 Welcome back to the breakfast here on plus TV Africa. Our focus now is in Kaduna state It was grounded on Monday when organized labor started its five-day warning strike in this state On Tuesday the governor Nasa Arafai declared the Nigerian president or national president rather of the NLC wanted for economic sabotage Of course the NLC president Ayubaba has in turn dared the governor It's been a mixture of you know numerous events in Kaduna state. Of course late yesterday We also learned of the sacking of nurses and lecturers. We're joined this morning by a journalist Charles Ideho Who's speaking on these issues? Of course, we'll later be joined by the national president of the NLC Ayubaba, but first of all miss Ideho. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. Thank you very much It's been a very dramatic 48 hours in Kaduna state First of all with the actions of the NLC and organized labor and of course the reactions of the Kaduna state governor There's you know numerous You know thoughts on you know this issue, but let's hear from you What's your assessment of what has taken place in the last 48 hours? Well, I think it's quite regrettable and of course if you also look at it It's also avoidable But every five being who he is if you follow every five or it is as the leader of the FCT You know that there's a man that loves grandstanding. He loves a man who wants to always attract attention to himself even for even for the wrong disease so I think Having spent so much time in this in this is life and in government and he understands the working of government That's why I say it's avoidable because first he is pushing for that the issue of redundancy in the government I quite agree with that But there are extant laws that he must follow For instance, he being the governor of Kaduna state today There are laws and processes that put him there So when you also are dealing with a session of the society You must also have a recourse to processes and law before you can take decisions He must also be reminded We're no longer in the military era where you have to use a military fiat When you just wake up somebody who of course is the be all and end all of Holocaust We stand up and make a broke up to say super things remain stand alone that We are governed by laws and those laws must be respected. That's why we're not benign in public So I think as I said that I would also reiterate it That it is Unnecessary and it's also avoidable Okay, but so you know people, you know have also said that the nlc may have taken things too far Do you agree on you know as the nlc within its right to protest the sacking of workers? Well, why is nlc in existence? nlc in existence to protect its workers nlc will not look at a situation where its workers are booed and means the arrests have been put upon They will expect them to to to go see them. I am not a fan of the nlc But on this issue, I think the nlc We have to look at their their their plight. We have to look at even what they are also looking for For instance, how can you suck a workforce? You said anybody that is 50 years on a boat remain sucked Is that what the law says? The law says it said that you are tamed the age of 60 or 35 years old Whichever one conspires Then you cannot disengage the person you can say because of economic control and all that Then you say once you are above 50 you remain you are sucked And then if from if you are on grade level one to six, you will now be converted to To a commercial worker. It doesn't work anywhere in the world So that's why I said nlc Yes, I mean I don't like them, but on this matter. I think they have not donated that is wrong at all Okay, mrs. Deho, I want us to talk about the The protest yesterday and how thugs were, you know, just Went to the protest grounds and began to carry sticks to disrupt the protest Lots of people have said this are political thugs hired by the government We have no idea as to the facts, you know of that Well, um, what are your comments regarding this because this is something we also saw during the ensass protests when Thugs seem to disrupt a peaceful protest going on Well, that's also certainly that it is not it's avoidable because everybody should have known that anywhere in Nigeria where there are protests At the end of the day, who knows we always find occasion to take over which is exactly what happened yesterday So if exactly if you have told the line of negotiation to negotiate with the leadership on this nlc, this could have been avoided Because even because when a protest starts you can hardly determine Is is is end is end in both cases are you only know palatable? Let's just only what you have also seen a cut nasty, but I think we can see through the part of sanity When each other I can look at it and see his sword But I call this sword in the manner of speaking So it's okay. Let's go and talk so that we look at the issues on the table And look at how we can mitigate the already convoluted Society me and say say that because if you continue to pursue what is possible This is one world that every fight cannot win. I can tell you that Well talking about yes, I can hear you misty those still talking about the issue of thugs You said thugs will always find a way, you know into those protest grounds What do you think they come there just because they want to come there or you know If this is something that was sponsored because my colleague shared a video earlier that he watched About you know, one of the thugs confronting someone else for money. He was promised to go and cause chaos Well, uh, another thing we also look at is this first Every fight being to go knock on the stick it may not be loved by everyone in that state There are also we are journalists Of course, we know we hear a lot of things that why is our ground and all that you almost also know that he has Very powerful interests in Kaduna Who may want to do him in In whatever guys they may just be looking for an opportunity like this for him to play into their hands Such people could also use thugs even the government itself can also be You can't also wave them aside that they are not also also capable in also using Thugs because they could also use thugs in order to discredit any protest So it could go the pendulum could go either either way That's what I'm saying that it was available for the voting pass that I've been sure if you have told the line of sanity to say Okay, let's come and look at all this issue on ground critically Taking into consideration that there is a labor act There's also civil service rules all this thing. There are a stat law that spares out exactly how Labor should be engaged people should be served from their work and the remediation to be paid to them Look at the over 21,000 Teachers that were signed the government in 2017 As we speak They have I understand they have not even received their their What you call the seven some packages So there