 It feels like a Monday, but it's a Tuesday after July 4th observed. Very important holiday, especially now. There are special guests who have been on the show before. They're from Cisco, and their husband and wife, it's Isabella Yanni. She's the chief of staff of America's partner operations at Cisco Systems. Say hi. Hello. Hi. Hi, Jay. There it is. Okay. He's a cybersecurity specialist also at Cisco Systems. Hi, Terry. Morning, Jay. They are not unfamiliar with Think Tech. They've been on the show before. But that was before COVID, and now we're talking about the adjustment for COVID. We're talking about the future of hybrid tech work from their point of view, both at Cisco Systems. We knew our lives would change, both at home and in the workplace and every other way. We just didn't know exactly how. And that is now emerging. The effects of COVID in our society and on our workplace, of course, just being realized. So Isabella, can you talk about how it's being realized at Cisco Systems? Sure. I mean, I think one thing that Terry and I talk about at home sometimes when we have finished a day of 10 hours of back-to-back meetings on video is we're really fortunate to work for a company that's built for this, and that is enabling businesses all around the world to really enable a remote and hybrid workforce. But for us, Cisco went from having offices globally all over the world in every major city to being fully remote in 24 hours. So I think it was, what, March 13th or somewhere about that date where we had been watching the COVID numbers around the world and even in our own state of Arizona where we live now and those started to creep up and suddenly everything was shut down and we were moving to remote work, which for us wasn't a big adjustment. We were already working remote a lot of the time and working from wherever we wanted to work from. But I know that that was a really big adjustment for most industries, most businesses, most individuals. So coming out of this now that more and more people are getting vaccinated and life is starting to feel a little bit more normal again and people are starting to go back to the office. There's kind of this reality that some people are going to continue to be remote forever, and we have to recognize that and know that work is going to change like undeniably from here on out. Yeah, well, so you guys had plenty of experience with so what shall I say? Video connection, video conferencing tools. Terry, you know, have you always used WebEx or is this something that you can't talk about? That's a great question, Jay. Yeah, so yeah, we've predominantly used WebEx in our line of work. It provides a lot of the capabilities that we've needed for not only folks who are in a conference together, but also folks who are in an office together so you can have that connection between folks who are sitting in a conference room together and still feel included in that conversation if you're the remote person or the remote people. One of the things that's really important for businesses is the security that's built around WebEx. That said, in kind of in the March 13th, we're all going remote environment. You know, you had to use whatever tools were available at the time. So some of the customers that I worked with were set up with tools from Cisco and we were able to make that transition pretty quickly. And some of them had to just patch together what they could and make things work. We were all kind of in that same boat. So you talk about security and WebEx really does have a leg up on Zoom with regard to security. But what do you worry about in terms of the security on any web conferencing tool? Yeah, there's I think maybe I'll point out two major things. What one is, is that we do a lot of recording on these. I think that's predominantly the thing that we need to be concerned about. So you need to think about where that data, where those conversations where even the whiteboard drawings or shared information is going or stored when you know, when it's when it's put online. That's that's the major concern. And then we have these, you know, kind of nuisance type concerns where people were doing things like Zoom bombing. So schools, for example, would get a bunch of students online and somehow the meeting number wouldn't be secured and somebody would come in and, you know, just create a nuisance, which is uncomfortable and awkward for everyone. But there are probably two elements. One is just the, you know, the minor players who are nuisances and then the major players who are looking to steal corporate data, corporate secrets, meeting minutes, those types of things. But how do you do that? I mean, don't tell me the inside story, but in just a concept, how do you secure a meeting so that no one else can get in? Yeah, there's a there's a couple of things without getting into too many details. Let's just talk about securing that data. So you have to make sure that all the connections are encrypted first off, but you also have to make sure that that data is stored in reliable and secure cloud places. For example, you you're not farming it out offshore to storage farms or online centers that are not either in the country or you have no control of security standards. So you'll want to have some type of understanding of what those protocols are. Secondarily, you've got to have ways to lock people out of meetings. So, you know, I have to be able to allow people into a meeting if they're an invited guest. And if they're not, I've got to have controls on allowing them to, you know, not come in the meeting or be able to kick them. If you know, hey, you're an unwanted guest and you're not welcome. Well, we've got to do that. You've got to do that these days. So, you know, Isabella, you referred to the G word global. OK, we like the G word. We think the world is becoming global and we want people in Hawaii to recognize that, you know, have global awareness. And certainly Cisco is a is a global company for sure. When I think of you, by the way, and this may be wrong and