 Good evening everyone welcome to tonight's common council meeting for those of you watching at home Welcome for joining us before we start our meeting. We ask our city clerk to read the quotation of the week If you always operate from an unwavering sense of integrity, then you will always be able to chart the right path for your life Thank you Call the eighth regular meeting of the common council to order. Please call the roll Warren here I'm sorry Bowen here, oh excuse Serta Gisha excuse Hannah here Heidemann Kittleson Clowness Manny excuse Meyer Montemayor Rindflage Ryan Vanderveel for Hasselt and Wongamon 13 present warmest present all McLean us Would you please lead us and pledge allegiance? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God Indivisible with liberty and justice for all Thank You all McLean us Minutes approval the minutes president Hannah. Thank You mr. Mayor I would make a motion to approve the minutes second motion and second under discussion There being none all in favor say aye any opposed Motion carries minutes are approved next item on the agenda's public forum Adam City clerk Thank You first on the list would be Kathy Schnurr Kathy if you could come up to the front podium, please and Kathy can you give me your home address, please? Okay? It's 1030 South 9th Street. Sheboygan, Wisconsin And you will have five minutes Okay, I came tonight to address the council about the parking situation. We have near 9th in Indiana I understand when Commerce Street was abandoned that wasn't a problem because you need that for development and South 9th Street was abandoned for What would they call it a pedestrian walkway? But what that did is it left our area in a bad shape as far as the parking goes When you're coming down 9th Street cars have to do three-point turns Into the Highland house and back out We've got some ice coming down the street that once they get in there. There's nowhere from to go They they they're headed rates, you know heading north. They can't go anywhere They have to go into the Highland house and come around or try to back out onto Indiana Avenue So that's a major concern there The high the railroad property behind these properties is about 360 feet long from 9th Street to 10th Street and approximately maybe a hundred feet wide I think the city should take a look at possibly purchasing that property and making it a public parking place Not just for one developer to own so not to sell it off to any one person To keep it as a public parking for the residents and the visitors to the area When the Highland house was put in they did say that they'd be good neighbors and share the parking with us Well, then the nope then the Highland house parking only signs went up and I understand that because their parking lot is full with their own business The overflow parks out onto the public streets and we have no parking for our customers We have people parking all the way up on 12th and Indiana and walking down Which is fine in the summertime, but when the winter comes it's going to be a definite problem So in order not to have any fighting or bickering in the neighborhood over parking the area behind these properties Would be the key place to have a public parking spot and I Know already that the title work has been ordered on these properties They're getting the fair market values on them And if the public well then someone told me that the city is not interested in owning a Parking lot well if that's the case, then I think it should be left up to the owners of the lots that are lots seven through twelve on North ninth, which would be lots Well, they call it plot 12 we own the south ends of these plots The railroad right away is the north end of these plots Then it possibly sell it back to us the neighbors and then maybe we can get together and put in a parking lot ourselves But then we would have then it would just be a big mismatch because some people on 22 feet 33 feet You know 50 feet I think the only logical thing would be for the city to put it in or sell it back to us You know, I don't know how the city would Would look at that, but I heard that Steve Schmidt had approached the city also About this being a public parking spot And I just hate to see any one developer or two developers take control over the parking And then we'll see no parking signs being put up again You know, everybody's intention is good in the beginning But then when they find out they need all of it, then it leads everybody else out in the cold I mean the development that's going on down there is wonderful. The only concern is this parking situation Thank You Kathy Next would be Joanne Scribner And Joanne, can I have your home address, please three Seneca Trail Sheboygan, Wisconsin Okay, and you will have five minutes Number one when I was here on June 4th I shared my harbor taxi work scenario of June 3rd with you Here is my update on Tuesday June 26 around 4 o'clock p.m I received my termination of employment from Harbor Taxi Complaints were as follows customer complained about preaching your religion to them being late for work Unable to find you when you should be working no radio contact with you Hanging a sign on dash of taxi without permission Stating that customers were not allowed to swear while you were drove taxi When asked by customers to turn your radio down or turn the station you turned it up Dispatchers complaining you were late for picking up time orders Not helping customers with doors or packages as stated in handbook. I Don't believe that all these complaints were true of me or if they were true It wasn't that I consistently did these wrong things I did put up with a lot of swearing in the cab including the F word Without saying anything at all to the offending customers in the year and 11 months that I did drive for Harbor Taxi Another customer complaint listed on the back of the schedule for a week July 1st through July 7th 2007 said this Driver telling me I can't swear in the taxi. Come on. It is a taxi and I am paying you Does the city of Sheboygan have a code of ethics for language and behavior in taxi cabs, which is a public place? Number two, I still don't understand whether Sheboygan the fire department should take over a city ambulance service when Orange Cross has What am I right seven? Ambulances already in place in different areas of the city at the ready Since Orange Cross is a private organization. We don't pay taxes to them is my understanding And we don't have to buy or lease ambulances because Orange Cross already has them Number three. I am so glad that Sheridan Park is still a neighborhood park not the site for the new police station The fourth fest picnic at Sheridan Park on July 4th was awesome Fun for kids and adults and a lot of hot dogs snacks and sodas were consumed by those at the picnic Thank you friends of Sheboygan parks Number four, I don't know when the Sheboygan zoo was first established, but it was active in the 1950s 1960s and early 1970s Unfortunately, the zoo had to be disbanded My husband Gary and I have been to the Columbus Zoo Miami Zoo Indianapolis Zoo Brookfield Zoo in Chicago a line Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates Zoo Minnesota Zoo in Minneapolis, Milwaukee County Zoo Racine Zoo free man to walk zoo free new zoo in Green Bay free Como Park Zoo in St. Paul free and Sheboygan Zoo free Gary and Joanne Scrivener would love to see a zoo in Sheboygan again We would love to spearhead this effort along with your help and the help of many other people Call us Thank you very much. Thank you Next would be Lee Montemay or and Lee can I have your home address, please 1015 Logan and that's in the city And you will have five minutes sir. Thank you Mayor council members, thank you for granting me the time to express my concerns and views Last council meeting of July 2nd of 07. I was very disappointed that some of our council members Did not follow what they said a short three months ago because the department Went over a budget in the past It's not a valid reason to do it again This is not solving the problem. You're merely passing it on for someone else to pass and solve This council needs to follow our industry's leaders model It says we do what we say And then stick to it a zero percent budget levy starts with the department head Their leadership is needed in that department to accomplish the common goal of a no-tax increase To increase that zero percent budget