 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-siler. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Good man. I'm excited for tonight. Absolutely tonight We're gonna be doing some big fun stuff and to join us first-time guest Thomas. How you doing sir? Good to have you on the show Awesome. Thanks for having me excited to be here Absolutely Thomas is from the week in the decadent. So you can check that out channels linked down below Good name. That is a name. Was there a particular meaning behind that name? From the yeah, absolutely PC. It's from the the classic 2003 underworlds a quote from Bill Nye Check it out. It's not gonna be good, but it's a great quote Okay, okay Everybody's favorite vampire fighting werewolf movie. Absolutely, of course a True landmark that they then decided to make something like 52,000 sequels to so I believe they're still making them right now as we speak So we're gonna be talking about all of the books every battle tone. They came out in 3.0 What can we learn from them? What was good? What was bad? What do we want to see going forward into the next edition of those battle tomes? This is very much a continuation of our talk last week, which is about the core rules Now we're gonna take a look back and travel through time on that, but of course first the news Tyler rumor engine rumor engine room your engine Yes, 40k probably maybe I saw some people saying maybe a croot thing. I guess that's related to tau I've gathered online. That is correct I don't know 40k lore, but I know that yes, that is a That is they're one of the like peoples that they integrated into the Some people were guessing maybe the new chaos dwarves don't know about that. It's definitely yeah Just 40k just 40k Next 40k thing. Yep. Check one or the Let me just we can go to the to the next news item. Oh, hold on. That's the wrong image. Okay. I'm sorry Let me go this other direction There we go. All right, you were saying Yeah, so we got underworlds they are releasing new starter sets And this is you were saying this is basically a relaunch. Yeah, it's a re-release of the original Like shade spire when it was called shade spire and that's what we all thought the game was called as as as Many acts out on top this week This is the original like far striders against the skeleton boys the like seven skeleton dudes or whatever And okay fine, those are some of the ugliest generation of stormcast, but I Mean if it means that some of these older unavailable war bands that are really good and a us become available like cool, I guess Mm-hmm. Exactly to me. I was just like these things should just be perma available the the war bands So like I'm glad to see them bring this out. I assume we'll just slowly re-roll all of the fast releases like so Okay That's cool. Now there is yes. Thank you Cinderfall. Yes There are new rival the one of that like this is a new the figures the same but the The everything else around them is the new starter So like the rivals deck for the new format is new all that kind of stuff. So Yeah, yeah So, okay, cool. Okay Rock on Yeah, I'll take our third news item third news item Hey everybody if you've been watching me on Twitter this week, which I hope you have at Warhammer weekly Look, it's right up there. It's like up in that corner up there. See You would know we've been uncle Adam and I have been teasing something all week and that's because on Friday two days from now our new game launches were very excited about it and You know, it's it's gonna be it's gonna be a lot of fun. It's gonna be very interesting They'll be all sorts of all sorts of supporting videos going up that day for it. Don't worry, but get excited get hyped You know We'll see what it is. We as always play the stuff close to the the chest But we'll see if anybody can figure out what's going on from from our little teasers. We're sharing every day So there you go okay That's that's that's all I had on the news Quick segments right? Let's talk about Indeed some pick of the week Thomas will start with you since you're the guest. What would you like to share with everybody? Yeah, if anyone hasn't seen it or seen him. Hey, whoa Kind of got me into a lot of the armies that I'm there are most my most favorite now Particularly skaven something that Vince might appreciate I love his videos his contents great like his takes I just if you haven't checked him out. I strongly recommend Checking him out on twitch and his YouTube videos Fantastic, I'll link it down below. I would recommend if you love a hey, whoa you may also want to check out hey, whoa, plus a An additional channel run by some of his his His his crew there that edits together some of his twitch stuff and puts it up so that you can watch his bad reports And other things like that. I am I am absolutely an avid hey, whoa plus subscriber So, you know check check out all those channels. I'll link them Tyler you want to share with everybody Yeah, TP grand is that an early dig at me We will speak of the most broken and meta breaking books I'd net deep can that sounds like an early dig that settled down there TP a little early So What did I pick a week in the decadence? Let's give another shout out to that show Big fan. I love the variety of armies Nice long battle reports settle in now that I'm doing some painting. You got me through some nergal miniatures I appreciate in that Thomas so everybody else on YouTube. They want short content like the average viewer, right? They want like 10 20 minute content miniature painters I'm look I want to put something on and not have to click a stupid button again or worry about anything for like an hour and a Half two hours. I'm like lock me in baby. Let's go. Let's do this Just arrested at the Waffle House, which I think is my favorite YouTube name He's the funniest person on our stream and it's like he's not even on it No, cheers to arrested at the Waffle House every time I see arrested at the Waffle House pop up in the chat I'm always happy Because that is maybe the greatest user handle of all time. Yeah, absolutely the rest of us are just just absolutely In awe of that. All right. Oh, yeah second one is You gotta have a strike Nagori Second one is Rob and company on a swore gamer t-sports network They've been doing tremendous work getting ready for worlds, which I believe just started today Though they're doing live coverage on Twitch every day Looks great checked in a little bit earlier. So yeah We'll have the link to their Twitch channel where you can find all the games that he'll be streaming Absolutely my pick speaking of longer content the top boys had Mr. 52 miniatures himself over On the visiting them in Minnesota and they have a most recent episode of trapped under plastic with Scott and John had him on Fantastic interview. I don't know they're like just general podcast. I guess they're really interviewing him But they talked to him some about like his life and hobby and stuff like that What's hilarious is I don't know if you could have someone be more sort of diametrically opposed To Scott and John who are both high-energy goofballs. I say that with all the love in the world But then he is so taciturn and Calm and and reserved and just like thoughtful about all his stuff And it was just it's so funny to watch them just bounce off of him And he's just so he has an island in the middle of this chair to see around him. So that's great Yeah, it's great At any rate check out the episode. It was a it was a really good one and 52 miniatures is a absolutely wonderful channel Who who's really making like movies about miniature painting not really about miniature painting. That's like movies about this thing Much higher level content that I could ever imagine creating. So very nice stuff Okay And then yes, oh that was a I just want to go back to a quick comment here From Loli who said shout out to the amazing John Blanch who just announced his retirement from GW. Yeah Yeah, I saw that I saw to moss shared that out. That was who's also an amazing individual someone We should get on this show sometime like I want to do a show with you moss sometime a really nice guy And maybe we just talk about more time for like two hours or something like that But you know John Blanche is obviously an incredible artist and I'm sure he will continue to make art and and I'm just hope that like he's he's worked a long time And I suspect that strongly because of how much he loves it and his passion for this like he's been around since basically the beginning Yeah, it's an indelibly determined the aesthetic for what we all think of as Warhammer. So Absolutely, I remember saying an amazing. Yeah There was a an incredible Warmer community article the year a couple years ago Some I don't know who did it but somebody had created some adeptus Mechanicus miniatures that were converted based on John Blanche a number of his paintings. That's just all that Yeah, just a phenomenal So yeah, it's good stuff. I mean he's a well-deserved retirement like the man's worked hard and done a lot and shaped the What we all view as Warhammer in our minds when we close our eyes So I mean I feel like you're good buddy. You're good. It's okay. Take take a break. Enjoy. Enjoy your years, you know This this this low beta Warhammer nerd fest that that we all enjoy that's a I don't know if you guys get that reference It's been going around on Twitter the last couple of days very very low beta activity that we're engaged in I see I'm not familiar with that, but I I'll have a link to send you it's it's good stuff. Yeah, I haven't heard of it either I can't wait And I agree with Eric who said I wish Blanche's concept art of this storm cast carried through a bit more to the final execution I agree we talked about that way back in the day his original concept art for storm cast was was absolutely incredible and so much more Brutal as the word I would use then then how the ministers actually came out so I just loved it I remember in high school seeing the Adeptus or soreata sort of her with her put up on the skull that yeah That's like it's a core memory for me playing magic the gathering underneath that poster So it's sad to hear him head now, but yeah, like you said earned it. Yeah, absolutely We should all we should all hope for you know a tenth of the success in our chosen career. So Okay Let's let's talk about some hobby time shall we gentlemen? All right, Thomas will start with you You're the guest. What's been on your table man? What do you've been working on? I've been I should have picked this for my like myself serving pick of the week But I've been getting ready for the mile high open and I'm going to be running here in a month and so I'm doing terrain and At the same time I'm getting ready for a stream in a week And I'm going to be trying to run he'd nights of slush Which will be the first time I get to play that on stream, which I'm excited about Not a single shooter. I bet right Same place I was how many shooters that's the question. I'm gonna have 30 bliss barb and five See bliss barb seekers I'm having to paint the 20 because the army that we picked up only had one ten-man unit of bliss barb archers and You know the army just is apparently a shooting army. We'll talk about that. I'm sure You're only halfway there. So that's that's that's reasonable I'll say that putting together bliss barb seekers was the worst kid. I've ever put together and I own 19 armies It was absolutely awful. Thank you I tell people this as a fellow's in the same boat as you with the the number of armies I put together those those bliss barbs. I was like, this is the worst kid I've ever put together and I tell people that and they're like, oh Can't be the bad you know so many bad kids. I'm like look man. I put together a lot of Warhammer models, okay? Yeah, trust me when I say I thought that I thought that help it was gonna be like unassailable But absolutely not like my I just gave up. I was like, well, you know people aren't gonna look that close, you know Sure, it's a stream. It's only 4k. Yeah spirit hosts not you'd like you'd surpassed. I you know all these. Yeah, exactly. Okay very good Tyler what about you buddy working on yeah getting ready for bug eater GT this weekend off the Nurgle My yeah, it's gonna do it so back on stormcast. We'll see how that goes and Just get some games and haven't been I think I've got an idea though from my next list I'm gonna get some I get some all together bankers sure as vigilors been dictors band is hammerhand under All the V's arguably the under costed that dude is incredible They like 190 right now because nobody played him and he was amazing Last season but nobody played him plus one attack on Redeemer unit get up You know like 31 attacks on on a unit of 10 vindictors. They can actually do some work But anyway, yeah, so we'll we'll see if I can improve upon the call that that fantastic record I had from Colorado clan carnage Thomas Nowhere to go but down that blades of corn list, you know, yeah, did people dirty? Would you end up like 4-1 5-0 5-0 visit for anyone. It was a team tournament. We're not we're not ripping it too hard here but Blades of corn real good Real good. Yeah, it's this this we all know But and and hey look, that's that's fine They've been they've been stealth pretty good for a long time now. They're real good in the Sun So at least now everybody knows it Yeah, so so that's fine My hobby time has been largely focused on finishing up this girl here, which is Morgana Le Fay from From mine works and so yeah, that's this is where she's at right now. She's she's largely in a good place I actually got a small amount of time today to just sit down and work on stuff and and I'm pretty happy overall with where she's where She's sitting. I got obviously do her base and everything like that She's gonna be stepping into a big pool of water in case it's not obvious from this very obvious blue glow That's kind of hitting the lower part of her there But yeah overall a lot of fun very very very fun miniature and Yeah, so good times Really really enjoying just Experimenting and playing with things and having a good time and in my my miniature painting here So yeah, you've been painting all kinds of different things that are non-GW. It's been cool to see just just getting into it My dog just just painting whatever whatever catches the fancy, you know And then not putting myself under any timetable with them just letting the figure take me wherever it wants to take me You know just messing around with stuff blended and trying things out playing with different different Concepts and lighting and things like that. She's been really fun. So yeah, absolutely Very nice cool. All right. Don't worry. I'm sure we'll get back to to army painting at some point in time I think it's it's inevitable, but now cities of Sigmar. Yeah, exactly. There's always gonna be something Exactly. All right, but hey with that Let's get into the main topic get there quick, which is good because this will probably be a healthy topic All right So battle tomes review and look forward the past in the future by the way Why don't you hit like if you're watching at this point, huh? You go ahead hit those buttons click them subscribe do those fun things it really helps other people find the show Especially right now the more of you that hit like the more YouTube promotes the stream and the more people come join and learn about AOS and wouldn't that be great to grow our community all for the cost of just clicking a button. All right Let's talk about overview So we're gonna look back at each battle tone released over 3.0 And talk about what we think was good. What we think was bad, right? Where were the areas where we thought that there was things that were successful? Where were the areas where we think there's a challenge? There's room for improvement. There's ways that we can Maybe learn a lesson for future battle tones and and obviously that's part of what we want to do here is think when we get To these things being re-released in 4.0 because that's gonna happen We all we all know that this is the the world we live in, right? Yeah What lessons do we want them to learn from the past home? right Okay Manny no problem Croyger. I gotcha. Okay, so The the the question becomes Where should they pivot? Where should they stay the same? Especially when it comes to things like flavor the feel of the army the rules Things that the army is doing all that sort of stuff Sound good Okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. All right, so that's gonna be That's gonna be our our plan here Sean Sayers says battle tomes throw them all out time for free constantly updated rules I I wouldn't mind a digital sort of living rule set. I think that's fine It is harder often for people to find and get into the game if they can't just like buy a book and be like This is my book But you know if you if you make it easy enough to go find those rules to go get at them That's that's also okay The real problem is I would love to like you're gonna have to make a heck of a business case to whosoever in GW leadership that like Oh by doing this and cutting off X millions of dollars of revenue that we get in battle tomes I'm gonna grow you more money and new and new customers or returning customers or some other kind of sales or whatever The subscription service is that you're paying for for your digital living rules or you know, whatever I'm not saying that business case couldn't be made. I'm just saying that's that's the major who right somebody's got to Make a real whiz bang case to the moneymen. That's always who it's always who stops every good idea at a large company I don't I don't ever see it happening at least in the near term as much as I want it Like I desperately want as a as an IT person like just just give me digital copies of everything that'd be ideal but Like like they're just saying it's just such a huge revenue for them that sad And and you know could be that there's a better way to do it that would actually make them more successful But somebody's got to put together that case can't just feel it nobody nobody on a senior executive level is going to be like Oh, you feel like we make more money go for it That's not how it works anywhere outside of netflix. Okay, so uh, let's let's talk about the tomes Okay, let us begin with the launch tomes Stormcast Eternals We begin of course the ultimate launch tome of of this in every edition se This book came out. Let's talk about sort of the basics. So we all remember this book launching, you know at the launch And uh, yeah, it's so long ago Ages ago before the dawn of man. Okay, so Uh I would like to let's play a fun game Tyler I'd like you to name me two things that you remember From the storm cast launch that you remember like thinking at the time or that you remember is being stand out from the release of this Tome from its launch long strikes long strikes long strikes uh long strikes and thunder bovali that that stood out just a wee bit and Fulminators like long strikes and fulminators. Yeah Okay, thomas obviously there's a certain d word in there, but yeah busted dragons There we go coordinating my life just completely to cinders Yeah, I also remember on a on a less negative side. I remember thinking that heroes were better I was wrong, but I remember thinking that. Oh man, like some of these foot heroes might be able to compete Uh, we were so young and simple when we looked at those heroes and said, oh, they're damaged too. We finally got it. Yes Yeah, I was like, oh man, these guys are really good. I'm gonna. I'm gonna win some games by taking some storm cast heroes I also thought annihilators look great Uh, which I think still is the case Uh, oh annihilators with annihilators with shields. Yeah, I thought they looked amazing The okay visually. Yes, and stats they didn't pay enough for me And I let my leaders of shields are interesting. I think they're a little underrated right now. Anyway They're just a very different unit. They're they're harder to use in the current meta, but I do think they have quality Uh Yeah, so I'll I'll I'll I'll remember my two thoughts. So first of all, yes, of course dragons burn in any of the countryside Yeah, that's that's that's I'm glad you you caught that one. That's not one of my two. I just I am agreeing It was the topic Do sure of the of the time, right? Because this was we like there was a point adjustment on these guys before they launched Do we all remember that? Yeah, didn't they didn't they also uh nerf the command trait before it got to uh to the tabletop? Yeah, they were they were so much worse than what you played friends and so This is what leads me to actually my two memories. Okay My two core memories of the storm cast launch were one being really excited that Some of the units Felt really really good that I was like genuinely excited to put some of these units on the table that I hadn't been for a while Okay um I mean this book made me do the rat cast army yeah uh and and Looking at things like the paladins and you know all the drakoth writers and stuff like that Uh, just got me really excited like just for for classic Storm cast you know everybody's like dragons dragons dragons, but I was like man But I really like just the the meat and potatoes classic figs of this army. I'm so excited for them I I really liked, um, you know, even vindictors who were who were new, but I just thought they were like a really nice solid Uh quality sort of attrition battle line absolutely and then Simultaneously, I remember thinking wow all of these command traits and artifacts And those things really suck Uh The only one that was any good was the one that they changed because it was just like too good at that time By the way, I have a running theory That if we just restored dragons right now to their original points and did nothing else Like just put them back at their original points Like we're not restoring the other ability that they lost or the command trait. I don't think it would change a thing I don't think a thing would batter Today or back then no right now right now this minute. Yes. If like this minute Dragons, we just knocked them to their their what they were on their original points cost And I'll go y'all do one better We're gonna make them all 10 points cheaper than they were in their original print. I can't even remember what they were What were they? Yeah, I have I'm thinking they were under 300 They were under 300. Yes. I can't remember. I have 280 in my mind, but that sounds too low No, but yeah, you're correct. It's 280. Okay Interesting. I could I could I guess I get behind that thinking of them at 280 like It's not that scary anymore with the The lack of the alpha strike the ability to just zip across the board on one turn That was perhaps the most awful part about them. Yeah, and Uh, yes, Murgonki, you're correct. They're 285, but I was going to give it to him at 280 Okay, so like it's fine like the five points would have been rounded off Anyways, no matter what because we wouldn't restore something to 285. We'd restore it to 280 Oh, because we're getting rid of the five points or whatever. So uh like Honestly, it wouldn't matter for crap for this army Like you you'd take your dragons. You'd burn some zombies and then they'd murder you Oh, sure You're you like what what but what can we do against such enemies like Fighting zombies with storm cast is one of the most horrible experiences You will ever have in your life as you will go like smashing the zombies kill a ton of them They will mortal wound you off the table and then half that unit comes back Great Fantastic experience Like in your turn and takes your objective What a positive experience I mentioned this to to tyler, but we played a game this last weekend And there's a multiplayer game and at one point like so I had multiple opponents And one of them was playing soul light and one of them was playing gets I'm like what a great showdown of the two worst armies in the meta And at one point the big giant squiggard hit the big giant zombie pack And I was just like this is a predator versus alien situation. No matter who wins I lose Like there's just terrible like what a what a horrible horrible fight Uh anyways So the the mirror units of those two units the mirrors of those two units was just shocking but anyways I that's the thing that I remember like over time this storm cast book took some very specific nerfs and You know, we mentioned the original command tree thing, but then there's others obviously we mentioned the Bali change, which I think is probably still a good thing in the end. Like I'm not I'm not sad that went away I I really think that the problem with this book is that it just didn't have equitable choices like What what I mean by that is just like you look at the command trees you look at the holy commands You look at the artifacts most of them are crap most of them aren't worthwhile like a couple things that are of any value And it's just underwhelming for the for the banner army to launch with such poor enhancement support It was like this was written when they had no clue what they wanted the enhancements to look like for the edition It feels like it was written by Someone almost completely different that then that took over maybe with nercle or after nercle like the the design feels I would say kind of Kind of 2.0 with a 3.0 face mask on top of it, you know, they scooby do it It's really just a 2.0 But you know, you've got a ton of bad artifacts. You've only got like a few truly good options and you know, it's It's kind of unfortunate that they weren't brave enough to collapse things Like they did with seraphon. It took them all the way till like right now to start just saying, okay Either sunset this unit or you know, make the model equivalent with you know, another one and all of a sudden you have just have two scopes but I get the the book suffers from Like 10,000 war scrolls, which is a complaint. I remember even back then. Yep And 39 39 hero war scrolls. Yeah, it's ridiculous Quite a few of them you can just skip. Yeah a lot and one of them is an auto take it feels like I I haven't played against Stormcast in a while, but the lord relic still feels like you just put them in You start your you start your list by putting a lord relic during your list sometimes Yeah, I don't know if he's an auto take, but yeah, you seem a lot. You do still seem a lot I mean, he's probably as close as you can get right like yeah I mean with that much variety the fact that he's in almost every list Maybe that's something that like offends me in my heart the most sure I just I won't I love variety like you mentioned it And my battle reports I run a bunch of weird stuff because like anybody can can run croak bombs But not everyone runs 20 raptodons. Sure. So Anyway, like there's so much variety in here You never get to see and what I really want them to do is either make everything playable or Cut down on the number of war scrolls so that like what is playable is Unique enough so that you don't have just like dead weight like oh well, I guess my sequiturs are useless this season this condition Yep, it feels like the kind of thing where they could take you know liberators Sequiturs and vindictors and make them one unit and say just use whatever figs right like this is this is your Your battle line foot troop right they could take a bunch of the priests and make them one unit They won't and they won't cut figs like we're gonna be deep. We're gonna be sounded with this in 4.0 I think we'd all like I think the I don't know how the community would feel about this if they collapsed What do you in the comments think people watching? Tell me what you think if they collapsed units down and said like and just had like three photos there Right and it was like any of these three dudes They're all this Okay, like nobody's losing figures. Nothing's being retired Okay You got first gen liberators. You're just as good as somebody who only bought the dominion box It does not matter use those any of these three figs. They all represent like You know Thunderators, I don't know. That's the new name. We're giving all of them Okay um You know, would that be confusing to new people? I uh, maybe maybe I I'm not sure but I think I think it'd be worth it Because I just don't know how you get a balanced book out of 75 worse roles when almost 40 of them are heroes Can I can I perhaps paint a desolate picture of a forlorn feature? Sure that they in the fourth edition tome Uh, they split these different chambers out like the oracle war clan's book. Ha ha segway Nice I read Yeah, I'm doing what they did in in a os what they did in war cry or now. It's just like you build Uh war bands based on their their chamber and With that many war scrolls I could see somebody in the office being like, hey You know, what's better than selling one book selling, you know, three books I think it's a good. I think it's a good probably another five years six years before we get our our blood angels dark angels, you know type of of split Uh black Templars gray knights and so on and so forth whatever like the space marine analogy I don't I don't think there's honestly enough there to do that kind of thing because the units don't divide neatly Like they do and there's not enough like specific support outside of, you know, hammers Right. Like what are you gonna what's your? You know, it's like gardis and Right. Oh, I'm thinking like a warrior chamber sacrosanct chamber and guard chamber. You can sure you go You can slice on the other direction. Yeah, and that's sorry. That's that's kind of what was in my head There's certainly