you can correct me. I think of a lot of wires and switches sort of underground going everywhere. And, you know, it used to be limited to the US, but it certainly isn't limited. Now, can you give us an idea of, you know, of the depth and breadth of Cisco these days? Well, I mean, we definitely got that global presence and to your point around, you know, we. Hawaii is the most remote island chain, I think, right on the globe. And yet we're so interconnected with each other. And a lot of our friends and family here in Hawaii work in industries that operate all around the world constantly and are not necessarily connected via wires anymore. So really, like the future of work is working wherever you want to work, being productive wherever you want to work. And what I think is really amazing is that Cisco as a company, you know, I think we're at seventy seven thousand employees, something like that I probably should have checked this morning. But, you know, we really have that global presence that interconnect every continent and every country, every city and allows, you know, everyone to access any data or any device from anywhere they want to securely. But that is that brings a lot of responsibility with it. So to that point about like, how do you make meeting secure? Just how do you make your employees secure? How do you make how do you make the data that's on, you know, this device and all the other devices that I carry around with me secure? And I think that's one of the things that as a global company, we have to constantly be thinking about not only for our customers, but just for our own employees that are traveling all around the world or are located all around the world and need to maintain that safety and security. You talked about partners. You are you are the partner person, the chief of staff of the partner operations. And I assume from this discussion, that means partners anywhere and everywhere, including in places that you wouldn't take your summer vacation and many probably these days. So but question is, you know, you have to trust the partners. The partners are within the security framework you're talking about. How can you make sure that your partners are not going south on you? Yeah, that's like that's an excellent point. And so and I focus in the Americas, so North America, South America, Central America. And we have so many partners in that area. And our partners are really an extension of Cisco's presence with our customers. So, you know, our partners go through a lot to earn and maintain their Cisco certifications and partnership levels. So, you know, it's a mutual trust. We invest in them and they're investing in Cisco to be an extension of Cisco to our customers in ways that we can't do ourselves. Yeah, well, I get, you know, to me, this sounds like a paradigm that that needs to be revisited all the time. It sounds to me like a power, a leadership paradigm, if you will. You're doing it in technology. But, you know, other American companies that are global, you know, would do similar things in order to achieve the proper relationship with their partners around the world. You know, this is a challenge, but it's also an example of American ingenuity, I think. So let me let me go to you, Terry, for a moment. You know, we're trying to do security here. And, you know, in the case of Think Tech, we were we were doing first, we were doing Skype and then we got into Zoom. And we stayed with Zoom through COVID. We were lucky because we already had the skill to deal with Zoom on a regular basis. And now we're at a place where we think you can agree or disagree. We think the future of business connection, call it, business business engagement is is in these tools. It's in the conferencing tools. And and it's so much easier to do through a conferencing tool. But, you know, there are there are issues. The scale issues and cost issues, it seems to get more expensive every time you look. And and also, you know, there's the issue of of the sweat of the grease paint and the roar of the crowd, you know, I want to look deeply in your eyes and see your heart and soul and be able to read your your pulse. And I can't do that on on WebEx or on Zoom. What do you think about those things? Well, I think to go back to the beginning of your question, I think you're absolutely correct. I think that this is this is in part the future of work. And that's why we call it the hybrid work environment because it does make it so much easier to establish a connection with somebody who is remote, you know, and there are circumstances, including pandemics, of course, but other circumstances in which you can't be present or in a meeting. There are environments I remember living in the Bay Area with an hour and a half commute each way where you could actually be working during that hour and a half, which, you know, make this a highly valuable way to connect with folks. I think, you know, to go a little further into that, the evolution of this. Yeah, we all jumped online with whatever tools we had available to us because we had to. We found out, you know, in an emergency that we could do it. And I think that was the biggest, most important thing. And now, you know, I say that WebEx is very, very secure because Cisco had been doing that for decades prior. And we had been building those, you know, those features into it and making it an enterprise class solution. However, all solutions that have been put out there are catching up. They've had to, if they want to stay in the game, they have to. So, you know, you use the tools that fit the bill. You should be at least cognizant of the security risks and, you know, and understand just to some of the basics. And if you're not trading, you know, top secret information, then Zoom may be a perfect fit for, you know, what we're talking about. At the end of the day, I think, though, that personal connection is important and that's why the hybrid piece is important. So, thinking about how I might work in the future and using myself as an example, I love the