for one department and not another may be a reflection of ineffective leadership and favoritism and a problem that will continue to grow This is not acceptable and I urge you to correct this I offer my concerns and input as a constructive criticism and nothing else My next concern when the fire department's proposal and presentation to take over the city ambulance service I too like a number of other citizens had questions regarding to take an over this task first as a city function My question compelled me to research this topic and the history of the ambulance service. I Started my research with the history of how this service was privatized in 1989 because up until that time the police department ran the ambulance service in 1988 the state of Wisconsin mandated that our city ambulance be upgraded from a basic EMT To an EMT I this meant that the city Would have to educate about 63 police officers at a critical budget time a citizens advisory Referendum was held and it voted two to one to continue the ambulance service by the city Our leaders at that time chose to privatize the service Our police and fire departments were not prepared to handle more than basic service To continue the service The taxpayers of this city would had to incur the full educational cost to educate those employees To private to privatize came to a great deal of discussion and debate and eventually a Four-year contract for the service went to Curtis medical service The Curtis company had trouble keeping his contractual obligation within the time limit set forth in the contract and the refusal By a local hospital to name a medical director to supervise the service as required by the state This led to the cancellation of the Curtis's contract and orange cross was granted a 90-day contract to finish the year 1989 These contracts were later extended to 2007 The fire department had its leadership wisely upgraded their qualifications requirements So that their personnel are fully educated experienced by fighter slash paramedic and first responders This ladies and gentlemen was done without any cost to the city This was done by natural attrition and replacement requirements This department seems to be well prepared to take over the ambulance service in the city and provide much needed revenue For the Sheboygan taxpayer at a very low investment The company doing the service at the present time is a 501 C3 company which means they do not pay any taxes or franchise fees to the city They are a tax exempt organization and they do not produce any revenue for our city taxpayers The notion that the fire department will be driving a private business out of business is not accurate at all They can continue to be a successful company Working together with our fire department just as they did When the police department ran the city of ambulance service, but they will no longer do it as a monopoly. I Hope my research will answer the questions and concerns about the ambulance service brought being brought in house I am convinced that this service will be a benefit to our city and I congratulate the Sheboygan fire department for the incentive to bring in revenues to our taxpayer citizens The can do of our air the cat that can do attitude of our firemen is a reflection of that department's leadership and our Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you Last on the list would be Milton storm Milton would you give me your home address, please? Yes My home address is 1736 Marvin court in the corner of sock trail road and I've opened Owned that home for 41 years now and my phone number is for I don't need that Well, I am on the do-call list and I expect people to come there you go. You will have five minutes, sir I'll take a roll call. We'll do in case I go over. I Want to thank the kind lady in the city clerk's office who gave me this opportunity to speak? I come here with a heavy heart and I want to and I would say maybe a Sadness a little on my computer brain brain Probably that is because I blame it for my own self and imposed egotism Trying to be a spiritual and motivation speaker rather than addressing one specific issue I had to bring up old news, but we learned from the past. We're here today and that will decide what we do in the future I was discussing with my twin brother here some time ago About the political climate and the diversity in Washington, D.C. He gave me a quote from Thomas Jefferson a Democrat And I quote He says he who says very little or nothing at all is nearer to the truth than he who makes mistakes errors and false accusations I Have here a Article that appeared on the front page of the show they should boy can press and it's from March 10 My bike vocals March 10th of 2000 or sec 50 cents as his mayor council asked DA to charge ex-Alderman Bonnet I Don't think that's 50 cents. It's about the quarter for This certainly was a waste of taxpayers money I can only sympathize with Alderman Bonnet and his family and Susan Hunley how they were so falsely and wrongly accused Why is the leadership in some older person so? Uncompassionately dividing the good citizens of this community Silence is golden. You have to earn silence There's a time to speak and there's a time to listen Some men and women like myself. We do nothing but talk Although I generally try to speak There are also some common council members here I think they do a lot of talking but then there are a few young ladies who can speak better that some of us men can talk And that happens to be my council representative and that will require a hug I've been a member of NAD neighbors against drugs from the beginning. I'll be walking in the national night out Tuesday August 7th. I'm very dedicated to the community policing unit There's no need for us to roll the dice to see if we can come up with 175 thousand dollars I went to play in my water bill and I found out there was a sewer base charge I asked them what that was for and they said that was set by the common council And what did I think it's used for is for fire protection and also for the public works department Well, that gave me a brainstorm idea There are about approximately 27 000 boaters here in the Sheboygan area And I'm out the last election on about seven thousand five hundred voted Well, if I Sessed a thirty dollar a year fee To these voters per capita. I could generate at least about seven hundred ten thousand dollars for my community policing department now if a Voter does not have a valid reason for not voting then I would have access another voluntary five dollars That would give me another seventy thousand now. I'm almost close to eight hundred thousand dollars Wait until when I write that cockamamie idea in the Sheboygan press I think that Richard Hartman and Ernest Kepler june will fire back at me Some of the money could be used for hiring five more or 10 more police officers And that maybe might even get the people to the polls and we could maybe even hire an administrator Accountant that could take care of these funds Might even be some money left over so that we could give Chuck Adams a little pay raise here in Sheboygan I had got friend of a large ceo of a manufacturing company in Sheboygan that does not exist He wrote a book and in with that he made us this statement A person is three people The person you think you are The person everybody else thinks you are and the person that you really are in the eyes of god That last person Some day before my time is up I may yet get to be It is by the grace of god that we are saved Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me I once was lost but now I'm found milk. Would you like the extra minute? I'm sorry Well, I'll be done in a minute. I'll go ahead. Can we take a roll call vote? We don't need that go ahead. Okay I once was lost but now I'm found Was blind but now I see We need to communicate more effectively among ourselves face to face not behind closed doors and in secret places Just mention my name in Sheboygan. It's melt and storm. It's a great little town in the world Thank you, Mel. That is it I want to thank all these citizens who addressed the council tonight your input is valuable to us And miss schnoer just wanted to point out that we are looking into that Situation there it's not falling on deaf ears. It just works a little slow, but we are working on it Next item on the agenda notice a notice of hearing on the vacation and discontinuance of the east west Alley