 Our work is going to be a great problem. Perfect. Can you make sure the... Make sure it's done with the... This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community matters here. Ten seconds. Three, two... It is a noon hour on Thursday, folks. Ted Rawson here in our Think Tech Hawaii studios overlooking downtown Honolulu. Locally transported to Wamanawa Bay or Kailua Bay right about now. But anyway, with our show, Where the Drone Leads, we talk about subjects related to technology, science, the future, and all things that drones bring into the picture. And today they're bringing into the picture two guys who we've had some interesting discussions with lately. One has been a frequent flyer on this show for several years, Greg Nakano. Thanks for coming on board again. And Paul Haddock, first time on this show. I believe, Paul. Your show, yes, sir. All right. He's been in the studio many times, but the first time on this show. And Paul is president and CEO of the Resources for Education and Learning here on Honolulu. Heavily involved in awareness and situational planning and such in the western Pacific. And Greg, what do we say about Greg? He's an educational Ph.D. student at UH, recent graduate in geosciences, I believe. Yes, sir. Former Marine and always a Marine, right? How it goes. And a fantastic connector of people and a generator of ideas, three steps ahead of the rest of us. Greg, we're always in your wake watching you move and catching onto things that come out in that wake every now and then and trying to make something out of them. But I tell you, my appreciation for knowing you for three or four years is just outstanding and great aloha for the things you've been doing here for us in Hawaii. So anyway, what we're doing is talking about the role of drones and the technology associated with that in the future of something really important for all of us, that being climate change and its effect, its consequences not just here in Hawaii, but in the western Pacific. And so catch us up to date. The last time we had you on the show, I think we talked about upcoming opportunities in Micronesia that were associated with this. And we have with us Paul, who has been the educational director in Micronesia and other roles for 25 years. So we're here on the show. Greg, tell us what we're up to and where we're going. Thank you. I mean, I guess the biggest thing is we started this conversation a couple years ago and we talked about the possibility of using drones to map climate change around the world, specifically in the small Pacific islands. And so at that time it was just a concept. And then in July, we had Chuck Devaney and we got on the show again and we talked about the NASA EPSCORE grant and the possibility of getting it. We had just submitted it, I guess about a month or two ago we found out that we actually got the grant. And so now it looks like University of Hawaii will be working with University of Guam and College of the Marshall Islands to begin developing a local capacity to use drones to map climate change impacts on both groundwater discharge, agriculture, and coastal erosion. Or whatever shows up. Or whatever shows up. And that's where kind of Paul comes in is I was lucky enough to meet Paul. April or May. April May. And since then I've learned so much about the Pacific Islands and what he's been doing is really taking all his 25 plus years of experience in the region, Micronesia, Palau, Marshall Islands, and then connecting them with the stakeholders here in Hawaii. And so we're hoping that the NASA EPSCORE grant that you really help kind of blueprint or brainstorm together is going to be able to connect UH and Hawaii stakeholders back to the Pacific region. Just in that one paragraph alone, Greg, you hit a whole bunch of key words. NASA isn't something you would normally find associated with cultural evolution on the western Pacific Islands, but that's happened. And there's all kinds of interesting overtones associated with that. But you also mentioned climate change and the observation of the effects. And Paul and I were talking before the show. Anybody who lives there knows the effects. It's those who aren't there who don't see them. And it's the modeling and understanding of what the future has in it that we have to all think about and deal with. And your perception, as Greg said, has got to be unique after having spent 25 years in that environment. But tell us, Paul, how you think we need to think about the future in order to inform that future, inform ourselves, assimilate, and get ready for action? Well, we say that we're the canary in the mind. We the Marshall Islands and the Federal States of Micronesia were the ones that noticed our beaches are gone. Our houses are flooding. I was just telling you, I was down there staying in a hotel in Koshry and every afternoon between two and three, the tide would come in and flood every room. We had to vacate until the tide went out. That was a first that hadn't been happening before. So we see the technology now of let's measure, using the drones, to measure what is happening at what speed because not all islands are the same. You've got the low-lying Atoll Islands. You've got the volcanic islands, which are higher. You've got islands with rich mangrove forests and some that have none and they're all changing at different rates. This is the time that we're behind schedule, but it's perfect time to start measuring