 Hello and welcome. We are coming to you live from Washington, D.C., Enterprise Data World. My name is Shannon Kamp and I'm the Executive Editor of Data Diversity. We'd like to thank you for joining this month's installment of the Monthly Data Diversity Webinar Series, the Chief Data Officers Agenda. This month, Joan Lodzley and Tony Shaw will discuss what data strategists are talking about after attending this week's CDO Vision Forum. Just a couple of points to get us started. Due to the large number of people that attend these sessions, you will be muted during the webinar. For questions, we'll be collecting them by the Q&A in the bottom right hand corner of your screen, or if you'd like to tweet, we encourage you to share highlights or questions via Twitter using hashtag CDODataStrategy. As always, we will send a follow-up email within two business days containing links to the slides, the recording of this session, and any additional information requested throughout the webinar. Now, let me introduce our speakers for today. Well-known industry analyst, Joan Lodzley is a business technology thought leader and recognized authority in all aspects of enterprise information management, with 30 years' experience in planning and project management, improving IT organizations, and successful implementation of information systems. As president of IMQ Solutions, he leads a consultancy focused on improving a client's business results through information management and data governance. You can also check out his blogs on Dativersity.net. And moderating today's discussion is Dativersity's own CEO, Tony Shaw. Tony is, of course, responsible for the business strategy of the company and its subsidiaries, including Dativersity.net and all of the others, all of which conduct educational conferences, training, and publishing activities focused on the area of enterprise data management. Of course, I trip over the description of our own company. That's all right. I do it all the time. And with that, I will hand it over to Tony and John to get started. Hello and welcome. Thanks a lot, Shannon. It is kind of funny, actually, to all be sitting here in one room today around a table when normally we're in our respective offices in different corners of the country. But it's nice to be doing that for change. Welcome, everybody. So just a little bit about what our plan is for today. We've been at the Enterprise Data World Conference here in Washington, D.C. since Sunday. Part of that program conference which was held on Monday and Tuesday. And between those two events, there's almost 1,000 people that have been here this week in Washington. A representation at the conference this year at both portions of it. We've got at least 14, 15 chief data offices by that name in attendance, organizations from government to more prevalent to see the different perspectives that certainly there are some commonalities. There's plenty of uniqueness about them during the week. Both formal in terms of presentations, for example, from the CDO vision conference, as well as some of the informal conversations, the things that you've been to industry events before. You know they tend to happen late at night at the bar or over dinner. Or if you weren't here, you can just get an understanding for how the conversation was conducted. We, at the CDO vision program, we invited three speakers followed that up with an extensive moderated conversation. We had five topics over a day and a half. Analytics and data science. We talked about governance, risk and security. Innovation and monetization. So data innovation and making money with data. And then we talked about organization and structure, which is mostly focused around the role of the CDO and how to optimize a data focused organization or data management organization. So it was a wide ranging discussion. I have to say that the thing that was, trust me, is how consistently business focused that conversation was. I think there were barely two slides in the entire, what do we have, 18, 20 presentations that mentioned any sort of technology at all. John, let me just open up by asking you for your general impression about the key themes over the course of the two. I'd say key themes conversation. I think if you pin me to the ground and say what are three things that you heard consistently. One, it would be that more discussion is around operational aspects and the day in, day out aspects, therefore the CDO fitting the business. I would say the third area would be CDO and still some of the debate about that. Within that there's some of our talks you can see there on the agenda, but those are the three things that really stand out to me as hearing consistently. Especially from the things like that. Sure. And if I was to name three, I'd put the alignment at the top of the list that was just super consistent. I think what was, was that there is already some churn, the average 10 year in the three years for a CIO, a wave of CDOs, other CDO opportunity, which indicates a lot of dynamics in that market. It also indicates, some of them are also burnout, that the job was, it was a huge leadership position in some of the roles and really demanded enormous amounts of time and the position itself was probably defined more narrowly than what it ended up being and it stressed the people too much. In terms of churn it was interesting to me how many CDOs had reported to multiple senior executives or at least in the first six to 12 months of the establishment of that role before it settled into a place. So it was obviously very difficult to find the right place for this role. That's an indicator that the organization itself wasn't really sure what that person's going to be doing. They know they needed to do something. That's probably where some churn is coming from because the role has changed, we define, and then if someone ends up in a role that will wait, it's not what I signed up for and they go somewhere else. I