between north 7th street and north 8th street and between anterior avenue and niagara avenue We also have a hearing for the proposed assessments for water lateral replacements in niagara avenue from north fourth To north fifth. Is there anyone here that would like to address the council with respect to any of those hearings? Is there anyone that would like to address the council? Is there anyone President hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor. I would make a motion to close the hearing Motion in second to close hearings any discussion There is none all in favor say aye Any opposed motion carries hearings are closed Next item is consent agenda 8 1 through 8 20 president hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor I would move that All our items be accepted and placed on file and all rc's accepted and adopted second motion and second under discussion There'll be a non. Please call the roll. Oh, excuse me all women replace Thank you, your honor Not for separate vote, but just discussion on number eight nine Referral from public protection safety regarding the intersection of weeding creek road and okay The discussion came across within public works of a design that ryan sasma had found for a Solar powered flashing yellow light that we can highlight either the speed or the fact there's an intersection coming up ahead The cost is is relatively minimal surprisingly on these and the reusable So at the time that the intersection is redone we can reuse these items somewhere else Chairman of the community of silence van will and I will work on a letter to the county One because it is their land that we're putting that The we would like to put that light spot on there and quite frankly it doesn't do enough The intersection needs to be done and needs to be done quickly And we'd ask that the county when they receive this letter take it seriously Allow us to put the signs there and quite frankly assist us in In putting those up there and by that I mean paying the bill with us So that it's spread out through all the county taxpayers in addition take a look at that intersection I think while it highlights the data's intersection. It does nothing for the real problem, which is the northbound When you're going northbound on okay to taking a Right on east weeding creek There's a churn lane there that people often use as a passing lane To get our own people are trying to go west that's the problem right there That's where the intersection that probably happens So I urge the county and see if we're allowed to take a very serious look at this We are not done with this by any stretch of the imagination Um, I will not be satisfied until something is done to stabilize this intersection Thank you. Thank you all Anybody else I'm turning the clean. Thank you your honor. I have a question of a person van der wheel on 8-8 the By public protection safety recommending the communication be placed on file to draft the proper ordinance It's urgent to just ain't she aware of what the proper ordinance Intent is by the committee So I just the only knowledge I have of this is just reading the committee's report here and it's not really clear what the the intent is as far as committee's wishes on The proper ordinance to be drawn Oh my man will Thank you, honor in the area We're extending the the no parking area. No parking zone and I'll get with Sergeant Tezansky and and uh, okay and bring something to console with that Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my man will uh, madam see clerk Um, just to answer Attorney McLean if you look I believe this is the ordinance that belongs with that at 8-50 Sergeant Tezansky did provide me with very detail to create the ordinance. So that's what we did So I think we're okay. Okay Collin marine flesh She covered my point. Thank you for me. She covered my point. Thank you. Thank you. Anything else There being none. Let's call the roll Boren Serta Hannah Heidemann Kittleson Cleonis Meyer Montemayor Rinfleshe Ryan Vanderwheel for Hasselt and Wongamon 13 eyes motion carries communications and petitions 821 through 825 to be referred Alderman Montemayor you went first Thank you, your honor on Communication number 823 from mr. Matia. I moved to file And at the same time I want to challenge the state and the federal legislators to deal with this issue We need some national uniformity Thank you. I want the mayor and I believe president Hannah second second There's a motion in the second file 823 under discussion There being none All in favor say aye Any opposed Motion carries Thank you very much. Moving on report of officers two 826 lies over to august 20th To be referred 827 through 836 Resolutions introduced three Are we okay with the pace? 837 by Alderman Hannah authorizing the redemption of 3,580,000 dollars general obligation refunding bonds dated march 1st 1995 president Hannah I moved that the resolution be put upon its passage Motion in second to put 837 upon its passage under discussion There being none, please call the roll Serta Hannah Heidemann Kittleson Clayunas Meyer Montemayor Rindflash Ryan Vanderwheel for hassled Wongamon Ann Warren 13 eyes motion carries 838 by Alderman Hannah requesting the county of Sheboygan to combine its communication center with the city of Sheboygan And that the combined communication center be located in the city of Sheboygan's due police station president Hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor At first I need to make a motion to suspend Is there a second to that second any objections? They're being on please proceed. I would like to hold on. We got over my amendment May I ask the reason for the suspension of the rules, please? President Hannah He certainly can I am looking forward to to moving this ahead to the county as soon as possible because we're about to begin construction on our police station Thank you president Hannah Did you make the motion to most question? I'd like to make a motion that would be resolution to be put upon its passage Second motion and second to put 838 upon its passage under discussion I'll only play with this Thank you, your honor. I just had a question about who would be negotiating What groups would be negotiating on this arrangement? Alderman, Alderman Van Der Wiel Um, I don't know that answer. I was going to make a difference. Okay Did you still want to speak? Yes. Okay, I'll Alderman Van Der Wiel Thank you, your honor. I'm speaking about the resolution Uh, as a member of the shared service committee, I always look at Try to look at things with an open mind Shared dispatch was no different I believe that a consolidated dispatch can work when done the right way The shared service committee and the subcommittee tries with looking into this manner have done a great job They have taken the time to look at all aspects of a combined dispatch center and invest other counties for their opinions After listening to several counties that came and gave the shared service committee a presentation The majority of them expressed that doing it right the first time is essential I believe that in order for this to be successful We need to build the combined dispatch center on a neutral site Building the center next to the new police station would be doing doing it the wrong way David Sleeter from rock county pointed out in his presentation that perception can be reality In other words, if the dispatch center is built next to the shaboyan police department It will give the perception that the shaboyan police are dominating the center Once the perception is established, it can be almost impossible to overcome it If the city and county are not willing to commit the necessary funds in order to combine Dispatch the right way Then we shouldn't do it at all Because in the end we will spend money fixing what we have failed to fund properly in the first place Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Paul McLean, I believe that the appropriate body to negotiate that would be the city county shared services committee members And if at some point they decide they need to come back to the council for guidance I could do that. Would you prefer would you feel better if that was included in the I think um What concerns me is what was brought up last council meeting is that um, how are we going to be Sharing equitably as much as possible and the cost of this since it's going to be attached to a building that will If we go through with this