ability to connect. I'm literally on an iPad. I'm not even on Wi-Fi. I'm on wireless. I'm using AT&T. I'm able to have a conversation with you and it seems pretty clear. Hopefully, I'm not breaking up. So, you know, I can take this wherever I want. I have all the applications I want. I know that most of those things are secured through work, at least the work applications are. And I have all this flexibility to be, I'm actually on vacation with my family, but I can sit down and have this, you know, intelligent conversation with you. At the end of the day, though, I may want to go into the office two days a week. So, if we have an office, which we no longer have in Phoenix, by the way, I think we're moving to a co-work environment where we rent office space on the visit. You know, at least that way up. On the visit. Wow, that is really pure co-working. Yeah, yeah, they actually have a lot. I think it's a new line of business where there's a lot of places popping up, a lot of companies popping up to provide that workspace that you can rent literally by the day or by the hour if you need a conference room or an office. And I think that that mix is going to be very, very important. We're going to have to learn how to mix what is the right mix for us. What about the cost factor, Terry? We have a question that came in from a viewer. How would smaller companies afford this cybersecurity? Are there grants? Are there special benefits available from whatever source to help small companies, small, medium companies get that protection? I think that would require a little more unpacking. So we'd have to think about, you know, what line of work that particular company is. Are they government? Are they private industry? What I would shift the conversation to maybe to be, take it up a notch. I would say that security is always a cost risk equation. So you have to think about it in those terms. It's always a cost risk equation. So I alluded to, if we're just having a conversation like we are, you may not need top-end security. You may just need to understand what the basic principles are. Hey, we don't, this is going to be published anyway for all viewers to view. So this is not private or personally identifiable information in any way. So we don't necessarily need high-end security for this. We just need the ability to be able to have a conversation and interface with each other. If though, I was going to tell you about the latest code that, you know, and we were going to share what we were writing for the next version of any type of communication software that we have, then I might say, let's find a secure channel or a secure line. And in that regard, I think there is a need and you have to justify that cost somehow. I'll add one other thing though, with the amount of travel. So when you look at overall budgets that we've reduced, you know, it's Cisco in particular, by using online meetings, I think there's definitely a justification to take some of that TNE budget and shift it towards securing your communications. That's a perfect segue to what I wanted to ask Isabella about. So you're international, you're global, you have partners everywhere. In the good old days, a year and a half ago, I suppose you did a lot more traveling and they did a lot more traveling and you would come and talk to each other and there would be hotels and taxis and dinner and entertainment and all that stuff that you do with a visiting fireman. All that you're not doing. I mean, I shouldn't say all of that. I'm really asking how much of that do you see happening in the future or is that ancient history? That's an excellent question. And I wonder that too sometimes because there are parts of me that really miss that. I loved being on the road. I loved going out and interacting, you know, with our partners in person, with our customers in person and with my colleagues. I mean, I also think there is a level of productivity that you achieve in person that is really hard to replicate it over, you know, over that virtual meeting space. And so I think we are going to find, or I know that we're going to find that we probably won't ever get back to the same levels of pre-pandemic travel and, you know, business entertaining in person, at least not anywhere in the near future because there are a lot of places in the world who are still struggling to get their populations vaccinated. There are still a lot of individuals who even if they are vaccinated are not comfortable or unwilling to go into big crowds again or get onto airplanes again. And so, you know, I'm really confident that no matter what happens, there's always going to be this mix of this remote type of interaction that is incorporated into the in-person meetings. And, you know, I think in one of the last, you know, corporate meetings that we attended our leadership chair that we're projecting that 98% of meetings in the future are going to have at least one remote, you know, participant. They're hybrid, hybrid being the operative one. Yeah, hybrid, exactly. So, you know, I think we are going to start to travel again. I think we are going to start to have some more of that in-person interaction again, but I don't think it's going to get to the scale that it was before anytime soon. I also think people's values have shifted. People who are always on the road, you know, I mean, Terry and I included, there were weeks where I would be on the road for the first half of the week and he'd be on the road for the second half of the week and we'd literally pass each other in the air. One of us taking off, one of us getting back home. And I don't think we missed that very much. I think we appreciate having that time at home. And, you know, there are so many articles out there today talking about how remote work or the ability to work remotely is the new signing bonus. There are people leaving their jobs because they do not want to go back to the office or they don't want to return to that same level of travel and just like being away from their families to the same degree that