 Hello everybody and welcome to episode 119 of the Agile podcast. This is a summary episode of one of our prestigious pint series with the one and only global superstar and author of coaching Agile teams, Lisa Adkins. We didn't really talk much about coaching Agile teams because that's something she's pretty much left in the past and she's moving on to more leadership work these days and the focus of our conversation was largely around mental health and well-being. Very important and relevant topic given that it was mental health awareness week at the time and the fact that Well everyone's mental health has been under a little bit of strain during this pandemic. So interesting to get her take on that and Check out the full episode if you want to watch the whole hour long chat, which flew by You can go to that get that at patreon.com slash the Agile podcast, but other than that All we'd say is check out our awesome new merch Which you can find in inspectingadapt.com forward slash shop and we want to give an awesome shout-out to three of our brand new patrons So Donna Marie Lee in Japan John coming in the UK and Lisa Crispin in the US have all joined our club So cheers to all of you and cheers to all of you. Here's Lisa Headphones in hello. Hello You weren't on mute, but you just didn't have your ears in okay, you couldn't hear me You all right. Yeah, good Yeah, can you hear that? Cool caps gone flying. I'm pouring a look a glass of Alcohol-free 7-up 3-7 it's lovely and clear this Let me just taste it for you. It tastes like lemon and lime This is tastes like this. It's a good a good port mix of this one Jeff. I imagine Some people some of our listeners would know what we were referring to you there We must have told that story a long time ago, but in a nutshell Well, it was probably episode three or something. Yeah, it was very early in the day in the back in the day Well, no, we were in Porto in a lovely in the home of port I assume it's the home of port And Jeff I think it was the last evening we were a conference there Jeff in the hotel bar Jeff orders me a very expensive Glass of 40 year old port. Yeah, I was treating you. It was I took one sip of it. I thought oh, no Can't drink that so I emptied my half a can of Sprite into the Into the drink and finished it a port and lemonade which was rather nice Well, you actually explicitly asked the barman for did I yeah, oh, we didn't have it open already actually asked him That's even more embarrassing. Oh embarrassing the look on his face. I imagine was a picture. Hmm. I'm surprised They let you out of country. I know I'm not gonna let you back in again But that must have been fair in the first kind of year that we started doing the air doing the pub cast It when it was in its infancy. Hmm. Well now here we are in our own homes Yeah, I can still remember sitting out next to the river Beautiful in it. The sander man sander man. Yeah lovely wasn't it The boats going past does you seven up taste nicer in your glass? It does Let me let me just have another sip from my agile pub cut. I'll try and hold it with a brand product placement Mmm My agile pub cast glasses is getting washed as we had our lock-in last night So we did it was a late night. No, so no my merch is restricted to opening my bottle with my agile pub cast bottle opener Placing my glass on my agile pub cast be a coaster. Yeah, my glasses also my agile pub cast back coaster. So I've got a nice dark Amber ale from Cornwall. I think doomba is in Cornwall. Okay Cornwall or dorset. I think it's pretty sure it's corn. Yeah Cornwall the mouth of the camel estuary for you. Mmm my nickname Cheers, mate. Cheers Any good. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I've Had it before when I'm especially when I go to Cornwall. It's one of the one of the classics Yeah, I've done that Tribune and things like that. But yeah, it's very nice tangy tribute. Yes. Yeah, not particularly It's not it's just an ale rather than a pale ale. So not not a huge amount of hops in there just Yeah, it's a little bit I suppose You probably call it spicy, but not particularly spicy And a very light new castle brown. Okay. You've ever had that So that diet new castle brown, I would Quite refreshing well, good news Jeff I'm opening the your birthday present to me this weekend, which is a huge five-liter keg of Dunkerton the cider which will go down very nicely And that we're hoping the weather will improve, but it's a bit overcast forecast, but um Yeah, my family come down for a family barbecue and it would have been my mum reminded me today It would have been my granddad's 100th birthday really if yeah, he died I think he was well about six or seven years ago But yet the Sunday would have been his hundred so it's even my mum was going to celebrate with a glass of cider I think as well, so we're gonna crack that open on Sunday as a special occasion. Hmm Yeah, have you sort of birthday to your granddad? Yes So this is a this is a what are we calling them summary episodes? Yeah it's kind of a a Recap a recap an overview a review of the sub of a prestigious point we have wasn't it hmm So back well But this comes out maybe maybe quite a few weeks ago I'm not sure when it will come out, but yeah a couple of few weeks ago. We got together with the one and only Lisa Atkins. Yeah Find a strange pronouncing her name Lisa I want to say Lisa but Lisa. Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't know many leases that are L Y double SA That's a apart from Lisa Atkins But it was great to have our ever on the on the pubcast. Hmm. We had a good chat. We did. Yeah, it's um quite a Emotional one. Yeah the right word not that we were like crying or Roller coaster of emotions or anything, but it was it was it touched on emotions quite a lot. Yeah, it's a sensitive episode Yeah, yeah All sensory. Yeah, very good. It didn't kind of Evolved as these conversations do but it did have sort of an underlying theme of Personal resilience. Yep and how She was very Very open with us in terms of how she's been dealing with the the pandemic and how Yeah Quite a lot of she was generalizing across the whole of the country wouldn't she had access to um medical friends And telling us how we weren't alone in the fact that we've we've been feeling busier, but not productive Yes I wonder if we've got a little Sound bite we can play No, it's not just you I just I really do have the less capacity and speaking of privileged Places I get to choose how much I want to work, right? so I can I can Titrate how much I take in so that I have enough to give for that And so far, you know, I'm still really functioning quite well for my clients and You know for the people I'm collaborating with But I could also feel the edge of like How much longer can this go on and and and how much more capacity reduction will I experience? I feel a little bit Sort of like I'm putting myself out there And maybe people won't want to contact me for work and I'm like don't do that I love to work. I would love to work with you. You know, I don't want to and at the same time I just want to take that risk Because I think that as you said Jeff you'd like, you know, I'm not the only one And I think this is a growing elephant in the room and I talked with my doctor. She's like you would not believe how I am prescribing anti-anxiety and anti-depressants right now Really? He said it's unbelievable So I want to just open up the conversation and start talking about What is going on for people and I've been talking with my clients about You know, so what's the capacity you're expecting? From the people in your organization You know, and how much can you scale back your ambition to meet the moment? Because the moment is not like all cylinders firing and we can just keep On this mythology of growth forever Yeah, long one. A long clip. But um, yeah, it's um It was particularly pertinent at the time. I think that we recorded this because um It was mental. Um, it was was it mental health awareness week? I think Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly in the uk. I don't know if that was a global thing or but just a uk thing, but It certainly did bring true with with with us at the time. I remember because I think I think companies have become a lot more aware and a lot more, um, conscious of People's well-being and and even within teams, you know, um checking in with people and And you know on a human level, um asking Are you okay or at least acknowledging that it's okay not to be okay? It's been rough. It has been rough for a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah It's um, she used the phrase accumulation of anxieties And it is lots of little things in many ways, isn't it? It's not like I mean for some people they've had big disruptions But for for many it's lots and lots of little things that have just piled on top of one another It was a really funny I say Freudian slip. It's probably it's not technically a Freudian slip, but I don't sure what else to call it. So I'll do I'll just play it From a personal standpoint, I am certainly feeling what I what I view as the accumulated effects Of this last 12 years 12 years Feels like it doesn't it does feel like it. Oh my gosh, does it feel like it for 12 months and That slip of the tongue. Yes But that that was that's her unconscious leaking into it. We we joked before haven't we about how this this month Felt like a long week or something like that. Yeah. Yeah um It does time seems to pass a lot slower and maybe that's A lot to do with monotony. I think in terms of I still joke now that every day kind of looks the same and We're talking at the lock-in her last night when we in terms of I think the thing that I miss is the variety. It's not so much to travel It's not so much the um The work it's it's the variety. It's the difference in work. It's the difference in locations And I think time has seemed to pass a lot slower when there's less Going on But the diary is less busy yeah and yet It's quite amazing to think that This all started about 18 months ago Yeah, that's weird, isn't it? Maybe we've become conditioned to that. Maybe what you know in terms of um Yeah, it's but then if you think back six months ago, we were I was certainly complaining about how How painful it was six months ago and it was six months or eight months into a to the pandemic And my anxiety levels were probably the highest I think Work-wise well, okay, probably judging it mainly by work, but um September um There was an initial kind of um kind of Spirit wasn't there for so within our house. So yeah, we'll get through this as a family But yeah by six months through that we were I think fairly worn down Uh six eight months in we were yeah, we were fed up with it pretty much by them Yeah, and I'm to be fair. She wasn't just talking about Just the pandemic although there were There was a funny little but also a lot of truth in the humor We we talked a little bit about privilege and um sort of guilt that we feel for Being Frustrated with our situation when actually we have