attached to a building that we're already building Um, will we be paying for it twice? And it was one question and the other thing is the perception, you know, is this the shabuigan police department's Department or you know, it's it's dispatch is done by the police department will the county in some way You know have some resentment or some feelings as if it's not equal I just I have some hesitation like alderman boundary real has about how it's going to be perceived and Negotiations have to be really open and fair For the city of shabuigan also to support it. I think in a way that's going to make it so that it's everybody's and not just ours twice Excellent point alderman cleanness Alderman wagerman your next sir Thank you your honor I listened to the presentation we received on the combination of the two Units and for the life of me, I can't see the advantage to it I have a bit of advantage over everybody in this room and that I worked in that room many many hours myself In the past the officers used to work in that room I talked to some of the communications operators And there have a great deal of reservations a lot of unanswered questions here yet And I'm afraid that We're trying to fix something that's not broke again We have a system that's functioning fairly well. There's very few problems down there Perhaps they're a little bit crowded. They're a little bit crowded at the sheriff's department But we're taking two units and trying to put them together And mr. Maples had said there's a very little difference between city and county policing less totally wrong The difference is enormous You'd have a great deal of difficulty taking city police officers and putting them to work in the county and vice versa And the same thing stands true for the communication center. There's a great deal of dispatch difficulties He uh The thing that bothered me the most was a great over simplification That he made that this was all going to be terribly easy that everything was going to go one two three And it was going to work. It hasn't in other areas as uh Lieutenant rinefield pointed out we can look at perhaps a span of 10 years Where it takes for all these things to meld together and do we really need to do this Even the report that we received said there was very little possibility that it was going to be a money saving venture So then why are we doing it? This is a difficult difficult procedure to do The dispatch priorities for the county are different than the city We have something like 20 some or 20 maybe 25 different fire departments out there that have to be brought together And have to be have the same protocol for dispatching We have uh, mr. Maples said it was only two Entities that we had to consider Well, we have shabuigan. We have shabuigan falls. We have plymouth. We have choler and they do Some dispatching themselves on occasion and they have their own radio systems We have to bring this all together. So I see nothing but problems involved in this And if somebody could tell me where why we should do this Will it save us money? Will it give us an advantage? Will it improve performance? And as alderman van der will said if we can't do it right, let's not do it, you know, let's let's not Fix something that's not broke. Thank you Thank you alderman wagerman next blink and we have alderman rind flash Thank you, mr. Mayor Back to the speaker of alderman claw you and us the issue did come up I thought a lot about what shared services meant means to me and We're looking at cost savings. We're all a little bit surprised that actually we need to hire additional people To have a good backup on this one. We're not actually saving any employment costs So what how does the shared services in this aspect really cover? To means can be the cost if the county is looking at ways that they can save money We can work with them But the county government which has all the county taxpayers included in that Should be in my mind the paying body for this we pay our county taxes to work of that But it would be just as equal for a city residents as it would be for the county residents I think that's the ideal of shared services. Everyone pays their fair share So I would be interested and if someone would second that I make a motion to amend the resolution and add With understanding that Negotiation should be based upon the county paying for the hard cost in addition to All of the personnel cost So we're spreading across the taxpayers there's a motion to amend and second catch the amendment Go ahead again. Okay I guess take the the period off of possible make that a comma and then with the understanding That is our intent to have the county pay for all the construction costs As well as Employment costs community source costs spread through spread across the county The entire county entirely that way each taxpayer This is not in the language, but each taxpayers only paying ones. Thank you. I'll remember on the amendment only there are some lights blinking from the original motion We're going to entertain Discussion or debate on the amendment only if there is there anyone that would like to do that otherwise We'll call the vote could I just ask who's seconded that was that alderman hannah present hannah Okay This is on the amendment hannah item in kittleson clay unis meyer montemayor rinflash ryan vander wheel for hassled longamen boron and serda 12 eyes 1 no Motion carries on the on the uh motion is amended. I need a motion to Pass as amended somebody want to make that? There's second second under discussion on the motion as amended Do we have alderman ryan first sir? Thank you, mr. Mayer um You know shared services is something that we've been It's kind of been an elusive concept For many years between the city and the county And this is one thing that at least we may be getting close on I think it deserves further exploration I think it needs to go to the county to let them kick it around The city's done a lot of work on it city county shared services have done a lot of work on it I think it now needs to go to the county board And let and let's get the county board's true opinion on shared services and what they mean for the city and what they mean for the county By no means does this mean that this council all of a sudden is said this is you know We'll leave it up to the county and we're going to agree with that Of course everything comes back to the council for approval It's just I would like to uh and you know see what the county does with this so therefore You know, I think this is a good idea. It's a good start If it is something that indeed is spread across all taxpayers countywide instead of just uh City taxpayers. It could be a great thing. Thank you. Thank you laman ryan vice president boron Thank you, your honor I have a little bit of trepidation with just sending this over with you know Recommending the city police station the new city police station. However The report shows that it's the most economic economically feasible So I I kind of lean that way, but I hope that it's also open for discussion To possibly having a separate a separate department as they do in jainesville But the thing we have to remember about rock county and I saw that communication center last year Is that they had to bring together about 20 municipalities? Rather than just the city of shabuagan and the county and yes, we do have a little A little bit in the outlying areas, but our I don't believe ours is Nearly the obstacles to overcome That they did down in rock county, but I also think that the possibility of adding on that 800 square foot Over at the sheriff's department is also a possibility So I would like to see negotiation that it not that it's absolutely Carbed in stone that it has to be in the police department But I but I lean that way because the report shows that it is the most economically feasible. Thank you Thank you, vice president boron alderman sarda Thank you, your honor First I'd like to mention that I commend all their percent of ryan flushes amendment. Um I think we just have to be careful that we're not approving a concept Because given that this council has been um told that we're busy business minded I would like to see a more concrete Proposal I I see one here sitting on my desk something that's outlined far too often We're approving concepts things that sound good and but I'm looking at more of the mechanics the feasibilities One of the things mentioned