how quickly is this taking place. As I mentioned to you, we don't care why it's happening. We just know that it is. And I think we can learn a lot from measuring what's taking place in the Marshalls and the Federal States of Micronesia. So that's really interesting. When your feet get wet, you've personalized the situation and now what are we ready to do? What are we ready to think about and plan for? Because you can't just simply get up and move. There's no place to move. If you try to move somewhere, you're going to bump into somebody else who's already there. So we've got some serious head-scratching here to work this out. But in addition to assimilating it, getting the measures of what's actually happening and being able to forecast in relatively near-term that can be confirmed is going to be an important factor here. Yeah, and it's difficult because we know historically there have been times of higher highs if you look at coral growth in some of these islands where you can see coral above the water. Is this a cyclical thing? We haven't been measuring long enough to know a lot of these things. Again, to the islanders, we don't care about the academics of it. We just know that as the water comes in, suddenly our tarot doesn't grow anymore because of the salt has invaded to the ground level. We need to start measuring how fast this is going to continue while we start coming up with ideas because as you mentioned, and I hear this all the time, why can't they just move? These islands are 2, 3, 4 square miles in size. Land belongs to everybody and has for generations. You just don't pick up and move to a different place which belongs to someone else. That's not the easy answer. None of us have the answer yet, but we need to get a better grip on how quickly this is going to continue to take away huge chunks of beaches, huge chunks of our houses and our farms and then what do we do about it? What's interesting is that Greg we'll have to ask you in a moment here, but Greg lives about three steps ahead of the rest of us. I can handle maybe one step and that step is the one you suggested. Let's go measure, let's go model, let's go simulate and let's go make forecasts as to where things might go with bands of reliability and then check them versus real events. So we can do that. So the first step is to find stops at the end of that first level of expression because you and the others who actually have that real life experience on the islands are going to have to be the ones who guide what to do about it. Until we even know how quickly it's happening, we don't know what that next step is. So I think the technology you're bringing to bear is a perfect starting step to get a better idea. And Hawaii isn't far behind but Punapuna floods every time is a high tide down there and Waikiki is beginning to see that effect. I don't know that we've necessarily had to close hotels while people leave until the tide washes out, but it's probably coming. And certainly in Lanikai, in Kailua, in the North Shore there's immense erosion. It's just Kahala Beach over here in Kahala. Same thing. So the issues are there. In fact that's probably a piece that ties us together. The geophysical aspect of this has got to be similar between here and the western Pacific Islands as long as the structure of the islands is the same. So there's a common tie here that we could all work on. And again, my mind turns to that. The Islanders, their mind turns to what do I do tomorrow? And what do I do about what I've planted? What do I do about what I need to plant next year? And my possessions and my things. This is not something we're designed to face. We're not seeing normally as rapid a change as this and a threat growing that fast to us all. And one of the things we bring up that will impact here, the first place while those Islanders are moving when they do leave, they're coming here to Oahu. They're entering the school systems and the healthcare systems. So the impact down there will not just be felt with coastal erosion. It's also going to be felt in your economy and your education system as the situation there becomes more and more untenable. So working with them in advance to get them ready to live in Oahu in our style and our culture and what our education systems like and making them preset for that future occurrence is going to be an important. That's the second step. And Greg probably has one step beyond that that he's thinking about. If you can't remember what it is, Greg, I'll tell you what it is. Well, I think what we're talking about is part of the challenge in Paul mentioned education. So a lot of the students come to Hawaii from Micronesia or Marshall Islands and they're estimated two to four grade years behind their local based Hawaii peers. The cost of the COFA students coming here to Hawaii has been increasing at about 9% every year since 2011 from about 58 million in 2011 to about 93 million in 2015. If you track that out, it looks like it'll be about $150 million extra that the state of Hawaii will be spending on COFA students coming from those climate stressed areas. So in a way there's a win-win, there's a lose-lose but there's also a win-win. So the lose-loses we do nothing they can't adapt as quickly to their situation and then they're forced to move from their homes. Then we have to accommodate them and the schools suffer. There's a win-win here too. If we take this NASA Epsquare grant and then we're