got a lot to be grateful for yeah Um, she used a really interesting phrase that she got from her daughter. I'll just um I'll just play that if I got it It was incredibly hard to buy a dishwasher. Yeah It was incredibly hard to get it installed. I mean it was like, oh my gosh like something that was just bing bang boom happened With no stress at all was a two month stressorama In my house, right? So so now let's be really clear When I say that sort of thing I immediately feel sort of like the guilt and shame of Oh my godly. So you're so like dishwasher really like that's so that is such a privilege Problem, right? Yeah, exactly and my daughter who's really skilled in these sorts of things would say, uh, mom Don't compare pain Right. So whatever you're experiencing. It's not comparable With the pain that someone else experiences who doesn't have running water in their house. Both are pain You know both are stressed both are anxiety and I think that so it's so here's the thing. It's never the dishwasher No, it's what's it's what's the underneath current Hmm And that I thought was a really I know it's a slightly Jokey comment, but I think there's a lot to that because we we do Tend to think our problems are more than other people's Yeah, but equally we can feel guilty for focusing on our on our own challenges and I think one thing that are really, um I think at least there is amazing at is holding herself in in a very neutral state and being able to To take judgment out of things See things as they are and give people space Yeah, and as I think there's a real, um There's a fine line isn't there between there's I think there's a it can be quite cathartic to um to Get things off your chest if you even if you can't buy a dishwasher or you can't you know I had to queue for the shop for the supermarket for for 25 minutes And I've never had to do that before or I can't get a hold of prunes in the supermarket there's a there's a sense of You can download that stuff and you can vent about that stuff, but you get yeah It's not it should never be at the um at the expense or without caring about or Or comparing your problems to someone else's you think that's bad. Look at my problems that type of thing. Yeah Yeah, I completely agree. Also, I can't think of the The tv show now, but you you want Nigel would be able to reel it off straight away. I'm sure but there was a A comedy sketch from it's the multi python, isn't it? Is it? Oh, yeah. Yeah the multi python sketch. Yeah, you think that's bad I was yeah, I was living in a puddle at the end of the road. Yeah, that type of thing. Yeah You had it you had it easy. Yeah, you've had it easy. Yeah, that's I know you were born But that that's interesting. That's a that's a really good point link actually because that sense of being listened to and we've Many years ago. We we encouraged teams even Co-located teams who've been together for a while. We encouraged them to Check in with one another because it's very easy to be physically present but not mentally present You know starting off A daily scrum for example with you know a quick check-in. You know, I had a really terrible commute to work today I'm really worried about um, you know, my daughter's got an exam today or whatever Um, and now I've got I've got that off my head out of my head off my chest and I'm here and I'm here and that I think I don't know whether we've got enough of that and by my reason for saying that I raised this with with Lisa when we were chatting it's that People have always said my coaching sessions Now and again, they would say my coaching sessions feel a bit like therapy But I think I've had more of that recently And my theory is that people generally just don't get really listened to Um, you call it listening to you know reloading Yeah, Stephen Covey would call it listening with the intent to replying Um, whereas in my coaching sessions, I will quite often just listen for a while and let them get that off their chest So that they're then in a state of resourcefulness Um, so that that's where the conversation went there and After she she made this comment about the so many people in the u.s being on anxiety medication depression medication And everyone sort of a breaking point if you like then my Linking that with with my with my is what's the difference in coaching and therapy type pondering Um, I had this hypothesis that if if more people are Broken or close to breaking point then is there actually less room for coaching now because one of the fundamental underpinning principles of coaching is that people are whole and they don't need fixing And they're resourceful and You know creative and they can solve their own problems But if more people are not whole or close to not being whole then actually Can we are we not able to coach do we need to add some kind of almost therapeutic skill set to our to our toolbox perhaps? Yeah, certainly asking different questions and and certainly, um And it's a really difficult thing and I don't know if it is confirmation bias, but it came up for me in a class the other week in an advanced class for scrum masters that Um, somebody again referred to it. This is this this feels a bit like therapy or it felt a bit They've just come out of a coach session. They felt a bit like therapy Now maybe that's because I was expecting it or anticipating it, but I think as we and I don't think it's a bad thing, but it's becoming more conscious of How people are feeling then it's more important to be able to notice when You've you've