 Thomas Jefferson said, a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy. The following program is part of the series, influencers and media makers. A number of years ago, CCTV sat down with some of Vermont's most influential voices in media, news and information access to understand their perspectives about the role of media in democracy and how their decisions shape the way we as Vermonters receive information. Much has changed since our first interviews. The people, the technology and social media, the political landscape and so much more. Fast forward 20 or so years and in collaboration with Leadership Champlain, we are revisiting the topic with a focus on what has changed, gaps and challenges across geographic, language and socioeconomic boundaries. The conversations you will hear with today's gatekeepers provide important, varied and insightful context to the media in Vermont today. Enjoy. Thanks so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time to start with that. So we have a couple themes. Did we go over the themes? So we're gonna look at, we're gonna talk a little bit about democracy in the media. We're gonna talk a little bit about the reach and we're gonna talk a little bit about demographics. And so we're gonna start with democracy and so we're exploring the evolving role of media and the necessity of an unfettered press in that democratic process. So just before we dive in, how do you respond to that in general as a topic? It won't surprise you that I am very pro-democracy, very pro-voter participation, active dialogue in the community, engage citizenry. I think everybody in the media is gonna tell you the same thing. We are defenders of democracy and of voter participation and about open dialogue, open meetings, robust dissemination of information. So from your perspective, how do people make voting decisions and where do they access that information about political decisions? I know you've got, we just were discussing kind of how things have evolved and changed. And if you could talk a little bit about maybe when you started, how that process looked, how they accessed information in a democratic frame and a voting frame and where it is now? Well, I've been doing this a long time, about four decades and it's evolved even in our state. I think Vermont has always been more engaged than most states because of our smallness. I think our town meeting tradition, I think we have long been engaged in civic discourse, politics. And I think we all probably start out to sort of forming beliefs that mirror those of our friends, our parents, our families growing up. But as we become adults, hopefully you get information that helps you form your views about public policy from a lot of sources. I worry about that now. I mean, there is polling that indicates that depending upon your political view or your affiliated tribe, you gravitate toward new sources that you perceive that you agree with. And I think that's risky in a democracy. Here in Vermont, I think that's, I'm sure we're not exceptional in that way, but I'd like to think that we are on a state and local level more engaged. And there are some discernible trends in media over the last, well, over my years that are driven by technology and market forces. But I think we still have a pretty robust conversation in our state about issues of public policy, which includes politicians and campaigns, but also about the direction that we want our state to go in. And as a media personality or a media professional, how do you counter that draw to go from one extreme to the other when you guys are deciding how to cover things politically specifically? Do you actively seek out each side or do you, is there a conscious decision to kind of stay down the main road or? Well, we act, yes, we actively seek both sides. Sometimes there are three sides. We try to be fair, particularly around campaign time. But there are also, there are fringe elements even in our state that are not mainstream. And I guess we make decisions about whether they're credible or not and truthful. I mean, there's a difference between expressing an opinion that may be unpopular and that's fine. But disseminating misinformation is not helpful and that's certainly not our role. And how has social media impacted that? And specifically in political trends, do you guys have your finger on the pulse of that and does that impact what and how you report? We watch, we're mindful of social media. I do not, I'm not obsessed by it. I don't track it every day. That's not my role. We have a digital team here that does and I tend to ask them for guidance about what's hot. I have younger colleagues who are much better at this stuff than I am. But there's no question that social media has played a huge role in driving the national conversation. And I'm not sure that's been a great thing. I really don't because social media is a free-for-all and you can hide, you know, often anonymously and say some pretty crazy stuff. It's not to say that everything on social media is not true, but there's a lot that isn't. Right. And I think when you can hide behind a computer screen and say whatever you want, it's often not helpful to, you know, I think there is a direct correlation between social media and the intense polarization that we have in our country right now. Going back a little bit to access of information, that was one of the things that CCTV wanted us to focus on and kind of get an idea and a feel for. And from your perspective, do you have, do you have an idea of who has and who doesn't have access to information in Vermont, just kind of in general? Is that something you guys research or look into or? Well, access to information, that's kind of a broad. What we do is free and is widely available. I mean, I'm a broadcaster, which by definition means, you know, it has a wide reach. There's no subscription. So if you have a television, you can get us. There are, there is some information that is reserved behind a paywall. And I understand that, you know. I like to get paid, they like to get paid. Everybody sort of appreciates a paycheck at the end of the week. But, you know, I sense that information is readily available now than it has ever been. More so thanks to the invention of and the popularity of the internet. And in Vermont, we have, you know, all that I know of newspapers and television stations and certainly online news outlets are have robust internet presence and are for the most part free of charge. So it's up to you whether you wanna become informed or not. Is there anything else that you wanna comment on about democracy and the media? And the media's role in that before we transition to another topic? The media in Vermont is sometimes criticized for not looking and sounding as diverse as some would like us to be. I think the media in Vermont, certainly, we are making a very intentional effort to diversify, both in terms of