 Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. You can go to Lovie in Japan, but you cannot become Japanese. You can go to Lovie in Germany, or Turkey, or France, but you cannot become a German, or Turk, or French. But anyone from any corner of the Earth can come to Lovie America and become an American. We'll come back to a nation of immigrants. A bi-weekly talk show program featuring the life of immigrants, diversity, and inclusion. Every episode, we invite renowned immigrants come to the show to share their life stories, their immigration adventures, and their reflection on cultural diversity. Today, we are very honored to have a professor, Jiang Fang, from the University of Minnesota, Duluth, to be with us. Welcome, Professor Fang. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Wang. Thank you very much for the invitation. We are extremely honored to have you here, because you are my favorite historian. You received your PhD in history from the State University of New York. Yeah, at Buffalo, yes. At Buffalo. And you are an expert of Chinese history. And you specialize in legal history in China. Yes. And because I'm like pure coincidence, I'm also legally trained. I'm extremely interested in your research and your work. And you have pretty active in the academic community. You are the president of Chinese social scientist in the United States. And you are the former president of Chinese historians in the United States. We are very honored to have you here. And my fourth question is, I remember you told me you came to the United States in the year of 2000. That's the same year I came to this country. And could you share with us your immigration adventure? How did you come to the United States as a student, as a researcher in the year of 2000, please? OK, thank you, NMS 21, for this invitation again, for this chance to talk to you, to be a program. I came to the United States in 2000 and as a doctoral student because of that. But the dream to come to study in the United States has been a long and a dream for me. I think that most of the students in the 1980s and also cherished the dream to come to the United States. As the United States is the most powerful country in all still years. So I went to the University of Buffalo. The biggest reason is that I got the full scholarship of five years in the scholarship from the university. That's pretty cool, yeah. My handful of university I applied because application fees are quite expensive at that time. So I chose only the cheapest university to apply. So UB, that's the acronym of the University of Buffalo. And they gave me the full scholarship and they are very impressed by my experience as a worker and a businessman and also a journalist. That's why I went there. But at first I applied for the University of Buffalo to study in American history because my master degree in China is also in American diplomatic history. And I'm a specialist on Woodrow Wilson and 20th president of America, yeah. And he's a foreign policy toward China, Mexico and other, and a wood one. So that's his, but after I came to arrive at the University of Buffalo, my dissertation advisor, in the field of professor Roger DeForge, he's a main specialist. And he encouraged me to change my, like a major in a field and to Chinese legal history. That's why I moved shift to my major. And I tend to love that, that's major. And a new direction, that's Chinese legal history. Then because of my, I published an article in 2002, just two years after I arrived and then I published several books on that topic. So that's his, I came, then I after I graduated in 2006, I worked temporarily at the University in Southern Missouri. Then I came to UMD in 2008, then since then. Well, both a law and Duluth, we were pretty lucky to have you and we're very lucky to have you at UM faculty. And because your research is so interesting and not many, I think your advisor made the right decision and to suggest you to change your major from William Wilson to Chinese legal history because as far as I'm aware of, there are not many scholars or researchers in the West specialized in Chinese legal history. I can probably name less than 10. And I have, I collected some books about Chinese legal history in English language, but I think it's a highly specialized area. And what do you see is a very well-attablished discipline or it is still developing? Yeah, I think you're right. There were handful for a few of American scholars in Chinese legal history. That's when I was then stepping into the center field. And yeah, I don't want to, I don't have time to talk, name some of them, but the legal history of China, that's what remains a very popular field. And in the United States and also in China. And so the reason I like this field, probably because of a grant I got tonight. So because as a historian, I want like a doctor and a scholarship was not very higher compared to an engineer and all biochemistry and those students. So I didn't have any money in the summer. That's why my advisor and I and I applied a joint program, like a grant from the law school at the University of Buffalo. How do you see? So that's why, yeah, since the grant came from the law school, I had to do some research on Chinese law. So that's my first time to do some research on Chinese law. Then after I published my first article, I found that, well, this field that just as you said before, that's very few scholars have done this field. So then I decided to write my dissertation on Chinese and petition assistant. That's a show like in Chinese. Yes. Yeah. So that's my first book kind of published in 2013. I spent almost 10 years on that book. Well, that's the beginning of my research on Chinese law. Well, it's a fascinating, the petition system is very hard to explain that to a Western audience, it's a part of the current administrative system and have a unique characteristic and have a long historical background. Anyway, because we are in the discussion of the legal history in China, and I have to quote some of my favorite historians, like Professor John King-Fearbank and Jeremy Cohen at NOIU, and you summary all the schooled Chinese studies experts in the United States have this impression and they put them in writing, which says Chinese legal history is penal and administrative in nature and developed very little civil and commercial law. Would you agree? Yeah, I think that says that's the argument first made by, oh, I forgot the, yeah, that's at Cambridge and that's a historian at Cambridge. Yeah, I forgot his name and I see that. But in his book, that's the Cambridge history on Chinese and science. I think that's the book is, oh, Niden, yeah. Yeah, Niden, yeah, he argued that the Chinese law is a kind of a penal