able to help work with the local kids take them out of the schools and get them on the ground doing STEM project based learning where they're actually using the drones where they're actually learning science by flying the drones, designing drones and then seeing what the real-world applications are of mapping and climate change and data modeling and things like that. Well then by the time they reach Hawaii not only are they caught up to their local Hawaii peers but they're actually leading their class where it comes to DEM mapping or flying drones or 3D CAD design or all these other things. So that's potentially the win-win where when they arrive they're not unable to be employed or homeless they're actually teaching what the experiences are there and canary in the coal mine like you said earlier is actually leading the exit out of the coal mine so that everyone gets some fresh air. So that is the third step. That's the step beyond just the measurement. That's the step of a sort of a very well enriched assimilation into the culture here in leading it because we need that in order for Hawaii to prepare. So what does it take to do that? How long does it take? And what level of resources does it take to get some kind of a program like that going? Not being a professional in the education domain as are you and as are you coming up? What are we looking at? Five years, three years? What do we do? I think this could start immediately. I think we pick a pilot school one on Majuro, one on Evi, Koshuaiponpe Chukyap, maybe even Palaf. So five or six schools. We give them a couple of drones at a high school. I ascribe to the spoonful of sugar style of teaching. You can sit a student inside a classroom, give them a big textbook and bore him to death or you can say let's go outside with a drone. And he'll learn the same way and have a lot more fun and we just start teaching them how to fly them, how to measure the outside of the islands, how to measure from high tide to low tide, the differences. You're doing science, you're doing math, you're doing all sorts of education, but you're not telling them they're doing that. They're just learning and you just start collecting this data on a regular basis and we find some central point to send it back into that they're using that data. I just say when you talk about how do you start, you just start. Let's pick some good schools down there. Let's get them some drones and let's just see what happens. That's pretty cool. In fact, we said drone about six or eight times which is a requirement on this show since it's about drones. So we've I think satisfied that requirement pretty well. NASA EPSCOR grant several times. We should just mention Dr. Thelmarat Asimov at UH who was the big part of that major part of that effort getting it going and I want to congratulate him and you and the others who are on our advisory team for that and NASA itself, that is an incredible grant that has a lot of utility coming out of it even if the science never works the basis of getting the functionality that you spoke of up and running and installed, implanted and started is a win and take away for the community with technology left behind, capability left behind at the current status level. If the science we're putting in there also works, it just gets better. But nobody there's no way you can lose on that particular piece of work. That is an incredible piece and so NASA in this case with arcane forms of targeting guidance navigation and control technology produces something that is extremely useful in the human domain and remains behind after the contracts all gone. So let's talk about that particular grant a little bit more and how we're going to execute it which is the steps that Paul is talking about and there's some other things that fit in the picture that are happening recently as well. Actually get back from our one minute break. Aloha, my name is Mark Shklav. I'm the host of think tech Hawaii's law across the sea. Law across the sea comes on every other Monday at 11am please join us. I like to bring in guests that talk about all types of things that come across the sea to Hawaii. Not just law, love people, ideas history please join us for the law across the sea. Aloha. Hi, I'm Ethan Allen, host of likeable science on think tech Hawaii. Every Friday afternoon at 2pm I hope you'll join me for likeable science where we'll dig into science, dig into the meat of science, dig into the joy and delight of science. We'll discover why science is indeed fun, why science is interesting, why people should care about science and care about the research that's being done out there. It's all great, it's all entertaining so I hope to join me for likeable science. It is still the noon hour on Thursday folks. Ted Rawlson here with our guests, Greg Nakano and Paul Haddock talking about resources, climate change and the work in the challenge out there in the western Pacific islands in in Hawaii. We're talking just before the break about this term EBSCORE we used, a NASA grant program in a quite incredible way. We normally think of NASA as going to the moon or flying to something like this. Here we're talking about NASA assisting in dealing with and accommodating climate change which is a pretty darn incredible thing. I'd also like to suggest that in addition to the western Pacific, there's another island within our general knowledge called New York City that has very similar issues