what we put on television and the people who work here to reach out to voices as our state becomes slowly but discernibly more diverse as we welcome refugees and encourage immigration and stuff. This is not the Vermont of the 1950s anymore. And we're making a real effort to have that reflected on what we put on television and on the staff that produces our programming. This actually segues exactly into the next topic. Joe, I mean to keep going and then you can do your piece after instead of separating it. So we were discussing that kind of as a group, that multicultural aspect and when we think about who's being reached through traditional media and who is not, it raises the question of our multicultural populations where refugees and immigrants in Vermont with the expanding conversation around systemic racism, inclusion and equality. So like you just addressed, one of our questions, how are traditional media organizations working to reach and engage these and other communities that have more barriers to being civically engaged? So in addition to the diversity and inclusion that you talked about within your workforce here, is there more like outreach in the community or even like translations to make other, even not necessarily politically, but information in general available to those populations where English might not be a first language? No, we don't offer translation services. I'm not aware of television stations that does, but I'm just not sure, but no, that's not something that we do. We make an effort to incorporate minorities and I once had a journalism instructor refer to as purple people. And what he meant by that was not the same old voices that we tend to hear over and over in media coverage, but people who are impacted by a policy choice, people who might feel on the margin of a conversation or of a community and include them. We have an ongoing series called Project Community, which is something that Hearst Television has asked of all its stations across the country. And the idea there is to focus on people who are trying to bring communities together rather than focus on division and fracture. And that extends to minority communities. We reach out intentionally to the NAACP, for example. This is an ongoing, it's an ongoing thing. And do we do it as well as we could? Probably not, but this is something that I think we're gonna get better and better at. I think you addressed our next question, which is, what is the role of any of media in the work of dismantling systemic barriers to engagement? So those outreach kind of programs that you were just talking about sounds like that, addresses that as much as it can be within this context. And then this, shifting a little bit. Gee, let's see. We have a couple of questions that focus around local influencers. And so I'm just gonna read through them. What does it actually mean to be an influencer within the context of Vermont's civic issues? Is the media intended to be an influencer? If it is not, then how do you avoid bias in how you report on a story? Like, do you see yourselves separate and apart from it? Or as an influencer of it? Apart from it, we don't intend, we don't have an agenda to influence an outcome. I'd be naive to suggest that the media does not influence the outcome. Just by giving voice to differing points of view, you'll have an influence. But it's not our mission to try to engineer an outcome of a debate, of an election, but to cover it fairly. So influencer, I typically associate with people who are social media influencers who are paid to endorse products and be photographed with them. And I know nothing about that stuff. Let's see. NBC, Bridges, Vermont and Northern New York. So how do you navigate bringing together North Country viewers on topics that affect them? And are there cultural similarities or differences that make this easier or more challenging? And we have two counties in New Hampshire, in the upper valley, like the Dartmouth to Claremont, New Hampshire, those two counties. Counties in New Hampshire are huge. Counties in New York are huge. Both are much larger than they are in Vermont. So we have three counties in Northern New York and we have two in Western New Hampshire. And then we have 12 of the 14 in Vermont. Bennington and Wyndham. Wyndham's part of the Boston market and Bennington's part of the Albany market. I grew up in Bennington County, so I remember as a kid, we watched Albany television. We weren't conscious of Burlington at all. I mean, everything was oriented toward Albany, so. But to your question, how do you bridge? I mean, there are some issues that are quite common to, across our region, which is our, the Burlington-Platsburg market, which is defined, not by us, but by the FCC. It would take five or six hours to drive from one end to the other. It's a vast area, largely rural. There are, but there are commonalities to some degree. I don't wanna overstate that, but for example, the plight facing dairy farmers is very much the same. The St. Albans Co-op, the milk co-op in Franklin County has a lot of supplying farmers in Northern New York. They all face the same challenges with low milk prices and cost of production. We share the weather, so, and the weather's very important to television stations and to television viewers. But, you know, we do have different political systems. Vermont is more liberal than both New Hampshire and Northern New York, so our politics is different. We share Lake Champlain. That would also be a commonality. I think there's universal concern about the health of Lake Champlain and impacts of climate change and invasive species. So there are some similarities, some common interests, but we have a, we have a bureau in Platsburg, we have a bureau in Lebanon, New Hampshire, and then we're talking today from our main facility here in South Burlington. So we do have a question here about who is accessing the medium market you work in and who is not, and I feel like that might be a generational thing as well, so maybe you could speak to that. I'm sure there's data and specific statistical information that I don't have at the ready, but I would say in general, I think consumers of, you know, the evening broadcast, for example, have always tended to be older. I mean, I got interested in this business when my grandparents dragged me by the ear in front of the television, and we watched John Chancellor. We were not Cronkite people, we were Chancellor people, you know, watching back in the 70s, and that got me interested. I think when I started, I was in my early 20s, right out of BVM, and you know, I still think even then, television news, radio newscasts, newspaper readers tended to be older books. So there's always been this disconnect, I think, between generations. I think the internet and the new avenues of dissemination, like podcasts and websites, and certainly social media, Facebook, I think that younger people tend