you've stepped between coaching and you've gone more you've gone you cross that line um, and whether you feel prepared to deal with it or to cope with it or to um Or to advise on it whether that might be Well, at least had an interesting take on that And you know one of the things that is a little Essentially misleading is that it looks a lot like therapy. Yeah, I mean you're sitting down talking You might be using other modalities like bringing someone through a process helping them ground in their body So all of that would feel like therapy to someone who hasn't actually had therapy before If someone has had therapy before and they know that that where the focus is is on You know sort of the past and how did I get here? What do I need to unknot from the past? Then they can see the distinction, but but looking from the outside like if you were just looking through soundproof glass Right a therapy session and a coaching session Could you tell the difference? Maybe not, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that someone needs a therapist To function in the modern world, which let's just say is more uncertain now that it ever has been and humans aren't built for uncertain And that that that comment we don't need a therapist to get that for me It's something that I'll caveat this this statement of people saying they they feel my coaching is like therapy because Generally asked so have you had therapy before and so no, it's just what I imagine therapy to be like um, and it it is a common misconception and it It's we are we we've talked to other people and this is sort of fresh in my mind from another conversation I've had recently about different interpretations of coaching so Speaking to coaches who have a different view of coaching to me You know they're much more for example technically minded and I would see what they do a lot more as mentoring rather than coaching But it's such a wide school That you get these definitions a little bit muddled up But oh, sorry Jeff just to interrupt but what so Here's a here's a hypothesis or here's a The statement of the debate, but is is there a perception? Do you think then from a human point of view and I may be putting my own spin on this my own lens on this But coaching seems the word The the verb to coach Tends to sound more positive in terms of it's trying to grow your strengths And therapy on the on the flip side to that sounds like just from Historical referencing therapy sounds like you'll fit like you say you're fixing something that's wrong about you It's a weakness. It's a vulnerability that you have Is it less is it less popular To talk about therapy than it is to talk about coaching Well, I still come across organizations where coaching is a is a loaded word because it's people have been coached out of the business Um, so they've been put on a performance improvement plan And the only way that they get coaching is if they're on if they've been shown to be a poor performer Also, you need you need to be coached if you're yes as a way of performance management And so that has a stigma associated as well in certain circumstances um But yeah, so it could be either way, but I think in general I think you're probably right um and you know Getting people Turning up to coaching sessions and they know it's a coaching session and they know what coaching is But they just need longer to get Into a state of resourcefulness. They need to get a little bit more Off their chest. There's a little bit more there at the start that just they just need to wade through or shake off. Yeah um It um I'd say it's a little bit might might be well, so I said do we need Can you see a situation where we might have you know an agile therapist in the team or something like that? And it's no no we don't we don't need that we don't need that to function in them in the modern world, but we might need To just be a little bit more aware of When people are in different states, right? So I'll just play that one. Okay Maybe not everyone needs to add this, but I think a number of us agile us need to add trauma informed to our skill set Not like not that we're going to become experts in helping people process trauma But we're going to become much more aware of noticing when trauma is present or it's getting recapitulated for someone and not pushing through in that moment And that made me think of how Um, so I'm really jealous of some of my kids education Some of the lessons genuinely to some of the lessons they've had have been brilliant just the non curricular stuff, right? So So my daughter's had lessons on self-defense She's had lessons on small talk And things like that and another thing that she she she did through school was She she had the chance to become a mental health first aider and so To be able to recognize the signs within her friends of when someone might not be okay Yeah, and it's not to turn them into a therapist or that they can you know go and work at the Samaritans or something But literally the first aid is you are the first person who who is on site and who can give some aid until the professionals can take over And having that kind of awareness and skill set That is such a young age. I think fantastic And I think we might see a lot more of that in the workplace. Hmm You ever done anything like that? I'm sorry. I think you're playing something there, but that's a long long pause um, no, I think that's that's something I think I think Again, it might be my imposter syndrome kicking in but um I think I'd suffer I'd struggle