would say bottom line is indicative of just the, we're at that early stage of that. I agree. It was pretty consistent report to the CIO. Yeah, and that was really interesting. We had a question, remember, the answers were entirely opposite. CDOs report to CIOs and then we went, no, they don't report into other organizations. It's the direct line to CIO or in some cases analytics, then it's a report into the chief marketing office. Yeah, there was remarkable consistency. So one of the memorable conversations that got a lot of, simply the volume of discussion was fairly likely. A few of the analyst firms have made some cases roundly criticized and it was basically came down to that as the CIO had done their job, you wouldn't need a CDO. And that might have been true. What we came up with was the aspect that there's too much happening now for even one person to do that and handle infrastructure and handle applications. It's a different argument than it was two years ago as well. So I think that's an important question. Should you hire a CDO? When do you need a CDO? The first one is, are you investing in data but you don't seem to be making traction? Do you struggle to get consistent answers to important business questions? And she is the classic example of how many customers do we have and how they struggle with a wide range of answers over that. Are you in a regulated industry that goes, of course, to the compliance and governance needs driven by data and then does your company want to be more analytically driven? So I think that's a pretty nice summary of the themes of the conversation that we heard in one area or another depending on what sort of organization you're in. Yeah, there's a couple more before we move on. There was a few remarks about being very, very visible but not being taken seriously at the initial table. And we heard that conversation where the CDO shows up at the leadership table and it's kind of like the new kid on the baseball team, nobody trusts him. And they take some time to get taken seriously and that goes into the last bullet point where everyone who is a full-time CDO or has that top-dated job says it's a lot of work. It's a hard job. It's a challenging job. Which is good, that's what a leadership role should be after all. So there's a question from an audience member, Dan, here that suggests that perhaps most CIOs today should be retitled Chief Technology Officer and leave the information and data management to the CDO organizations already. But this was actually a possibility. But at the same time, when we had a related lively discussion about Chief Data Officer because you're really managing information too, but, oh heck, Chief Information Officer's already taken, so what do you call in them? And no, well, we can't use CTO either because that's taken. So I think what's a lot of that discussion is that that is definitely food for thought. That if your organization is such that moving the information and the data management over to the CDO and leaving technology wires and pliers to the CIO, fine. But then there's also applications. There's also database. There's also privacy security. I think a lot of that depends on your specific circumstances and what you want to title it. At the end of that conversation, we went to Tom Redmond's firm to Heatcoin, the top data job. That's really what we're talking about here. And it's less about the label than the function. It's more about the function, absolutely. I don't want to do this CIO topic to death, but I think the conversation around the relationship between the CDO and the CIO was important. And that also got a lot of interest. Some of the CDOs said there was a rivalry and it was difficult for them. And some said there was great cooperation. And it's really interesting to have the rivalry that that also increased the difficulty of their job. Sure, the CIO was saying, I don't need you. I've got this candle covered. But that speaks to one thing for just advice to the audience. And that is, especially if there's an executive out there listening or a CIO or a CDO or someone thinking about creating that position. If you create that position and don't vet it with your team and prepare your team, that's pretty sufficient leadership. I mean, you're going to bring a brand new executive role to the table and not prepare the table or tell them what they're supposed to be doing. And you're being very reactive. And you've got to be careful about that. There's a big caution out there. But it was a lot of debate on that topic. And as I said, we could talk about that one for a while. We've got some other stuff out here. Yeah, I would agree there was debate. But I think pretty clearly the consensus was that that relationship is absolutely critical to the success of the CDO role. It's without the technology support. I mean, it's a business function. Although there were a couple of great examples. In fact, I have to pull this from my memory rather than my notes. But there was an example that Jennifer Ippoliti used. They were trying to solve a problem that really was more process oriented than it was. It had nothing to do with technology. It wasn't about changing the technology in order to solve the problem in the end, I think. Yeah, but that was also one of the examples where there was a real disagreement because, well, we've got to cover it. But it wasn't a technical problem. I believe it was being covered. The action of the role, because it's unfolding, it's developing so quickly that absolutely, they're reporting to multiple people, shifting responsibilities. I heard here for the first time officially, which is something that has been, I've seen dabbled in is the role of the CDO and the legal relationships of the enterprise in terms of contracts and intellectual property and which, you know, including trademark, service marks, things like that. That in many cases is an asset that's on the balance sheet. And we had a lawyer speaking who said