are so many issues before I reply and if he lost Kaduna said he should go back to negotiation table and then let them begin to negotiate and say how they can Put a stop Needless Well, you described the Kaduna said governor, you know in the start of this interview as grandstanding Um, but you know, I want you, you know to also speak on you know, the his reaction to Protestants seeing that couple of years ago. He supported the nlc and tuc He was part of you know, um a few protests, you know in the against the previous administration He tweeted things like no retreat. No surrender a couple of years ago So, you know, what seems to have changed with regards his understanding of the rights to protest and the use of the nlc in Nigeria Well, it has crossed over to the last part of the divide even us journalists or Some of people who call themselves Activists you realize that once they are on the other side of the of the divide They look at the government the way government is working and then they are not agreeing with the work of major policies and actions and all that It's very very easy for you to start affecting the government. So this is what the others are doing I mean, I can also like him that the game of football or game of are you or the game of draft When you are standing by you are seeing move you will seem Moves better than those who are playing but once you step into the figure of play You see that you don't have to be seeing those moves. So that's exactly what is happening now What has changed that every five was on the other side of the divide. He was seeing things better But now being a player a political actor in this game Now he can no longer see what he was seeing then and he also used the nlc to further his next to further his next If you remember that that time he wanted his This party to be in government So it was okay for him for him to join post-20sc to bring that government Not bring that in the amount of stick anyway, but again now he has Got the money of the people and then he's now in government You see that the pendulum has swung the other way and it's now against him So what has changed is that what he was seeing then he's no longer seeing them because if you are outside government It's easy for you to be the best president or to be the best Governor but once you are there all the problems are not seen will now be Physically and then you now know that The business of government is different from Where you see why you are on the flanks But but why does it seem that when it comes to having negotiations, you know It's a challenge because we know that ayubaba mentioned You know the labor act he specifically mentioned section 20 Saying that the labor act specifies that you know if such you know mass disengagement Will still take place You know the government should have a sit down and consult with labor But they did not do that and then they resorted to their last option which is protest So why do we see it seem to have a government that is so averse to both, you know Dialogue and and and peaceful protest Well, we will look at if you trace the history of where people who became What I call Accidental politicians It is always what they do and if I have been issue has never been a politician Now if I were to be a total better politician I'm sure he will be able to look at how to sit down to know that even right now We are having people being traumatized We are having people who are losing their jobs. We're having people who don't even know where the next man will come So a total bad politician would not go the welfare to fight But if I as we say, you know him He's um He's always the what we call down south here the the gregama But grega in most cases would not not solve certain things like they because there are laws involved There are civil service rules. There are There is this labor act which is in the exclusive exclusive list And I don't find the law that he's putting forward Cannot have overriding power. I mean only the labor act which is in the exclusive list So whether you talk about left or center or anywhere, I don't find this is the one world that he can't win And I think what you should be to do Is to say, okay, you know why for the for public interest Come let's go back to revolution table so that we can continue negotiating and begin to Look at the gray areas and see how they can get those things out A couple of the newspapers this morning reported that the federal government was going to wade into this Issues in what ways do you think the Nigerian government should step in? um to create of course a peace Well first most of the reason the one of the reason that want to weigh in is that The the oil workers already threatened are going to be down to and you know, yes And that way that way that way affect the whole country. No, just governor's name And then the government itself that is fighting right now to be accepted the government that You look at the economy is not working as the the eternity to be And then you are having this image image image of the government being back and I mean central government I mean if you can't allow that government also sit down and they allow Just a state out of 36 to now be having negative effect on what they are already doing So the way they should come if you call a refile and then incidentally Is an APC governor and then the government has set as APC Governor so they have A course to now say okay come let's talk about let's just trade cautiously so that it does not Become a contradiction that will consume all of us So they have a they have a lot of they have a lot of don't know to play to call him to order And then to make sure that he goes back to what usually happens when there is legal dispute You go for negotiation and not to begin to bring the martial martial laws that are that are irrelevant in today's government Nigeria and can the nlc president truly be charged with economic sabotage Well, and if I the losses is Excoating I mean it's laughable Because if you recall that even when we had the military, I mean join the military era I think there's a specifically about the diagram when you had the Universal he but on letters bonus, right and he got me that I use these military Yeah, and this Strength to say they messed up But the government didn't win you knew I mean you remember like was able to get me where they They can they can run ride road rush all over everybody But they had to pull the pass of peace and they came back and negotiate it. So I don't I don't see what you have done wrong and they're not be slamming him with a Economic sabotage. I have he's laughable. All right. I think we can wrap up here. Thank you very much. Mr Charles For joining us this morning. Thanks for your time. I appreciate. Thank you. All right. We're moving straight to discussing and bringing in now the National leader of the Nigerian Labor Congress a Yuba wabahi joins us after this very short break