with that. I think I just it would be I don't know I don't know what to look for. I don't know what the signals are and I maybe I might make light of them and my instincts yeah, it's Humor always gets me out of a lot of sticky situations and in some respects, that's the wrong option You know when when it's but I don't think I worry I wouldn't be able to spot some of these things occasionally um But maybe yeah, maybe I'm doing myself a disservice Not quite sure. Hmm Well, I mean it's it's something that I think I'm I'm grateful that I've Picked up over the years. I just wish I'd had that Those skills earlier. Yeah Yeah, just the things that I say to my kids for example, you know Just just today my youngest was just really really upset And my instinctive response is to say don't be upset. Yeah, you're all right. Yeah. That's completely invalidating His feelings right there. No, I can do other things. I can distract him I can tell him that it will be okay or I can you know ask him What he wants or what he needs But just this just my instinctive response to come to him was to say don't be sad. Don't be sad. You'll be all right. It's okay Yeah Little things like that at a team level of being able to to actually hear people to listen to people And it does it does take a little bit of a toll at times and people can feel really uncomfortable Uh in those situations. I mean I'm I'm I'm so used to it now I'll have people crying in my coaching sessions regularly not because I've upset them. I hasten to add But just because they're just going getting through some of the stuff that's really been bugging them frustrating them Whether it's from other people or their own actions or what have you um and Doesn't bother me in the slightest. It doesn't I don't feel uncomfortable and I think they then feel comfortable with that And then we can we can work with it. But there is an element of an emotional toll on A coach or a friend or Anybody in a supportive environment and actually andreas Asked a question one of our patrons Andreas asked a question. You knew we were speaking to Lisa and so what do you want to ask and you want to know how What she recommended for looking after yourself after an emotional interaction And interestingly enough like any good agile coach. She didn't answer the question I love my early training with the coaches training institute on this actually because It's not the question of what do I do after it's the question of what I do before And so one of the things that I'm reminding myself a lot of these days Is the one of the foundations the cornerstones of co-active coaching, which is People are naturally creative resourceful and whole So this is back to like there's nothing to fix right even someone experiencing A moment of amygdala hijack because there's a trauma that's been recapitulated That person is still whole That person is still capable and resourceful and creative and so My job in the in the interaction with them Is to help them explore but to keep them at choice So that when I leave the interaction I feel really clean That I didn't force anything on them. I didn't try to do a sell job on something I thought they should do I didn't even vote one way or the other on the thing They decided to do that it really was something they owned so that when I leave I'm not asking the question Oh, did I harm them? I like that phrase keeping them at choice. Hmm. I've never used that phrase never really heard that phrase before but it's It's a you know a pillar of my coaching philosophy is that I don't want to choose for them. I don't want to Put any kind of implicit judgment on their options Um, and so what she's saying there, which I thought was really Really powerful is remind yourself before You're going in that no matter how emotional things get They're still capable Of dealing with that And and it's not for you to take on that emotion And solve it. It's to keep them at choice Yeah, I think you're right. I think certainly, um Being more aware so it made me think about empathy and about um Daniel Goldman stuff. Was it gone? I'm sure it was um around um different levels of empathy and I remember reading a blog appears about Going from kind of superficial kind of um empathy. I can't remember what the word for it was cognitive empathy. I think it was Right compassionate empathy all the way through to emotional empathy. That's literally where you If someone starts crying you start crying you got you basically Share that emotion. I think because especially given the current situation given everyone's emotions are that much closer to the surface and because you perhaps Feel a little bit more distant because most of this stuff is being done remote remotely we feel you know, we um I'm not going to say we feel we care more but we feel we we need perhaps need to Become the become the help be the help Um rather than trying to help people To to get through that themselves and to and to you know to deal with that themselves. Yeah Well, it can it can be a distraction Yeah, some people will use other people's Situations as a distraction from their own um And that's a reason for for keeping people in the victim mindset and staying in the rescue mindset because then you don't have to deal with your own You don't have to deal with your own shit. But fair play fair play to lisa. She did actually then Give an example of a technique that she uses to help um release any kind of emotional Baggage, I suppose that's left over from from an interaction and I I I did enjoy watching your