that the CDO knows a lot about these things and could keep companies from getting into just bad agreements on things that affect data. So there was something new popping up. The evolving, we touched on this earlier, so I'm not going to belabor it, but there is still a questioning of the need for a role. We've seen that even in the analysis community and in the Twitter sphere. Did I say that right, Twitter sphere? Twitterverse? Oh, okay, I thought it was a sphere. Anyway, the Twitterverse, at the end of the day, the role's becoming quite solidified. Still in highly regulated institutions, content-rich monetized data on a day-in, day-out basis. We are starting to see an awful lot of pressure for a top-data job in other industries and as we predicted, they're starting to pop up in other industries. I'm going to bar another one of Jennifer's CEO out of jail. They're those that are driven by the faith. And crafting it for yourself. The thing is the information is an important asset. It needs high-level oversight and the CIO doesn't, in a large organization, pretty much does not have the bandwidth to do that anymore. That's what a foil stand is. I'm glad you brought up a lawyer that we had in the room because he came to me now. The attorney was offering advice on auditing outsourcing contracts to ensure that when things go wrong, there's some appropriate remedy, and they disconnected us because we didn't pay the bill. But I guess the point to make here is it was just so valuable to have an alternative point of view in the room because you get so myopic about conventional wisdom in whatever field you have, and then when somebody else comes in with a few alternative points of view on things, it just shakes everything up. And there was a sidebar after that that you weren't around. I had happened to do a talk to a roomful of attorneys at a legal conference two or three years ago. And while I was doing my talk, the room ever makes me really nervous because I teach or something like that. But it turns out that what they were talking about was, this is amazing. We've been worried about this. We're talking about this. We're trying to convey to our CEO-client or our board of directors that we're advising or something that these are issues. And here's this person coming from, in our perception, the world of technology being just as concerned, all that. And then we have an attorney who is not specifically in the field saying things that are incredibly relevant to the field. So that's another one of those sidebar things that through the whole theme of actually this whole EW event, that the data disciplines, the data risk management, all of the drivers we've talked about for a long time are really going mainstream and going mainstream very, very, very fast. The legal profession is coming up square and even with the concerns of enterprise architects and information architects now, which is pretty cool. Yeah, Bill had hit a laundry list. He was one of them, of course. I mean, that's sort of an obvious one. But data ownership was another one. The listening audience's pleasure, he said, the minute you begin to think about, can we do something with this data? You need to be a lawyer. Are we allowed to do anything with that data? Plain and simple, everything. Have that start to have that mindset. And that is so different than something we might have talked about 10 years ago or 5 years ago. Yeah, and a little one-liner from him because we started talking about managing data as an asset. Yes, data is an asset. And you can be cynical about that. But what he's reflecting is property. Obviously, we're not talking about. The point was, you know, there's lots to think about. There's going to be a lot more to think about in terms of the legal framework that surrounds the management, the sale, talking about retention and data life cycles and getting rid of data. And I said, you know, the debate between the lawyers and the analysts is going to get strong in here. He went and just independently from listening to me because I've never met the person before. He said that if the law says you can get rid of the data, then you get rid of the data. If you still think you need it, then you have to reduce that data to those things that you need. But anything that has a statutory risk to it, it's gone. So you just don't keep everything in the salt mine in case you might use it. You have to bring it back in, parse it out, keep what you want and ship the rest out. And I just thought of this just now. It's kind of like a late life cycle, data filtering, ETL, you know, ETL to go off into the data graveyard kind of thing. And again, we're getting some of these new cool things of what we need to do popping up because of this, again. Right. And the previous afternoon, talking about data science, we were basically talking about keeping everything forever in case you might need it to say and be able to do some sort of interesting analytics on it. And the lawyer's going to look at you and say, I can't think of any good reason to keep everything every day. Right. Everything forever then. Right. So we had a couple of good conversations about operationalizing data governance, in particular from Navian. Just gave us a real good dive into the governance and stewardship processes. What were your takeaways from that, John? Well, for those out there working on data governance and stressing out that it's never going to work, it is working. You know, as a consultant, one thing I run into all the time is a consultant customer saying, yeah, but is anybody really doing this? And the answer is an absolute resounding yes. And they're being successful with it. Navian, for example, has great sustaining techniques. They were talking about recognizing the stewards and sending personal letters to stewards who've done a good job. And those are things you go, oh, well, that's kind of folksy, cheesy or something. Well, you know what? If you go to any other aspect in an