tonight was the staffing taking a look at this proposal It talks about and far too often our departments are are charged with being too top heavy But yet the proposal outlines this increasing now more supervisors that right now currently both the county and shabuagan have none My biggest concern has always been if we're asking The staff the employees to take on more than they can choose to And and we live in this in this age where we're always as employees being asked to do far more Than what we're capable of doing because we're downsizing constantly But is this an area where we want to compromise that we're talking about lifelines These these dispatchers are they're a lifeline not only to the officers, but this is citizens So i'm not saying that I don't support the concept. I think it's something that we can explore But I think we can do better as a council I think what we could do is put our best foot forward to the county. Let's let's look professional Let's itemize these things. Let's really put this out there I maybe submit a proposal to them to get their opinion right now this document. It's not saying that It's an all or nothing again So i'm only voting against it again because of I would think just like when you purchase a home You have a good faith estimate everything's itemized and I think that's what we can present to the county So I approve in terms of the concept exploring it, but I'm not going to support the resolution. Thank you Thank you almserda alman one player Thank you your honor I think alderman lion said it very well that this should go to the county and let them Look at it talk about it and the shared service committee and the subcommittee are there To talk about it and they have numbers and I think It's not for us to decide tonight whether to do this or not I think it's for us to decide if we want the county to look at our proposal thank you Hold my grand flesh. Thank you. My last points on this would be I agree with alderman. That's my or To me it's almost a test case You know, we hear a lot about the county wanting to share services with us and wanting to work with us and we seem to make Overtures to this and then we don't get anything The prime example is the fact that the city had to buy county land for the police station Land that we as taxpayers already own I've talked about this before And you know bring it up again, and I know the understanding is well We're only a portion of the county but it's land. They weren't using any way But yet we had to buy it if they want to use our police station which we bought for dispatch I say that's fine We'll sell that area to them for the cost that we had to buy the land from them in the first place And I think that's a good start Um to to see how serious they are about working with this But at least if we're looking at spreading this cost over every taxpayer that tells me that they are serious If they don't come back with that conclusion that I see clearly They want to keep riding the backs of the shulwagin taxpayers one more time Their uh concept of shared service has been around for many many years as all of you are aware of But in my mind and I think older men one way or another have expressed the same sentiment And that is that shared services is too prong Sharing the service and sharing the cost I've always joked that I'll gladly share anything with anybody if I don't have to pick up the tab for it And then this is what we have to be very careful And as alderman cliudas said which was an excellent point is we have to be careful When we talk about the county part and the city part because the county already levies 13 and a half million dollars off our backs In addition to that they levy off the other villages towns And cities And they do that based on their population, etc So they they collect they levy 44 million dollars off all of us. So we're all lumped on So for us to come back and say now we're going to pay another portion That's not right. I mean you're not you're not at the same field So the the points that are being made are excellent Alderman serda makes a good point too about the concept versus a package And I think that's what's we're just going it's going to city county shared services So they could put the package together send it to us send it to the county board and say is this where you want to go And I think that would be the next excellent step to take But I I think you made a great point there is we need to be careful that we distinguish and be mindful of a concept versus a proposal or package in its entirety anything else All in the motion as amended 838 please call the row Heidemann Kittleson Clioness Meyer Montemayor Rindflash Ryan Vanderwheel Verhaselt Wongerman Boran Serda Hannah Ten eyes three nose Motion carries 839. We are going to hold for 848. Please make that notation 840 we will hold for 847. Please make that notation 841 and 42 lies over 843 and 44 to be referred Report of committee 5 845 to be referred Report of committee 6 846 President hannah Thank you, mr. Meyer. I would make a motion to file that document Motion and second to file 846 That issue has been dealt with before Any discussion on that? All in favor say aye Any opposed? Motion carries Report of committees 7 847 by the marina and harbor committee Recommend an approval of the agreement between the city of sheboygan and skipper marine development incorporated for management and operation of south pier seawall dockage And we will take that plus 840 president hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor. I think first I need to make a motion to suspend Second motion to second span. Is there any objection? Jackson There's a timing issue. I think we need to that contract needs to be in place by the end of july Has this gone through finance yet? Okay, I will object then and ask to be referred to finance There's an objection although there was a motion and second so we need to call the roll On the objection all in ryan I too have a question your honor Having to settle this out by the end of july I take it we are expecting some large yachts coming in No, it's a contract. It's simply on the contract for skipper butts So it's it's not like we would be turning away any business if it if we did not spell the words Thank you Trying to clean thank you your honor just As a comment, it's a contract for Floating season 2007 so the longer we go into 2007 you know the less impact it's really going to have It's skipper bud currently at least Verbally has been told that if some large boat is looking at coming in to tie up along the seawall that They should contact skipper bud skipper bud will work with them because they've got the marine radios and so forth So you should be aware of that that's I don't know that any boats have come in that have tied along the seawall but That's what we've told skipper marine least informally until the contract is acted on by the council one way or another but You know, it's not absolutely essential that you enter into it tonight versus next council meeting, but As I say it is just for this boating season so If you don't act on it till october it's going to be Irrelevant Okay Anything else on the motion to suspend and we need 12 votes Um, and I need to know who's second it is to suspend all my vice president born No, who's who's who's second on I just made the second on the suspension Yes All my second sorry about that In a suspension we would need this 11 okay Okay, this is to suspend and I vote would be to suspend Kittleson Clowness Meyer Montemay or Rin Flesch Ryan Vanderwheel for hassled Wongamon Boran Serta Hanna Heidemann Nine eyes four nose Motion fails So we will refer that if no one has any objections to finance Both of the documents both documents on the rules be 847 and 840 Any objections to prefer to finance there is none we will move on 848 by public works Recommend an intern into contract with great lakes tv seal incorporated for cleaning of the sanitary sewer on Broden drive Which is partially filled with sand and debris almond Meyer and we're taking 848 and 839. Thank you ronner. I Move that the rc be accepted and adopted and the resolution be put upon its passage Motion and second under discussion Alderman clowness Thank you ronner. Yeah, where does this money come from? Is this something that's in the budget for Regular expenses that we have to incur is something unusual Okay, thank you. Thank you There being no more discussion. Please