they were before. And I think that's a pretty great statement about kind of the realization people have made about, you know, what their work-life balance should look like moving forward. Yeah, I want to talk about that in sort of the macro way for a minute. First of all, so Cisco went to the, you know, the share space, pop-ups, share space model in Phoenix. But what about other cities? I mean, you have installations Hither and Yon and they do the same thing everywhere or was Phoenix, you know, like the first test of it? No, I mean, I don't know what the exact number is and that's not my area of expertise. But it was in a lot of places. We, you know, we still have our big corporate headquarters in San Jose, as well as a large East Coast campus in RTP North Carolina. You know, we're going to keep big offices in places like Herndon, Virginia for, you know, for the federal government customers to be in New York City. But in a lot of places we've closed down or severely downsized that physical office space because we've recognized that people are just as productive, if not more productive when they're working remotely. And I think now it's up to us to try to get that balance, right? I read a study from or part of a study that Adam Grant reposted that talked about how, you know, 32% of people never want to go back to the office, especially people, especially women with young kids. They're fine working remotely and they're just as productive. And but 21% of workers also never want to be remote again. Empty nesters or people who are single, like they want to get out of the house. So there is no question that we're going to have to find this balance between people who want to work remotely, people who want to be in offices, people who want to get back on the road. I also think we have to check in with, you know, the other people that we're getting on the road to go see. Not everybody wants someone flying across the country to come into their office and come visit them right now. Yeah, good point. So yeah, so I want to go to the corporate level on this, you know, because Cisco and so many other tech companies, they're idea companies, they're innovation. You know, you want to have ideas, you know, I imagine that Tesla back in the 19th century, ideas popping up like lightning bolts everywhere all day long, you know, and you have to have a certain environment for that, a certain environment that encourages, allows, you know, innovation ideas and all that. And so, you know, it's not clear to me that an environment that's different, and I'm not saying it's better or worse, but different than the one in which all the great ideas have taken place in the tech industry is going to be the same. It's going to be, don't you think it's going to be different? And I know none of us, not the most highly paid consultant even, or a sociologist from, you know, an Ivy school can tell you exactly how the sociology of ideas and idea factories are going to change. But I'll ask you anyway, Isabella, how is it going to change? I mean, is Cisco thinking about this? Are you guys thinking about this? How is it going to change? It's not, you know, a large corporation, you have, you know, tens of thousands of people, 77,000 when I last heard about that, wasn't that right, 77,000? And so the question is, you know, whether that's 77,000 as a group, as a corporation with not only missions, but aspirations is going to perform in a different hybrid work environment. Yeah, that's such an excellent call out. I actually just had to lead our strategy and planning cycle for the new fiscal year that's coming up. And this is exactly one of the things that I was based with, which was how do I get the best ideas and strategies out of a bunch of senior leaders who are very used to doing this exact type of motion in person, in a conference room, you know, somewhere where they can get away from everything and just be focused for a couple of days. And it was a big challenge. We put an extraordinary amount of effort into bringing in outside facilitators to help us set up the right type of thinking environment. We put a lot of work into making sure everyone had the right pre-reading and completed the pre-reading so that they could get in the right mindset. And what came out of it was honestly an excellent, excellent plan and excellent ideas and strategy. So I think it's possible. I know it's possible, but we do have to think about it differently. You know, we're not putting people in a room with a bunch of flip charts like we normally would and we can't watch a video together and then have those side conversations over a glass of wine at the end of the day where some of the best ideas are born, but we just have to approach it differently. But I know that there are constantly new ideas being brought about on how to do it differently. And Cisco's really focused on innovating in our Webex platform to bring in features that help with that kind of thing. I mean, it's incredible just to see the level of innovation that has happened over the last, I think, I don't know how many months with our Webex platform, I think there are like 400 new features in the last six months that were introduced. And a lot of those features are there just to create more of that innovative environment where people can bring up ideas and not think about the technology or the security but really just talk about, hey, I read this, it's burdened me to think about this next, these things that we're working on in our business and this is where I think we should go next. I think it's very possible. I think you just have to have the right environment, the right preparation and the tools do matter in that situation. Oh, sure. And speaking of the tools, Terry, I have a vision of the joint research, active interactive research. In other words, right now we have the chat function, I don't know what they call it in Webex, but we can chat on the side. And we also have the share screen function where we can look at things together. And sure, they're pretty powerful now, but I, I