not enough to split based on the 10 000 chambers or you know factions or whatever the factions. Yeah, whatever Yes, um, yeah, I mean honestly, I I I don't think we'll go there in 4.0 But I do think it'll happen eventually but my hope would be to to to avoid that yet Just just collapse these down. Just let them people use anything for the one scroll I don't it'd be unprecedented. They've never done anything like that where they say use You know any of these things Um, I think they would hate it. I don't think they'd they'd go for it. Um But I love the idea it'd make a better book. I can say that with 100% sure it would make a better book Look at seraphon Um, some of the other options by the way is they could make like you could go a really interesting direction I mean, let me let me haul at you. Let me pitch another idea. You ready? I'm ready Okay, we're gonna take a bunch of the crap heroes a bunch of the crap foot storm cast heroes Like there's a there's I don't know pick 20 of these guys. Okay. There's plenty of them Night this and night that and so on and so forth. Okay We're gonna we're gonna move those guys down to like They're gonna have four wounds Okay, but they're not gonna be Uh leaders anymore Okay, instead You're just gonna get them and they're gonna you're gonna they're gonna just attach to a unit And they're gonna give that unit some little passive ability. They have they're a simple war scroll That just attaches like plugs into a unit. They don't can't wander around. They don't wander on their own They they're like they're like super unit champions. They join up Into a unit and they act as like the You know the special guy in that unit, right? They're just like a four wound thing They don't you know, it's the four wounds. They're not capturing us anymore So there's still just a one model in a unit for capture and all that, right? But they just give the unit a sort of passive ability based on whatever they are the night relic or the night relic doors like some kind of preasty thing the Uh, you know, I don't know the night Uh, you get it. Yeah. Yeah specific units. They can go to they don't click into anything They click into specific units, right? I mean, it sounds fun And it's certainly a design space that they can then put in every other army and then storm cask Can get ogre treatment But uh, I think it it would certainly help with that problem And then they can still sell the models individually, which is you know for I don't want to pay that much for a little like a buff But uh, gw wants to be due probably, um, because it's it's a business, you know Uh, I would love to see something like that. Um I'm not sure if it for as far as verisimilitude goes like making those like mega ultra heavy metal dudes Four winds feels a little bit light Um, maybe if they if you could put them together in their own special like hero unit Uh, like rather than like build your own unit. I don't know. Sure. I mean four is still pretty decent for a non hero Because that's the key. They're all losing the hero keyword here. Oh, yeah, but that's fair. That makes sense You're right, right because then just I mean like if an annihilator is three wounds, you're bigger than an annihilator We have not quite a like lord celestine or something. Yeah, right? It's the step in between And warpstone and joyer. No, not literally 40k 10th edition character rules because 40k 10th edition is you can take these characters And they marry to specific units that they're meant to go with but that's all the characters I'm still saying like we keep I'm not I'm not recommending a game wide change I'm recommending a specific Thing for storm cast where there's this sub heroes effectively these little guys that aren't actually heroes They're just like the the arcane support for a unit the religious support for a unit That's something like that, right? Like they're their unit backup So I'm not like we're not taking a lord celestine and he's not joining a unit, which is wow 40k You know works, right? Like you've got your your orc war boss and he can get in the knobs or whatever I don't know. I don't know 40k or names, but something like that. I assume is the case, right? He has like some specific orc boys or or something. He wants to join, right? Like not that that's the dude. That's the guy in charge of your army I'm not saying that like the generals in aos is still the general you get some dude who wanders around, right? I'm say I'm I'm effectively almost making them a unit upgrade of sorts But like make them plug into not just one unit make them plug into a selection of units based on chamber Or just all the knights they're not lords yet They're just yeah, there's I'm saying like all the night dudes the little ones Yeah, right the ones who are already the weaker versions quote unquote in the story, right? Yes, this would be like your night to this your night that they become that kind of support, right? Yeah One thing that stood out with the battle tome is the sacrosanct chamber in particular I thought was the leading example of an issue with that book where There was really I mean number one They did a poor job with those war scrolls almost across the boards the castigators the evocators Evocators on dracolines the various versions of the heroes in the sacrosanct chamber You didn't have a reason from that battle tome to run a theme sacrosanct army In terms of how they designed that book sure and that and you you can do you could design a number of ways to give you incentives Right to run a themed army for that. So that I thought that was a real miss with that battle tome I mean I we're pointing out a lot of flaws with it. I personally enjoy the hell out of this book Had a great time playing this for a full year. Yeah. Yeah, man. I know you played a lot too Yeah, and so like there I thought there were a lot of positives despite these various these various issues with the book I think it holds up reasonably well Like you there's still because there's so many war scrolls They're they're still pretty good variety. I mean particularly if you're not just trying to go like Full-on curb stomping and you know, you can you can find compelling list That kind of fit in that slightly toned down space But anyhow, yeah, definitely definitely some issues with it. Yeah Yeah, and and uh talon's onset, uh, like like adding special dudes to your unit like in conquest I haven't played conquest, but I assume that's correct. But yes Like it the what was more in my mind is exactly what robert curt has said kind of like adding warlocks to eldad units and Eldar units in Yes, exactly Uh, I like The warlocks were like not heroes but not dudes I mean, they were like they were some middle step, right? Like Yeah The none of they're like you're promoted above a unit champion. You're like a major You're not like you don't get to go all the way yet or something, right? I don't know Okay Yeah, so so what's our lessons we want them to take for fourth edition like we we get the fourth edition version of this Tome, what do we want to see? I'll I'll start with just a quick easy one Uh Can we please understand how valuable armor saves are going to be over the course of the addition? And then set their defenses accordingly, right and or and or design with them in mind Because they are the elite army who relies on the fact that it's a three up save army, right? That's basically the army. It's it's three up save. No, no, they're not the only one Obviously plenty, you know plenty of s2d armies can also do that corn can also do that even better to some degree Like there are other armies. They're playing in the space But like this is a pretty pretty critical thing for this army. They are elite. They hit hard So please define what hitting hard means Right, like everybody blah blah blah about fulminators for so long and now it's like oh you wish you were just fighting fulminators Exactly, yeah I would say um, you know, they've got the uh What's the there's the two sub factions, uh the the guys in the sky and what's the what's the ones where they're Stormkeep and and Yeah, so the the the storm keep I would like to see that actually see play Uh, because any any any of the armies I've seen everyone just plays, um Skyons, uh rather than stormkeep. Yeah Like it would be cool to see some variety like some actual list differentiation like That's tough to ask for when you're looking at 70 plus war scrolls and like eight sub factions and yada yada yada But uh, I feel like when there's only two different options and you'd never see one Maybe that like warrants a little bit of design effort. You know what I mean? I 100% agree with you and I want to build on it real quick. Tyler. I'm Yeah, certainly go in a second, but like maybe give them real allegiance abilities Uh For for the first time ever because I don't like I don't know how we've gotten so many editions where every time stormcast are like No, but you can ambush you can drop from the heavens I'm like most other people have that as a byline in a list of all these disabilities And don't try to tell me that they like I do some occasional mortal wounds on my Thunderstrike out is anything that's nothing you've given me That's that meme where he looks at the piece of paper the little kid looks piece of paper He's like this is worthless Right. I don't know what show that is because I'm an old man, but that but I but I that's the meme Gravity falls. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Uh, I'm sure for the millennial crowd that was a influential show I was already far beyond the age where I would be watching that now if you want to talk about some winks club or something I'm here now If it wasn't on saturday morning in the 2000s 90s or 1980s, I didn't watch it. So um at any rate the Yeah, I mean, I just want to see him have actual allegiance abilities where it's like And that goes right to what you're saying make storm keep do a thing feel like a thing Right where it's like these guys are here. They're established. They're they're they're built in They're the bulwark against all comers who seek to destroy civilization And then you've got the scions who are meant to be your Thunderstrike rapid response team You know beach head shows up to just kill everybody and then leave force So like Do that at a very at a very minimum make coalition stuck just to The the people playing at home and not the people coming in from space Yeah, yeah, absolutely Tyler what about you? What's the lesson you want to see before point out? Oh building on your point about saves I mean one issue that we've seen increase in the game in the meta is the proliferation of AoE mortal wounds area of effect mortal wound, you know splash damage, right? I mean that to me feels like it's all over the place And we've had that at various times this army suffers heavily of course from that because it's mostly an army that's relying on its save So it it can do that very well as well Funnily enough like it can be a culprit of of that in the game, but yeah, it doesn't feel like They I don't know. They're just not I wish we didn't have That level of mortal wind splash damage in the game just period Like It feels like it's a little out of control to me right now in the in the environment So that's just one thought that came to mind based on what you said Vence Yeah, I'll let's stick with that point like I really feel If you're going to have a sacrosanct chamber a vanguard chamber Thunder strike whatever we're calling that like I guess it's just the thunder, right? Let's have some incentive and design that that makes me want to like that allows me to go linear and play Yeah, apparently is that force here's your here's your thunder strike, right? Because I'm like this my friend damp hit he was running at this very cool thunder strike list And it's like I made a couple mainly I put prime in it and I took a couple things out But it's like nitjudicator vindictors vanquishers, right? It's but it's mostly all vanquish It's mostly all a thunder strike But there's no real incentives to do that in the design. So I would like to see a little bit of that I think that would add more variety Etc to the to the army Yeah, I mean, I'd love it if these guys never had word saves. Okay That's one of the things like the stormcast class. They doesn't really have words I mean, obviously there's goddess There's six up in hammers if you're an objective stuff like that I don't mind a little six up here there for like some special circumstances. I'm okay with that Um, but I would love to see this army have something like make the actual fact that their armor is the best armor in the mortal realms mean something Make it so like it can't they can't ever get worse than some particular save in some way or you know something like that, right? Like they Uh, so this really is this really is a 40k idea. But you know, you have that the way that they 40k treats invulnerable saves It's not a word save. It's just your save can't get worse than this number Right, right, you know more than I'm still plow through that But which is fine, but like your save can never get worse than some number So they like to represent the fact that their armor is Supposedly the best literal best thing in the in the mortal realms, right? It's it's made of the sigmaron or whatever It's carved from the The the heart of the dead old world floating at the center of space station sigmar like let's feel that Space station sigmar That's where he lives. Tell me that's not where he lives He lives on space station sigmar. Look at that picture. That is where he lives This is a 100 accurate retelling of the lore get get two plus on the phone. He'll agree So at any rate, yeah, that's that's something like that's prom living so Okay, cool. Anything else you want to say on storm cast? Yes, I mean, that's Whatever man, like it's not meant to be about storm cast It was more of an observation on the state of the game that yeah storm cast gets wrapped up and being impacted by Like a plate against seraphon starborn Last week, right and they did 60 mortal wounds over two battle rounds Yeah, it was against a storm cast list, but that could be true against a lot of lists Is that there are some counters against it some armies have more ability to counter But is that from like a first principle standpoint a good idea to have that capacity in the game Seems like a bit of a stretch to me that so i'm not necessarily commenting on storm cast more more just in general Oh, sure. And also, uh Final point. I'll leave here as we leave storm cast behind in 4.0 We'll get some new figs, of course because we always do Uh, so lightning tanks you cowards Okay, I want my storm cast tanks Uh, let's just let's do this. Okay more of those light wings. I love those light wings I I will also accept fliers. Let's go. Let's start that whole mess. Uh, all right Well, we spent way too long on that But that's okay Like my god, did we talk about storm cast for a while? All right. I did not even realize I was like, we're being pretty responsible and I looked at the time to time stamp and I was like, oh god We need to move faster Okay Uh Orac war clans, we're gonna do the same thing two things you remember from this book coming I think this is a good structure. Tyler go. What are the two things you remember from oryx when they came out? Uh Mashin and bashin incredible and and gosh, uh the the I I actually I I love the design of the cool boy. I like the look of the cool boys Roles were a little rough, but I really love the look of the cool boys personally. Okay I'm gonna I'm gonna open up with uh, like a diametric opposite opinion. I thought crew boys looked um Uh, I did not did not care for the little stubby legs big very marmite Yeah, I mean, it's fair like that's just a personal opinion. Uh, the other thing was Why why one book that was something that I I was like, why are these all kind of munched together? um And it like none of the rule stuff jumps out to me like what I think back to my first impressions. It was crew boys and And one book why? Okay, cool. Um, I remember the things that jumped out to me are one Everyone feeling like bone splitters was put in there by obligation Not by and and given absolutely no Love or attention whatsoever and then pretty soon people realized that because of like Their points went down like one time and they immediately hit that point We could just flood the board and they were actually uh A terrifying thing because you just have yeah exactly like just swarms of bodies the pigs and then captain Omega beams Right. Yeah, uh, like every every bone split is army being led by dark side, apparently Uh, at least one. Yeah, exactly. And so Uh, I remember that very clearly and then the second thing That I will mention is in that initial show when we when we read it. I was like pigs Incredible so good Uh, and blood toofs is incredible. We're all blood toofs play blood toofs. It's the way to go Then they went and f a q'd pigs to be better because they got this the neg two rend and brutes just But they were like well, sorry brutes. You almost had a shot at being worth something in an addition and then just kicked that right to the curb and uh And and I was very very right because then blood toofs just dominant dominant choices. Yeah Pigs are so incredible All right, and guess what we're about to get More mega pigs the mega pig absolutely. Oh when when does when does mega pig come out? That's that's a I'm can't can't get that in my hands fast enough. Let me tell you. I'm excited for mega pig um He's a big pig you can be a big pig too so the uh I want to talk about just kind of where we we now saw the journey and trajectory of these things go all over time None of these armies are good right now Right. Yeah. Yeah, these are all like the low end of the spectrum by the stats Right big one may be an exception, but they probably don't have a lot of results. Not a lot of people are playing big Wa I know big was better data. Sure. I mean the problem is I never trust the big Wa stats because it's like three people Yeah, so it's just we there's no way we're crossing statistical significance there, right? Like but iron jaws cruel boys and bone splitters are all pretty much in the tank as far as stats Like they're all toward the lower end with some of them falling well outside the the fat middle, right? Yeah, yeah, I have to wonder if people just got bored with the pig lists that we're doing so well because it is so single note And every yeah, I don't think I did it doesn't really have the responsiveness to the meta as it's evolved, right? Right and like now rather than doing d3 mortal wounds like each pig has to get in and deals one on each one You roll it just definitely feels like a an older design Agreed I'm trying to think what else I know that iron jaws is a personal kryptonite Smashing and bashing smashes and bashes my world of smithereens because I like to build garbage lists and they love garbage They are the trash compactors the The the maw crusher I think is the prime example for me Of something that is suffering the most from the escalating rendered damage Right before I struggled to get it up soon like get that thing off the table fast enough Now it's just it it runs in it does a little bit of you know yelling You know looks mean and then goes away and then you know goodbye 500 points at your army Uh Yeah Yeah, I think that's absolutely right the cruel boys never talk about a failure launch Right. Oh, yeah, like they've suffered mainly because their core allegiance abilities were bad I think that's it. It's that that's random. It's just yeah You can easily roll to have basically very limited to no allegiance abilities And we only got the fix for them to actually make it so their poison didn't cost a spell cast You know pretty pretty recently all things considered And and you've seen them all over the boards, right top of the charts made a huge difference Uh, like how how many points have they dropped, uh, the the battle line guys the gut rippas I I just didn't tell you a lot. They were around 200 right? Yeah, they were so much and they've dropped down to the point where they're I feel like they're too afraid to drop them anymore without it just becoming, you know gut rippa floods Like zombie style And they're still just so Inadequate runes as a single like defense. It just doesn't work like look at planarads Like you could you can flood the board with planarad runes that are five up saves Just like gut rippas and it just goes away You just you have to be killing stuff and they're not good enough or fast enough in my opinion to kill stuff right Yeah, I find that army intriguing I wish I would have played it to have a better feel for it But yeah, uh, just definitely agree on the randomness of the allegiance abilities But as a number of people are pointing out like l l with adding of the interesting control debuff elements Uh, I know they've struggled to cast spells with that army like it's hard to get spells off And there's where you can find some of your your control elements, but it's not consistent Uh, but yeah dirty tricks Yeah, that's that's I would start with that like that has to get the allegiance abilities have to get improved dramatically Like I think that one of the reasons you see big wall doing well is because it lets you pick Like cherry pick the best parts of cruel boys and put it into like an iron jaws army Right and the best like and then dark side dark side leads iron jaws with guys shooting in the back and like that ends up being Uh a good combo because it covers for some of the weaknesses and I think that's why you see Uh big wall in the right hands doing well because it It lets you it lets you mitigate some of the bad allegiance abilities right So Let's talk about what we want to see for 4.0 here because I think there's a lot of room to grow here So here's here's the first question Should this be three books or should this remain one book? Like should this be split up? What's your personally I personally want to see them now. This is going to be controversial I want to see them get a little bit of the scaven treatment where you just take enough of a certain type of work and you start getting You know more bonuses for like based on that orc thing I think that's one of the things that scaven did right and I'd like to see them keep it as one book But you know remove some of that old The hard lines between the hard lines the keyword bingo that we were so Glad to see gone and the the gitz book like it's still here in a maybe a different way But you know, I'd love to see one book you know one army you know a more Easy to build You know people can just get the orcs that they think look cool and put them in an orc book And then you know go be orky big wall style, but I know a little bit different. Yeah Tyler Okay, uh Yeah, they don't I that's interesting as far as splitting I like to say split them into three books and flesh them out make them feel I mean, I do still like the concept of being able to combine them, but It push come to shove. Yeah, I would go for three distinct factions that can stand on their own And maybe iron jaws has to expand slightly. Maybe it doesn't. I mean, it's it's been pretty great With a small force. Obviously, we know we're getting one model, but with curl boys specifically They just they don't that it doesn't feel like they play well enough according to the theme the narrative of that army So, I mean overall it just seemed like the design missed on that front And I'm not sure what all that will look like right, but it seems like they do need some more consistent elements To play in a tricksy, you know fashion than they do right now All right, so I'm going to I think have the most controversial take of all then But let's get into it Let's let's rip off this band-aid and bone split as you've you've served long you've served well It is time to ride into the sunset like I've been sweet prince like I I know We've we've gone this a long time with them being not really an army Uh, the rogue idols been retired I know there's people who still love them. I get that They're gone like like just let them go Let it let it go eventually some things must give way And They can come back they can ride again Some future day or they can live in the old world where they belong or something like that Um, and then you make one combined book And I agree with you that like yeah based on what you're who the general you take is or How many of particular heroes you have certain allegiance abilities unlock? Right like you could imagine it being a stacking thing if you have like one iron jaws hero like how How do you build your wall right the more heroes of that type the more they build a particular type of wall? And that's unlocking particular Allegiance abilities right and you're they're on the sort of balance spectrum between the cruel boy side Are you more because by the way once you have two forces? Then you can be are you more more come or gork? Are you more brutal but or cunning but brutal and so that could be a table that it like You know it it sort of tilts on I get it. I get it people who are out there. You all you all love your your your thing, but look Sometimes You got to let an army go and like the naked orcs that are just such a clear appendix on this thing like That are that are Very old models at this point. I'm sorry folks I know I know Vince is smashing and bashing my dreams Vince is being a heart slitter right now. Yeah, I like right Sometimes we got it. We got a the the cruelest truths, right, but I do think that would be a fun design for the book Yeah, I like the Big angry your shout out cruel boys need movement shenanigans like Sylvanath Yeah, when I played against them they have felt pretty static I mean there's at least one or two things you can do with the army But in general it yeah, I just felt way too static for what I would expect with that army Just feel like it needs a full redesign like nothing seems to have worked Just pull it all out make something better because they've They've like the most recent books. I've been impressed by all of it. You know just try again Yeah Yeah, all right. Good stuff. Let's keep moving All right, next up Tyler. I think you're gonna have some opinions about this one. Okay, uh Magikin of nercle So we're gonna once again the two things where we're gonna go around so Tyler I'm not starting with you you're gonna go last this time because you're gonna then transition right into talking about this book Okay, so Thomas. I'm starting with you. What's your what's your two things? You remember from this beast of nergal spam was the first list I ever uh wrote in the first list I ever ran and um I remember being with everyone thinking that the uh the damage out of The disease points we call it like the fart points is what I play when I'm playing them Uh, what the fart points are just like are nothing damage and they're not going to make a difference in the game And spoiler that I was super wrong But the piece of nergal stuff I you know, I like a weird list with lots of movement And I still think that it's a fun list to play. So, yeah Uh, so me I remember thinking uh, and you know things we talked about on the show We had said, oh, hey blightlords are pretty good, right? Yeah, it turns out. Yeah, uh, real good Uh, real real super good I also remember being down on beasts of nergal and feeling still pretty okay with that that belief to this day They've had some moments. They had some lists where they did okay, but but I was okay I think I'm looking back on it now two two years later. Whatever two plus years later I I stand behind my my original assumption. They're fine It's fine to to bad Uh, I think you're really generous to yourself, but that's okay. You weren't exactly saying they were fine But that's all right. I'll I'll amend my opinion to say I originally thought they're bad and at best They've shown to be fine. How about that fair enough? Yeah, okay. It's not a zombie's call. So yeah, I wasn't that far off the mark And uh, no andrew it is most definitely not but just this is we basically have all of the 3.0 battle tomes really missing Two at this point. So uh, we thought this would be a fun show to do because there's the only two were cities Which is coming out Legitally pretty soon and then fec, which is forever in the future might as well be so There's gonna be the the the dangler of this entire edition um and uh The other thing I'll I'll say is that the the other thought that was in my head right at the launch of this was Boy, oh boy. Did they get the flavor? Perfect on this one. I remember being so thrilled by the versimilitude the flavor the feel of playing this army It got slowed way down I mean, you know, yes the flies were still like too egregiously fast because they're stupid Subfaction and they're they're drowning me moving all that but That that and I remember yelling about that then as well. Um, but like that aside Okay Man, does it feel like you're playing nergal when you play this book feels like you're playing against nergal when you play this army They're hard to remove There they want to get in long protracted fights. The disease slowly chews you up Like they're great. They they really did a great job. The spells the abilities the allegiance Uh, the units and the way they act it feels like nergal. It's great And I think it's fun to build lists with nergal Even if I don't play it a ton, you know, whenever I get in there to do it, there's enough univerity that Uh, no matter what I'm doing it feels like nergal like you said, but also I like I have some variety So it's a best of both worlds a little bit Yeah, yeah, absolutely