organization where someone does really good at the sales campaign, they get a personal letter from the boss and a little bit of a perf. You know what? This is normal good human capital practices. I don't know why anyone in our field is like, oh, that's really cool. That's surprising. That means we've been a bunch of HR stumble bums for the last 30 years. What a great idea. Say thank you to somebody. Whoa, what a novel concept. But there's these motivations and novel. I talked offline to someone about rolling out their program, and they based their entire success on making applications development happy. They heard somewhere from some crazy consultant that AFDEV is a big resistance point. So they went out of their way to make AFDEV happy through their governance and data management programs and their success has been terrific on that. The other one good thing that we also heard, which listeners need to take to heart, is the ongoing training. You never stop pulling people in, telling them what's going on with the data, keeping them up to date. That is a prime, prime success factor we heard from all of these people. What really struck me when Jacqueline was talking, HSBC is a huge organization, and they have 12 CDOs or something like that. I don't think it's quite that many, but she heads up the Americas operation and the level of prehensiveness, I guess, across that entire organization was just stunningly impressive. You kind of think in terms of starting small and building out, tackling things step at a time, and they've just... Well, in terms of sort of getting enterprise coverage of something like that, there was this fun little conversation at, I think, again, it was Jennifer DiPoliti from Raymond from James who came up with the word enterprise by enterpriseification. Serious point behind the chuckles that you jumped on that one right away. Wow, anyone who's, you know, has a riff on a certain former president we've had, and that's always... But the serious note was that... and it's another way, it's a better way to say something I've said for a while, which is the E stands for enterprise. This really is enterprise-wide. You've got to keep that in sight. You are working cross-functionally We've had a nice talk, remember, about breaking down silos. Maybe those are the wrong words. You do need silos to divide labor and have an organization be efficient and do efficient processes. But you need... You can't build silos without any type of membrane between them where things can't flow back and forth. And that's a big job of a CDO, which is to find ways to get these silos working across a common matrix type thought. All right, yeah, you might be a silo functioning or process-wise, but there is no such thing as a data silo. All right, you know, and our job is to get to there. And that was a serious aspect of that. Yeah, yeah. So in addition to what we had around monetization, there's some folks... I mean, there are a lot of companies that are... it's easy to see that they are times for millions of dollars, you know, they're selling data as a product. But for most organizations who aren't specifically in those businesses, then it's kind of hard to see how they could do that because people want to hold on to their data. All that makes a lot of sense. Finding a way, maybe it's by opening up their data through an API of some sort or maybe they publish a public data set and have a hackathon to figure out, you know, how people can use it. We saw some presentations around interact, interface with the data in such a way that it provides enjoyment or monetize that. Maybe one example, easy... a simple example of that might be something like a Fitbit, which is, you know, sensing and reading your signals, your body signals all the time and giving you an easy way to interpret that. But then transportation company and he was telling me that they're about to release. And this is a way into the business of selling data, absolutely. And what they're looking at doing, for example, is creating a better measure of economic activity. And this actually goes back to... I'll talk about that in just a minute. A better measure of economic activity by measuring deliveries of goods. I'm using that as a proxy for economic activity. And he said that the testing that they've done has shown that this is a better, more immediate measure, a more accurate measure of GDP generated statistics that end up being revised a couple of months later. He said, you know, we're within 5% every time or whatever it was, .05 perhaps. And so then as an index, to the point where, you know, you can use... There's the old ADB. A lot of people ignore the government employment numbers and use the payroll company's numbers. And that's been going on for a while. And then it just kind of sat quietly until all of a sudden, wow, we can do this. We also talked about property and county insurance companies monetizing the little gadget they want you to put in your car. Sure. And they won't have to tell who's doing it, but they can sell that data to automotive manufacturers, to accessory manufacturers, to energy companies. There's all kinds of parameters that are collected by that. The key point was that everybody that's doing anything that's accumulating piles and piles of data can now be thinking about monetizing the data. And that was a real key. And then during her talk in the Fed's data, and here's someone else saying, wow, we don't have that lag. We can tell you what we delivered last week and what the economy's doing. And that's very, very, very cool. Yeah. Yeah, somebody asked me at the same dinner where I see the subject matter for the enterprise data will event being in 5 or 10 years. Which obviously is a bit beyond my predictive capability, but I like to think that we're focused on those types of issues and we are in talking about plumbing and integration. I mean, my sense is that over the past, we really have solid business conversations and positions and our