don't know, you share it with me as much as you can. This seems to me like these are areas where these tools will go. In order to, just like Isabella says, make it more productive time together almost as if you were there, in fact, better than if you were there. So you can actually do things together. Is this in the cards? Absolutely. Absolutely. So it brings to mind a couple of things that I've seen, you know, where we were showcasing for our next generation of Webex, things like real-time language translation. So if you want to speak Chinese to me and I don't speak Chinese, I'll be able to understand what you're saying because we'll translate it to my preferred language in real-time, the shared white space, a shared whiteboard space where we can collaborate on ideas. But not only that, save all of that, take our meeting assistant, who's going to log the conversation and be able to save the meeting minutes and get those emailed out to people as soon as the meeting closes, things like that. A lot of productivity tools that can be built into the application. From, you know, as a security professional, what I think about is not only are these features and functionality great and the constant effort and drive to simplify the tools to make the human connection more real over these types of tools, I think the security aspect of it is the ability to deliver it anywhere on any platform, any device at any time. I think that's so key to make sure that we know you are who you say you are, you're logged in on a device that is secure and you're able to connect with other folks. I think it's just incredible to think that I can literally take this iPad wherever I want to go and I can have this type of connection, this type of intimacy, not a human connection, right? Not in person, not be able to see, you know, like you said, your pulse, but at the same time have enough of a connection so much better than your old telephone call, right? Telephone call is a pretty nice connection, but be able to see you smile when I say something, be able to hear your reaction, you know, and see the expression on your face. Even if we were speaking a different language, I think that would be pretty incredible. I think that is pretty incredible. As a research scientist at the UH who has developed a sound sensor that will hear people, even heartbeats, behind a brick wall. That's very interesting in a theater of war, if you're going through a building which may have somebody waiting for you in the next room, but it's also interesting in terms of having the, you know, if I'm in a meeting, I really can't check your pulse and that's embarrassing, excuse me, can I just? I'm in a negotiation though. It would be valuable for me to know if your pulse rate is going up or down, you know, sort of like a, you know, a truth finder, a lie detector if you will. But with, you know, with these new machines, these new technologies, A, I probably could develop a sensor and I could put it, you know, in the software, in the hardware and I could check your pulse, but more interestingly, I could do facial recognition. I could put pots on your face and when you're smiling, I could tell if it's a nervous smile, a sincere smile. This is awful when I'm talking, it's terribly draconian, isn't it? I could look at your face and tell so much about what you're thinking and you won't even know. What about that? So what you're talking about actually borders on that ethical, there's an ethical borderline here and it's interesting that you bring that up because I think that's important to discuss. We do have the ability to sense how many people are in a room with some of our in-room, you know, in-room collaboration tools. We do have the ability, I think, and Isabelle can potentially correct me if I'm wrong here since it's not necessarily my area of specialty, but we have the ability to tell if they're wearing masks or not and how social distance they are. So in a pandemic scenario, if the room can only hold four people in four disparate corners of the room and they have to be masked, we have the ability to sense that. Now, that said, there is a very fine line of where we draw privacy, right? And it's absolutely critical that we establish that just because we can do something doesn't mean we should do something. And I think that's the constant ethical debate. It does worry me. I don't think we're at that point, you know, and I don't wanna speak for Cisco, I'll speak personally. I don't think we're at that point yet, but I think we're very close where we're gonna have to start making some decisions about if we can do something, should we do something? The should part is ever so critical these days. Sure, good for you if I'm thinking of that. Good for Cisco for focusing on that. Now, we're almost out of time, Isabella, and I have one question for you and the preface is this. Back in the early 2000s, there was an article in the New York Times about a guy who was in Indiana and his specialty, you know, the technology was relatively primitive then, his specialty was something he called social networking analysis. He would go into your company and he would look at the email. He would, you know, evaluate the keywords in the email and he would give you a schematic of who was really running the company, regardless of the official schematic, regardless of the formal, you know, linear relationships. And one day he noticed that all, he was friendly with a bunch of people who did the same thing around the country. One day he noticed that all his friends, all his peers in this area had disappeared. They were no longer working, you know, for the companies they worked for. What happened to them? So he traced them and he found they'd all been hired by the federal government under the Patriot Act to do black box research and do that kind of, you know, special social network analysis to catch people who may have been doing espionage and the like for the federal government. And this is the beginning of a whole industry, right? So the question for you is with these