But uh, and and I I still think this is a shining example of like, oh This is when one of the times they really nailed it through to this day It was like this is this was such an absolute Nail it of the the feel of a book, which to me is like the most important thing Right. Uh, I think that like ultimately If an army feels good, whether it's weak or powerful But if it feels good to play Right people will generally play it like iron jaws maintained a relatively high Uh meta percentage threats entire existence And it has been up and down on how good it actually was in the meta Why because it's always fun to play a bunch of lunatic orcs that are flying around the board smashing and bashing and calling Was and stuff right like it's just it thematically feels right. You're like, yeah, I'm playing smashy orcs This is and this is what they do Right. So all right, tyler over to you. Give us give us your your thoughts on the trajectory the history that the your your impressions of this book Yeah, I love that show that we did and thought it held up. Well, you know, we were there were We were very positive on that book when it came out and there was a lot of negativity around it. Unfortunately Uh It it was a fantastic book It was probably I think the best book for my money in the game for a long while I mean, maybe up until slaves of darkness, I would say I I really like slaves of darkness when that came out They I think the book is actually subtle and How much you can you have been able to get out of it? There's a number of different ways to play it. You know, thomas, you mentioned the beast of nergal spam Obviously, we we were dominated by the blightlord spam. That was the yeah, that was the issue That was throwing things off kilter. They were too cheap and too effective and too high mobility Like they get they find all the worst things too much damage on too much tank on too much speed Like it's it's your classic problem. Yeah, absolutely so that was In particular pushing people away from I mean vents, as you know, I tend to think platonic warhammer Doesn't necessarily start but a piece of it is combined arms A variety pack list where you're playing in multiple phases that makes the games more dynamic You combine that with nergal Can elicit longer games, which I think is also part of good warhammer Where it's the rounds three There are a lot of games people have been commenting in the comments tonight Particularly nowadays I feel even more than the last 18 months where games can be dictated early Rounds two and three nergal. That's often not the case. You you stretch the games out I I love playing warhammer games that that stretch out going so I like that about it I think it has this it had this beautiful still has beautiful combined arms potential You can run really good variety the there are certain elements that I think could be sped up like the disease mechanic can be cumbersome it can be it can add a fair amount of time and how it works Um, but you can get pretty fast at it But that's maybe there's some changes you can make into how that functions to maybe try to speed it I'm not sure exactly how you would speed that up. That was just one one random thought Um, but yeah, overall as you guys said just an extraordinary book Uh, my frustrations with it obviously have come with mechanics With with the changes in the in the environment. Yeah, that has Now the ground shifted underneath them Yes, and this is where this book I actually want to use to make a point Which is this People chase balance in this game and speak about it as though it's like some state You just achieve and ascend to Right as though you will meditate long enough and then eventually you will gain wisdom and become the buddha, right? and That's not what it is like even if every book was launching with You know as near perfect internal balance as you can imagine Yeah, right They would still have to adjust points and armies would still go up and down often quite dramatically in the win rate Just because of the nature of what shifted underneath what what occupies the meta what abilities are out there What has become more popular to be run? What battle plans are there? Right, what's the season rules influencing like all of those things? Create this complicated soup where books will rise and fall and points will need to be adjusted up and down Where unit that was good will now be weak It's the it's the dragon thing. I just talked about right like Like even if if we didn't have some pushed books floating around the meta Right, the reality is as the world has changed underneath the thing This is what this is what I was talking about. You know sometime back when I you know said Oh, you know nurgle. I is one of the things I picked to be in a rough spot and The reason that I I thought that was going to happen was because I just thought the ground was going to shift underneath them Away from being able to run Attrition and that's just it when in a world where you can't win through attrition nurgles in a rough spot Right, the more armies don't care about disease points because they're like whatever I regen like a million models around like Oh, no, I'll take three mortal wounds Dude, I've jumped with you that I can't I can't do the damage I used to do can survive like I used to And I'm deliberately playing a slower list in particular sent around 500 points Of a model that wasn't a fairly problematic state when the book came out And that's the great and clean one and it's in a very problematic state right not not extremely like it was a little too high Right, it wasn't it wasn't that bad But it's in I think a very very problematic state right now trying to play the great and clean one in this current environment But anyway, I agree. Well, this is the first time you know the great unclean when we launched He's been on a downward trajectory ever since like he was okay At launch and has just gotten less and less effective and impactful as that as the world has shifted underneath him, right? Yeah, I have to wonder if just some points adjustments would help him out because All all you need is him to just be a fat body On an objective or something Maybe give him the zinch ability to summon so that he can do that battle tactic We haven't talked about battle tactics at all I remember we were not going to We were just thinking we don't we don't talk about that on a show Okay, okay, okay But yeah, that was my one comment Tyler the the guo, uh, I think I saw somebody else in chat mention it too The go is in such an awful place and I just want to see I want to see big cruel models and he's a big cruel model Yeah, I mean The this is my first example of great disappointment with a greater demon Uh, I just think one of the great failings of 3.0 has been how they've handled Like demon lords and greater demons Down the line. I think they're all At best average mostly bad I I'm I'm even counting bloodthirsters Okay, who have stood out as like the best Like they are the they are head and shoulders the best current greater demon As per the new cornbook and even then they're not the part of that book that wins you the games Right now, they're just not that's fair. That's fair. I agree. I agree with that playing the three bloodthirsters They're not the winners. It's the stuff around them. No, I mean reversers are so much better Like blood revers are a way better unit than bloodthirsters like by actual value. They'll derive to your army. They're easy to Uh, murder us around they kick back murder rolls back at your opponent at an incredibly economic Prices they're efficient. They're like one of the best units printed. Okay Like it's ridiculous and and You just do you're not get like don't be wrong that single bloodthirster that's leading the force who you've made a priest And you know has always strikes first or something that turns him into like a pseudo decent unit Right, but he's not carrying the weight None of the greater demons carry their weight and and like it just goes down from him, right? It's like him Okay ish to to maybe slightly touching into good occasionally with the right choices average the bird big bird bad the The Guo and then well, I was gonna say bad the goo. What that's fine. We could put him. I don't I don't know They're both way down there fighting to the bottom. No one's visiting them Like no one knows what the bottom is the goo and the keeper and then I'll also throw in the demon prince He's just out there being sucky somewhere in the middle as well Right and he's just like what a terrible tragedy and this is sort of the first run of it Uh is having these big demon centerpiece models just be like Cool, man. Okay It's quarter of my army. It's doing basically fifth to a quarter of my army. He's doing basically nothing Fantastic, you know, you love to see it. So yeah, I mean Okay, uh, what do we want to see in the 4.0 tone tyler? I'm gonna let you take this one. What do you want to see? Oh Let's see 4.0 tone I mean, I I do still like the idea of uh Of them having a five up ward if that's going to continue to be a thing in fourth edition It'd be nice if obviously that would be relevant in the in the environment the I mean a lot of things in my mind right now are related to just like the nature of where we are like A lot of their points are of a cost that you can you can address that um, some of their heroes are reflective of that early design where they don't feel relevant Uh, I think some of the design is off there Uh I I think oh one one key thing the sub factions So this was another early indicator of what I thought was a trend for too long with these battle tomes Where again, uh preaching from the church of combined arms Yeah, we're the we don't have a sub faction wants you to be super linear take a bunch of this You're very linear. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I mean, it's that really stood out to me I mean hammers of sigmar is basically that for storm cast sticks up ward. Okay, but Yeah So I would love to see something that some kind of incentive structure that better I mean, that's kind of a general comment. I feel like on the state of the game Yeah, so to to amplify that that's that's one of the main things that come to mind right now. Yeah I want to say keep all the great flavor And this time like in 4.0 Just do what we said about like really toned down the The regeneration healing and and restored like bringing whole units back that that Crab needs to be cut at the knees and and you do that kind of thing Magikin is almost perfectly viable in its current form, right? If they if they get if attrition actually becomes a way to play the game like Reopen attrition as a valuable playstyle by changing the things around magikin yeah So, uh, I mean, I'll just reiterate I just want to see the go matter because so much of the book is like on point There's not a lot for me to say I want to see the go matter and maybe future puke proof them where they don't have a lot going on aside from wards and disease, right? Uh, make it so that their wards can't get ignored and then Yeah, great like that's a that's a lazy design decision But you know, like I'm just throwing out, uh, like what could I see that would fit into Into the current environment without having to change 400 books So you're going for the the trace buster buster We call that the big hit strategy I've got the tracer. It's okay. I've got the trace buster. It's already got the trace buster buster Yes, lazy design, but you know, that's what I've come up with in 10 minutes Yeah, absolutely number of people have been mentioning, uh Heroes get the ward only and faction gets minus one a hit and wound. I've heard a lot of minus one of wounds Reference, uh, obviously we recently saw petrofex elite get rid of there They got rid of the minus one damage changed that to minus one wound on hecatos and uh, the harvester What do you guys think about that idea of like could be a perfectly fine way to go? I mean disgustingly resilience pretty much the classic thing for for nergo So I don't have a problem with it as as neg want to wound or a five up order some We're toughy tough people right like cool fine. Okay Yeah, I mean a neg wonder was a little more evergreen than than that But you know, like we then you're gonna then you're gonna have something come along That's like you always wound on a two up and it's gonna be like, all right. Well We've already always hit on a two up, you know, like, yeah, exactly like the the soul like they'll they'll do that for like a For a for a something, you know in a book and it'll be like, okay great And then they'll use it a couple more times and we'll be back in the same place, right? Yeah, so Okay, yeah, it largely this feels like this book needs fine-tuning and like plague bears are a great example I think I'm okay. They need the blood letters treatment plague bears die way too easily right now at 150 points six up or six up save It's practically you don't have a save with them essentially You're just down to your five up or right And they're supposed it's you're supposed to play on objectives with this army for the most part and you Can't hold objectives very well plague bears. So it's just yeah some fine-tuning has to happen And yeah, it doesn't feel like it needs a lot of design change. I agree. I think this book feels pretty good It's it's it's this is more like fine-tuning than than it is. We got to do some major surgery like the previous two. Okay. Yeah All right, let's get to some fire slayers uh, all right Uh Tyler what do you think about that? Yeah, I I'll give you mine. I hate this book. I still hate this book I think it's a bad book There you go. Well, well expand on that sure the Army feels all samey Because the way it's designed and the models and the way that they wrote the rules Um, the we had everybody was running some ridiculous Uh magma droth uh spam for a little while because that was the only way to do it There's three infantry units and they're not properly segmented enough Hearthguard berserkers were and continue to be basically the only unit worth taking Uh with volkites being traditionally overwhelming and oryx being traditionally underwhelming Like you do see a lot of volkites. People take volkites. I understand that. I'm just saying like They're not great. They don't they just not like they have some incredibly distinct role in the army You know what? I mean like they're they're just they do slightly different enough or slightly cheaper enough or or whatever that Yeah, okay, you take them, right? It seems like they're leaning into the combination with uh, the the new model the oryx Uh rune uh flame keeper or whatever that newest little model that looks like all the other models. Yeah And but again, that's like A recent development, right for most of this book you'd see like, yeah, sure two packs of 10 volkites. They're there to to Uh do the shield thing and die Right, like meanwhile my hearthguard are gonna be sitting around here with a four up four up or five up four up Or whatever it is that they generate and that's going to be my my unit Then I'm gonna I'm gonna rally them back on a four up or something Right. Um, I I certainly and I'm not saying Roland. I'm not saying Uh, again, I understand people have started switching to volkites now And people always use some volkites, but like for a long time people just spam magma droths Hearthguard have always been this thing that were like very good. They're just good. Yeah I find the army completely unerwhelming and boring. It's the opposite of an army. I like That's it And like any movement toward volkite is a very recent development because of that hero Most of this book has been either run a bunch of magma droths With a few hearthguard or a few volkites or something like that to hold points Or it's been like some volkites to die and some hearthguards do the work Yeah, yeah What do you think thomas and i'll go uh, I think that it suffers from something that you prefer to see and we've talked About a couple times, which is mixed arms. Um, it's hard to mix your arms when you're all just the same naked dude Right Like in a and their shooters are just so underwhelming I was you beat me to it. Yeah, it was like in a book of so few troop units How is it that one of the troop units is awful? They're they're they're like like drawing magma shot thing got nerfed in this in this book as i recall It's been a long time Yeah, it was too damaged previously against monsters Yeah, which is kind of interesting and it just has their movement or something and now that's like there's this like 10 flaming hoops that you have to jump through that's at least it's thematic It's fire But uh, you have to jump through 10 flaming hoops in order to like roll a thousand dice to figure out how many inches They're they're down and so it's different with each shot and you're putting down tokens and it's it's absolutely awful Uh, this is an army that I ended up getting for somebody when we first started this dream so that you know take a place something that he was interested in and uh, I really learned how like one note everything is and It's just like I do I don't know it's it just it just doesn't feel good when I play against it and it doesn't feel good when I play with it and I don't know I don't know what it is about it aside from the fact that it feels like every option is the same option and It like nothing like nothing feels great in the book I'm not excited about playing anything and the only lists that seem to do well are like All of your like your your listro mansters that are like, oh if I put 14, you know, uh, What's that? What's that foot hero grim reth berserkers in there? And and you know, I get the right matchups and then I'm gonna go 5.0 And it's really hard to play and it's really weird and it doesn't like It's not what it says on the 10 the 10 doesn't say play 14 grim reth berserkers Uh, yeah, I know I could I could go on about my disappointment with fireslayers Is a feeling in my heart, but you know, I won't we're going long enough. I'll pass it up to Tyler here Yes, it's too monotone Definitely hard to agree there a lot of the issues I think come down to what we always discuss and everybody always discusses which is the model range is way too Small and then there was a big miss one of the three troop types as you just said Thomas So I think fundamentally that's the starting issue I know I know you've been she made the point in the past where well We have iron jaws as an example of where you can make a book work You can make a faction work with a small range. So there's certainly a lot more potential I think you had to be realized I've but I've played them a lot played against them a lot and I've grown to appreciate some elements of the book I think The like artifacts prayers some of the guts of that book are notable I think they're interesting options combinations the There's some sub faction choice there not as much as you would like to see The you know, I like that you can run multiple magma draws. That's kind of interesting But yeah, I mean without going too long on on it. I think at the end of the day it comes down to It's not good and it would be nicely a little more model range In what we've got right now to add more flavor to this army I just like to throw out that yeah your comment on I guess you guys had talked about them Like comparing them to iron jaws and saying well, they've got a small model range You know, if you compare the small model range for ij All those guys are different Three slightly different brute units of the brute models, but it's not three slightly different brute units It's just you know, everything is very different very mechanically different pink versus brute versus arboy three It's not like like One build option like one axe or one shield Uh, yeah, I'm sorry fire slayer players. I know that there's a lot of folks including some guys locally that love this army but No one on this stream is feeling them So here's what I want to see in the 4.0 book for this I don't I don't really know if we need more units and honestly or not. We could do it with this Let's assume we don't get anymore. Let's take the most pessimistic situation, right? Okay, you could still turn this into an interesting book And the first way we're going to do that is not making every magma draught the same We're going to make some of the different magma draughts actually act differently Like by by just naming them them slightly differently Okay, and having some magma draughts that are more offensive focused and they have you know Sort of offensive lords on them who are meant to go out and kill some magma draughts that are more defensive focused, right? You call it like the the iron scale versus the fire tooth, you know, I don't freaking care, right? Yeah, they've even got the names the iron the coal hard ancient and all that stuff exactly units Perfect just actually like Make some of the heroes have very distinct roles where they stand out, right? Like this is the utility guy This is the defensive guy. This is the offensive guy and they they have pretty, you know delineated roles there now with the infantry Let's pull back into history and remember that these guys were built off of the slayers in the old world and let's bring that concept in So, you know, the fire slayers have been out there killing for money for a while trying to recover this They have to kill a lot of big things as they're they're going to be protecting the the the dawn bringer crusades like they're hired mercenaries protecting that and so like Some of the things we can do there are like our sub factions become or some type of allegiance ability Or something like that we incorporate like trogoth slayer giant slayer dragon drakoth slayer or whatever You know something like that like not dragons But use pick the new fun a os names and make them homages to the old things and then have them be good at different types of stuff Based on what they're they're Based on that sub faction, right? So they opens up different play styles different ways to go You know these are if you made them sub factions It could be like well these certain slayers just kind of generally move quicker or get across the board a little faster These are these particular group is like better on objectives. This particular group is better Fighting in enemy territory or against enemies who hold objectives like you know that you can you can easily imagine the the stuff that you would write into those rules to open up different different sort of play style avenues And that to me would be much more interesting and dynamic as a force Right because it could also pack in certain bonuses in certain ways, right? So like the drakoth slayer guys or whatever. It's draconith slayers, right like You know those they're really good against like hero monsters or something like that, right? Like they also get some extra bonus whenever they're attacking something. That's a hero monster as an army Whereas the like trogoth slayers are really good against Uh sort of high wound models, right like any model with more than four wounds they get But but that isn't that doesn't have the hero or your keyword or monster keyword, you know So basically they're good at killing like elite infantry type of stuff, you know, whatever whatever, right? It's just like that's your sub faction choice and it sets what they're good at So it's not like a choice you make for each individual unit. I'd like to see the sub faction So it's with a play style and a benny coming all wrapped up into one Uh, and then you can still have like the grim rath on those guys taking oaths and you know going to toward those layers In that point that I think would be the flavor win and then just make the four units act different hearthguard attrition anvil volkites hammer right like uh, and then and then uh, the um oryx, you know ranged glass cannon support like shooters, you know, it's not hard like three different roles. There we go Yeah, yeah seems pretty good All right, let's move on from this depressing part. Let's go Okay, uh, let's talk about i'd neth deepkin IDK, let's do the two things Uh, tyler What do you remember from my the idk launch? I remember complaining about them or being being a sourpuss when that when that book came out with constantinos. That was a lot of fun Sure And that turned turned out to be perfectly fine because we got bounty hunters and that's uh, fully kept thralls in check In fact, it's you may have led to not seeing a lot of thralls on the table uh, yeah, I I mean joking aside, I remember Thinking they did a excellent job with the internal balance of that battle tone I thought It was much better than the last book, of course, which was mostly eel spam And generally a lot of the war scrolls were quite playable quite interesting Uh, yeah, there's a couple things. Okay Thomas right, uh, as we get closer, I remember more and more of my hot takes. Um, The this one if I have to pick two the the first one that comes to mind is people freaking out about the kings I'm like, oh, you're just gonna run those games The kings fan, baby How many kings can you have not not enough? Uh, yeah Oh god. Yeah, that was a thing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, geez. And then the other thing I remember looking at more fan and thinking like it's it's it's a reverse world now. Like how are you gonna survive? Super wrong But that was that was that was my initial impression Yeah, I remember looking and thinking it was a pre bounty hunter world because this came out like just before it, right? Right and I remember thinking oh man thralls are going to be so amazing like domhain thralls Yeah, I'm just gonna go what are you gonna do when domhain thralls run wild on you? Oh domhain. That's what it was. Yeah Yeah, yeah, you're right. Um And so like and then of course that turned out to be nothing because then bounty hunters happen And it was just like well or or zero thralls get played I I remember thinking that I agree with you the internal balance is good But the thing that stuck in my mind at the time and I still do stand behind the thing I said during that show was Boy, does this book feel like it has a high skill floor and a really high skill ceiling right And I stand behind that I really think this is one of those armies This is almost like corn before their new book Or like you can do well with it But it was who could do well with it was limited to like a really small cast of people who really understood and know how to like exactly pull every lever With the army properly now It's also gotten it's aged pretty poorly over time like a lot of their strengths have been answered Very well in the meta. So even you're like that that Bar has gotten higher and higher and higher and higher for them Like I don't want to pretend as though it's just like oh everybody needs to get good Like that's not what I'm saying, right Um, I I think that absolutely the ground has shifted under these guys to make them just like They've they've hit and they've just been punched in the jaw repeat even even more so the nergal Yeah, more so than nergal. Yeah, this seems like one of the the ones that it's shifted the most Yeah, or maybe we should say more about that. I think so. What is this book doing? This book does not have a lot of high rents as far as I can remember It's got a lot of like minus one right minus two rent doesn't it does not do a lot of mortal wounds Right, so you're in a safe stacking, you know safe stacking has been a thing in this game Um, it it's not that durable. It's not doing a great rep replenishment. It's got a some ways of doing a little bit, right? Uh, particularly getting thralls back or reverse back But yeah, so like just a number of these as the game. Yeah has changed. It's it's not been able to keep pace It's it's very rough. I played against it. Like they feel Very hard to play right now Well, it's also just one more point on that I want to pick up at that just real quick And then Thomas I want to let you go for a while just to close this out They also relied very heavily on on various since under your mobility tricks that more and more people have Ways to answer through being really fast through having lots of teleports and ambushes and Model restorations and poppings their units back up and out in different places and stuff like that It's just like they're getting outboard controlled and just bodied On that kind of thing, right? Like there's not enough space for them to move and use any other tricks I'm sorry. Go ahead Thomas No, it's it's I think it's a hard hard lose Allegiance ability to uh to balance where you all like everybody fights It's too easy for that to just end up in a it's something that happens to everybody that's played IDK at least once Where you just get clapped off the board on the fight first high tide Yeah And if you if you allow them to have enough bodies that you run into the risk of not like no one being able to Get enough of their stuff off the board so that by the time they fight first on two or three Uh, they always just you know sweep everybody off the board and say, you know, good luck brothers I think it's a very zero to one army, right Thomas. Like yeah, it's like they either you either get destroyed or you destroy them There's not a lot of nuance There's so like I feel like there's not a lot of like room there And the only place that gives you that wiggle room is I think the unit in my opinion that has propped up the book This entire time, which is the reverse Revers the the the bliss barbs before there were bliss barbs It's the similar stat line, right? And like all the lists that I've written have been so heavy on