call the roll Meyer Montemay or Rindflash ryan vander wheel Brassel wangaman boran surda Hannah Heidemann kittleson And clowness 13 eyes motion carries 849 to be referred president hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor. I'd like to suspend the rules on this one Motion second any objection There is none please proceed Alderman in place. I'm sorry to do this again, but I guess what is the The reason for suspension well, I'd like to move in it to accept and adopt so that the individual committees can start to work on the item I suggestions thank you, and the Resolution would actually be to refer various items to various committees. Is that correct? Yes, sir We're not actually approving the result the the idea is yet. No, okay. I have no objection Jackson Then I need a motion Oh, sorry. Hold on. Sorry vice president boran Thank you your honor. I just wanted to add an amendment One more bullet point that I intended on doing in committee that I that I'd slit my mind Is it appropriate time to do that now or? We don't amend reportive committees No, our reporter committees are not amendable. Okay. Thank you Thank you. Thank you, old one born vice president boran anything else on that. Otherwise I need a motion to To accept an adopt reporter committee President here. I would make a motion to accept and adopt the report Second motion and second under discussion There being none, please call the roll Montemay or Rin Flesch Ryan Thander wheel for hassled Wongamon boran Serta Hannah Heidemann Kittleson Clowness And Meyer Thirteen eyes motion carries ordinances introduced 10 850 and 850 850 51 and 52 lies over Oh Yes, I'm sorry president hannah 852 852 Can I suspend the rules on 852? Motion second any objection objection we will Take a vote on that any discussion on suspension of 852 Please call the roll Hold on, please All in serta Thank you honor because this has been such a contentious issue and I have supported this issue And I don't want to seem like I'm I'm giving favorites here. Is there a reason why we have to approve it tonight? Is there a timing issue? Thank you very much. The issue here is that the the chief And the fire and police commission. I think we need to give them clear direction. There was confusion on the The job descriptions and I think this clears that language up Thank you Thank you, your honor if I could ask chief listoski just to step up for a second I had a question of them on this because this was in salaries come up. It's here a few weeks ago a week and a half ago Thank you, your honor members of the council just to clarify on on this document 852 you've seen it I imagine But we're basically asking to add Firefighter paramedic into change firefighter. Are we continuing to hold on to a firefighter? Only position job description What we are looking at doing is Creating a job description for people who are acting in the position of firefighter paramedic It's not unlike other job descriptions that we have right now The table of organization change that we're looking at Is changing the the to of firefighters from 51 to 54 That reflects what was voted on at the committee meeting When the ambulance proposal was passed And then there was a fourth position that is a current position that's vacant. That was one of those four positions that was passed Right now of those 51 positions There's actually three job descriptions that fall under the scope of firefighter One is firefighter one is fire equipment operator and one is lead firefighter And dependent on which position you're in and what position you're assigned to that's the job description that fits you And that would be a similar Circumstance with this firefighter paramedic position when someone's working in a position where those qualifications are necessary That would be their job description I guess my question is we'll continue to have a firefighter only job description and job code At this time yes those individuals who either aren't interested or aren't qualified to be a firefighter slash paramedic That's correct Okay, and could you just in my concern is and we've talked about this in committee and I've talked to you on the side My concern is If we had the entire force someday convert to that firefighter paramedic that would automatically put an undue burden on the taxpayer At the same time maybe not necessarily needing 54 paramedic ready individuals So I guess my question on that is do you have a vision as to how many people you would see under each code job code in the future Five years from now as things as the dust settles on this Those Those numbers could vary depending on the scope of what we're doing as far as You know doing private transports doing city 911 doing areas outside the city The way a lot of other cities address this and there's different ways of doing it and it's Really counsel and and administrative driven is you can identify the amount of paramedics that you deem appropriate At any given time and say we're going to compensate this amount and some of this is negotiated some of it is by by You know resolution chief's discretion And then you can determine if as a chief if I want those people or i'm going to require those people to maintain their licensure that no longer ride on on the ambulances and some cities Based on the the cost factor think it's a good deal To have all their people trained to that level And it's a benefit to the community It gives great flexibility and how these staff and how they respond to emergencies And that's something like a city like Oshkosh has really Transformed from an ambulance service like we're starting now to a full department of paramedics. There's other cities that say We're only going to designate 18 personnel or 24 personnel to to this and we're not going to require anybody else to have licensure Beyond that and we can make that determination. We're looking at approximately Six personnel per shift plus plus You know backup for for vacations and all those other staffing issues that come up We're not at a point yet where we're even nearly close to that But I would think that we want to meet we want to bring in fire fire paramedics Because that's the the standard that's out there now. That's what what's appropriate for the fire service and if we want to Make adjustments on the back and as far as how many licensures we want people to hold in that we would do that Based on everything that you and this is something you've been working on for years and years and years And it just got past year the spring the summer But I'm based on what you know Looking at the city proper ruling out ticking on any other ambulance service outside the city Where would you put that number and we've talked 18 19 is the mathematical number that you need to cover What would you need of those 54 would and I'm not holding you to a number But I'm just trying to get my head around is that number 30 40 45 Rough roughly speaking. I I could say that you know in order to run the service as As we proposed it You know we can run it with 24 you know half of our firefighting force roughly But I don't know that there's an advantage necessarily to do that There's there's some benefit maintaining people at licensure and we have to weigh the the cost factor as far as Keeping people on and keeping them licensed and having having People paid up front to do that and we're going to be looking at that as far as our negotiated aspect of this and And we'll be very sensitive to that All right Thank you, mr. Mayor Chief it seems to me You know if you have the majority of your staff that is that is licensed as as firefighter paramedics If you have somebody that is licensed firefighter paramedic and they are out there are on Shift as a operator and not operating in the capacity of a paramedic What is the department's intentions as far as I know it probably has to be worked out with the union etc Etc. Is it possible to pay that person even though they are licensed as A firefighter paramedic as an operator at that point are there two different pay scales or is it based upon simply the license It can be based on whatever we determine it is through negotiations But what some people do is they pay for the seat That is if somebody is riding the ambulance they keep get paid a certain amount And they would get paid a lesser amount if we choose to do that to maintain licensure You know, it's all over the map as far as every city does a little bit different, but