new tools, you know, the schematic for the organization of the company, the real schematic, you know, but what this fellow in Indiana was working on, maybe different than the schematic that's but the official schematic. Do you think that this will change the way the power is distributed in American corporate, you know, corporations which use, you know, these conferencing tools? Jay, I'm not sure that I'm qualified to answer that question. I'll just give you my personal opinion on it. I think that one of the things that I've noticed since I've moved into the role that I'm in now, which is managing a large group of people, a large organization, each person has different responsibilities and different official job functions. Because of the way that we're working today, and I think also because of just kind of my leadership style, I really encourage everyone to lean into their strengths and sometimes their strength, you know, that overlap of their strengths and their official job function, you know, is really great and sometimes it's not that big, but it doesn't mean that they're not an incredibly valuable team member with great ideas and great capabilities. And I know that we will be more successful when we allow people to really work those strengths. And so I don't think I'm directly answering your question, but I think from my personal experience, what I found is, you know, a job title is a job title, but what you show up and do every day and the value that you bring might be completely not reflected in that job title. And I think that's okay. To me, that's okay. I think if you look at some of the really big companies out there today, some of the really big corporations, their organizations are becoming flatter and flatter because they just don't see that need to have such widely ranging, you know, different grade levels of titles because at the end of the day, as long as we are continuing to innovate, you know, drive growth by value for our customers and help our customers be successful, that's the most important thing. So that's my very... Let me give one more wrinkle to that. Oh, Terry, you had something? Yeah, I did want to comment because I think it's really important, you know, as we look at the ability to connect, the tools that we put in place, they're all just tools to help humans connect. And I think what we have to never lose sight of is exactly what Isabella talked about, the culture and the ethics behind how we connect, how we use the tools and how we move forward. Like these tools are all changing. When you talk about flatter organizations, when you think about, for example, a president of the United States personally responding to the tweet of an individual from another country, which has happened over the last four years, I would say that flattens the world pretty much, right? When you think about how our culture is shifting. So keeping a positive environment, a good culture, a strong culture and tempering that with good ethics, I think is key to everything we leverage these new technology platforms for. And we cannot lose sight of that. Changes in the office, changes at home, changes in the corporation, changes in the way we work together. And of course, changes in the way we evaluate each other. I find this is an interesting prospect going forward. With due regard to privacy, you know, there are so many possible ways you can evaluate your peers or the other people in the company. You know, that it offers a new way to evaluate for promotion, a new way to evaluate for reorganization. It's a view, a window, a window into the way the whole structure is working. It offers all kinds. And you guys are going to be there, I envy you that. Okay, closing remarks, Isabella, closing remark. What would you like people to carry away from on this discussion? I think for me, as I thought about preparing for this discussion, I was thinking about what are the realizations that I've had over the last year and a half or 15 months working in a tech company and working through what we've all been going through. And that is, I think we're always evolving as humans. And I think it's okay for us to change or recognize that our priorities might be changing and have changed. And to realize that we all have something of value to bring. And so if that value isn't being recognized where we are, there are other places to go do that. And I think a lot of people are doing it, right? I mean, there's this whole mass, the mass resignation that's happening where people are going out and looking for opportunities that are better suited to what they wanna go do. And I'm so grateful to be at a place where that hard work is recognized and where we have the tools to be able to work from wherever we need to work from where it makes sense for us. And if that's not the situation that people are in that there are a lot of other opportunities out there. So. Yeah, it just strikes me from this discussion that just like we can have a pop-up office is we can have pop-up people. And all of this may create a new opportunity for the gig economy. Of course, you have to make sure about security whatnot but fact is the gig economy could be enhanced by what we're discussing. Terry, what are your last thoughts you wanna leave with people? I think I may have already mentioned them. I think that everything you guys have said is incredibly valid. I think this does level the playing field quite a bit, opens up a potential gig economy. But I would reiterate that I think culture matters, ethics matter and that what's become more clear to me through connecting virtually and whatnot is being able to identify some of those things and have those things resonate. So it's really, really important that we don't lose sight of what truly matters as we're able to connect in different ways. I hate to leave you guys. I hate to close it. I really truly hate it, but we're gonna have to close now. Isabella Yanni, Terry Yanni, thank you so much for joining. It's been great to talk to you. Thanks, Jay. Great to be here with you. Thanks, Jay.