rivers that I'm like Why don't I just run 90 rivers two deep strikers and then you know Just no deploy drop on the board and shoot everybody off and not even try and deal with the the allegiance ability so it's uh, yeah the I think the the allegiance ability itself is what holds the design back from being something that's a little more Approachable the problem is is that it's a beautiful army And I've got like a generally a new player that's been you know building this and every time he plays He's like I went in too early. I waited too long. It's like Bitch was saying that that floor is soup was was already super high And it has only gotten more and more and more unassailable as time goes on Yeah, yeah, I think Roland in the chat said no mortal wounds. No wards low wound count Yeah, it's yep. It's a tough life to live the current meta Yeah, absolutely All right Well, what do we want to see for let's let's just then quickly say what do we want to see for 4.0? Like how do we what do we do here? What's what's the answer? I mean, I think that's a great place to feel of a lot of this felt right You know, I mean like when we came out like it feels like a good book. So what's what's our 4.0 look like? Uh something some ability to have a little bit more chaff because if you can just lose units that you don't care about that Aren't too expensive. Maybe that helps Buffer that like that lack of bodies you can just throw some stuff out the way I don't know what that would look like like maybe that's a new unit That's a lazy way of throwing that out there Maybe you make the the defensive yields actually significantly cheaper and less good and then you can screen with those guys Um, I would also like to see the other idol on idol on the storm Uh Makes makes sense like right it's it's they're cool buckles and only one of them the the castor guy is we're taking So make that storm guy like a real Like like a real different model like maybe he doesn't need to be just about the same points make him way more or way less I just want to see I want to see it out there That's it talent Yeah, I like to tell us what you said about the the What's what's it called the tides table? Whatever that's called the tides of death tides of death It does feel like I mean we've had that since the very first book It does feel like it might be time to make some real changes to that Maybe push away from that mechanic But your point resonated a lot with me because that's always been my experience 2.0 and 3.0 now against eideneth It's an all or nothing proposition, you know, I generally just the games are dictated early on I feel that way about lumeneth. It's one of the reasons I can't stand playing against Techless and the sentinels is because there's no chill to those games those games are just right. They're just dictated early they They they're zero to one You you can't you cannot just hang out against them and try to like for the most part you you have to commit It with a lot of armies, right to to try to get into them So I don't like that about eideneth That just I thought a good example of this was actually to get the season war reference in for tonight ridge on jordan's birthday They played a game of new obr very powerful book as we discussed Against eideneth and ridges and both excellent players, right rich was running eideneth and to watch him try to Set that up the best conditions that he could and a couple things he couldn't quite do it And the game is just over like he didn't quite get the numbers that he needed, right? And he just fell apart immediately games over with recursion and the hitting power and the debuffing power Okay, so Yeah, I I don't know what that looks like But I would I would start with that table and they I feel like they need to be able to play Longer into games just in general because eideneth historically again has just been round two round three It's over one way or another and I hate that about aos when when armies are like that Well, then you're gonna hate my idea Excellent Because my idea is like these guys are supposed to be like lightning striking peratical raiders, right? Like they try they either see comes in they strike and fade and right and that's it I say lean into that like I think the answer here is we got a like they should be following the abc's They should be like ogres on fish, right where they always want to be charging Give them high rend high damage on the charge give them, you know Some like easier access to mobility like retreat and charge not necessarily run in charge But retreat and charge right so they're they're hard to pin down And make them high damage and high render on the charge like they go in they hit real hard And then they have to fade back so the actual challenge with them like they can wreck face Right They get in there and really do some damage with there Especially if they've got some shooting sport in the back to kid You know to take out key chaff units that are in the way And then the lightning strike units come in and hit real hard And then blow things up But the challenge for them is they hold like crap Right in the off turn when they're not on the charge then they can get smacked and knocked back into the sea Right, yeah, you can't you're right. You can't get away. They're they're a glass can I'm a rolling to set it like you can't get away from that Yeah, so yeah, and make it a full like trading army just make sure they're going to trade like if you expose something Oh, they'll trade it Right like they're going to pick it up Right and and make it just a very then and the actual army becomes a ballet of like can you make the smart trades and hold The objectives carefully while like that's the the skill of the army I think it's okay to have an army that plays that way Right, just make the reward like boy. They hit hard when they come in this could be uh So I've recently uh dan pit again I'm running a list the themed around his original thunder strike list So dan had been playing vigilores a lot and I've grown to appreciate vigilores because vigilores are market lighting Right they're giving plus one a hit. So that is an interesting incentive to run combined arms I wonder if there could be some kind of design like that where it looks like you're again I want to see more incentives in this game to run some reverse some thralls some right not just 40 reverse Not just like 18 ills, but yeah, you can absolutely design them synergistically to work like that, right? And that could be part of how they're so brutal on the charge, right? Like if the shark hits the unit then they get They get tangled in any unit that attacks them has an extra rent You know, it could be crap like that instead of like stopping pylon, right? Like there's no reason you couldn't go those kinds of directions To start making it so like oh then the reavers also like With their arrows are laced with a bioluminescent poison that makes it easier for the The other people to hit and it's like plus one to wound or something like that as it seeps in From other weapon strikes, you know, like I don't like whatever there's 50 narratives you could tell But you could have this thing where it's like when they're acting in synergy and striking in they just Explode units, right? Fine, but then if something touches them they evaporate You could even to encourage mixed arms make the tides of death rather than fight first just make a different unit better each round Sure, interesting. And so then you have different waves Yeah, yeah, do you like that waves like the workers do you hear that game? We're tough designers you like those puns, you know You have different waves of units coming in and different rounds, right? Yeah, that's cool. Love it. Okay night haunt all right This is fresh for me. This is our last battle report. Thomas hit me. What was your give me your give me your things on night Hotter your impressions when it came out to now I just thought so for when it came out The I just love the battle to him. I love the theme of it. Uh, it felt like scary ghosts um the turning off the battle shock and Like saving time on dice rolls by just making sixes to hit Auto wounds like that's that's great design in my opinion um And then I could see that I could see them doing that like fourth edition or something like making that a general I don't know changing something to do that more anyway. Yeah, and then the the the charge debuffs I really liked that. I thought it was cool. Um, and then fast forward to today I think that night haunt are just better cruel boys because their primary legions ability in my opinion Is the the the charging and that's a 2d6 roll and that's like the problem and At least in my opinion with a lot of the legions abilities with cruel boys is that it's all completely random and you know, it's not your control A a bunch of charge rolls, especially when you get metal tactics that rely on it and uh, and it's real tough to For a night haunt player to compete when you know mortal wounds are everywhere And they charge in and then they're awful off the charge because they don't have any of those those debuffs that keep them alive and I don't know Night haunt feels like an army that has as vince has been saying had the the ground Move underneath them while like everything else is You know, the rising rising tides has not, you know, floated all boats for sure Lift all boats, yeah Ghosts don't float. There's the there's the hot tank there Yeah, I mean these guys wanted liked fighting, you know More elite stuff lower wounds where they could like smaller unit count where they could sort of multi-charge and stuff like that And they weren't facing a volume of attacks that punish their ethereal. They weren't facing Mortal wound blasts everywhere that you know, just knock them down and cut through all their defenses because they are a relatively low wound by by volume army unless you're just like absolutely going to the rafters on on chain rasps, right? and the You know, so like again, they've just like they Really want to play a tempo game? Right where like they show up and they want to do like I kind of just described the idk acting Yeah, the problem is they just get lifted now so in mass off turn, right? And I mean what mistakes in my mind is this silly cruel gas stacking and stuff like that. How much traction that got You know, I'm glad that got yeeted into the sun. That was always dumb and terrible and shouldn't should like they shouldn't have needed that, right? um I think ethereal is a powerful rule But we also can't Overstate how good it is because like it has obvious limitations ethereal is really cool Four up and never getting any worse is like that's fun. That's good. Especially for that one unit. You can make four up five up Right, that's it's going to be a very defensive unit Especially against a lower number of generally elite attacks often Right, but if somebody comes in with like a million dice, you're just going to lose things like it will just happen So Um, I'd also like to say that the points hikes that they've got particularly on hex raids feels unwarranted I mean, I'm a baddie because I I took seven units to lone star with some heroes but like it just You know, it's it was an important like mobility piece for them like even beyond their base eight and you know taking that away or making it so that that's cost prohibitive just feels like You know, he's already dead What are you doing? Yeah, night hon was definitely one of the things I got wrong this year. I expected them to do quite a bit better This season the season of galley champs, right and boy was that I mean Maybe you should have been thinking about well people are going to be looking for responses to galley champs And boy have we found them in a mortar wound splash damage with how much of that is out there And obviously they really suffer from that They but yeah, I played against them recently and it felt like a very different experience than what I remember even just like four months ago so Yes, uh Maybe we can move on to like yeah, what what needs to be done to improve them one thing before we leave them here Which will transition well into the into the 4.0 Which is just this army is still very strong against certain armies Like they like we cannot understate that these guys are still a massive npe generation machine Right and there will be certain armies you play against these and it just feels terrible You're sitting there getting debuffed getting wrecked and not having the the the capability to actually answer it yeah and Meanwhile, I just feel like I don't even know what I'm supposed to do against this army. Meanwhile, you look over another Army is playing them and just just tearing them apart and like I don't get it. These are easy to kill What's your problem? Right, right? It's so like these guys are so night and day What they experience is like fighting against them, right? Yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah So, okay, so how do we how do we address this in 4.0? What what are these guys? Where do we go to? Gosh, that's super tough. I'm gonna say you got to go first because I got no ideas Okay, well, let me ask a question that maybe guides some of our thinking here. You ready Here's the question. Is this a horde army? It acts like it's it's supposed to be like it was stupid. Yeah, people play it like it is. How about that? Okay, then let's make it a horde army That's my answer Um, like figure out what the allegiance abilities toned down need to look like or correctly to look like when you've got that many units And wounds on the table Right, which by the way, I don't know that they need to change that much is my honest answer If they're all in turn if they're all really locked to in turn I think that's perfectly fine and maybe the answer is just like yeah Because I I think they are supposed to be a horde army. Um, I think they're they're meant to be So I just let them be a horde army Yeah, I've got an idea If you reinforce a unit get plus two to the roll as it pertains to the table for the the charge thing Like this disincentivizes Reinforcing yeah, yeah, like it disincentivizes you to to reinforce your units So make it like a plus two or a plus three for each reinforcement and all of a sudden You can start having some reliability with that and being able to reliably make somebody fight last or have You know multiple minus ones to save all of a sudden, you know some of these problems in my opinion start, you know It takes the edge off a little bit. Maybe that's not the only thing to do but uh Just adding in some reliability to a core allegiance ability that like they have to play with And then maybe making some changes to their sub factions so that they're not so like Oh, I'm quick silver dread. I have to take a bunch of Oh, I don't have I don't have any of the the like the bingo keyword guys. So I guess I'm emerald holst, you know hashtag actually spam Yeah, it's another one of those just hit the spam button. Yeah Yeah, exactly. Um, and maybe make it so that reichner is condemned or whatever that thing is where you can't retreat Isn't bad. That'd be nice Yeah, I feel like upping the wound count on this would actually go a long way, right? Yeah, just just getting that in there And I like everything you said there's well tyler your thoughts Oh, you have so many common flattening out the power spikes cw don't have it spike that higher fall that low Yeah, I mean some of their design can't write it It is a little bit random in the way like you can have a turn where you get hit with minus three save And then they go off But or you have a turn where they don't roll write those eight or nine They need right now and then they don't do much and obviously they're really one to hit and it's like, okay Yeah, so I yeah, I'm not hugely keen on that kind of design So I'd like yeah, I'd like to see some of that even out a little bit that the idea you mentioned though Thomas is interesting as a way of trying to bump up the The horde aspect of it Oh, I'm not sure. I mean make the black coach good make it great Like that that's like making a black coach good making cross booze good So there's actually more unit to more incentive to suck out amongst the units Would be would be a real value like give it had these guys had a decent ranged option that wasn't total garbage Yes, it might actually go in a good way. That would be interesting. Um, and you know just stuff like that um you could you know, uh You could even go so far as to like subtract out some ability But give them in some kind of like aoe mortal wound protection ability Right like where their discorporate just triggers automatically if like actually more than one unit is hit by a Spell that does mortal wounds or something like that. Like I don't know, you know Like those kinds of things could just could just happen like you could you could build in the sort of Small buffers against their very obvious weaknesses, right, which is just mortal wound spam slash mass volumes of attacks, so right What should the black should the black coach be a multi utility like a Thing you should be a monster like you should should have like a specific role should be multifunctional in this role Like I think back in the day it was sort of a mobile anvil. It would go in and pin Yeah Yeah, I think I think it should be a A multifunction tool if that's what you're asking. Yes where it's like fast I I would actually accept fast pinning and with some utility. I think that would be the answer Like it's going to be a 350 point model, which is probably what it should be Um, yeah as a centerpiece of that size then make it do it needs to do more than just one thing Right, it's got it's got to be right beyond Maybe lean into the model of like every every unit within a certain range returns one model You know just just a little stuff that just feels good Yeah, like some utility to lots of things around it a really really high speed to give it that the because just you mentioned like the mobility Right, and then and then also like make it pretty tough It's a hard to remove thing or if you're not gonna do that then make it really damaging So it kills what it's fighting and then they have to go answer. I don't care. I will accept either answer. Just don't make it Yeah, give it a job. That's all we're asking. He just needs to know Yeah Absolutely the way the way the arm is played is uh in my experience against it for the most part is it's this Moving blob of heroes with a cool gas Crusader and usually blade guys and spirit hosts protecting the blob and it kind of functions in that way There they have some pieces that allow for power pairing, which is cool. Like the The all rock or whatever his name is the drowner guy and then and then that other piece the Dread blade hero on the horse Uh, I I think that kind of design is cool Maybe we'd love to see a little bit more of that where it you can create these power pairs these trios that can function as like little groups On the battlefields. I mean, I know that pushes against the the horde concept But anyway, I think that could be something interesting that it could do a little bit more But yeah, just a random thought agreed all right baboom daughters of kane Okay so doc Uh Get sure get your bingo cards ready. Here we go. Okay. What do we remember from the launch of this book? Go ahead. Thomas. What are you? Tyler I remember I remember you complaining a lot. I never complained about dollars game It's only you all the complaints Just like a most busted army Yeah, I remember complaining that much. Did I what was I complaining about? No, it's kind of a running joke. I have I have some friends People will message me about so is vence going to complain about doc this week. I can't even remember like what all I know For for up rally, but I think that was legitimate. That's fair. Yeah, no, I'm 15 bo snakes shooting shooting with bo snakes in the hero phase I mean, I kind of I kind of hard time not agreeing with that. I'm not a fan of shooting in the hero phase That doesn't seem like a good idea from a design standpoint uh Yeah, maybe I don't know I'd have to ask him. I can't even remember nowadays. It's been a running joke for so long No, that's fine about dollars came what I remember is The garbage for up rally Okay, which isn't was garbage and remains to this day Right, and then not doing enough to address morathe in the bo snakes. Yeah That's that's the two things that jumped out at me from this Uh, I'll give an honorable mention to the fact that uh craith got more fun So yeah, so we're happy to see that the one person in the continental united states that plays that army Uh, we're gonna not regularly enjoy playing it. All right, so okay, uh, and then Thomas, what about you? What do you what do you got from doc? Uh, I Aside from the things we already talked about I don't want to repeat some of those. Um, I remember, uh, thinking that Oh my god, they are letting unit screen force more than twice Skaven. I'm so excited about Skaven. My my I was in doing a rat love at that time Uh, and then I'm trying to think what what the other thing was. Oh, yeah Oh, so I guess battle tactics won't be hard for everybody. Sure. I think this was the inflection point It was like Like the the ground came out from under my heart like oh, no like Bonus bonus points for your battle tactics. Yeah They get two points and an easy bonus point. Yeah, and they're easy like that Like if there's a third rail for me, it was like that they just like they were like licking that third rail They were all over it right Yeah Yeah, the mercant mentioned that the internal balance was really rough Unfortunately, I'm not like to talk seriously for a minute That was the thing that stood out to me the most with this book is Again, I don't know. I feel like I'm a one note like on the show But there are so many of these battle tomes that I the events always talk about just from the model range standpoint I want to see armies that reflect the model range I want to see some witch elves some do fire right give me variety pack armies Have that be sufficiently? It doesn't have to be the 50 net list or whatever whatever We're calling it nowadays, right the 50 curb stomping But at least where you a lot of people can play those right you have enough incentive structure in the game To run beautiful combined arms armies and have them be competitive on the table You'll see them at worlds, right? Like they'll show up at worlds. It's kind of I would love to see that But this book really failed on that front Uh, I it's just I have rarely seen those kinds of list be ran Uh, I've played to get some a little bit and I you can make them work decently But they're just not remotely the competitive option as far as I can tell like yeah It's part of the design right because of the hero face shooting in the You're in the four post rally on top You're not you're paying the piper when you're taking five bow snakes. I like what are they 180 180 now? Maybe that's what they should be 200 whatever they're at now But you're paying that because of the 15 bow snakes and the shooting in the shooting phase the hero face shooting Um, right. It's it's so it's it's some of this weird design that's going on that yeah It was just it was just a mess internally All right, so where has this army gone over time because I've got an answer It it for the first time in maybe the history of all of dock It's it's it's fallen Yeah, all right. Yeah, it's it's gone straight into the bin. Uh, like I never seen anywhere like no one's like No one's playing it. I think that uh season of war hashtag second reference Played a recent battle report where it was this versus the sole blight Right, and uh, it showed its age It showed its age in the hands of somebody that knows it intimately well, right And it's and it's all about the internal balance where You know things have moved away from what it was strong about and nothing About what was bad about it has been addressed Either by points or by you know that super rare rules change So it's just a shame like they're paying They're paying so much for what morathi does And if you're not doing the thing that she brings Then you're just you're saddled with this incredible tax that Doesn't pay off in the end for you like if you're not right shooting twice You're paying a lot for her and she's not doing anything Yeah, and you and you've got these make shorten these kits that hold up really well in the cauldrons and they should like to in my mind Number one we should be seeing 2k armies That are built around cauldrons as an alternative option alternative option And uh with some witch elves the what are the other ones called the sisters of slaughter? Yeah, but like that is I mean they try to do that a little bit with I think drakeganath with the rent um Yeah, so that that needs some love like building armies that are viable around those as a core piece So you can push away you have alternatives right to morathi. You just don't really have sufficient alternatives I'd say right now. Yeah, that's one thing that comes to mind Yeah, I'll say the ground is also shifted where they're they're a brand of trading again They're just not like hitting hard enough They're relying a lot on a spell to hit harder and nobody they're they're not they have no bonuses to cast They're not getting that spell off get give me a break right like that's not And which elves they die in droves like if you try to run witch elves and sisters slaughter right now They just they fall over. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just that that unit just gets lifted immediately There's no and that's nothing's coming back to that unit. There's no recursion there There's no nothing they're just they're just dead and they're still not the cheapest thing for what you're you're getting out of Right imperatively Like I don't let's just as a as a quick aside here. I want to take a look. I'm gonna bring up my app Okay, let me take a quick look here. Let's look up witch elves because I don't remember their points off the top of my head There they are Witch Elves 120 or 10 20 120 points for 10 Uh Okay, cool. Now. Let me just go ahead and look at zombies I'm just gonna do a quick search there Uh dead walker zombies got it got it got it where I get 20 of them for 115 for five points cheaper I mean, but can you reinforce it three times Vince? I'm just I don't know man. Just something about what I just said doesn't seem right to me 10 scantily Clyde women who basically do nothing Versus 20 bodies that do everything. I don't know They're like twice as much right That the the witch elves like it's a super expensive list to build which yeah I'd be while you don't see people trying to make it work like certainly Like even me with all my armies like I don't I don't want to try and and build 10 000 witch elves, you know, it's yeah Yeah, I mean yeah I I don't know what this book looks like in 4.0. Marathi obviously has a centerpiece of the army needs to remain functional and important Okay, but I agree with you that you should feel like if you take a slaughter queen on cauldron or something like that, right? That you you you have some option And this does have a lot of the same idk night haunt problem where you know off your turn. You're just getting punched so hard Yeah, right And yeah, yeah, go ahead. Well, so I mean it's like Start from the ground floor. What should be the identity of this book? I mean historically the identity was supposed to be glass cannon But beyond beyond that like okay. Well, we've got a number of glass cannon armies in this game So what what makes this what would make this an interesting glass cannon army? Sure. How do you separate this one like what we described as? Is idk Yeah, because I mean corn is interesting because the back of tricks that corn comes with and like the idea is that Well, corn had it's in this latest battle at home had its damage reduced Yeah, you can argue that a little bit as like as the recent five-oh player Maybe you'll argue like you can find damage That's pretty good in that book But they've got a bag of tricks that they get like that's a core huge part of their identity and why they're so good corn and yeah, so What what is that with this army the blood? The blood rights table is Uh, I almost want to say lazy It's just like one one small buff every turn. It's easy right and I can appreciate simplicity and rules design but as far as Needing to make this feel different Maybe plus one to hit starting on around whatever plus one to run starting on around whatever, you know, I didn't cut in it As far as differentiation so I don't know what you would do to make it different, but You could have blood rights, you know, similar to my suggestion with idk you could have certain you get a blood right table for like two factions One one focused on having marathi in the list one without and then one of them and then the when marathi's in your list Have her buff the witch elves Because they're they're frothed with you know, like fervor When she's nearby and then when you're using the blood rights for the non marathi list You could be focused on marathi's, you know stand-ins the snakes the kenari stuff like that Except for anything except those ugly warlock Sculpts, please put those in the trash can forever. Sure All right, so I want to answer Nicholas Bentley said our zombies good Nicholas zombies are either the best or second best unit in the game I will take it either either way Uh, I we could argue we have a nice fun Debate over whether they're best or second best, but they're What's that? Thunders all right thunders the other one. What are you squiggard? squiggard Oh, it's squiggard. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean thunders gotta be Scott thunders gotta be number three. Sure. Absolutely. That's up there The only thing that stops thunders is like you can't kill them and have them stay dead so Well, maybe they do before prolly, but sure I guess a fair point as well. Okay Let me let me suggest to you what is actually probably the mechanical fix, but that would be terrible. Okay Here we go. You ask, what's the identity of daughters? Okay, and let's talk flavor because I think this book Pretty good on flavor, but we can do better Okay This book look at how look at what marathi's doing. Just look at the cover She's like boldly striding forward into the slaughter Right as her shadow self does work over her her corner, right? Over her shoulder all her witch elves are just stabbing people to death. Okay So they're it's a frenzied army right Uh, so like if it wasn't the worst mechanical pain in the tukis the entire army should just have death frenzy Okay, which would really help them off turn if like give them all their buffs They fight all the time like this and and like they always have rend They always are relatively hitty and and accurate and good like basically It's an army of threes and threes with with at least neg one rend at minimum, right? So like everybody's at least got that no threes and fours. No need to have a person near them They're all relatively good and they all make a ton of attacks, right? And they all have death frenzy You kill them they fight back because they're frenzied now the problem with that is it's mechanically awful Yeah, I was thinking like the time it takes exactly like it's an it's a just a non starter because it is such an ungodly problem to actually resolve it right and so The the next way you go is you say, okay Well, then We'll just simplify it how we have been With everybody else who we want to have this kind of effect and we'll have them do mortal wounds when they die Right, that's murder roles. We're them looking at corn and going Uh, well, we want them to have death frenzy as an army, but that would be way impossible in a giant pain So we'll just let him roll a die, right? The problem is that's too good Right. Oh, okay Uh, so like and it just all of a sudden you way tilt the army army towards just spitting mortal wounds And then and then everything has to get more expensive And as I mentioned blood reveres become the best unit in the army because then it's just about like How do I get as much of this out there to die as as possible? Right? Um, so they have to be mechanically distinct from corn. So Here's my answer Marathi wants to have a blood orgy, right? Like that's what she wants Marathi's ideal setting is the opening scene from blade Okay And So like what she wants is this like thrust she wants to walk through the middle of this like thrumming edm frenzy of murder, right? and corn is Strongest sort of alone, right? It's a bunch of people trying to prove individual superiority Right, like everybody should be standing alone corn should be flavored to be like the the murder people who they're all trying to Out murder each other. They don't help each other. They're just there to to show like I can kill more than him More skulls for for them, right? Whereas marathi's like we're all in this together team We're all gonna go get blood for for kane, right and by kane. I mean me so What I think would be really fun is if we actually flipped daughters in its original inception worked as like this This missile army, right? You would like super buff a unit and missile it forward and super buff a unit and missile it for Right, right. That was when in the time when we all fought like one unit at a time That was a really really strong strategy. Okay But I think the right way to design this is to relook at it from the ground up and go actually no This is supposed to be like a murder frenzy party And so the more units in your army that are fighting In some relative proximity or just in general perhaps not even worry about ranges The more buffs they all get that's what the blood rights table is, right? It's not about killing you. It's not about anything just at the start of the combat phase How many of your units are in combat, right? That's the buffs your turn and enemy turn Right And so as the enemy tries to like go wide on you and draw more of your weak units into combat to eliminate them Right Then they actually end up buffing you because the the like Like the pick up that like the sandstorm increases The background And they're like they're ready to go. They're like, yes more murder. Yes and get fight with us more More, you know, like that's what they want. I like that Right, like you could you could even roll that into the blood rights and have the blood rights table just be Like if this is the first combat in the combat phase, they get this buff If this is the second combat activation in the combat phase, you get this buff and you can just Have a like a set table and then I look across it and it's just boom How how many combats am I going to have right? So yeah, so that the unit that you activate last, you know, it's been depleted But it does similar damage Then it's been hadn't exactly and so you get value back by Even if you've lost stuff and so that addresses their Their their flimsiness and the fact that stuff You know just gets you know whittled down and then it's not dealing any damage But you can mitigate that with you know, Vince's suggestion. That's a good idea This would also make them a really interesting and and Murdonky went exactly to where I was going to go Uh, I'm glad you're thinking in the same way. I'm it you would make this a very strong anti-alpha army You go and you fight and you alpha the whole army on turn one You just like instantly race their table to 11 and they're like, yes, this is what we wanted And just go ham, right? And like it doesn't matter that you are on the charge They're just suddenly get buffed to the nines and are just crushing you back for that alpha strike, right? Like they need to be it would be interesting because you would be then tactically incentivized in your turn To start if you want to engage other units to start retreating From combats that you'd like, you know, you're like, okay, I can't afford to have six Units in combat with you. I got to pull two out if I want to go fight these other two things So that's that's great because that feels interpretive too. It becomes an interactive Uh Mechanic now I desperately want this so that on my stream I can have a sandstorm button and then I can be a dog player I want to be blasted Sandstorm like tell me that doesn't feel more like with how the daughters of kane Like if you saw them fighting on the field of battle Every unit in the army would be rushing forward headlong Right to get into the fight like they want to be fighting Yesterday like the fact that their bloods are their blades are not Already coated in the blood of the enemy is a problem, right? So so reward that Uh with a sort of go-wide strategy where they they want to fight with everybody all at once Basically the opposite of how they've always been built and as somebody else said in the chat, uh Yeah, you go cinderfall. This also gives a real choice about marathi Because she's such an expensive piece. She would cut down on your number of units, right? And so naturally reduce the number of units you could reasonably engage with So I just think that kind of stuff would be that would be very fun By the way, that would also you could you could leave bow snakes exactly as they are And have double shooting in the hero phase and it wouldn't matter You would you would be so incentivized against them because bow snakes don't want to go get into melee And so aren't feeding your table. Yeah, sure So then you can yeah, you don't even have to nerf them because it's not like part of the the core design of the army and Like if you if if you want to eat into your your your ultimate like wind condition great, you know go ahead But yeah, you're you're paying for it. I'd like to call out a comment from coach. I agree I want to see the 40k avatar. It came playable in this. Sure. Why is it not? Why is it? It's so cool. It is Just what what do we do in here people? Come on. Yeah, it's so it's an obvious win. It's wild Okay, yeah, that's my army for that's my idea for daughters. There you go. I know we took a while on that But but anyways, that was worth it. It was so good This is an army that I I do love a lot and obviously I have a very big dock army And it just I haven't really been inspired to put it on the table. It's just but but uh Blood frenzy orgies would would get me to play it. So okay, cool All right Okay, here we go now. We're in the wheelhouse Uh Skaven All right, my two thoughts when this book came out Boy, this feels like a 2.75 book. Uh, apparently we don't get the 3.0 treatment. Uh, where are extra reinforcement points? I don't understand And gutter runners really good Maybe too good Very fun to list build I stand behind all of these points to this day I have played this army a lot, especially recently. It's been coming out quite a lot actually recently Um, I've got it on the table like three out of the past four weeks And honestly, I have a fun time playing this army. I feel so outgunned By I'm constantly facing like gloom spite and sole blight and and all this kind of stuff And I just feel like horrendously outgunned in every fight But this army's still fun, you know fun thing fun You just have such mobility and tricks that like it's a very tricksy army You have a lot of interesting outs you can constantly play to Uh, a lot of interesting optionality in the way that the army gets built still Like it is one of the most fluid and dynamic list building experiences because of the way Battle line turns on and off in the different units you can take and stuff like that Seems like I see a lot of variety usually I feel like like Relative to the baseline in this game of variety like it yes, it's above average Yep Uh, it's it is Very hard to play like if I understand why people would not enjoy this army This is a very hard to play army right now. You are weak your your zombie equivalent sucks Okay, like clan rats are complete trash. They're just warm bodies. They die instantly to anything that attacks them Uh and regenning a d3 in the battle shock phase is like a fun thing, but it does nothing your Um big heroes are totally underwhelming like the vermin lords are generally trash Outside of like the few very specific tricks they might bring to the table i.e. like Taking the the dude for getting warp gale or whatever, which is very hard to cast spell Um the fact that your vermin lords don't even have access to a spell lore is just like What what are you? Did you know that tyler? Did you know the chief demon greater demon casters you have do not have a spell lore? They don't I also stuck on you. Yeah, you saying that they're trash I mean, I thought the war bringer was one of the better pieces of this book And the the seabirds not bad, but I mean that's that's a real problem if that's Just because it's one of the better pieces of the book doesn't mean that like right Harrison. It's actually good Yeah, yeah, it's like They're just you you end up paying way too many points for what they're going to accomplish the war bringer's probably the best one The war bringer's probably the best and that's just for damage But he gets I mean he just gets chumped by so many other things god forbid any real hammer hit him He's he's gonna die. Um, I mean he's a dude on a four up five up Right like it's yeah with with like 13 wounds 13 wounds, right? 420 or something you're paying 400 for 20. I think he's like 400 now I think is what he is. Okay. Yeah, it's just too much. It's just too much That's so a bit. Yeah, like yeah, you're paying for you're paying for d3 death frenzy Which is super powerful, but it's so like you don't get any casting bonuses with these guys Right from standing next to their rat hole, which you know, I like the changes to the rat holes But it's not adequate for what you're paying and they're the fact they're on a base four up save Yeah, I mean this is the definition of combined arms how I play it to win it I have like a mix of so many different troop types I have chaff and these heavy hitters and some rat ogres over here and some sensor bearers And I've got gutter runners and night runners going out to screen first and you know different casters going Different heroes tiny cheap heroes. I want all the tiny cheap heroes I can get like I love Flooding with six tiny cheap heroes that I can spread around and and do things with and skitter leap and teleport It's just more options to flood to to not like jump and gnaw hold and gnaw hold skitter leap and like You know just trying to constantly stay mobile to spread around to pop out of terrain You know, it's that kind of stuff like you have to pull every trick in the book So it's it's very like it's very adaptive. You're not necessarily you're playing deep in the games You're being adaptive your uh, you have a yeah, how are you? You have a swiss army knife and everything is dull Oh my god, I was gonna say the exact same sentence Yes, it's so perfect Yeah, that's the problem. So I'd like to take a moment and talk about three claw steps ahead When this book was originally released rules was written Three claw steps ahead was the best rule an age of sigmar in my heart And like it was super fun was well, what's what did it do? What did it do, right? What it used to do was that It would allow you to if you took three of these grace ears or grace your keywords So, you know, there's there's ways to manipulate that but it doesn't matter If you take three of those same keyworded heroes You could uh in the charge phase you could like the first on the first modified role that you made for your charge You could use that for your whole army first modified run role. You could use that for your whole army Uh and And the first time you piled in in combat the whole army piles in as well So everything but that first unit piles in twice Now why is that why is that cool? Well, there's you know, it's a big book with lots of cool stuff And you could give plus three to run and charge to to your molder units for your master molder Well, they do that you charge with them first now your whole army is like you roll that and let's say you roll a nine Now you're old. You have a 12 inch charge across your whole army and it's it was it was amazing It was fun. It allowed me to run doom wheels, which is The the thing that I want to do in Skaven is run. We all do we all do And it was a unit that it was it was absolutely functional. It wasn't like it wasn't ruining everybody I mean don't ask Shannon Shannon felt like it was awful, but you know, it allowed you to Charge those doom wheels. It allowed you to deliver Skaven Which is the point I'm really trying to make is that right now Skaven suffer from a lack of delivery in my opinion Like you you can make these absolutely Horrifying like storm vermin units of 30, but you can't deliver it. They're like witch elves like they're before they're they're the doa And you know that was your delivery method and it cost you a lot of points cost you a hero spot It cost you rats or some rat ogres Uh, and and they just nerfed it they nerfed all of that and to make it unmodified roles Which I guess is consistent with some of the other stuff But man it it turned off everything that like really sparked joy with me when I was list building And so I don't play them as much The only thing that works and and vents you can agree disagree Is stuff that's like the cheesy pop up and shoot a thousand mortal wounds, which who's who loves playing against that Like when I'm playing games I have fun when everyone else is having fun And no one else is having fun when I pop up bottom of one shoot a trillion mortal wounds Double them lift everything No It was anyway, I could I could go on and on and on about rats I mean like like think hole in the boat is an example of that or like what what's an example of that with What's given just got a runners. Got a runners. Got a runners. Yeah. Yeah, good runners. Sorry. I didn't use the name Gotcha The ninjas and their and their big boss the most deadly of all slink who by the way slink finds his way One of the few underworlds war bands I will talk about because slink finds his way into basically every list I write that dude is such a such a haas with his unit He is just like a plus all the way. That's how you write out. That's how you write an underworld war band Looks cool Works really well. He's not too cheap Like you pay for him. You pay for him. I don't know. Yeah He's a fragile little guy, but he does the dirty business So I'll I'll I'll put on the the move along. Vince. What would you do to change this in the 4.0? Oh Yeah, um so many like Honestly conceptually thematically There's a lot that's successful and correct here. There's a lot of like risk reward you can choose It's mostly in your favor But if you keep doing it you will blow stuff up you will die you will kill your own units Right, but for the most part it works like rattling on overcharging is a pretty great example I'll do that all the time every time and twice on sunday and be happy about it You know like most things I think are working mostly in the space where they should be It's just a question of like the army still isn't actually a horde army I will run into reinforcement point issues if things are working. I do agree with you There should be some better Delivery methods not just retreating type stuff But it's always been a tempo army where you're supposed to take the hit and then beta strike Like it's always a bit it has always been a beta strike army Since its inception the question was just are you doing that with shooting or are you doing that with? Uh with melee guys who who clap back right but like going back to war emmer fantasy days. That was always it's it's you know Uh, it's thing. Uh, I agree with you warps don't enjoy your thick band the guy who keeps turning 16% backfire odds into 80% Yes, people understand math yeah, like um But like I like a lot of like the feel on a lot of this stuff is correct Right, there's a lot of risk reward. What needs to be better the greater demons need to actually be good This goes right into my earlier greater demon conversation The the the vermin lords are greater demons and they all feel like garbage Um for the most part they they should all be up in the 400 point range is my honest answer They should all be in all greater demons should cost somewhere between four and 500 points and they should be models worth Four to 500 points Like a fifth through a quarter of your army is a big investment Right and and the model should be delivering at that level Um and just actually take the time to write the book like as someone who loves this I don't know if maybe no one in the studio really playscaven or loves them or has the deep knowledge of them But uh, you know, I do I'll happily give you a draft I I work very expensively But I do but I will get turning in a good quality draft um now like Make the screaming bell not suck You know make the the like pick up the the internal balance on this is still all over the map All over the map Right and it's a big army. I get it. It's a really big army We can retire some more units We can do it. How many how many fine casts do they have notice? Many, uh, I mean the two oldest models in the game exist in this army Okay, yeah, they're metal. I think right correct 1993 and 1990. Oh, wow Yeah, the the plague bunk uh hero and then the back lights. Yep, the plague priests and the lights correct. Um, uh plague priests released in 1993 in december the uh acolytes released in 1994 in february So um, literally celebrating its 30th anniversary this year, so very exciting uh you know like What this army needs to feel like is that it's meant to Get hit lose stuff and then strike back and lure you into the trap Right. So it's doing a lot of good things with all the mobility and stuff like that uh, but The the real key is just like we have to kill some units and we have to then up the internal balance The screaming bell should not be utter trash. Um, we can get rid of the dumb rats have to move the thing around That's just a that's just a failure of a rule. Like I get it. It's cute. It's thematic. Stop it Stop it Okay, I'm not gonna take a 300 point model that can just accidentally be stuck sitting in one place not doing the rest of the game Like obviously that is such a huge drawback It's I can't even I can't even fathom that Right Imagine any other centerpiece modeling any other monster where it was like If x happens, which is highly likely this model's move becomes zero for the rest of the game and it cannot be teleported Yeah, yeah, if Yeah, if no models died in the previous combat morathe can't move because there wasn't a bloodshed like Never take that model never Yeah, okay, if you just actually wrote out what that rule does in reality, you would never take that model So like fire that off the roof, please and thank you Okay and Uh But for the most part with this one like it needs to be a horde army So if we're going to keep reinforcement points, we've got to up the crap out of them Like scaven should have options to just go ham and go forward Like get get hard in the paint Right. I hate that like I very frequently bump up against the reinforcement point limit in this army Very frequently when list building Okay, uh Even with how I spread out my stuff because it's like if you like and by the way, you should be incentivized for bigger units In somewhere like that should be a thing Um, there's some things I'd like to point out that I like them to keep Right because the book wasn't all misses. We've come like we like to focus on the stuff We didn't like but uh, I let the list building you mentioned it briefly But uh, and I mentioned it and how I'd like to see oryx run to have the way that they do like you bring a hero It unlocks stuff so you bring a lot of heroes and unlocks a big thing like that's What do you mean like it turn it makes them battle line eligible? That's what I mean or for each hero of a specific sub faction or you know Theme whatever the the plague guys the the fighty guys the the mechanical crazed guys Right for each hero you bring it unlocks a specific unit or a couple units as battle line per hero And then in addition to like you bring one Gracie or something happens you bring You know three Gracie years to get three claw steps ahead. So okay as a design don't get rid of that. That's amazing Um, they they did take one step to try and make horde building a thing where with for every 10 Uh unit models in a unit you increase the range you add one inch to the range of uh models Which was great The problem is is that then the clan rats have that return d3 models at the end of the The the battle shock phase it'd be nice if that was multiplied by the number of reinforcements Uh, all of a sudden taking multiple clan rats makes more sense because you're not losing You're literally just losing out whenever you uh on on additional, you know model returns when you don't When you reinforce your clan rats Um Like I think that's it for me as far as like what I'd like them to keep it's just like there's just great stuff Oh, I'd like them to throw 10 000 artifacts and 10 000 command traits in the sun Um, maybe have a lot that's fine, but personally, um, it just it's hard to it's hard to manage and it's hard to explain to new players Oh my god. Yeah, the artifact command trade list like navigating this book is so Wild 2.0. It's it's so 2.0. Yes. Again, because this is a 2.75 book, right? It just it's not quite a 3.0 book. Um Like I just I just I warped though and I'm just not going to do that like I get that you can but I'm just not like that's like I hate corner shooting crap like that Like a book shouldn't rely on that kind of stuff And I'm just I'm just not going to play in that space Right, like I'll put D3 miles back. I'll put them back in an intelligent space But I'm just gonna like willingly break coherency because of when it happens like I understand it is Okay in the rules, but that doesn't make it okay in my heart Right like I I just want to play the army Right not have to like I hate angle shooting Uh, so and that's not me coming at your warpstone. Like I know you have as deep a love and arm for this army as I do Your name says everything But like I just I that kind of stuff just drives me crazy Yeah parting thought uh play clause Will you ever be good? Yeah, can we make them actually do something? That'd be fun. It'd be fun, wouldn't it? All right, there's so much potential in this book It's one of the most unique factions get somebody who really loves it and and can make something so, yeah And uh, yeah, there you go Good a plus Please don't make them an all shooting army because at certain points of time they have been that in their history I don't want to see that. They should always be The combined arms you want to take a bunch of units have have all your components on the table The combination of the clans and stuff like that working that should be the the platonic form of this army. Yeah. All right So many more. Okay, we got to move faster. Here we go. All right Uh, silvaneth Tyler what do you think? Yeah Uh Yeah, I thought so this book was better than the last book this book Really leaned into I think one of the core themes that I would imagine silvaneth orienting around which is strike and fade Strike and fade that allows them to have a unit in their turn Go in Find a combat and immediately get out of dodge. It's quite powerful It can be a bit of a rough feel to play against until you get accustomed to it But I think it's quite thematic I loved I love this book Uh, really nice job. The this book in my mind is reflective of Still a great period of battle time design that we were in where They could have had a huge mess with this book if they had under cost of these units They didn't arguably they over costed some of these units when the battle tone came out Obviously much better to do that. It kept the book in check in a healthy way But you so saw four ones five those Pretty good variety We saw the most variety that we've ever seen I think Probably yeah ever and so but I don't know that first that first battle time was really good and variety but About everything is playable in that in that book apart from spite revenants They didn't quite get there and dryads didn't quite get there. I think which is kind of an interesting conversation Why did not why did dryads not get there? What did they need to to come back? We you know, we really moved away from a horde army with this army We had that for a little while right a lot of dryads Frost our phoenixes running around But so it's it's pretty elite what we've especially seen as hyper elite I would say with like tree lore, you know, oak and brow That's been the biggest surprise to me of this year arguably is how Many four one five oh oak and brow list I've seen in the meta of the last number of months But yeah, the theme wise variety wise points wise Pretty pretty high on this battle tone Okay I went to a tournament with uh with them a one-day rrtt Not too long ago with a list that I was given not not that I wrote And I was surprised that a bunch of stuff that they gave me that is not meta This is actually pretty good like the the acorn of ages that were shocked won me games Yeah, um, there's a lot of interesting stuff in the book Two inch range on the great swords, please. What are you thinking? Um Then aside from that, uh, I think that my personal miss was the uh, the The spice warm not spice warm guys the uh The the bow people that were doing mortal wounds that we all I don't know about we all Oh, yeah, got some of our chairs the gossip archers. Everybody was really worried about including me. I saw them I was like, oh, uh, oh great. Here's what we really need, you know, right like they back up You can't kill them yada yada, but they ended up being a big nothing sandwich And I think it's just because It's so easy to pick them off at range and range has gotten more common They're very much a dependence. Yeah, exactly man. Yeah, and they uh, they are they need a lot of magic Um, in my opinion to really be super super at their tippy top best and they have In my opinion kind of weakish magic Uh, and then they suffer from it, which is why I think that you see more monster mashers winning. That's just me Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. There's the the army was always a ruby Goldberg army You fire up the ruby Goldberg machine, right? And if you can't then yeah, it's a very different army experience Yeah, there's a little bit too much of that and rolling your right. I mean, there's arguably An inherent potential for negative play experience, especially the strike and fade. I think it is Yeah, an army you have to get adjusted to But the the design inherently does elicit more of that than maybe many people would like I think that's fair with the night with the nature of how it plays It's a very it's literally a strike and fade army like like when the book came out It was difficult for it People had to figure out how to play on primary objective scoring for example Like it can get down and scoring early on because it just it wants to keep its distance move around the board Kind of like eldar craft world in 40k for a number of years. It's it's very much that style But yeah, I think that's a fair point rolling Yeah, I don't I don't think I have