law just includes a punishment. Then he saw, since then his argument has been criticized by legal historians such as Phillip Paul and also another one is William Harvard and Harvard. So they argued that Chinese law in history, in the dynasty also contained civil law, right? It was not just a penal law. So they gave some examples and well argued and well resourced argument on that. So I was influenced pretty much by those and argument. But my field are a little bit different from them but mostly my research, for example, like Chinese petition system and also Chinese law and power, right? That's also an intertwined with their arguments. There's a sheer lots of arguments. I cite a lot from the arguments also. I met some of them and I totally agree with them and that's the Chinese legal history is fascinating and it's not as simple as some historians like Joseph Niden have argued, right? Thank you so much. It's that's quite informational and educational. Let's change our gear a little bit and I understand you are leading a new research program Chinese in Minnesota. And we have about, I think the latest number I have is about 45,000 Chinese residents in the state of Minnesota. And that's quite a grow is we become, we're not getting the critical math yet but the way we are keep growing. And so please tell us about your project. Why you want to do a research project on Chinese in Minnesota? Yeah, thank you for the question. I think it came to my attention and of this project goes back to probably 2017 when you would first and right edit off the Chinese historical record of Chinese Americans. Then I became the second editor in chief of that kind of a journal. I don't want to see that journal what's an online collection. Then I after editing and doesn't solve articles on Chinese Americans, I want to write a book on Chinese Minnesotans and because I read it a book kind of published before probably in the 1990s, early 1990s and Chinese and Minnesotans but that book kind of is compared to today's and I was thinking that is outdated because it's covered suddenly and Chinese Minnesotans from the early 1900s to the late 1980s. And most of those Chinese came to America before 1990 as you know and many other people know and they came mostly from Taiwan, Hong Kong and some other Chinese and speaking regions like in Indonesia and Southeast Asia. So but after 1978 to China opened its door to the West again then that's more and more and Chinese from mainland China like us, right? Came here and started first to study and then we stayed to settle our family here and raise our children here and work here, right? And make Minnesota as our home. So how about those Chinese and they are more in the Chinese I think probably among the 45,000 Chinese and Minnesotans maybe a majority of them are people like us. So who is going to write dear history about dear and stories of study and working and settled down like a family raising and in Minnesota. So that says I proposed that kind of book project on Chinese Minnesotans, right? And then I'm still applying for a grant from Minnesota and a historical society but yeah, they are still at the project they're still in the review. So after the grant is approved then I will start tonight. It will be approved. If I were the historical society I would definitely prove it. It's such a heartwarming and also significant to hear you to say that to record our own history in the state of Minnesota. Minnesota is getting well-known for some not just two good reasons but the people in Minnesota and particularly the first, second generation Chinese either from the mainland or elsewhere and we have become the part of this cultural landscape in the state of Minnesota. I very much look forward to working with you and very much look forward to radio research paper. And please definitely include yourself in this book because you are one of the very pioneers to teach and research history in the state of Minnesota and that's definitely worth noting. I personally am a big fan of history. When I was a kid, a teenager I really, really wanted to become a historian but I'm just do not have the intellectual capacity and the perseverance to do that. But anyway, I still very much enjoy reading history and either funk fiction or non-fiction but I do have a quick question for you. If the time travel permits and you can travel back to one of the old Asian the dynasties in Chinese history which dynasty would you like to travel to and be settled there? Not coming back, not coming back. You have to become a resident of that dynasty, which one? I think that will be a tragedy for me because I know, I know. Very many of the dynasties. How positive are you? Yeah, I think that as far as my research tells me that is that in my first book and I cover in about 2000 years of Chinese petition system from as early as the Zhou dynasty and until today, China today. So that is a, but after I finished that book, my heart tends to be in a very cold and my mood is tend to be very pessimistic because for about 2000 years seems like those are petitioners, right? Shan Fang, right? Fang Ming was whatever and people call them in different dynasties. Different stories, almost the same, you see. Yeah, if you go back to the early Han dynasty you can find those petitioners a new down and to the emperor and all if you go back to 2010 or even today and some petitioners still in a new down to the officials and so in that regard I think kind of just in the history and all for those petitioners and also the political system in China about not much changed. So if you want me to go back and travel back and to some of the dynasties, yeah, for me if I have a choice, I will not go there. You will not go, yeah, I understand. That's a super, you know, a smart answer and I totally agree the implications. There was a couple of historians Professor Jin Guantao and Liu Qingfeng and they published, they concluded the Chinese history is a super stable system and so I close what you just said is for a thousand years history it repeats itself, very little change but now let's take a broader view and not only Chinese history but the world history as well. Three of my favorite quotes about history I'm going to share with you, I share with you with you early and I want to hear your comments on these quotations on history. The first one is from Benedetto Croci Italian-Hittorian and he said all history is contemporary history. The second one is from George Orwell, the British novelist and he said who controls the past, controls the future, who controls the present, controls the past. Those two quotes are about narrative and postmodernism, history is a narrative and it can be changed and it can be rewritten but the last quote, my favorite quote is