I've never met them before right? So I don't necessarily feel that for them But they feel this towards me Which is making it's it's this Soft sell introduction For them to feel some sort of intimacy That makes my job easier as I'm trying to get them to Consider using our our product. We're moving more into the personal side of of our brand Then the product side. Well, I think that I think that's interesting You you mentioned that too because like I think you and I met at a an event you were you and I both spoke at and You started the event by I mean they hyped you up and all your shark tank and all your success and everything And the first thing you did was you told the story about how you hit your You hit your own face and that like what'd you do you hit yourself in the face with your arm or something like that? Yeah, yeah, I had a big cast on my arm and oh, yeah, you like bounce yourself on your head or something like that And I was like, I was like, this is really great because you're in smart sales tactic and marketing But you're humanizing yourself. You're making it more approachable You're making the brand of of joe as well as flex screen feel approachable And I think a lot of brands they feel very standoffish too And what you're saying is like no you can connect with me on an emotional level as well as on a product level And you're seeing a lot of brands do this. I mean, it's like exactly what the shark tank guys do They're now leveraging their presence as a person to now Go do that with other brands that they then support like I just saw a commercial with Mr. Wonderful He's like doing something with rocket mortgage or something. I don't know some lender, you know and people feel connection to him It's the same thing of what you're doing But a lot of brands are afraid of that Because they're afraid of like the unscripted moments Like well, what if I mess up or what if that person says something that puts our brand in a bad light? And I think that's the antithesis of where brands and you know consumers want, you know, where they want to go Consumers are making a big shift into they want to buy from people They don't want to buy from companies as much anymore and and that is Again, if if you as a listener if you're listening to this if you're not Understanding that if you're if you're still putting out pictures of the jobs that you've done On your social media, like you're missing what the consumers want. They want they want to feel a connection They want to feel trust. They want to feel that You know that you're somebody that they want to do business with and again and in our instance It's the the the little bit You know non-traditional side of things, you know the the tattoos and the hats and you know the the fun things that we're doing I'm loud, you know, and I'm loud in our videos those types of things That's not for everybody if that's not your personality, then don't do that But but show who you are and why a consumer wants to buy from you And you as a as a person you as a as a company You don't need a figurehead, but your company needs an identity And and so many so many companies in the window and door industry don't have an identity They they haven't put the the effort into doing that And I really think that they're missing the mark I think what you're saying is really important and I think it's important to showcase the success that flex screen has had In doing exactly what you're doing because I can hear I can hear the objections in the back of my head Right because we have these conversations regularly about the importance of building a brand to further Your company building a brand as a major part of growing your sales And I hear the objections, but it's also Why that when you try to introduce a persona within your brand it can feel inauthentic because it's not Really who you are. It's just kind of like generic homeowner couple standing in front of a window and door Versus actually having a brand that I can identify with That I would talk about that I would remember that I want to align with that I trust Not just like really good-looking people standing In or around your products like that's not what we're talking about here there's a guy that um that I'm I'm connected with on on LinkedIn And uh, he just sent me like a request out of nowhere and he's a window washer in michigan Right and he happened to come across our screens when he was watching when he was watching So he kind of got a hold of me. I love his content. He he washes windows This is all he does he goes out and washes people's windows, right? And if he was in pittsburgh if he was where I live he would wash my windows He would wash every single window of every one of our factories if I could get him to do it Because he is just a personable guy. He goes out. He's like, hey, I'm here today Look how great the weather is and and he he'll play some music and he'll dance a little bit and and he just He just has fun and that's his personality But I want to buy from him even though you know But Yeah, I mean it's just Man that you you have to have you have to have something that you that you as a company Represent and it can't just be this is what I sell it. It's just not enough anymore It isn't I mean I think about the brands we look at in the building product space Like I think about tecoblock and like how they They've got paper peat or I think about was it sure williams or benjamin moore that had that one guy Beth Sherman williams sure williams. Yeah, do you hear about that job? Well, now it's now it's florida paints Yeah, florida paint. Did you hear about that? There was a guy I know what is that guy on tiktok beth You tell the story. You know better than me. So there's this guy. His name is tony He worked for sure when williams, but he started a tiktok profile and it's literally him mixing paint And all of his videos were going viral. I have seen this fascinating to watch So sure when williams found out that tony was had a tiktok huge tiktok presence and they fired him I did hear this. Yep. So what happened is there ended up being effectively like a bidding war amongst smaller paint companies To get tony to come work for them because they saw the value of basically free advertising to literally millions of people every single day He now works for florida paint We're actually having him on the podcast later this year because we're so fascinated by his story But he now works for florida paint and launched a sub brand of paints called tonester paints Underneath the florida paints like they have reaped such incredible benefits and he does the same thing I follow him because it's mesmerizing. It's just literally like I wonder what the sunrise would look like Let's make paint that looks like skittles and it's just like pouring things in mixing it and I watch it every time I'm a total fool for these videos, but it's me and millions of people So I don't feel so bad to your points act though That's somebody that people identify with and believe in and I I mean, I'm a I'm a You know a survey of one But I would never have considered florida paints before like as a homeowner if I'm read if I was repainting my whole house I don't really feel like florida paints would have been on the map But now Because I follow toni. I would totally consider them You want his his signature brand? I want toni stuff like yep I'm I believe in toni the brand and toni believes in florida paints I also think it's really cool that he launched a paint brand with them not