much to add to it except to remember that Obviously a huge part of this for a while was the very annoying war song Purple sun the yada yada on there. There was I can't forget that that Dark moment in history. I'm just like, oh, you're on the other side of the board And I can't do anything about it and somehow you're casting a spell at me And it it tripped one of those things that I really hate where it's like, I think all things I think all unbind should be measured from whatever stupid point you're measuring from to cast the spell Okay, like just because you talked through a tree great. I'm gonna unbind the tree Okay, like if that's where the magic comes from that's where I'll shut it off at All right, like I Uh, it just that kind of thing just bothers me. I understand a lot of people hate strike and fade Um, you know, what do you want to see out of the the 4.0 of this book? Like what what does this world look like on the other side? Is it just this? but Because I think flavor-wise if this is the most accurate Yeah Feeling sylvaneth strike and fade army sort of we've got I mean that not like the mechanic but like the actual right and we Did we have any mention like we we railed for years along with others, right? Sorry I'm holding my hand up and we railed for years on the need for them to Give us the ability to make existing train features wild woods And they they finally did that right they didn't completely remove the wild woods But like it's at least I don't know I I'd still kind of like to see the army It's fine, but it'd be nice to still see the I wish we just had one faction train That's the seven of wild would you put down in the start of the game when you have a faction? That's normal when you have a faction train piece and then yeah, you make existing train But that's whatever it's fine like it it works Uh, thomas do you have any yeah thoughts on what you'd like to see with this? I don't know. I think they did a lot of right things with it Yeah, the gossip is please make yeah make them different. They're beautiful. I want to see them on the table I don't care if they're killing me. I just want to be odd by them um the The two inch range on the the great swords make them competitive with the sides and then as far as like faction legions abilities I'd like to see them combine the the wild wood and the overgrown train feature into one keyword because I I was playing it for the first time and I was like You know in a twist trying to figure out what thing goes to what and I can do Yeah, I wouldn't miss from an overgrown but not this and the dida dida dida dida Simplify it is too complex if you if you simplify it and then you know make some small adjustments I think that you know, it's it's a hard army to play And it punishes your mistakes, but if you if you figure out how to strike and fade Uh, and when not to Then it's perfectly perfectly good. It's when it you know it wins. So Yeah, I almost wonder if dryads need the two wound treatment. I mean that might be sacrilege, but It the the game does feel like it's at a point I mean, they've got minus one you can minus one to hit minus one of wound five up board It does feel a little bit like obviously I haven't been playing this army forever If I were playing this army, I would be out going to try to make dryads and lady of vines work as a list concept Yeah, I was just saying let's see a lady of vines actually be something Yeah, like I've never seen anybody like even a four one or five. Oh with dryads And lady of vines is like the crux of your list and you're building around some tree lords and so on So, uh, maybe I can get there and people are just are not doing it But uh, it does seem yeah, there's a little bit of miss despite remnants Yeah, like just need some tweaks like they're not they're not that far off But I actually think they're pretty good personally. Yeah, they're yeah It does feel like there's the potential that they're just being overlooked and you can get you can get some mileage out of them So Yeah This is just another book. I thought was generally a home run, but there is the the potential for negative play experience And another high high school floor, but but high or sorry. Yeah, I mean my answer to this is in 4.0 keep most everything It just needs to re Rebalance with the rest of the the world like again if they were doing the whole like Let's think about the scope of all the design We're going to do for all the books up front and write the one pager You could pretty easily put these guys in a box that would make them Uh Stay competitive throughout the rest of the the addition rates. Make sure they have their lane I I don't think you need a revolution in this book. I really don't right? No Yeah, okay, uh disciples of zianch Uh, all right, so dot Uh, what do I remember about these guys? Uh thinking Yep, that's another disciples book. Here we are. We've got fate dies still and we're Doing magic. I mean the thing that honestly stood out to me to me about these guys when they came out was Huh, I really think that's an interesting mechanic on the Uh sky fires. I wonder if we'll see something like that mechanic again And we did uh, but yeah, I mean overall they're they're what you think they are, right? Like they didn't really change that drastically much in between things they rely on quote unquote cheating through the fate dice they uh You know want to be there a magic heavy army they love throwing mortal wounds at you They're a pretty competitive army like they're they're strong in certain builds actually which sub faction has been better Has sort of floated around we've seen guild. We've seen other things like that They still have a relatively mid-range kill box that if you wonder into and it ticks to their turn, you're dead Right, uh, so, you know, they're they're a prickly porcupine Um horrors haven't been as have been suppressed a lot Over in a sense the launch because of things like bounty hunters and things like that keeping Uh, these guys largely in check for a while And just the general damage in the game making them less appealing Yeah But you know, they are and and plus actually pointing them closer to correctly Also helped so they're you know, they're pretty expensive Which rather I think all that is justified I don't think these guys should have ever been just crazy wounds spamming able to cheat their way into like 300 wounds through pink horrors um But you know like I I think that the For the most part it still Felt like zinch to me. I guess is what I would say I don't know. What do you guys think? So I've played Zinch tournaments more than anything despite the fact that I never had any intention to do that It's just uh, it reward it rewarded for me like planning ahead of time. I play with a spreadsheet And it tells me what to do with my 13 spells that I was casting now It's down because they kept kept getting nerfed and I think there's a good reason for that um When they first came out my impression was oh, I guess p cores are always, you know, still splitting The whatever the spite the the one where they just pop off mortal wounds and are just gone You know, that was it's still awful. I don't know why why you imprint it, you know, what what are you doing? Um, and the I was worried about the Uh, the the sky fires which ended up being a a non issue Uh, I'm surprised that the chicken builds are all winning. I'm awful with it. I don't know I don't know the secret chicken magic. I the guild of seminars. Yeah, the guild of seminars I don't I don't have the secret to chicken magic So when they're doing their chicken dance, they're they're doing they're doing it better than me Uh, but it's it's like Despite the fact that you get a lot of people complaining about mpe against zinch I have my my best games Uh with people With a mpe army with zinch because they just kind of go in and know what's going on and then just I just barf mortal wounds at him I think the thing that surprised me most Uh Down the road. So, you know the early stuff the the late stuff was that I I end up loving the uh, the zengours I think that people are sleeping on those absolutely ridiculous laser beams He's surrounded them with your wizards and then you use 18 inches hero phase. It's not a ranged attack. You just You're just war of the worlds blasting through their army massive mortal wounds Um, it's a it's a it's a strong book And despite the the nerfs. I think that as much as I hate it. I think that They kind of have it coming because they they keep winning It has remained a pretty consistently high win rate army for its for its sense of its inception It's hard to play if you were having trouble with zinch write a list of everything you're supposed to do Uh, based on your matchup and then just do that thing make a plan do the plan zinch hashtag How Impact bold their success has transpired been in your opinion thomas For the people who can do the chicken dance, uh, it's it seems to be critical Uh, they pretty much they you know the I think that the I don't know the people's names I'm not you know at the big tournaments all the time, but I know kaylor walters Kaylor walters, that's the guy like he likes to bring For them what I've seen the crown spine and he uses that as like a slowing piece because yes What keeps zinch alive is its ability to slow you down Like what I'm playing and I was playing 13 spells and I was just like You know rattling through a bunch of stuff and then generating A minimum 10 blue whores Every turn I was just slowing you down those blue whores weren't doing anything But I was just throwing them out putting them in the way slowing you down And then slowing you down in that 18 inch kill zone And so I think that I know he's just doing it differently You bring the the birds the birds feel overpriced, but I'll tell you what uh, they win the games. So Um, they're not they're not a sexy choice, but they are A game-winning choice, you know and certainly kairos feels like the best named demon maybe Maybe even more than scar brand We'll see we'll see how I feel about that when we talk about star scar brand. Yeah, yeah Uh, I mean overall for the 4.0 version of this to me It's like I don't know pretty much the same just make sure the points are right like This feels like it needs some of the silveneth aggressiveness when it comes to to pointing But the mechanics are all what I would expect and in the right place. There's some units. I would touch up Um, and make sure there they feel more playable. I'd probably give zangor is a good pass Enlighten need to be doing something skyfires need to be doing something Uh, it's like they're they're a trick is fun, but no one's really taken them Um, you know like I so there's there's obviously units to touch and fix here I don't want to pretend like there's not but for the most part like Taken as a whole I think the army is in a in a pretty good place both thematically and how it feels It's it's always been pretty on point to the zingy theme going back to the beginning And I think it should kind of just continue that Yeah, they don't don't bring back those those things that you're doing those pre battle tactics Like I right it just felt like so much extra work. I'm glad to get rid of it. Yes. Yeah nightmare Yeah, the sickness just mentioned the archonites. Yeah, I haven't seen a lot of I mean I'll see like three by ten archonites as chaff and But not like bit lists that are centering around them or them as a core part of the list and I mean in more meaningful way But yeah getting definitely need I think more variety at least based on what I've seen Matt I wish there was more interesting uses of fake points outside of summoning He referenced what we've seen with some of these other options and some of the more recent books Uh for you know other ways you can use so many points. That's kind of an interesting idea Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing some of that design in there, so That's fine as long as it was very expensive I'm sure. Yeah. Sorry. Just generate the living Jesus out of those things. They are pretty well tuned like why right? I could see it if it was like a high number you get a bonus and you move all the summoning costs up and stuff like that Like sure, you know in general I'm a pretty big fan of like reducing the amount of stuff you can summon in the game Though I'll say if anybody is summoning anything like if there's any army that you look at and go That's the army that summons it would be zinge Like this is the one army that makes sense to be summoning there. They they like do that That's a thing. Yeah That is in their identity Right So, yeah, okay, cool. Uh, whoa, whoa, ba ba ba ba sons of behemoth Uh, so Sons of behemoth Things I remember about the launch of this book Super fun new monstrous rampages that were very cool and You know sort of like wwe stuff and then Uh, we got a we got an actual priest and a new giant Like incredible new actual units through the new kit And uh, they're terrible Basically since then they've just been on a complete downward slide because they All all the the the last battle Uh Pack pretended like this this this army just didn't exist It wasn't like they you know, they they they represent the classic conundrum of the big like their incentive is to go stand on things and hold things and then die I don't feel they did a good enough job addressing that. They should have went with my idea They went with the exact idea I knew they were going to do because it was the lowest hanging fruit and it was so easy And they picked that fruit, but it's a poison fruit And that's the diminishing returns on the what you count as It's a perfectly fine book They made the damage more random, which was good But then they also did things like lower attacks in places where they didn't need it The damage should be higher I know that sounds insane, but it should be like a lot of these guys can just whiff and just do nothing It's really easy for these giants to just basically do nothing That's mostly been my experience against them. Yeah. Yeah, they don't they don't do remotely the damage that I would I was accustomed to previously. Yep, right Um, I'll say My best game of like my best games of aos Despite everything has been with 10 Baby gargants and one of your gargant. Okay. I cannot tell you how exciting it is to redeploy 10 times in a turn It is it is it is a drug in my heart hilarious I want to address this Roland. It's absolutely not sliding. I understand what you're looking at for the numbers I looked at that table too. Yes, their numbers are like, okay That's the wrong number you're looking at their win rate. Their meta percentage has dropped like a rock Okay, like a rock. I mean there is basically these are this army basically doesn't exist in competitive Play, okay, if you look at their actual meta representation So, yes, the few people who are still playing them are holding the win rate relatively solid Like pulling down three wins is not that hard with this army still because there's if people don't know how to play against them You can just go stand and win So like that pushes you toward a 60% win rate and the few few few people who are still playing them Know very easily how to get at three wins Okay, one 1.9 percent is what we're at right now 1.9 It's I'm shocked. It's still that high if you like and that's that's a roll up over what how much time Uh, yeah, that's that's what the uh in 3.6 with the latest battle scroll. It's down to 1 1.5 Yeah, so yeah, yeah, it's fourth fourth fourth from the bottom right like I just Like it's so like that's the problem when you look at win rate alone. It hides truths, right? Look at what's their percentage of also going for one or how many 5o's or what's their meta representation? Like you have to look at the larger picture and these guys just The season doesn't care about them It's not written for them And they're a hard army to win with it doesn't do a lot of damage and wins by just basically standing around Like it's the best thing you can do is avoid combat as much as possible with these dudes Which is the saddest way to play. I just think more. Yeah. Yeah So, uh, Vince, what do you want to see in 4.0? Uh, well as I said, I want to see their objective capture mechanic fixed So it's not so their incentive isn't just to stand there. It should be an active Mechanic i.e. they count as a bunch when they charge Or if they destroy a unit something like that, that's what makes them count as a bunch when they prove When they're either trucking in Or when they prove that they're the biggest and the best Right, that's what makes them count as a lot and capture huge. Okay Uh Otherwise they're not that much more impressive than a normal monster if you want to give them like the cap is 10 like an ogre Boss normally, but then if they kill a unit or charge, it's doubled That something like that would be the way to go Right that way they have to stay active. They want to go get in fights. They want to be in combat To to actually get their large objective capture um Like they don't need any more defense their defense is just fine putting that many wounds on a four up save Is perfectly acceptable. I think the current defense is correct, right because you know like It is it is a dps check. Let's not kid ourselves here. It's still 140 wounds, right when the average in the game is like 120 um And I'd like to see some of their damage Upped like I don't mind the swinginess and I'm fine with it. Just give me like big spike turns when they happen Uh, like basically, uh, some of the attacks were put down or like some of the attacks were like halved and then the damage was not compensatory to that change, right? So just It doesn't need to go off the charts but like Uh, yeah more smash less. Thank you. AOS coach summed it up perfectly. He said he said the right answer more smash less objective control Yeah, I am It's the easiest answer. It's always been there Absolutely, right um I just like to see some differentiation On the new gargant the the the b smasha like it's got it's got a to to narrow a roll Like these are so these these models are so expensive and there's so few of them that you could make fighting each one a tiny minigame with some inventive rules Uh, and that you know engages the opponent like oh, this is the b smasha. I gotta you know Like I gotta do this. I gotta fight him with this type of unit or or whatever And then have the b smasha have an interesting attack profile that isn't like I I want to smash beasts And that's just monsters and I'm fighting night haunt. So oops list building So that that just feels bad. Um, and wish list big wish list, uh different like variety on the man crusher model like I customized all 10 of mine heavily But you know, it's just it's sad to see that same It's funny because my wish list would be to heat the man crusher into the sun But he does an important part of the army like all I care about the bigs, baby. I'm here for bigs Uh, but yeah, I get it. Uh, so yeah, that's that would be my son's like it's a perfectly valid army It's funny too because my 40k army. I'm gonna be playing in 10th is imperial knights. So I guess I've got a type You know, I like them. I like them real thick and juicy Uh, so Okay, uh LRL lumineath realm lords um I I have no memory of this book releasing because so many of them came out I can't separate what my thoughts were at any one time with any one book Uh, like I don't remember what happened when Um, I remember us not correcting total eclipse and me being mystified at that choice Sure. Yeah I remember thinking helan was going to be ridiculous. I was glad to be proven right there Um I don't remember what else to think about this army. LRL is is Such a interesting weird army. It feels like it's doing so much work To be completely Average at this point Like and you know sentinels classically a problem. They did. Oh, yeah, why didn't they fix sentinels completely either like whatever whatever I just This army so weird it jumps through so many hoops and generates so much npe To just be Decent I feel like it should just be elves are good and here's their pretty good stats and the kind the neat things they do Like right. I feel like there's too much other crap around this army I think this could be still simplified way more Hmm, that's interesting. I think that halo had an interesting take Uh, like it was it was a general comment, but on twitter. He was like, oh, you know The theoretical player was oh, man, this army is so npe to play against, you know, it killed a bunch of my stuff turned one So anyway, I one turned four, but you know That's what it feels like playing against LRL LRL is one of the like the other two are the other of the two armies that typically I have trouble with because Uh, because of teclas's serene white light. That's the other thing I would have liked to have seen But at the same time they need all of these awful things in order to stay alive Which is that the part that I I don't like about them that absolutely unnecessary nerfs to the cows that took We were we were getting away from teclas's sentinels like I was we were all seeing it at least over rime at Yeah, I'm moving towards stone. They're moving towards stone stuff. They they nerf that for no reason And then everyone just went back to daddy teclas and that's a good point Yeah, and now we're just we're stuck with that and it's not like Yeah, I don't know why they made those changes It's such a disappointment because I was excited when this book came out to see people getting excited about the cows and now You know the only people that play cows are my heroes, but you know, they have trouble in games Yeah, do you feel like the I mean do you agree with vince that again from like a starting standpoint the book feels off to you And that there's too much because it's too complex I mean we always we have our friend benjamin savva because of events And I always think back to this tweet that ben benjamin sent out a couple years ago and it showed his Tracking of all of the things that he was going to do He does with his army and it's just this always unbelievable But there's like 12 spells the exact yeah Cast then my other he were faced up and then like And like he was in heaven He's in heaven with that but you're talking to somebody who has a spreadsheet that plays the inch for him Okay, so you so you don't necessarily mind that yeah, it's not that like I think it's I don't know. It's it's blue. It's blue deck magic. Ha ha right first one to get the magic reference in right right And that doesn't doesn't always feel good to play against and you know I just if you you have to just play against it enough so that you're used to it And once you're used to it, you know how to play against it and you know what to expect and you can You can set your your stuff. So what do I do? Like what does that mean for the book? I I don't know. Maybe there's just a book that isn't always the most fun to play against It's not like it's like fixed sentinels Make makes it knows not do mortal wounds on the shooting. I don't know. That's my Like no one likes that. I mean, I'll give you a simple answer I think this book needs to be written rewritten from the ground up Yeah, I really do like it's an elite army. Just make them an elite army just their elves They're really good. Why are they so good because they're good because they're like Tecly and super skilled high elves. They have had, you know, hundreds to thousands of years to master their their individual Skills, right? And just that's it. It's not hard. Just put in the appropriate things in the stats to make it to justify that Yeah, I played yeah Yeah I played a lot of high elves during warmer fantasy days and I don't remember the high elves having this level Yeah, of complexity of layers. I mean, you know, it like they were the combined arms army They could do a lot of different things, but it just like yeah, it was a more They just relied on being good because they were just good. He's had a good. Yeah. So I can definitely feel that. Yeah We're gonna say with the the oh I was just gonna comment. Yeah, not the wind chargers, but the spirits of the wind When this came out, I was relieved that they got rid of the incredible MP those models I just wish that they had just rewritten them kind of to Vince's point like a lot of the problems with the book Can't be fixed with one change. Right. It has to be a reimagining of How the army works. Mm-hmm. Yeah Yeah Yeah, the they reduce a lot of the fair amount of bs with the book. Yeah kept some There's still some like the cavalry are a huge miss still the dawn writers I really mean it. I would throw basically this book in the in the trash and start from the ground up I really would like I would strip it to the studs Yeah Yeah, sorry chad Like like I mean like look you could you could like you can get the feel Right. Yeah, you know like what stays I don't know lightning reflexes. That's a good idea. Okay, and then and then That's where I'm gonna stop And from that like it's okay. How do we make wardens a good melee unit? You know, what does that look like? What does it mean to be a good melee unit in the elves? Well, they're very fast, right? So like they have built in neg one to be hit They, you know have a word save because of their speed that's on a six up or something like They naturally are You know Like give them a straight to wound thing because they have a precise strike like just make them good at the various Things that happen, right? That's Yeah Like there's 20 different 50 different rules You could give each unit to capture that that is way less complicated than the nonsense and spell casting and hoop jumping We have to go through with this army right now. Yeah, right, right. Uh, yeah chat chat grab He was on my team. I call around clink harsh. He was playing the pilon and symetrica Combination and that to me felt more like what you're talking about vents because it is it is a little more Root standard kind of kind of you know, it's like they they can they they're more straightforward in what they're doing, right? Like it's it's it's simpler. Uh, but and it feels pretty good. I think but yeah Yep Okay ogre mottribes Uh, clearly the best book ever written since every other book borrows from it. Uh All right, so I remember thinking when this book came out Yeah Pretty good Yeah, they did all right. Yep Yeah There's really nothing else like You know the the the foot guys are are can be taken hooray. Yeah, exactly, right? Like this is this is the most five out of ten book they've ever printed like flavor wise was fine Uh, I have no problem with I think thematically it like flavor wise. It's it's pretty good I still wish they'd use hungry and and and eating more Uh as a sort of mechanic to trip things off of in the game, but you know, it's good They want to be charging. They like charging. They're good at charging. They do good things when they charge You want to be charging? Like the uh, the iron blasters were probably overcooked. They got addressed pretty quickly the novel ours were, you know A problem only in combination with overcooked uh iron blasters in my opinion And you know that that got addressed it would have been nice if the if the the foot the foot cannon guys um Got some sort of adjustment to make up for the fact that The iron blaster went all the way down Yeah to make them That Thomas that was like a early warning shot the herald of things to come with with future battle tomes the the broken iron blasters just It was the first would you say it was the first shot across indeed of the of this horrific reality that was headed our way Yeah, I mean exactly we had the cannon problem but for then and certainly they're still internal balance issues to this book Like I don't want to pretend it's all sunshine and roses. Like I said, it is the hot five out of ten book Man-eaters horribly underwhelming the new shooter guy. They introduced. He's a monster slayer. It's like, okay guys wheeling back He does basically nothing. So sure best monster slayer basically nothing. Let's meet in the middle and say he does basically nothing um You know, so like there's there's a lot of room to grow here, but I enjoy things like the meme tyrant list It's fun that you can do that kind of thing Uh, you know, I I I think Some of the bcr stuff came out pretty well. They still need some more work on thundertusks Uh, we're just we're just they're still in prison from aos You know one oh five or whatever When when they were just mortal wound death machines running around with packs of goblins or whatever mooclan. Yeah Yeah, I think I could take anything for 4.0. It would be to either make everwinter good Or put everwinter to bed forever. Sure. I I'd prefer to make it good. Let's like this This clearly we can keep this as one book. It works fine as one book But let's bring up the everwinter side of the house for like the stonehorns fine They're they're good. I like the cross-ordon them even the bstr is on stonehorn or fine Um for what they are but like my goodness are the thundertusks underwhelming Yeah, thundertus. They just need to be competitive some in some way because there's just the trade off is too big And then the allegiance ability for I just want everwinter to make like every time I get rolled against me. It does nothing and I feel bad for the guy Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's it's such a bad rule Uh, and then like make the hunters actually worth taking that whole section that we're so underwhelming Yeti's just make Well, I don't want good yeti rules until they have a good yeti model Either retire the yetis or make new models. That's your choice. Okay. We're we're at a point with these guys How we don't have a new butcher yet is is like shocking to me that they dare sell that model Those models are bad. I'm sorry to whomever the original sculptor was in Probably 1998 when that model was made but like boy, is it bad. It's really bad like super bad Uh, so, you know, but like the the normal guy's still it up. I still think gluttons are a perfectly good model Larry the ogre's been a uh, you know a basically a a, uh mascot of this channel for for 10 years and I still like paying the guy so The the the bones are strong here Yeah We we got it. We got to finish building out the house All right Wounds is not enough It's just another it's just another battle term the the foot guys wounds are not enough of the defense Right. Yep Okay I just wanted to a quick shout out Natalie I went in wanting to play all venari and ended up selling it due to how much it wasn't fun to play Natalie, I love if you are still in the comments if you could expand on that because that was my exact experience I wanted to get into lumineath. I know we're we skipped that we're going past them But it was really not fun to play and I was kind of shocked by that No exactly and it should be you're playing elite cool killer elves. It should just be like highly skilled elves Why is that not just good? That like venari were the expression of the high elves of my childhood Right and the childhood of so many of us, right? But I played that army and it was so boring how it played And I mean there's a lot more to say on yeah So there's a lot more to say on like at least why I felt that but I was curious Yeah, Natalie or anybody else if you've had that experience or or if you liked how it played But I I couldn't stand it sure All right, let's keep moving s2d Uh, oh baby I think s2d May be a high watermark of Aos 3 design. I'm gonna go ahead and say that. I think that's my That's my that's my honest feeling uh This book had some challenges when it first came out, but I remember thinking boy This is incredible. I want to play the heck out of this Hmm. Yeah, I was gonna say the same like it's for me It's the best battle tone that they've released because it plays Honest war hammer, but the list building is interesting. There's not very many misses on units Uh, it has in my like for me personally I know you guys have been talking you talked about the three best units the best unit in the game in my heart Is untamed beasts and it's in this book Like I can put it I can put it in everything it saves me from so much alpha it's Uh, just just two units of that. It's great. Um, yeah the the chaos chosen sculpt is outrageously good It's criminally awesome Uh Like sandstorm plays you you you look at the book. You don't even have to open it and sandstorms just blast it in your heart It's it's fantastic. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I agree Hey, I I don't just roll instead. I'm an std guy though through and through and we are currently over paying for our stats Like I think that's true, but I wouldn't make him any cheaper. I really wouldn't I think that's a problem of Other things need to get more expensive in some of these other armies. They're getting too much too cheap Like that's the problem. It's the newer crop that's that's making that seem worse by comparison Uh, because making these guys cheaper is not the right answer. That's going to send us down a bad break Like they're an elite army. They play well I feel like I get the right amount of stuff in an army Other things if they're going to be that good if you're going to be restoring whole units If you if you effectively buy 20 models and get 30 then you're going to pay for 30 Yeah, right like that needs to be the world we live in I agree guys this this to me is the before and after that we the before and it was the culmination as you said Of the 18 months that we got I think of generally good quality battle time design internal balance and and with I mean we had we had it We always have issues in this game and the environment had to get adjusted It's such a snake boys are you know still dumb Yeah Fine But but then and the after and the after came pretty you know with gets and then etc etc Not not all of the battle tomes all eight right like bees of chaos are manageable But anyway this and it just creates a really clear Um juxtaposition with with these book gets and this book. I think especially but yeah It's it's amazing to list builds. You can write amazing highlander list and and be competitive I actually like I think a lot of those sub factions are compelling. I really like Legion of the first prince I don't see it a whole lot, but I think it's pretty interesting actually to play and yeah Just an amazing book like you mentioned Thomas like there definitely are I mean, there's so many worst ones in this book There's going to be misses. Yeah, obviously, but especially with the the cultists fell a little under some of the cultists felt under cooked Yeah, yeah We're overcooked. I've got some that's at work. Sure. He's splinter fang Splinter fang, right? It is as awful as you think the only reason I don't think you see it Is because it's so hard to get 70 splinter splinter fang. Yeah And you know that's that's not great, but you know What what a small blemish on such a otherwise amazing You know set of rules in my opinion Yeah, I mean to me it's just uh, it's a Like I look at this and I think this is how books should be designed I think there is some challenges with some of the heroes being kind of underwhelming but there's plenty of good ones in there Um, I think there are like I think the demon prince really stands out Still I talked about it earlier as just being like a horrible horrible miss for what should be a powerful unit In the army like that should be one of your power heroes, but it's not it's just not at all not even close Um, the eye of the gods table was an incredibly good Incredibly good flavorable thing. Love it. Love the ability that to to play on that table in lots of ways I think that's really great. Um, the heroic actions that they had access to were good Sort of the first instant instantiation of that and I thought those were actually well designed in this case and flavorful and Appropriate to what's going on made sense. This is a hero focused army Like, you know s2d has always had a lot of focus on its heroes and going back to the days of like you know Fourth edition hero ham fourth fifth edition hero hammer right like there was s2d heroes were a nightmare And so I'm okay with some of that stuff There are too many hero misses like I mean it it's kind of it has a little bit of that se hero Syndrome going on where I would have I mean there's so many heroes that you're gonna have some misses But yeah, I would have liked to have seen less misses there. I mean we've got some good ones I obviously but yeah, there's just too many that you skip over immediately Yep Honestly, my answer for the next version of this book is just Yes, this but fix the few bad units that are in there Like some internal balance touch up and you're Like you're in a great place this book is designed incredibly well You have good options list buildings fun the flavorful things you add of the different units and what god they pledged to with their mark is like You know great Subfactions can use some touch up. Of course. That's always yeah Yeah But good spoilers Yeah, if I could pick anything for them to do in 4.0 with slaves to darkness is make them read this book before they write the next Uh, uh every battle tome. They have to reread slaves to darkness. Yeah, man 100% like this should be the baseline Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's just yeah Like this is the platonic form that we saw in 3.0. This is it. This is the we've reached the mountaintop boys That's it. Even the even the including on the point values like yeah for the most part of the point values I thought were pretty good with this book like Maybe quibble some you can quibble some things right like splinter fang and quibble with Yeah, it's like but it's like that 10 plus 10 minus 10 plus 20 minus 20 It's in that range for I think a lot of things that you can quibble with but Yeah Yeah, absolutely. I agree All right, beast of chaos Uh, where'd you fall in these guys Tyler? What how about beast? Yeah, so I haven't played these a whole lot I do find them fascinating as a design. Obviously. I mean number one with the whole You can all deploy this army like that's I I do like Obviously, this book was a bit of a nightmare with where it ended up after the warrior dwarf blah blah blah they were dominating the meta Uh incredibly difficult to play against incredibly strong They really changed them dramatically Uh, I I remember our show with matt matt was matt new yin a great beast cast player on the west coast Matt generally is a big fan. I love a lot of what he had to say about him I I like the identity that they gave this book in With this latest battle tone I think there are Some a number of misses like thanks for the little sloppy Uh, some of the war scrolls Just didn't quite have the quality control that the baseline that we had gotten to With slaves, right? Yeah, and so But as like a core identity the way it plays I think it's very interesting It's hard. There's a high, uh My brain is going to mush high skill floor Yes, and a pretty high ceiling with this battle tone I think like I think it's quite difficult to play this army really well And we've been seeing a lot of bull bull goers like guys We see a lot of bull goers, but bull goers fall over to most things in this game Sure like it's all because of the power like the well bull goers are like with their base stats in the combo And then what the doom bull can do, right? It's so right, right Because the doom bull is just like super charging them in a really wild way Um, because he's just it's it's like such this this unbelievable ability to be able to act off Turn and no matter what else is happening and just like no, no, we're charging go go Yeah, it's crazy when you're breaking a rule that big like It's breaking like seven rules at once to that command ability or whatever Absolutely, uh, there were two, uh third rails that they That they touched in a big way, obviously the cockatrice And then the fact that you can spam a way to make an enemy army, uh, basically have one attack characteristic Yeah function have units function when they're off the board. Yes I would call that the third rail Yeah, I have a meaningful impact when they're off the board Like we've played with a little bit of that here and there In some various and sundry ways, but like here things are like they're they're making shooting attacks When they're not on the board or they're they're moving you when they're not on the board, right that kind of stuff I don't I don't know. Yeah for me Yeah, I can see your point dude, like yeah But I don't know if that's Necess I think there are ways of doing that that it doesn't feel out of bounds But I mean that we we are seeing some people not not a lot leaning into the ungrader spam I think it's more of a meme than a reality. I don't know somebody's running in a world So we'll see how it does it worlds this week this week I like that the design move into like allowing hero heroic actions like as long as this guy's off the board He's still taking damage, but you can like do stuff Uh personally like I think that's pretty interesting. Um, there's I feel like there is you know limited design space with combat and finding new and interesting ways to allow my units to do stuff I like that. Um, I like that a lot more than you know cockatrice's or You know minus one attack spam Right. I think it's a hard book to play Uh, I think they really missed on the dragon ogre shagoth. Uh, at least the points cost. Um, like wild Uh, it's maybe in dragon ogres in general. Yeah, they nerfed the best agor At some point early on which was a disappointment because everyone was like, oh well, you know It's going to be bull gores, but maybe you can make best agor work. They nerf best agor and like, okay Well, I guess it's all dragon or it's not dragon ogres. Uh, bull gores now, which is You know, I love variety and that really cut down on variety Yeah, my big argument with this is I'd love to see this army move to something that isn't spammy Um, like more fully, um like have incentive to play across Lots of the different things whatever that means. I mean, I think thematically this is the closest We ever got to feeling right. I think they hit a lot of right notes Gore feel pretty good for the first time in a long time like gore and so like that. Like I I feel like we were getting closer Right on a lot of this stuff Um, to me again, this is one of those books that doesn't need a revolution. It just needs an evolution Yeah, uh, and and that is some more internal balance amongst the units make some cuts If you're not going to do a thing like either make a new shagoth or or get rid of the thing Like I don't care. By the way, the answer is please make a new shagoth It's a really cool model really cool idea. But like, you know, just make decisions, right? Like let's let's get this stuff in here and and and get them all functioning and on some kind of internal balance or not And by the way, the cockatrice is like a crime against humanity. I don't care how good it is I don't care. I don't care. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it's irrelevant It is completely irrelevant how winning this army is or how many cockatrice to show up One one person getting hit by that cockatrice ability in one game is too many. It's just too many, right Okay, like it's a stupid ability that does a stupid thing We literally put a whole baked-in rule into the base game It says this rule cannot be violated And it's you can never get more than egg one to hit off whatever your core number is, right? Like we literally put that in the rule like this is invalid Uh, you know additional tomes can't change this And then we printed a stupid relatively cheap monster that's like oh never mind sixes Also the sculpt is ugly. I'm gonna say it. Yeah, sure. Sure. It's just like salt in the wind So, you know, that's that's it. Um, but on the whole I think this is just one of those books is just tighten Just tighten some screws for the most part get rid of the dumb those that dumb rule and Probably get rid of that doom bull rule. That's probably too good. But we can you know, like It's way better than us. Yeah. Have some cross functional incentive That would be my biggest request make me want to run all the different types of beasts Okay. Yeah, absolutely Uh gloom spite gets Uh So I mean what occurred to me was wow, this is a pushed army And uh, I'm like on one hand very happy for them because they've suffered for so long Uh, and I thought to myself boy that squig heard and bounders and stuff like that seem Really really good and strong Probably too strong. Maybe I don't know. I guess time will tell well time has told They were and are Like now the squigs we heard is just awful to play against awful. Uh, it's just not And it plays honest warhammer and that it gets up into your face And then battle shocks like it's just so honest and then all of a sudden for no reason Two at mortal women's nine inches away, which is like goodbye heroes Uh, by the way in that fight, let me return to this. I mentioned I watched this fight happen between the big Squig heard in the big zombie unit, okay? Yep, which is just like the two of the best units in the game just clubbing each other Both do mortal wound kickbacks when they die to some degree like in somewhere another right once through battle shock And once through just death models, but they're both doing it, right? And they both regen there like half their unit back after they actually die die, right? So What ends up what what was the actual outcome of that fight? Well, the zombies won But every hero that was within nine inches of the zombies was dead That's what happened because the squigs just murdered all the support heroes that were nearby And then did some wounds into the zombies and then died and came back at half strength That was it And the zombies were basically still at full by the time they were done because they you're two upping their way back into into zombies It's great. I was like, what's fantastic. What a hilarious Nonsense fight. Yeah, we're just like escaping. We're just on the other side of the table Just like that is we're not getting involved in that. But anyways, yeah I mean this book is pushed it needs major major points adjustments One of the first things I think one of the first times it's happened Correct me if I'm wrong, but the boingar bounders when do they charge? You just need one model to be nearby To push the entire unit's worth of wounds right into whatever their touch and I think this is the first time we see that and When it shows up later, uh It's it's so busted compared to things like hex ray the switch Sure That it doesn't diminish as the unit goes down But do you really need the entire like I got one model within an inch everybody else is like, you know 1,000 miles away They are they're sending those mortal wounds in that charge just like the zombie that died a mile like miles away Same thing. It's like they just forgot that range matters And it's and it's off Yeah, it's what were they thinking I can't I can't tell Yeah, so we've been hitting on a lot of them some of the negatives I there's a lot that I loved about this book as well. Sure. I mean You guys I think we're right. There's a lot to love about this book A lot of fascinating design a lot of variety and a lot of viable variety and the war scrolls functionality Uh, they The I think the number of the sub factions are interesting Again, maybe a little bit too much on incentivizing spam or incentivizing particular direction But I kind of get it because it's a multi Um, like there's a number of sub factions with this army multi types, right? You got trucks. You got spiders, etc So I kind of get that um I It seems like there's more Potential for the combined arms than ever like kings gets is really nice with the combined arms list So it it wasn't as good. I think is it could have been I think there could have been more Cross-purpose synergies incentives to run the mix that would that would have been interesting But yeah a ton to love about this book Um points were ridiculous in a lot of cases The yeah, just this anyway, this was the start of the heralds of of the madness that that we've been in for a while They fixed the moon. That was great. Oh my god. Thank god. What great design And and it's easy to get the moon everywhere on the board Uh, what like thank god like just fantastic because like we're saying we could we like to focus So good, right. Yeah, we focus on the negative, but there's so much Just great stuff that they fixed in this book. No, I agree. I like scragg rot I like Uh, a lot of the just how the basic goblin heroes function Uh, you know, I really love the moon and what it's doing. I think that that came out so great Like they really they simplified the table and made it easier to control and actually get a bonus from Perfect, yeah, right. Yeah, I think trolls is a pretty fair army Like yeah, the main troll boss is a tough guy and hard to kill But I think it's a pretty fair army like if you're running there, they're if anything there are points issue It's specifically the rockets. I would argue. I understand. Yeah, but that's yeah, I'm fair with that But that's like minimal like I would see I could see a small adjustment. We're in a good place Spiders are obviously super weak still like that's still a nothing burger of an army The the problem is the the the squigs are super pushed and The hordes of goblins are just a complete nightmare to play against even even with the rally fix It's like the trip even with the rally fix the trip rally is still Super strong and it's just a nightmare of just like penalties and bodies and yeah We haven't made the mention obviously the nine inch And the my answer just scoring. Yeah, that seems like a poor idea to me stuff Yeah, like as as a yeah choosing to lean into that design or opening that design space seems like a bad idea Yep, agreed. I I just I hate it and I want it unwritten My answer for the 4.0 version of this book is like, no, no, you got it Like maybe maybe do something with spiders or just fire them off the roof as per usual Like with these things that just continually Like I'm not trying to be mean I'm just trying to say like look if something for multiple books has sucked and just keeps being this weird atrophied appendix Hanging on the edge of the book Then just either get rid of it or write real rules for it. That's the choice Yeah, right Either bring it into balance because it it's worth being there or fire it off the roof because it doesn't make a choice Putting it in there as a trap choice is terrible That's the worst of all possible worlds Okay But like this but not this pushed in the in those areas. That's all that's all I want to see like sure You know, you had most of the right ideas here. Yeah Uh, you know, it just needs to be like another another, uh Uh, just put it back in the oven for a little bit longer, right? Five more minutes. Just five. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah Okay Uh Corradron overlords, uh, well, obviously one of the strongest books in the meta right now Uh, as was, you know, all these books are now going to be the strongest books in the meta Because for the first time ever power creep is is a real thing at least in health These most recent books are performing by win, right? Yeah Oh, man. Oh, that just made the okay. All right. I'm gonna I want to take the win there and we'll move on There you go. I'll take the win. Thank you. I appreciate it. I still don't think power creep actually exists But boy, are they doing their best to prove me wrong Power creep they're like as it implies like a systematic progression, this is just like bad design in bad development in practice You're narrow. You're narrow. I'm being pedantic KO go Tyler. What do you think? Okay. All right Still way too much complexity too much Fiddling fiddling us. I mean like you look at the irate that they came out with having to clarify I mean once again, we're having to clarify all these weird issues with how this army functions with the boats It just still feels too complicated and and how it functions with the number of the interactions the The points values on the heroes this so gets it continue the trim the gets where okay I was I've been talking forever about this new baseline. I've been filling with point values I talked with Thomas you at coloracle and carnage about this when I look at The point values of a number of these KO heroes like the arc knight admiral and I compare that to like the early battle terms You know idk mergle storm cast etc I see a difference between these and and the value being provided relative to the points So that that really stood out The I love obviously differentiating the the role of the boats was fantastic Like I love the the melee boats A plus very cool. I mean because the thunders were one of the most, uh worse ridiculously priced worse priced worse scrolls in the game Over the last number of months or this for for the entirety of 3.0 at 135 for five That's ruined everything because it's just for the most part competitively It's thunder spam and you're not seeing much melee. Some people are trying to make it work See if you can do it But yeah, it's just kind of thunders for days. I think there's it's a very I don't know It's another army that to me it feels like it's suffering from that everything everywhere all at once It's doing too much to in my mind. It has too many options that it can plug into a list Right, it's like and again. Look at the thunders. How many layers can these stupid things stack in what they can do? It's four plus rally. They do mortal wounds in melee I I don't know how they do it. I just know they do mortal wounds in melee Like on top of everything else that they do It's so it's just it's way too much Way too much stuffing with this book in my mind with with some of these things Thomas My I've only played against them one time It was our bat rep where they just like the the book information had just come out and we were playing a game um Like we I don't think we had a a good grasp on the book and so I watched that bat rep. Yeah, that was early on You guys were still yeah, you I scaven won and I don't think that that was warranted Uh, based on what I've heard from everybody I know that like we've got a local ko player who has been just curb stomping people right with Like 15 thunders and two by two by six of the engine rigors. Yeah engine rigors and that's that's the more fair version That's the fair version of that's the more fair version of the list. Yeah Like the real everywhere worlds right now. It's 35 thunders 35 somebody's being cute and running a melee version Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's maybe just being incredibly information dense But like I can't help but feel like oh, man I I bet I could write some all-combers lists that could handle that but You know, not everybody has 19 armies that can just like I'll just scoop out, you know Anything that can respond Said I will probably play against it and be taught a lesson about hubris but you know, it's every everybody says it looks bad and I kind of believe them because ultimately ko has always seemed to have problems with this exact thing But the thing is I don't necessarily think like I I do feel like the thunderer's issue in particular is screwing things up in a big way with that battle tone in a sense like I think there's a lot of good there but again too much stuffing and and then that just Making I mean eventually we've always talked about how you have to price shooting at a certain level higher Like it has to be a higher baseline and they just threw that out the window with that unit And so it's it's really messing things up So I'm not sure like maybe the battle tone is actually pretty good from an internal balance standpoint It could be pretty good And like where you can you're actually incentivized to run the kind of like what you're talking about right like 10 10 thunders 15 thunders some some engine rigors with the frigates, etc And you get some real variety, but I don't know Yeah No, no, no, no you So here's my thing pivoting to like the next version of this tome in my mind here's the answer We've got to make a choice and make a choice here people. Okay Here's option. We have which which path shall we walk Path one is we we let this 40k army continue existing in aos all right In which case we're going to have to price it accordingly and like things are going to need to be expensive I love the differentiation of the boats keep that keep the melee boat and stuff. Yeah, it's fun, you know These boats also these boats are very durable now like very durable Yeah, just the three plus save and more wounds and the healing and the the timing of the healing you basically have I don't know if you've always had the freedom that you have now to when you can heal it But basically you have ultimate freedom to trigger the healing which is very yeah and so like Either either it stays a 40 the 40k army in aos and i'm fine with that by the way Like it can be the shooting army and and like I'd rather see like the endermakers or somebody or the skywardens Like I don't care pick one of the two what you make whatever job justification you want be a dedicated melee unit um, I'd like to see Like the arco feel pretty okay. I think and like let's all admit we've got a a bloke We have a nergal launch issue here, right, which is the the um landlords we're too good. It's the same issue Yeah, right. We have we have the the thunder is playing too many roles doing too much stuff Right being too efficient at what they're causing that that's fair and it's it's overshadowing everything So either we we do that and we point all of these things accordingly for what they are capable of All right, or we strip this thing back to the studs and start over and be like, okay What is each of these things do and let's make it a combined arms army where it's meant to be Playing all the phases of the game in some way I I think I'd rather keep have it keep its identity as the 40k army. I don't think like fine I I've recommended big overhauls in the past, but I've come to change my mind I think it's more interesting as this weird unique oddity That's like a heavily shooting army that that's that has a decent amount of mobility But they're gonna have to pay for that It's going to be an expensive elite army and it needs to be harder to play and win with yes That's what it's going to be like But when but when you've got somebody who's got some skill and knows how to apply the the extreme power They've just been handed in the right places. They will win games Right, they'll they'll pay for that luxury right, yeah That that's what it feels like to me Okay, cool. Let's keep going. Yeah, it didn't yeah. Yeah, it didn't feel bad that far off in my in my experience against it But yeah, just yeah, yep. Yeah. Well, son All right, blah days of corny. All right, so uh Blades of corn Yeah, my thoughts when this came out were Uh, which is very recently obviously was wow that murder lust one blood type ability is pretty good Uh, it seems like maybe the best ability should stop being the one point ability I don't know why this that happens, but here we are It's like it's like somebody who designs this game should know that