face as she was explaining this technique I am realizing that I'm starting to carry a little bit of This is especially the larger client systems like the larger organizations. I'm starting to carry a little bit of their stuff Yeah, and so for that I use something called quarter release Which is this is something my energy Healer taught me which is oh so good. So in a nutshell What you're doing is you are releasing the cords or the connections That you have put into the client or the clients put into you that no longer serve Okay You're releasing anything that does not serve your highest good. This is for your benefit In a nutshell which out there in front of you and then you're just brushing your body And you're just noticing like where it feels like there are cords connections bands caps blocks anything That feels like it's gotten on you and you're literally brushing it off and giving it back to the ground and what I am what my Energy healer taught me to say is Am I easily let go of anything that is not in my highest good? Get it back to the ground You've tried that No Have you Um, so when in in some of our classes In the old days when we used to do classes, uh, one of the exercises that we did was visualization exercises helping people visualize alternative futures so they can Basically Remove or reduce or mitigate the impact of a couple of cognitive biases that we have around temple discounting and and the ikea effect And so I get them to close their eyes and I talk them through these futures and they they tell me about it and they picture themselves in this future And one of them is naturally going to be less positive than another but either way In order to get back to a neutral state in between imagining those futures I would encourage them to open their eyes stand up and just shake Shake their body off because naturally while you are you probably don't realize it But when you when you're when you're sleeping and when you're dreaming you're you're tensing your muscles You're you're moving around sometimes you're talking your body is is is capturing Different types of energy in different places different ways and by just shaking it off you kind of back to neutral again so to a degree yes, um Although I haven't actually consciously done that exercise at the end of a coaching session Generally speaking because at the end of a coaching session I do get up and I move physically somewhere else anyway So I think I have the same kind of thing even if it's not a conscious explicit use of that that's all Yeah, and I wonder if we've talked to in previous pubcasts a while as well about You can coach on the move and you can yeah, you can do a lot of things whilst moving and that probably helps Even subconsciously knowing that you're in a different place at the end on a journey You're at the different place at the end physically than you are we were at the beginning of that conversation So yeah, just the phrase like you say shake shake it off as Taylor Swift once said very good popular culture reference Yeah, thank you very much. Um, but uh, yeah actors do it and and um Uh sports people do it Yeah before um a run an event I suppose it's it is a little bit about I suppose it's not just getting out of the zone, but it's getting into it, isn't it? It's putting yourself into it as well as being able to get out of it It's probably a similar energy. Yeah, you remove one set in what one Um amount of energy and you focus just to allow you to focus on another Yeah, you've done power posing before haven't you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a similar kind of thing Yeah, you know it's manifesting through physical posture A mental state and it's a similar kind of thing Um, she uses imagination Perhaps a little bit more than than you are or I in that situation, but it's the same kind of concept. Yeah your limbic brain. Yeah Very good. Yeah, it was um Yeah, I couldn't help but ask and I I do feel guilty about these types of things just like I did when we when we were speaking to Esther a few episodes ago about How uh, how people do tend to get a label and then she is the coaching agile teams lady, right? So that yeah that coaching agile teams book is one that almost Any Agilist that's being Involved in Agile for over a year. I reckon has had that has read that book I almost Be be guaranteed to say that so uh, but what was interesting is that um That she says is behind her so So is that behind you now would you say with the coaching skills fragile? Yeah, the the piece. Yes, it is It is I'm not doing any training in agile coaching anymore Yeah, and I don't have any desire or plans to create more curriculum or development programs or anything like that So here's the piece that's not done is that the coaching agile teams book is still going like gang busters And so I feel there's a privilege I have of honoring that work and honoring what what what it still wants to do in the world And and the piece I'm picking up from that Is creating ways for more people to experience that that content more deeply Without having to go to a course and I'm thinking about People who are in lower income situations and so there's something brewing right now Which is a coaching agile teams book club Which will be something that we that I take a group through and record it and then it can be available for a solo Journey it can be available for You know group of people moving together as a cohort and doing the exercises together and supporting one another Musical interlude that yeah um Yeah, so