going on. I was just talking to the director of the parks program there who happens to be our daughter on using the parks programs in New York City to bring awareness and communication and assimilation and personal connection to the citizens and the students of New York just as we're speaking about on UBI. So there's a potential tie in here between the methods they're using in the educational system in New York and how the parks fit in there and what we're doing here. Hadn't thought about that we had a long conversation this morning but I'd like to hook up Paul with Bonnie and get a conversation going about that in fact that also fits our conversation this week with the Climate Change Council here. So back to the NASA grant and Delmarin Asimov at UH in this extreme connection we have a science project which is about a different means of motion management in unmanned air systems where the motion is more like how a piloted aircraft is considered by the pilot on a sort of a multi-dimensional axis of rotation means of motion measurement and then once you measure the motion you can manage it and get it where you want it to get to. Ideally the idea is to have the command and control system in the UAV be much more useful to the task at hand which is autonomous operations in a complex environment and we have to get past where we are today with our relatively inefficient means of command and control. They're kind of herky-jerky and they're automatic but they're not autonomous they can't think for themselves and they lack a set of waypoints but they can't figure out what waypoint to go to and they can't self-optimize we have to change the motion management piece that's what the science essence of this is all about but what does it apply to? It applies to extreme conditions in the western Pacific islands in the hands of people who may not have had any scientific training in the analysis of the methods but we've got to make these things functional and reliable and safe if we start relying on these systems if we're using them to manage our our infrastructure and our lives we have to have them reliable so there's that whole aspect of it that comes in and the benefit is systems that do the job a lot better than what they do today and so Delmarad had this contract of this grant opportunity we tied in with Greg and the Pacific island connection and it was a magic combination that worked in the eyes of NASA so I have to pinch myself every day to remember this is not about developing airplane wings or something like that or going to Mars this is about helping current society and so that's pretty incredible so if you can outline for us Greg what the work scope is and how this is going to proceed let our audience know how this is going to unfold Sure I am not the rocket scientist so I mean that's Dr Asimov and you know certified rocket scientist sent you know the Mars rover and things like that when you contacted me and when I talked to Dr Asimov really what we were looking for was you have all this really complicated technology so the question is as you're developing it what is the use case that the average person on the ground can see the benefit and so from what I understand there's three different test cases the two others that I'm not directly working with are the coffee plantations here in the state of Hawaii and then University of Guam is looking at how do they use drones to map submarine groundwater discharge through different types of sensors the Marshall Islands test case what we're trying to do is I think it's relatively simple and I think there's you know a long history of doing it it's just help the people on the ground themselves have a better sense of the environment around them and then use drones fly them in such a way that they can map the changes over time so to the best of my knowledge when we had the mayor of eBuy here and we had some of a step they do not have any electronic maps showing elevation of OC level that's from everything at least they don't have it we have cartographic maps but not three-dimensional landform we don't have indication of any kind of slump issues or landslide forecast and this sort of thing so if all you're dealing with is a paper map it's very difficult to do any kind of forecasting or kind of projection on what 5 centimeter, 15 centimeter sea level rise is going to do to your critical infrastructure to have the kids actually build the map themselves one already they're invested in the product but then two there's a sense of ownership when they're looking at sea level rise impacts on their power plants on their freshwater systems that then cause them or hopefully causes them to take action to either prevent that or to build back better or to look for other resources or other ways to manage those negative impacts putting up sea walls isn't one of the answers I suspect and moving moving into a different location on that is not a reasonable approach with sea walls the ocean tends to win it's got a really good trial cracker when it comes to those things and again there's not empty land like Oklahoma you just up and move Islanders don't do things that way all the land belongs to families and clans you've got your relatives buried there you've got your farms there you've got food for weekends it's not that simple that you just move and so the other thing you can do is reconstructing of the landscape to the extent possible with the plantings and with water management