obviously There's a benefit for people maintaining their licensure for the city. It gives us flexibility. It'll be allow us to Have more depth in the system in the future. It allows you to cover More calls and backup calls without Utilizing utilizing overtime and have to bring in paramedics So it gives you more flexibility have more licensed people and if you if you can arrange a system where Where you're paying them to be in the seat or when they're acting in those positions That's the most efficient that was going to be my point It seems to be it seems to make a lot more sense to have more licensed people Rather than to run into a situation where you don't have enough licensed people and you're paying overtime Because you only have x amount of people Absolutely. Thank you. And if I could add One of the reasons for a suspension that that we're asking for and attorney mclean and President hannah are aware of this is the police and fire commission Is looking for that clear direction so we can move process with the forward with the hiring process It's a very lengthy process time consuming and there's a lot of steps in it And they're at a point where they don't want to move forward with it Because there were some they believe some ambiguity between What was the wording of the Resolution and and what our intent was so this would clarify that and allow that process to move forward Thank you. Oh, vice president board Thank you, mr. Chairman Chief you had mentioned something just a little earlier that you said you were going to be able to get by with six per shift Uh, I thought we were going to be Staffing three ambulances 24 seven So how that wouldn't that be uh nine per shift That would be uh Yeah, three ambulance six six and then 18 per day. Is that correct? No six per shift six per shift times three times three shifts. That would be 18 No, our shifts are 24 hour shifts. Okay 24 hour shifts. Okay. The other the other concern I have Is that according to the the document here? It says that the the fire the the fire chief with uh, the fire chief will have a discretion In filling these positions Uh, is this usurping some of the authority of the fire the fire and police commission? I guess that would be a question for attorney mclean The way I would read it hold on one is that the The council sets the table of organization what this is saying is Within the chief's prerogative as to whether firefighter or fire firefighter paramedic that you could Hire one or the other, you know within that set Limit by the council but uh, no that's the the poison fire commission Does the hiring the new hiring but They don't establish What the positions are to be filled that's the council's Position you create the table of organization as to what the jobs are They do the process to take the politics out of the hiring process. That's the concept Okay, and then another question Uh You were also mentioning that some of this has yet to be negotiated Uh, shouldn't some of this have been negotiated ahead of time because now If it's subject to negotiation We really don't know how all of these people are going to be end up being paid You know are they on the ambulance or are they a firefighter? Is this has yet to be negotiated? We really don't know what the true costs are going to be Initially, we we laid out a framework of of what could be expected Based on the fact that We did not want to lock the city into a negotiated position by resolution We did not specifically identify that What that was although we did get an agreement from or at least a verbal agreement from From the local that they were going to work and and work with us in an appropriate way And I believe that will happen. I believe the council will see that and Like I said, there were good reasons why that wasn't specifically identified in the The proposal because it does compromise our negotiating position if if you identify a certain number in advance in negotiations and that was Recommended to me from human resources and and other sources here Yeah, I would like to see I would like to see The the fire department broken down in two ways and that is whatever the number is whether it's 18 or if you need 24 Paramedic slash firefighters. I would like to see that distinct from the number from the from the number of firefighters And I I really don't see the value and over a period of time Through through hiring attrition, whatever the case may be that eventually if you've got 54 or 55 staff members and they're all Paramedic slash firefighters When it comes up for new new negotiations, this is going to end up costing the taxpayers a lot more money than having two separate categories of fireman paramedic Or just firefighters. So Just the way this is right now. I can't support it because I feel in the future It's going to be a huge huge burden on the taxpayers. Thank you Thank you, my president born chief. Thank you very much Hold on Thank you chief. I'll explain us Thank you your honor. I just had a question about the job description that was listed here Is this a job description that will be retroactive to those who are presently firefighters and paramedics trained? Firefighters and paramedics. Maybe I guess maybe I should have asked Hold on rehearsal your chair. I'm sorry. Will this be something that uh In other words a person who's a fire a fireman and paramedic right now He'll be handed this new job description and said This is your new job description sign it only I'm sorry only if they meet the qualifications Or if they're asked to meet the qualifications and certifications by chief staske Okay, and this would also be the new job description for a new hire correct, okay because on Their third page of it on top. I have a little bit of question about and this has always been my issue with this whole thing Number 19 will complete and maintain appropriate minimum certification and licensure is necessary for a signed position Will complete in other words. They may not even have it at the time The you know the correct qualifications or certifications. Um at the time they signed this so Again, we're putting people and saying, you know, you can have a job just get qualified later For it. I you know, I think if you hire a person they should have the qualifications before they get the job Thank you. I'm not playing this almond Ryan Thank you. Once again, mr. Mayor This whole issue is rather contentious and and you know For the record I did vote against the ambulance issue just because I did not have the support of my constituents However as a council It was passed we passed it as a council that the fire department will be taking over the ambulance service Uh now time is of the essence um in order for This process to be completed by the end of the year That the chief and his department aren't starting out behind the eight ball. I think we have to expedite the process uh suspend the rules this evening and uh let the chief do his job I think it's uh that time as a council if we continue To put up stumbling blocks Um, obviously there's a certain level of trust in the chief and his department to do the right thing Or this council would not have given it the the the ambulance responsibility to them in the first place If we continue to put up stumbling blocks They're not going to be able to get the job done We told them they can do the job Now we have to do everything in our power to let them do it. Thank you Alderman brashill third time. Thank you. I have a question for attorney mclean Just a point of clarification on this We're we're basically allowing fire chief listoski the latitude to To put the people in the positions as he sees fit Through this document, but that does not stop a future council Whether it's next week next year or 10 years from now to step being in and imposing Numbers on each category does it? No, that's correct. Alderman brashill to use you establish the table of organization and The items within that table of organization Yes, my point is that and i'm comfortable that chief listoski has Taken this to heart that he understands my concerns and some of the concerns of the taxpayers So I guess my thought is it let's watch this thing evolve and at that time the council can step in and if they see that numbers Getting out of control from a cost standpoint. We can then step in and oppose those numbers Thank you. Alderman brashill. We have one more almond one Thank you, your honor. I I have just one question. I