that that idea of where she was she was going in the future and there was It was a lot of talk about how She's thinking much much bigger picture than than agile Yes much more global issues planetary issues and she's Picking and choosing her work now that that allow her To engage with people who have a bigger impact Yeah on on the planet um and We'll uh We won't play this now because it's actually a big part of it And it's not something that we can we can summarize very very quickly, but she had this phrase conscious leaders make healthy choices That's guiding her work going forward. I really like that phrase conscious leaders make healthy choices if I was to Put that through my own lens, you know, I talk a lot about how we don't see the world as it is We see the world as we are And All things being equal people are good people are positive people want to be good They want to be positive. They want to they want to grow They would they like having positive healthy relationships and yet we don't always do the right thing. We don't always Make the right choice often because we have a lot of Unconscious biases that are that are going around with us and we have assumptions and insecurities and all these sorts of things And so what she's saying is her work now is to help The people who have the potential to make an impact on the world become more conscious So they make more healthy choices and I thought that's a really interesting place that she's going there Yeah, I mean it's interesting. She's yeah, she's leaving that coaching agile world or not not leaving behind I suppose but just her focus and I think a lot of people that the the pandemic has brought a lot of people's Ambitions into focus a lot more and yeah, and there's no surprise to hear Lisa's going down that route But it's yes in a sparring place to be absolutely and she can make if there's leaders that do benefit from her her Her work and her engaging with her then yeah, I'm absolutely confident that they're going to be better off because of it And you were so you said if and and you did sort of ask a question You are are you seeing a positive uptake in this? You know, are you seeing Leadership teams and leaders more open to some of the concepts that we've been talking about and encouraging within the agile space and then She drew an interesting amusing analogy. It's the last clip I'll play I think Yes, it's it's sort of like how yoga is sort of acceptable now. Yeah You know, it's it's not it's not weird anymore And not everyone wants to do it So it's not for everybody But it's not weird And so she's kind of saying well, yeah my my The people that I'm going to work with are kind of going to self-select themselves out. She's going to be quick. Yeah Clear about what she's doing why she's doing it how she's doing it and and working with those that are more willing And interested in in making that kind of shift. Yeah I think and I'm going to make a a rugby analogy here um But uh, I think I've been told I've been By by medical professionals for a long time as a rugby player. I need to do Um, not just rugby related drills, but I need to do core fitness stuff Which I've always said ah, wow, you know, that's all a bit weird and I probably did use those words at one point. That's you know the idea of Stretching pilates yoga that yeah, that's that's not really a rugby a rugby players thing. Is it but again even in the professional the professional areas are here as well now sports people um Generally realize that it's more your whole self and and is part of the um part of the process of being a better professional so Yeah, I think it's certainly less uh taboo. It's less weird and um Yeah, I think it's an integral part of of growth and strategy these days to take on that approach Yeah, and that first just speaking for myself here And I think you were you were kind of hinting at this. I'm jumping on your bandwagon here, I suppose But the fact that you know Lisa is Is aiming herself at that level gives me a lot more hope for the future Yeah, because we need a lot more people like her working with the leaders of our of our companies organizations industries Um, so yeah all power to she's she's been a she has been one of the big inspirations in the agile space um for many years even though she she was saying well, I haven't created I haven't created anything new for a long time but And I think she will I'm sure she will continue to be I'm not I don't think she's going to disappear from that I don't know At all but and I think she's still inspired and she's still um she is still a voice and even on those And on that call that we had with an hour just disappeared didn't it and it was um You know kind of one of those um people you I'm happy to sit and listen to Yes, so Cheers to Lisa. Cheers Lisa. Thank you for coming on If you want to hear the the full episode then that's available through our patron site patron Dot com slash the agile podcast along with all of the other prestigious pint episodes with people like Mike Cone and Sandy Mamoli and the pop and deeks and Roman Piccolo and all sorts of agile legends that we've that we've we've spoken to and we'll be speaking to Yeah, there's more to come more. There's some and more soon So until then And if you want some merch head on over To inspect and adapt comm slash the slash shop and get your own agile podcast Glasses and beer coasters and bottle openers and all sorts But then that keep on doing what you're doing and we will see you again very soon. Cheers everyone. Bye. Bye