and things like this as long as you do them in a positive way and I brought this copy this came to mail recently a magazine out of the center of excellence here at Pacific Command and I just thought just the basic subject here regional cooperation and disaster management we've got here and at the other end of the spectrum obligations we have extend to going and dealing with disasters when they occur and so as much coordination as much integration of thinking that can reach all the way to the most remote local resident is really assisting it really assists in that potential protection that provided here by the Pacific Command when needed so you've done some incredible work that only you could have done I think Greg the military academy is in on this as well as sort of your own homemade preparation for what you're going to face in the future as an officer in that area well the idea behind getting the next generation ready is kind of goes back to you know what Paul has been doing for the past 25 years it's that the people who are going to have to deal with the massive changes of sea level rise are really the ones in elementary school middle school and high school today because the worst changes are probably not going to hit for another 25 years so the earlier we can expose them to both the vulnerabilities risk threats as well as the tools to solve or mitigate those impacts the better they're going to be prepared rather than waiting you know for 25 30 years don't let them get the basic science down pat and then just spring it on them all right now you're in charge that's probably not a recipe for success okay but again you brought the US military academies into the picture as about the earliest level you can get them which is the entry level to the academies which is an important piece of having our future officers of being aware of something outside what they would normally get from their own training in this emerging situation I think and to the military's credit the military has really been looking at climate change given in a hard look for the past 10-15 years so center for naval analyses came out with some of the very first studies I know there's a center for climate change in DC that's also climate and security that's in DC that's kind of working on these issues but developing a sort of an institutional education and training curriculum is something that's still in this very that's the fourth step right we have to limit Darryl Wong to three bright ideas on this show so we'll have to limit you to some maybe you've already taken us into what that fourth dimension might be a whole new curriculum and a whole new thought process associated with this well it's sort of like World War 1 when you had combustion engines and you had the airplane and you know General Mitchell was saying airplanes are going to change warfare and instead there are people who are still buying bridles, bits and saddles because they wanted to have a better calvary so that's the question is what is warfare going to look like in the 21st century it's going to be cyber and it's going to be climate change and it's going to be access to resources and it's one of the most practical factors is if the Navy or Coast Guard has to go in to take care of a rescue or something and the docks won't hold them anymore because they've been submerged then that's something we have to think about and Paul last word for you sir but this time around you mentioned getting started getting out there and getting going how would you envision an educational team to look like that would be built up and equipped to go off and address a group of kids? I think the first thing because in the islands we're very hands on with our learning the kids will learn the technology but it would be nice to get a group we pick some schools we get out there with a team of people with some drones just maybe a summer camp like you've been doing at eBuy to teach the kids how to use the drone just to fly them and crash a few in a couple of trees we learn how to use them and then come up with some projects where they do the parameters here's what the project will be here's let them take ownership from then on and then we can start mapping the outsides of these islands again because all the islands are different what does it do when there's a mangrove there what happens when there's a broken reef or a solid reef how does it over the course of a year do a 12 month study of what it looks like and the kids put together the report and it's their school system everything is involved in it they're writing, they're reading, they're studying they're asking questions and answering them my thing is, I've learned out there we can talk about things forever and never get started the Sisyphian task is starting it let's just get started let's pick some schools and get out right now and just show up with some drones I can name the schools for you I think you've identified the task for us and collectively we'll choose to go find some grants and we can do just that we have the escort grant, we've got to go find some more and so let's go do that we'll take it as a personal obligation to go do that and we'll connect you with New York City we'll see if we can get some thinking going on there that's common and I want to thank you gentlemen very much for being on the show Greg, freaking flyer and Paul first time but we'll see you again I'm sure thanks very much see you all next Thursday