don't know who can answer this for me, but We talk constantly about the shortage of time that's involved here In other words, january 30. I mean december 31 is the cutoff Does that mean that if the fire department isn't up and running by december 31 That orange cross couldn't continue to operate. Is there really really a time constraint here? What would happen if if they weren't up and ready and their contract expires? Is there any rule that says they can't operate without a contract just as we are before Orange cross can continue to operate And anybody else can continue to operate. So is there is there really a tremendous time constraint here? That we must get this done by january, I mean december 31st What would happen if we didn't I guess that's my question I can't say into the future Turn it please My only comment the alderman wyerman would be that While orange cross apparently would still be here We would not have a contract with them. So they would not have Any contractual obligation to meet the standards that are in that contract Which talks about the Three-minute response time and you know those sorts of performance standards so many ambulances within the city Unless you negotiated something with them as an extension of that agreement they'd be free to Uh respond in any manner that they chose Thank you turn McLean alderman and Vanderwill Thank you, honor I believe if we're not ready By the time that we said we would the only thing that would suffer would be the integrity of this Council that the majority voted To go with the ambulance and also the integrity of the fire department because I believe that they'll do the best They can to be ready for when they can be But as alderman ryan said if we continue to put up stumbling blocks, it's not going to benefit anybody. Thank you I would just ask the council to to keep an open mind Is alderman ryan has said the council did approve it Uh In my in my humble opinion, it's time to move on. We can continue to scrutinize it. We can continue to keep a close eye on it Those issues that will come about can be revisited But right now we're at a position where we need to follow through and move on It's just just that time and I would ask the alderman to to please be mindful of that We have a motion to suspend correct Mm-hmm, please call the roll Rindflash ryan vander wheel for hassled wangeman Warren Serta Hannah Heidemann Kittleson Clowness Meyer Montemayor Nine eyes four nose motion fails That will lie over matters laid over 11 631 or 0 number 168 or 708 by city plan commission Recommend and vacate in the east west alley located within block 105 of the original plat of the city of shabuagon Located between north seventh and north eighth and between ontario and niagara avenue Alderman montemayor Your honor, I move the ro be accepted and filed and the resolution be put upon its passage Motion in second under discussion There is none. Please call the roll ryan Vander wheel for hassled wangeman Warren Serta Hannah Heidemann Kittleson Clowness Meyer Montemayor And rindflash 13 eyes Motion carries 744 resolution number 540708 by alderman Hannah Warren And guishe authorizing a transfer of appropriations in the 2007 budget president hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor. I would ask that we take 744 45 and 48 together. Please do I would I would move that the resolutions be put upon its passage Motion in second to put 44 45 and 48 upon their passage under discussion There being none, please go. I'm sorry. Hold on Alderman, very pleased Thank you, mr. Mayor. I'd ask on 744 just an explanation for finance committee regarding Why the transfer is coming out of the contingency fund and going into the salaries for the various departments at this time here Mr. Gephardt Just ask me. I'll call. I'll call the department heads While he's getting up here. Alderman Hannah. Did you want to take 44 45 47 and 48 or are you leaving 47 out? Okay Rich we have a question for you. Who had a question for rich Alderman Reinfleiss, would you please rephrase the question? I'm just looking at 744 Transferring from general fund contingency to various departments salaries It seems to be smaller amounts. Is this something that's a tie-over? Are we over budget or what do these amounts come from? this was part of the Budget when it's passed in November that there was a salary trust contingency That was established by the council and within Was known at that point that there'd be you know future labor contract settlements And we didn't know what amount would be in each one of the departments So a central account is established With appropriations and then it's allocated after the contracts are approved So we're at that point now to make that transfer Okay, basically just a follow-up. This this is actually then to pay for raises that were negotiated in previous contracts Yes, for the old seven Budget, thank you. Thank you. Alderman Reinfleiss, vice president Boren. Thank you, your honor. I would like a separate vote on 745 please Okay, we will take 744 and 48. Is that okay with uh, thank you very much So there's a 744 and 48 There's a motion to put resolutions upon their passage any more discussion on 44 and 48 There is none. Please call the roll Vander wheel for hassled wongamon Boren Serta Hannah Heidemann kittleson clayunas Meyer montemayor Rindflash and ryan 13 eyes motion carries 745 resolution resolution number 550708 by alderman hannah and boren bauk and gisha rescinding resolution number 14708 and authorizing a transfer of appropriations in the 2007 budget president hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor. I would make a motion to put the resolution upon its passage Motion second under discussion There is none. Please call roll for hassled Excuse me. No, thank you wongamon Boren Serta Hannah Heidemann kittleson clayunas Meyer montemayor Rindflash ryan Vander wheel Nine eyes four nos motion carries 747 resolution number 560708 That didn't read this is a transfer resolution. It needs two thirds. Okay. Sorry about that. It's a transfer so the motion fails 745 fails 747 resolution number 560708 by alderman hannah boren Clayunas bauk and gisha rescinding resolution number 23040607 and authorizing a transfer of appropriations in the 2007 budget for the paving projects president hannah Thank you, mr. Mayor. I would like to put the resolution upon its passage Second motion and second under discussion There is none. Please call roll wongamon Boren Serta Hannah Heidemann kittleson clayunas Meyer montemayor Rindflash ryan Vander wheel and for hassled 13 eyes Motion carries 757 general ordinance number 190708 by alderman Vander wheel To add stop signs for the east and west traffic on walrath boulevard At the intersection of walrath and north fourth street alderman Vander wheel Thank you on our move to put the general ordinance upon its passage Motion and second to put 757 upon its passage under discussion There is none. Please call roll boren Serta Hannah Heidemann Kittleson Clayunas Meyer Montemayor Rindflash Ryan Vander wheel for hassled and wongamon 13 eyes Motion carries We will do other matters first and then we will move into closed session Attorney McLean Thank you, Your Honor. 8-53 is an arrow by the city clerk submitting various license applications for the period ending June 30, 2008 and June 30, 2009 That goes to law and licensing And 854 is a committee report by the motor vehicle review committee Um Reporting back to the council on the potential use of some portion of the motor vehicle fund and Making various recommendations that goes to finance and committee of the whole I want to eat a motion of president hannah. Please read it off your agenda Thank you, mr. Mayor Motion to convene in closed session under the exemption provided under section 19 0.851 g wisconsin statutes For the purpose of conferring with the city attorney who has rendered oral advice concerning the strategy to be adopted by the council With respect to litigation in pool versus the city of shabuaga second motion and second any discussion There is none please call roll Serta hannah Heidemann Kittleson Clayunas Meyer Montemayor Renfleisch Ryan Vanderwill for hassled Blonderman And boron 13 eyes motion carries We will go into closed session after closed sessions will come back into open session, but they will end the meeting I'd ask all the public to please step out only the alderman may be present an attorney mclean and city clerk