movement free movement out of phase free movement Is the strongest thing you can have Into combat free movement like in two combat again Like third rail braking in every way this this one blood type thing is going to ignore seven other rules again You were talking about one thing doing too much. Guess what all of your units can do too much Like like murderless does it all it's a it's a move. It's a charge. It's a stop only shell It it does it it does it all it does do it all But overall I like the design of this army lot. I feel like for the first time we actually got corn, right? It's not the ballet army. It is pretty there are pretty independent operators Blood warriors are egregiously awful to fight against as well. They should be I'm fine with that. Maybe they need to be like Just slightly more expensive. I don't know. But they're like they're they're probably a little too good for where they are Yeah, it feels a little too cheap relative again relative to the prior baseline. Yeah. Yeah, but again Like I'm not talking about huge moves here, right? This is yeah, yeah, sure Like functionally what they're doing feels exactly right well designed like double murder roles Tough to lift. Yep here for all of that. Fantastic. Yeah, like a lot of the demons felt better The small crushers are really interesting on the two up like they feel like they'd be overcooked But they're not because it's it's actually quite easy to lift them with mortal wounds they're not a lot of wounds for what you pay for them and uh, some armies they're a real nightmare for but some armies they're not at all like You know, I hate to keep using this as the example, but you know Charge those three things into like a pack of 40 zombies and see who walks away Spoiler, it's not the three It's not the three mighty skull crushers. I will tell you that much Yeah, um, like the blood tithe it remains an interesting table. They're mechanic is solid There's there's a lot of dead heroes All right. Yeah, they really missed the little foot heroes There's a lot of things that they could have done with the you know them going out and I don't know Just being useful just being a little combat dude Like I think you talked about it at at nauseam and in the review go back if you want to see all those but Like yeah, it was it was just a huge mess huge mess I'll I'll say my initial impression was that the bloodthirsters were all misses and that they're all super bad Uh, and that you were never going to see them on the table again Like competitively like you used to and then you know fast forward to ccc And I go 50 with three bloodthirsters Scar brand Not the like the wrath of corn that people were down on I think that being able to attack with three bloodthirsters in one combat That's a game winner for sure. Uh, if you time it all right There's just a lot of tech in there Right, so it's remained a techie army and I really like it They just need to reel back. They need to reevaluate the blood tithe table Uh, just from the ground up maybe because because it's not obviously it's not just about murderless Yeah, there's a lot of misses on that table a lot of expensive stuff is Sometimes the worst so yeah, yeah, it just it just does not make sense like that table does not make sense It's written as though Like it's written with inverse value Like how do you think these are the good things and these are the bad things? This is the strongest thing you can do. This is the weakest thing you can do like I don't get it. I hate here's the solution to summoning make the uh The ability so strong you would never spend money on extra units. Yeah, of course That's the hashtag blitzekorn right, right Yeah, so yeah, I mean I go ahead. Go ahead. Tyler. No, I'm a This despite uh, my my pattern of once Konstantinus comes on. I'm a sour post apparently I love this book like I really did I really thought there was a lot of amazing design in this book I'll just a home run for the most part There's just a couple of concerns that I had and we've covered them for the most part Yeah, yeah, there's a few things that feel overcosted Some of the heroes and the murder lust is is a key thing But yeah, I think we need to for some of the key units and you know who you are the points need to come up some We may have blood warriors but stuff like that. I honestly like even blood readers could come up a little It's just it's too cheap of a delivery method for murder lust. I'm sorry Uh for murder role. Sorry Yes, both. Um All of the above, uh And and I you know, but but for the most part you nailed it here. This is pretty close, right? We just need to take that that s2d sylvaneth points mindset apply it to a book like this So there's real choices being made you're paying real costs for the tech like understand this thing has a Incredible outs it can play to apply that much more conservative points mindset But keep this book like yep, you nailed it with the flavor Revaluate the blood type table, but for the most part you did it. You got it. We did it We got the good blades of cornbook. So yeah Yeah Right, that's perfect. It it felt the the points felt Not on that level of sylvanethan slaves of darkness, right? They were too many of them are too cheap You get too much. I don't feel like I'm making enough sacrifices when I write corn list Exactly. Yeah, the the worst part about the blades of cornbook was the books to the left and the right You know, they they were so much better that people were looking at boc and like oh man, they really dropped the ball on it at least The conversations I was having it's really like oh no no compare it to the rest of the like everything else Right, right, right. It's really really it's really good. Yep All right heat nights of slanesh Uh Yeah, I mean I don't want to spend a lot of time on this. I've spent a lot of time on this on almost every show that we've done talking about these guys Um, hey, let me do it for you. It's really sad. It was a terribly. I know again. It's a running joke You you complain about slanesh a lot, but it was it's been a series of badly designed books This was another badly designed book. Yes This book has essentially one beat to it and it it's all the incentives are towards shooting And it's I don't understand it like how how we got this book again after the last two books that we got It reminds me of idk actually where um, it just It it it runs out of steam if things don't go perfectly Like if you lift all the things that generate depravity then All right gg. Thank you. Like they rely on that they rely on that one mechanic Like idk relies on fight like clapping you on two or three If you stop that one thing then you've stopped their entire game plan. Yep. Yeah, and Uh, I said the mechanic for the d3 mortal wounds was bad. I said it originally on the first show I stand behind it. It's a terrible awful mechanic. I played Against my buddy's spg with his army and he was like, hey, I watched the show I know what I'm supposed to do now and he said no to every dice I offered him Okay, except for one where it would have killed the hero And so he let me wear that one time right because he wanted to keep the hero alive Because the hero had one wound left and he wasn't gonna die otherwise So he let me he took the die and otherwise he literally took no depravity dice for me I offered him six a battle round. I would got no depravity out of it He didn't care about the mortal wounds life moved on because he can heal and regenerate and do all those things And I was starved for depravity. I barely got into the first like I got Barely into the first one I had to reach forever to try to get to the second 24 plus to do the sixes and by that point my army was shredded right Yep And so like Yeah, it's just like i'm doing nothing. He's doing everything go ahead Yeah, like idk. They're both being propped up by a 18 inch two attacks threes and threes thing one one With triple all out attack triple unleash hell, etc. Yeah, like yeah with it. It's the same It is the it just feels the exact same to me. Yep. Yeah. Hey don't get me wrong. I love the pretenders thing I'm not gonna lie. I run it all the time Uh, I mean I like I'm gonna run it next week Yeah, like it's super fun. I mean I'm back on the chain gang over here because I love Being a pretenders player and tripping up all my my commands. It feels great I love infinite command points and and and tripping out command abilities. It's super fun Until your general just gets lifted and then you're like the army dies, you know, like it's it's such a all or nothing swing swinging mechanic and Uh, but everything else in the book feels terribly bad And and I just want to run melee slanesh which every Unit on the cover of this stupid book is a melee unit And yet it's a shooting army slanesh should not be a shooting army It's it kills me. We can't get this right. It was the summoning army when it should have been the summoning army And now it's shooting army. What is going on here? Why can't we get this right? It's the speed kills high rend army It should rely on shredding through armor like it doesn't exist Being faster than fast like it is on you like a lightning strike And then when you touch it, it dies and you win by efficient and proper trading That's it. This is not a hard army to design Why do we keep doing this? Okay, I do not understand Like where some of the give me a hot take on pain bringers. I'm trying to establish a A sense of where you're at pain bringers. How how well do they do? Fine. They're fine. Okay, they're bad cast warriors What about so do you so you think most of the war scrolls are off? Yeah Yeah, okay If they weren't you people would play them and not just run shooting Yeah Yeah, I mean I like I would I would like to think that points going up on shooting and coming out of melee is gonna Hopefully add a little more balance But I mean the incentives are so strong towards shooting with the pretenders all the cp in the world and triple triple up On on that that I don't know. You know if that's going to be a sufficient fix I mean like Things that are like relatively interesting Seekers are relatively interesting for the first time in the history of any of these books That's a good success because they're actually a fun unit to just like charge into Decently the the the demon mounted Cavalry channels. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. No, not the not the mortals the demon ones. Oh, oh, all right Okay, the reason I say yeah, yeah because they're just they're a great turn one Because they can run 2d6 and run in charge So they're actually just like a really easy way to shoot this unit you that's relatively cheap You don't care off into something Relatively weak where you know where you can just like pop an odd attack on them Call your euphoric killers turn one and and get an easy melee Reap out of them, right? Like that's That's an easy way to to use them again If you don't want to run the shooting route the shooting routes just like 20 times better But if you're not doing that Then then that's a good easy way to just like they can cross so much distance base 14 inch move plus a 2d6 run Plus a charge like they'll generally get into where they want to be And they're like Thomas. I Like Thomas. I thought you were thinking of the slick blade seekers because we of course we actually have been That'd be my other point Yeah, slick blades are good slick blade seekers are good They're they're some of the only ren too in the army outside of the two big dumb claws on the back of that lady Okay, so that makes that inherently useful Um, you know, they got decent again, they're wounds and that's it because they're on a five up save So, you know how much work can wounds do but I like slick blades. I think they're a good unit Yeah, I'm gonna I'm running on Friday. We'll see how they do in the hands of a Sladesh Nubi I like see regular seekers Um I I will I will doggedly make the keeper of secrets work. I will keep taking her. I do not care. She is bad. I do not care Oh and uh Celeste is really strong But you have to play You have to play old style corn to make it work because you're constantly trying to balance your mortals and your demons in the bubble Now you can do it because it's wholly within So the key is you just keep two units on the edge of the bubble and then based on how they pile in You can like if something dies, you can sweep one extra unit in or one out You have to play this like very careful stupid game Just to get your bonuses, but you can do it and it's a good bonus never again never again to corn 2.0 Interesting now have you proposed I can remember a what you would like to see alternatively to Temptation dice or some way. I mean do you and a follow question on that is do you like the Way that the army functions right now where some however you're doing it you generate need Privity you're getting bonuses for you. You're getting harder. Like might as well hit five upward. Do you like that? As as like a foundation piece of the army. No regardless of how you're doing it No, because that that's that's like all debuffing. That's that's not leaning into The core identity in your mind. Correct. Yeah, I don't know why I suddenly get neg when to hit in a five upward I'm not sure what's the nash about that the mortals on sixes seems fine like that sure. Okay Yeah, like neat, but no, I don't I don't want to track this silly mechanic Um Like I don't I don't need any part of it We don't need any like did cast armies at some point Did there was there a memo that went around the cast armies have to have a silly mechanic they have to track It's part of the great game, right? Yeah, it's their game Um Part of part of that. I mean you kind of it reminds me a little bit of our conversation earlier about your proposal for Daughters of Cain, which is very intriguing But we were talking about glass cannon armies They have to be able to be one of the challenges with some of them right now IDK, right? We've a lot about IDK They can't survive often long enough To to do what they need to do so the tempo is not there often with IDK and daughters of cane nowadays Especially if you're trying to go melee So like how do you get that with slanash to where you have that balance of Glass but not too glass glass can but not to glass cannon. Oh, I think they should be the most glass I really do And and they shouldn't be refilled through summoning or anything like that like no no I mean other than like the keeper herself should be very hard to bring down as all greater demons should be That's not like something unique to the keeper But she's supposed to be one of the most skilled fighters, right? Like they're meant to they're meant to be on the level with Like be able to go toe to toe with bloodthirsters Right. Yeah, obviously like so they should they should all be as I said all greater demons should be 400 or 500 point real threats on the table And it's like like the way this army should want to run is to be I mean, that's exactly what Stigna has just said fragile, but super deadly Right, like armor should be almost irrelevant to this army Like right what I'm getting at is They just shred your armor off. That's it, right Right, I I'm on I'm with that but he mentioned the debuffing piece and that's what I'm getting at like they've added Sort of that they've added durability in the way of debuffing and and buffing your own unit Like five up orders buff to you debuff minus one to hit to the opponent But like there's ways that they're the problem is is that you have to get that much durability Like I've seen people struggle to get to 12 Right 12 depravity like when I no one takes the dice if you're smart you don't take the dice Right. Yeah, it's just like take the dice. It's a stupid mechanic because your opponent will just never take the dice and not care like It's not hard to beat this army. How do you how do you avoid that problem by the way? Uh Tyler like you yeah them accordingly so that they're relatively cheap They can make favorable trades and you give them the speed to hit what they want to hit Like their advantage should be the ultra high mobility Right, like they are like this should be one of the fastest armies in the game bar none, right? Right, like everybody's running and charging. Everybody's retreating and charging Like this these should just be the army wide rules they have Yeah, and just like wild speed Okay, just like base moves on things Like no unit in this army should be expected to move less than basically like 10 inches Just crazy speed Yeah, well the close thing I can think of that is old school IDK 2.0 IDK Like that that at least that's what sounds to me like you're talking about like IDK was basically that like they They hit very very hard, but they would die. Yeah, absolutely. I'm fine with that Like I'll die on the crack back. I'm willing to play the trading game Make me make intelligent choices, right, but I can always get at you. You're never safe Right, um like that's it. That's all there is Okay, that's all Okay, uh, we're almost done folks. We're almost there. We got to we got to wrap this up It's been too long on slanesh, but even after I said I wouldn't talk about it All right, OBR Uh Petrifex elite came out too strong. It's already been corrected like a lot more to see on OBR But right now it seems like that the flavor is still being in the big boy units The harvester got whacked into the ground real hard Um more tech. I'm not sure they're really primed to compete in the current world Uh, you know, I I don't know that was really sloppy sloppy around in my opinion with uh with the harvester Like yeah, I needed to get like anyway, that's the whole other conversation But like yeah, I agree. I needed to get hit a little bit But Jesus Jesus like the way that they did it Not like this sloppy Yeah I'll say that I did enjoy the uh, the me myself with dr. Manhattan Sitting on sitting sitting on mars like it's 20s 20s. It's 2017 petrifex elite has been rewritten. It's 2019 Petrifex elite has been rewritten. It's 2023 Uh, it's like I got a lot of thoughts on this book. What do you think thomas about this book? Uh, I wish that the uh, the points were a little bit better for the big guys the uh, the choppers and the But it's so late now. What were the names of the morgast the morgast? Immortus guard and necropolis. Yeah, those two guys like for some reason The one that's the best is less expensive Right, they're 204 guard 224. They both feel a little too cheap, especially the guard right now Yeah, uh, the change to the harvester without a points adjustment was a crime against humanity Uh, thank god for the changes on um, Catacross's war scroll. He is so much easier to run now. Um I think that the army is going to do really well. I played, uh I played nine Immortus guard. Um, I played against it as myself enough And I killed literally nothing and only one because I was playing on bad lines drawn And I was just teleporting to the four corners and it was the least interesting game I've ever had Um, and I feel like that's a little bit of like what we've seen like the longest battle report we've ever had on our channel was The this versus gets where he just charged return one and we just ground for a thousand years where the The the boat like the the mortar guard would not die and then the squigs just kept coming back coming back It was it was brutal and I think that a lot of people are going to feel like playing against obr is pretty brutal. Um I don't know that's what I've heard overwhelmingly so far. Yeah Yeah, I don't know it hasn't been that long enough for me to make any calls the I wish we could see more of the more guests but um With the sort of efficiency you have on the guard like good luck Because they're they're interesting and I think I think they're interesting. They are Shut off only shall like, you know, it's it's they're cool units. They look cool. Um, yeah, they're not as cool as other units though So when we had branded on vents, uh, I was in the the mindset of I just want to have a good time on this show Uh, I was kind of at the point with this game and the ecosystem where it's like where we're like Stuff is off off the chain like It's it's nuts. Let's get that way things have gotten way nuts out there I'm like I was kind of in the mindset like I don't care I just want to have a good time I don't want to be a sour post on the show and just we had we had fun And like I probably came across as like not even caring about the The how this army comes out and but I think as I said I was worried about some of the points and I thought that the army could be adjusted fairly well by points Uh, I think that's mostly still true, but there are a number of things that do feel way too cheap Uh, this book is maybe the the height of the everything everywhere all at once There is so much that you can do with this battle tone Like they have Assuming all the options and they can bring to bear many of them like in the hands of a skilled player It's horrifying what this battle tone can do in my mind. I think it leads to Um, very very bad play experiences for it's going to lead to already has and will continue for a lot of players I wouldn't I might put this up. I mean to me It's soul blight and obr right now in this game Sure as the as the two that I have the most concerns with with what they the play experiences they're eliciting Think it's there's a lot more to say about the book, but yeah, it's But I think it's it is adjustable through points, but but problematic in a number of ways sure Yeah, I think the book mostly feels right. I think again, it's the same thing Like I want to see some of the units touched that clearly have a problem Yeah, I'd love to see the two new units like give us a marchers. Give us some some ballistae and and Again take a much more conservative mindset with the points, right? So yeah I mean I want to move through these last three pretty quickly because we've just talked about them in like past weeks Soul blight. I mean, you know What can we say about soul blight except it's this Second strongest first strongest third strongest. It's like it's one of the top three books in the meta. It's very pushed It's relying on very bent units um Legion of blood is too strong You know, like there's just like we got some adjustments and I still think it's really really really strong Uh, so yeah Yep Yeah, I don't know what else to say like the Mike's I took one velocity and lesions of blood and just it was It was I was playing a different game than my opponent Yeah, I think that like the we've talked about it recently a lot Too much frankly, but the healing and and model regen and regen is just it's too high It's too high if an army's gonna do all those things I said it earlier if you're gonna buy 20 dudes, but you get a guaranteed 30 out of it Then you should pay for 30 Especially when they're they're 30 that are actually doing useful stuff like causing mortal wounds and And and you know popping back up and taking objectives in the enemy turn Like when it's that unorthodox of value like that you should be paying a premium for that not buying that as a super cheap unit Yeah, all they all they like why does the zombie just from a mile away get to die and then Catapult his mouth and bite some guy Like you know what I mean Like if it was just like pick a model within three inches and on a five up all of a sudden It's just a murder roll and that's way way less oppressive. It's still really good But you know, it's way less awful than than this no range Like whatever is going on like make it a six up at least if you're gonna give it no range Yeah, I mean people are you know like the zombies are so good They actually kind of blot out some of the other stuff. That's also quite strong. Like you mentioned the balasda, especially in lob He's so unbelievably strong Obviously neffi and her ability still she's she herself is an incredibly strong power piece Skeletons, I think a great They're amazing people who haven't played against 30 skeletons trying to get rid of 30 skeletons Yep, if you do not wipe that unit in a go like lift it to a man It's going to be back up to full speed in in shockingly no time Yeah, it is wild how fast and that's not an easy proposition for a lot of things in the game So to just lift in one activation. Yeah, or in one turn. Yeah, right Yeah, the black knights are also black knights are busted with the uh with that hero Like I ran it in our battle report and they were they had the same thing as the uh the squigs where like one man Can get nearby and then you train them all out and then they they just Shoot in kill your super like metric ton of dice into a ton of mortal wounds. Yeah Yeah, it was it was ridiculous So like there's so much good stuff in this book now. There are still some misses It's worth saying the other my other problem with this is we've got some units that are super bent and pushed sure and some that are just like completely On the other side What happened to all the monsters like the unmounted terror guys the unmounted zombie dragon like the the the Oven gory stuff almost taken as a whole is just like what is what happened here Right, let's see Kerr palak when coming through. Oh my god. Yeah, exactly. Yes all that stuff. Yeah I forget those are even in the book All I see is just the the incredible power for stuff and then I forget that You know having gorries It's been such a joke for so long that you know, it doesn't even occur to me to think like oh I wonder if the haven't gory stuff is any good. I see people try it So much power into the summonable stuff that like, okay. Well, if I'm not taking summonable, I'm losing Right, exactly. It's a bad choice. Like the summonable gives you so much unbelievable power in its synergy and its regen and its It's like that's why I ultimately came down on blood knights I just think blood knights aren't very good because it's like, yeah, they're okay They can charge and they can do some damage and then they die and like that's it Why would I do that when I can get the same value? Like why would I ever take that instead of a ton of skeletons or a ton of zombies? I don't understand Yeah, let me at least stop the group side or black knight. Yeah, why would I have to take two units of black knights? So the lesion of knights I've barely seen that play and I think it's amazing and because lesion of blood is just so good Like a lesion of night is really strong. I'm playing again. I'm playing it tomorrow against one of our great players locally We we at some point we're going we should probably do a An update show I feel like I I didn't read the battle to him right and I was painting that whole episode Tom had some weird calls. I felt like that was a rough show for us personally We had I thought we had a lot of weird Weird calls in that show the vengorian lord. I thought we got very wrong in that show. I think the vengorian lord is actually incredible Debuffing it's it's just a it's an amazing piece in my mind I played against that thing minus one rend minus one wound with an artifact 10 wounds that actually can hit really hard It's amazing and lesion of the blood getting extra attacks It's just a really great piece and what it can do and how difficult that damn thing is to remove But yeah, there's there's a lot of a lot of hits in that book that are not being emphasized Because of the obvious zombies, etc. Sure All right, let's just close out here sarah fun. My honest answer is Uh, please fix croak nato other than that too early to tell like that's it I've heard people complaining to me that they're not good enough and I don't know Where they're coming from it feels Really good particularly Again, this one sure star born feels really strong coalesce feels like I hate their neg one damage thing But there's a lot of units that just don't feel like they're good enough the individual again This is one of those tale of two cities because so many like these new the dude who's on the cover I'm severely underwhelmed by The like the agler are I'm not gonna do ghandian writers Yeah, perfect nailed it. I was right there, you know, the standalone monsters are all just like oof bad for the most part You know like we need more time to tell but Man, it just this one feels like to me. This felt like the most off kilter Book Where you had like the most tale of two cities where it was like here's this group of stuff and it's so Wildy broken that it'll just some armies will just quit at the top of one Yeah, okay And then there's this half of the book where you'll just struggle Mightily to feel like you're even giving a good game Yeah, right like what what how are these happening? Right? What's going on here? Yeah, so yeah Hopefully they put all the work into cities Uh, well, that's gonna bring us to like four hours for this show. So we have got to call it Sure All right for all of you out there who stuck with us for the whole time. You are the real heroes. Let me just say that Uh, thank you so much for if you watched until this point. Hey, don't forget to hit like Uh, subscribe do all those things click the things that make the dings Don't forget the new game from starling badger myself and uncle adam launches this friday So look for that check it out. Watch the watch this space Uh, and uh, we're really excited about the newest game It's been in this picture with me the entire time. Do you know where it is? But it's been sitting here in frame the entire time Okay, thomas. Thank you so much buddy. Absolutely pleasure having you on Thank you very much. Had a blast Absolutely for all of you out there. Thank you so much for watching. We really appreciate it as always We'll see you next wednesday