CDO program is definitely in that category. Yeah, absolutely. Let me see. Well, let's go back to Michelin to talk, because I think this was really critical in setting the tone for the meeting. And albeit obvious statement, the forehead information in order to get a better read on the economy, obviously, on investment, did you have for Michelin's talk? The big takeaway for me was the acceptance of something that actually the Fed's been trying to do a long time, which is understand more and more about the economy and drive macro in the micro. I hope I don't sound too much of an economist here. I've used my degree in 35 years. And again, that big takeaway for me was that it's now pervasive. It's not just the Fed. But now that challenges organizations like the Fed to kick it up another notch. Right. Now that you have all of this available below, you're no longer, I remember doing research as a young financial analyst and going to the Federal Reserve library in St. Louis, because that was the only place to get some of this data. Now there is so many places, and there's so much input and so much factor in the decision. The decision process is what I took away really about. Decision processes, data, the concern data, or need data, are going to be so different and are literally changing by the year. This business of predictive analytics and having answers to questions you haven't asked, that's old. We had that in data mining in the 90s. I think there's whole different paradigms of decision making coming up. And you can see that with all of the, you know, from the way she was talking about how they were beginning to think. Quite a bit about the conversations that took place at CDO vision, John. What? From the broader conference. Because there were 900 people here this week. What other hot topics did you hear that were of interest to you? Well, now this is the, when you started our talk, you talked about conversations in the bar. So we have to qualify everything about to say that these were in the bar. Okay. And I was just listening. I wasn't... Are they more or less relevant if they take place at 11.30 over a... After several glasses of Cabernet. Right. But anyway, I was not participating. I was listening. I was being a good journalist. So we'll... And he said tongue-in-cheek. Yeah. All right. Okay. So general themes from the whole conference. That... And you hear this from people in the data architects for 20, 30 years. We had confirmation that we've gone mainstream. We've had confirmation that organizations are taking this seriously. And that we're real. But the second takeaway is in the next breath to have to say, oh my gosh, we're part of the business now. I don't know how to do that. Yeah. I'm a little bit nervous about this. There's also a lot of data architects now that are much more visible and have a bit more accountability than perhaps they're comfortable with now too. So there is a personal... Your personal interaction with the profession is changing. There was a lot of discussions about that. We even talked... It was the one day to model it. It's really ever been successful. Graham... I think there would be more than one. Come on. Well, you know, Graham's done well. Okay. But we were talking about how even the kind of modeling he did is reversed from what we're dealing with. Now, when he modeled, he was the only voice for enterprise-wide stuff. We could see the big picture back in the 80s and 90s modeling. Now, most modelers are recruited out of school, have a narrow applications picture, and you have to train them for the big picture. And the organization's gone upside down. And again, that was the big thing. The other one other thing, and I will wrap up because we had two questions here, is that the organization and the soft aspects, that was always something in the prior year someone would say, yeah, we really need to think about that. This year, the organization changed presentation or themed presentations were really highly attended. And a lot of interest and a lot of senior people in those. And a lot of people were talking about the organization, the human issues, and those types of changes too. Yeah. So we'll get to the questions in just a second. After I agree with you wholeheartedly about, again, the business alignment issue, I think that kept coming through, whether it was amongst the data strategists and CDOs, or take a look at a couple of the questions here. Off the top was, risk isn't just regulatory. Reputation, damage in your reputation thing. You need to consider some type of functional top data job out there. The other aspect, the other one easy is if there's any type of monetization you're considering in your data. The CEO said, wow, I heard that the competing trucking company was doing this and I want our trucking company to do that. You'd better get somebody that has the aspects, if not the title, some of the roles and functionality of a CDO because there's an awful lot of, you might end up with a lot more risk than you thought you had. Right. So you need somebody who can think strategically about the capabilities of the data that they might be, of course. Right. It's going to differ by the reason you thought you needed the CDO. Anyway, if I have to be general on that, it's going to be, go back to the reasons that Ursula and Jennifer were talking about why they were CDOs. There were a lot of general threads in that. And they end up being, someone has to oversee, just like the CFO oversees the integrity of your financial situation, someone needs to oversee the integrity of your data situation. That's really the common thread. Now, if an org, all different business models have different data situations, therefore. And that's why, therefore, a CDO, one comment we heard, it's CDOs are like snowflakes, no two are alike. I own ours a reason for that. And the reason is that no two organizations are exactly alike either. So I would say that the value is whatever the level, the