from contemporary, a very pessimistic and a fortunate thing, he said those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it yet those who do study history like you Professor Fong are doomed to stand by helplessly while everyone else repeats it. So I eager to hear your comments on these general comments and the general generalizations of history. Well, that's what I think those comments are genius, genius comments and I think people who have not known too much about history will not make those comments, those people I can see. That's a, yeah, I like all the comments and I totally agree with them and I could take the question like those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it, that's true, you see. I think as early in the town dynasty and the town Taizong, the second emperor of the town dynasty, he just make a metaphor making a history as a mirror, right? Yeah, three mirrors and a history is one mirror because in studying history, we allow a person to understand and know better about the fall and the rise of a dynasty, former dynasty. But also, his talk is very, his metaphor is very popular in China but those dynasties still have not been changed, right? Exactly, exactly. The reason I think is they're seeing like a conscientious historians, probably maybe I'm one of them and I hope I'm one of them. You are. Chances, right? Historians, we understand the problem of history but we got no power. Those politicians were rulers. They have the power. Probably they don't have much interest in history or those politicians were rulers that they do have interest in history like the mother don't, for example, right? He's very good. He like reading history and like Suma Guang and Sizi Dongjian. He read many times but tend to forget history. Well, disregard those lessons that's in history. Well, when they are facing the real and practical and practical decisions or problems, that's why history will repeat itself. And that's right. We cannot repeat. History repeats itself and we learn from history that we do not learn from history. Well, we don't want to add our interview with a pessimistic note but I'd like to get to the lighter topics. And when was your last time in China? How long you have been away from it? Yeah, like many other Chinese, right? Last time I went back is 2019. And with my family, we visited the tomb of my late grandfather who died just in 2018. So we went to there. Yeah, that's his one. Yeah, since then, that's because of the pandemic. We have not been able to go back but once China is open to other countries again, I probably will go back and to see my mother at least. Oh, so you're having to see your mom? Yeah, yeah, three and almost four years. I'm so sorry. Just imagine where there are millions of Chinese living outside of the mainland and because of the pandemic policy in the past few years, you know, most of the people have never had a chance to see their loved ones, their family and their friends. And some of them even didn't have a chance to see them for the last time. And their family member pathway, it's just such a tragedy. And so we wanted to go to change it to a lighter topic but obviously we're getting even more heavy topic. Let's do have a lighter topic that we normally conclude our interview with two general questions. The question one is if you were giving some advice to a younger you in your early twenties, so what would you say? If you are able to meet a 21-year-old Qiang Fang, what would you say to yourself? Wow, that's a really nice and a question. Those are young people in India, 20s just like my students, right? My students. Exactly, generation Z, Z. Yeah, yeah, I think the best advice that I give to them is to study harder and stick to one discipline as much as they can. They don't need to like me, right? Because I have changed my major five times. Well, they might learn from you because you are interdisciplinary and probably the reason you have such accomplishment as a scholar, because you've changed your discipline a couple of times. I know, for some people, but those in a traumatic life see that as only myself and I can witness and also experience for myself. That's why when I was in graduate school in China, another fellow student, a graduate student, asked, told me that, wow, you have lots of rich, very rich experience. I would be like you. But I told him, if we just change, right? Change it to each other, then probably you will never live in my life. It's not a copy book. It's one person's career path. Life stories cannot be duplicated in any way. Everybody is unique. And final question, and any books, particularly history books and all history movies, you'll enjoy and you would recommend it to our audience. Yeah, for the history book, and I think that the best book I would like to read and again and again and also would like to recommend is Stephen Suma-Guansen's, because comprehensive and mirror in state and government governance. That's the book and I have read several times and I still love that when I have time. I want to read it. The biggest reason or the biggest merit or credit of that book is the pragmatism of that book. And that book is a tend to connect the past and to the present. So it's one to use the history as a mirror to tell or give the lesson to the present people. So I think that I'm still impressed and also I'm still influenced by that book even now in all my researches. I don't want to focus on writing a history book and a history project simply in the past. Somewhere in the past, but I want to look at, use a book to look into the future. Yeah, that's the kind of... Yeah, but definitely, definitely the most outstanding recommendation. It's a heavy lifting, though. It's very thick, very book and very heavy. It's funny audience, yeah. I would recommend, you know, Professor Jonathan Spence, Chinese history books, they are much more entertaining, but obviously they are not as serious as Sima Guang's Zidru Tongjian, but I appreciate your recommendation. Well, we're just about right out of time. I really appreciate your time, Professor Feng, to come to the show and learn a lot. And I would definitely go back to my bookshelf and just take one volume of Zidru Tongjian and to enjoy it. Again, Professor Feng, Professor Qiang Feng, Professor of History from the University of Minnesota, Duluth. Thank you so much for your time, and I really appreciate that you have come to our show. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, lawyer Wang and a missed one for your invitation. I really like this program. I think that I wish the program will become more popular and more famous in the future. Thank you, Professor Feng. Aloha, see you next time. Yeah, see you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.