competing against them Which I'm sure is partly what sure when williams was worried about but Anyway, I mean, it's just a really great example of Yeah, bringing a person into the brand. Well, and it is it's a great example of that But it's also a great example of give me a reason to buy from you, right? So all things being equal, right? So sure when williams florida paint, you know Whatever the Lowe's brand or home depot or whatever Let's just say that they're all price similar They're all they're all very similar like I said one might be 10% better But I'm not going to know the know the difference, right? So give me a reason to buy from you And that could be toni, right? That's that's that's you're entertaining I like you and so I want to buy from from you And and there's so many I've had lots of conversations with you know, again I'm in the window and door industry so window dealers They're like, how can I take what you do and and do it the same? And I'm like you can't you can't do the same thing as me, right? But you can give your your potential Your potential consumers a reason to buy from you You know one one example that I use with them and I use this over and over and over again I'm like become an expert like go out and show a job and don't say here's the before and after pictures Oh, nobody cares about before and after pictures and I'm sorry like I just you just don't like yes You go. Oh, that's pretty that's great. But like here's the problem that they had they had drafts in their house Their their their expenses were really really high. Mrs. Jones called us in Here's what I was here's what I was seeing and you you go through and you actually Show the homeowner that might be looking at windows sometime in the future like hey, here's all the things Um, you know, we tried some things that you know went through some options Here's some different things that we could try but what it came down to is We just had to replace her windows like oh, look here's what happened because she had a leak Look how this is rotted out and you become this expert in your Geography and that gives a that gives a homeowner a reason to buy from you all again white rectangles or white rectangles I mean, there's there's a lot of companies that buy white rectangles that go into Into holes and walls give me a reason to buy from you And that's that's where social media is so Effective and can get your message across so effectively and so cheaply If you do it right Well, I think you had a really good point there, joe is like a lot of listeners are probably listening to this going shoot I need to do What joe is doing and in some regards I do but they can't they can't do exactly what you're doing because You're you and they're them and I think that that's important to know is like There are things about your brand that are really interesting and it's your responsibility to find a way to like you said Help them solve that problem be that solution to them in an entertaining educational way And you don't have to copy you because you can't there's a there's a quote of Arnold Schwarzenegger somebody told him like they're like, oh, I I would never want to be like you and he was like Don't worry. You never could Yeah Yeah, and like and I know it's like a little bit of an ego hit but like it's funny because it's like Like people can't be joe, but they can be themselves and they can find ways to develop their brand in a way that resonates with people It makes them want to buy from them And I think that's the important point is to risk that personality because People if you want to get them to try something or do something different you have to you have to risk along with them you know And the the risk is that that's the that's the key right and when it comes to A lot of a lot of companies The risk that they are afraid of is personal embarrassment Let's just be honest like that's that is the biggest risk that somebody is trying to to not undertake Is them being embarrassed and let me tell you I have had I've had companies in our industry. I've had family members. I've had all these people come up Why are you making a full load of yourself? Why are you doing this? I'm like Because I want attention because that's the only way that my company is going to survive is if I get attention And I'm not afraid to to embarrass myself to get that intent now again I never go out to embarrass myself, but my team They put out some embarrassing I do embarrassing things in front of the camera and I don't always want them to get out in the wild and they Put it out, but it humanizes me and and there's a purpose for it and and it's okay But you have to get past that you have to get past the This is what will my aunt Susie who I see once a year at Christmas think about me Who in the heck cares like go out and do the right thing for your company Do the right thing for your employees do the right thing for your family and take some of those risks I get really passionate about that because that's that's something that comes up all the time Like I could never do that. No, you don't want to do it. That's the difference. So you can do it You feel uncomfortable doing it and There was a there was a quote that I love says you will be freed from Worrying about what other people think of you when you realize how little they do and And right, yeah, absolutely And it's one of those things like we think that's something that we put out on social media is the biggest thing in the world Whether it's good or bad or embarrassing I scan right by it like, you know, like Whatever, you know, it's no big deal until something catches my attention and now I'm now I'm interested. I'm intrigued now I'm engaging and so That's the that's the biggest hurdle when it comes in my opinion It's it's it's not the the cost of hiring a digital agency. You should 100 everybody should have a digital agency that they're working with No doubt in my mind. There should be somebody managing helping you to manage your online presence Um, but it's the it's the getting over that hump of allowing myself to be exposed in in In this way and they just can't get past it It's true Man, Joe, this has been awesome. I feel like we were talking about this before the show like we could talk for hours about this We could For listeners, if they want to I know we do need a part two Yeah, um for listeners, if they want to follow you they want to connect with you. They want to buy A flex screen. What's the best way for them to do that? If if they're want to engage with me, I'm joel teary.com. So it's j o e a l t i e r i dot com Again, let me tell you how having a vanity url. I hated that. I absolutely hated it But it's important, you know, we we do I do blog posts. I do videos, you know, we have podcasts all that stuff So, um, again, I'm putting myself out there for all that you guys are listening But then if you want to know more about flex screen, it's just flex screen dot com You know, we definitely love to to have anybody reach out to us on either of those platforms It's great. Joe, man, this has been awesome. Can't thank you enough and I think you're a huge inspiration to People industry that want to get better. They want to push the brand further They want to stand out and really appreciate you taking time to share with us And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this content, make sure you go to venvio.com slash podcast to subscribe to get more Until next time, I'm zack wayhams alongside beth megalov. Thanks everybody