importance of data is to your organization and whatever your market position is. The CDO is that assurance that you're going to not be deficient in that category. It might be deficient in your marketing, it might be deficient in your processes, or your financial management. But the CDO's job is to make sure at least data is not on that table of causing issues. Yeah. And in fact, if you want to make the comparison to other conventional assets, finance, people, property, etc., you want to have somebody in the role that's dedicated to optimizing the use of that. Did we talk at all about what CDOs think about the role of the CDO? Yeah. A little bit. Well, what we heard is, well, I don't think, maybe you heard something different. I didn't hear anything new. If they were highly regulated, they got a CDO because the CEO told somebody, I want somebody on that. And they ended up with a CDO. I think, although we've got good traction in the industry, we've got good traction in data management. I heard a lot of comments this week that in the State of the Union address, the term information management was mentioned for the first time recently. I do think that the absolute top executive line are still more concerned with the financial numbers, perhaps, market position and reputation, and data is still delegated somewhat, a minus one level there. But the CDOs are delegating the need or the request for, you know, I need fill in the blank here to tackle this issue, this problem, this opportunity, and that person is becoming the CDO. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to answer that question. I think there's some evidence that, I don't see much evidence, and obviously I'm not privy to all of these circumstances, but despite the churn in the role, I don't get the sense it's because all the CDOs are just being fired because they're doing a lousy job, and I think it's for other reasons related to the unique... I specifically... Glass is half empty, me. I said, okay, there's churn. Who's getting fired? And resoundingly, the group of us sitting in a circle said, no, people aren't getting fired, they're moving around. The number of new opportunities is multiplying so quickly, and most of the best of those jobs are looking for somebody who's served the role before. Many of the best of them, anyway. Yeah, and I think that's true. So you and I made a prediction in our research just a few months ago, John, that the rate of increase in the role of the CDO was going to basically double, the number of CDOs is going to double every year to year-and-a-half. It's kind of more of a lower equivalent. I'm not sure that we weren't off by a significant amount because I'm seeing two, three, four, five new appointments to the role of CDO every single day in the newsfeed that I get. I mean, whether that's a valid... I don't know, they're just the ones who are issuing press releases about it. And the range of organizations is just so diverse. Some of them are tiny, some are humongous. And so I think we might have underestimated that. Yeah, I think it's going to be growing. I also think that the question that that begs is that some of these CDOs are, like the CIO was back in the 80s, going to be asked to work miracles in very short periods of time that they can't do. Yeah. There is going to be an elevation of expectations here, and there'll be a hiccup from that as well. Yeah, I think this might even be a... making you hype code about it. Where is the CDO on the hype code? Well, it's climbing the left-hand edge of it right now. Right. We're still not at the pinnacle line. They have a catchy, witty turn for that. Right now I know all of our other things, for example, data. We drew this curve on a napkin at the aforementioned social occasion. And data management is coming out of the trough of disillusionment and climbing to a general acceptance mode here. So the CDOs, some are back on the ski slope with that. Okay. So there's a couple of questions we'll wrap up with. I think we can give relatively short answers to them. How many people are you seeing reporting to a CDO? Some of the departments were in a role under the... essentially has no budget and has nobody reporting to them. For the first one, she had nobody. Year two, she's got a $12 million budget. And she's talking about Charles Thomas at Wells Fargo. He has a budget of $500 million. Yeah. Can you believe that? Well, they gave Charles... I happened to know a little bit about that. They gave him everything. He got any BI or any reporting or anything in the whole organization moved over to him from AppDev and all the other areas. Okay. So it'd be interesting to affect him into this structure conversation again at some point. Yeah. We're talking about five to seven direct reports. Right. Depending on how they are, the number of people underneath really can explode. Wells Fargo is an interest. Wells Fargo's bank is like HSBC. There's lots and lots of lots of people in that office. Okay. And then the final one here, and I'll touch on this because it is topical about the role of the CDO in relation to... In our research previously, we found that CDOs need to be consulted more. For instance, with a fabulous... Great discussion. This is the review of the CDO vision forum. And thanks all of our attendees, of course, for participating. Just a reminder that I will be sending a follow-up email to all registrants by end of day Monday with links to the slides, the recording of the session, and any additional information. If you don't have it in your inbox by Tuesday morning, just give me a buzz and I will make sure and get that information to you. And thanks everyone for attending. Also, if you would like to see the video of the talks from CDO vision, those will be made available within the next two weeks, and I will get an email out to everybody letting you know as soon as those are available for purchase. Hope everyone has a great day and we will see you next month. Thanks, Shannon.