to gravitate toward those mediums. I was at UVM in December, and that's not true, I think it was in November. I was at UVM in November, speaking to a group of UVM seniors in a reporting across media course. And the first question I asked them was, how many of you have, raise your hand, watched a newscast in the last month, and nobody raised their hand? Nobody. So, obviously I was crestfallen, but not terribly surprised. I asked, well, what do you wanna do? Well, I wanna do podcasts. Do podcasts was the answer I heard more, most frequently. You know, when I started, we didn't have such a thing. So that was a wake up. But I think generally news consumers tend to be, you know, 40 and up. And our challenge is, of course, to try to broaden that. But I think that's just sort of the way it's been for a long time. And I'm not sure we're gonna change that. I think younger viewers, younger consumers, tend to be interested in different things. I mean, it may be, and you'd have to get the data from the free press in seven days, but I'd be curious to know whether those who read their food columns and their arts and music columns tend to be younger. I would assume that's the case, but don't know. Yeah, I certainly do. Yeah, it's interesting, the podcast scenario, cause it's almost like your own radio show that might've been appealing to you at that age when you were at UVM. But who's listening? I mean, that's the thing. Are you only reaching people who are already interested in your topic? See, that's the opposite of what we do. A broadcast story goes out across our state instantly, not because you asked for it, or because you clicked on a button that said, I want a story about X. It's a continuous, linear newscast. And so it's really quite the opposite of an on-demand type of product like a podcast. Totally, right. Yeah, this gets into the topic of a news desert. We were charged with trying to identify some places and people who might not be accessing the news. We touched on that a little bit. So I want to ask you, is the news desert even a physical location? Or does it differ based on demographic or issue? And what does the term mean to you? Well, a desert to me is a desolate place that in this context would mean an area or a population that's unserved. I think you're focusing on Chittenden County, right? Primarily, yeah, but also across Vermont, yeah. It's hard for me to see Chittenden County as a news desert, to be perfectly honest. I mean, we have a robust media climate here that is not the case elsewhere in Vermont, elsewhere in our country, but boy, we have a tradition of engagement here that drives demand. We have three very active competing television stations. We have public access television and we've had that for 30 years. We have a lot of community newspapers. Commercial radio news coverage has declined, but VPR is one of the countries most listened to public radio stations. And we have an online presence. The daily paper has declined, but the weekly paper has risen to the challenge. We have a lot. And we haven't even talked about social media. So, no, I don't think that, and we have front porch forum. I mean, nothing is more local than that. That'll tell you who's missing their dog or cat on the corner, on your corner. I mean, now it's hard to see this as a news desert. Let's see, yeah, what challenges do you see for media in Vermont in the current environment? How has it changed over your time in the news? And are there any bright spots that you perceive? Well, Vermont is a fairly small market. And so, at the moment, there's a lot of upward mobility in the news business. So, people often work here for a time and then they leave and go to a larger city, larger state, unless they fall in love with Vermont and decide to make this their home, which we hope they do. I think people of every political persuasion would agree. We need more people in our state. But in the media business, there tends to be a churn, a turnover. And that means we're retraining people over and over again. So, that is not new, but I think that it's gotten perhaps a little more pervasive. You can, there are a lot of things you can do in the world and there are bigger markets that will hire you away. So, that means that we have people who don't have long tenures, both covering news and also just being a citizen of our state. And that's not great, but it's the reality. And so, that's one thing. I'm pretty encouraged though, because of civic engagement. I mean, we have higher than average voter participation and robust conversation, for the most part, in our politics and before our city councils and select boards. So, I think we're gonna be fine, but I think we're gonna be fine. Yeah, and just a couple of questions here about sort of those kind of baseline questions we had touched on that we're interested in learning from each media maker like yourself. How do you think people are learning the news, and specifically learning about their neighborhoods, their own local neighborhoods in the news? You talked a little bit about Front Forge Forum. Yeah, I mean, I'll be clear. Television station, a Vermont statewide television station is not going to cover your neighborhood for the most part, unless something bad happens. And then we'll be there. And that, you know what that means. It means, if God forbid there's a terrible fire or a shooting in your community, that attracts attention, because it's rare and that's what news represents. We don't cover the plane that landed safely. That's the cliche. But there is a lot of opportunity to find out about your community through Front Forge Forum, which is a fabulous free product that I think it's in virtually every community in our state now. There are local newspapers that are, I mean, hyper-local newspapers, weeklies and stuff. You can volunteer or work for one of them if you are interested in getting involved. We just hired a young UVM graduate who came to us after spending several months at the local paper in Waterbury, for example. Covering Waterbury. Not covering all the state, just Waterbury. So there are, I think, and I think virtually, most towns in Chittenden County all have a paper like that. So even my hometown of Lewinuski just restarted its paper. So there is a lot of opportunity to find out about your community and get engaged, go and you don't have to go. Now you can just, with a click, watch your select board meeting once. And you'll learn a lot about what's going on in your community. Absolutely. And that leads into what other non-traditional news sources exist and how do you partake in those as a more traditional media maker? What's the first part of the question? What other non-traditional news sources exist and how do you influence those as a media maker? I think we touched a little bit about social media and does NBC5 participate in that in any way? Sure, I mean we have a, NBC5 has a Facebook channel and Instagram and Twitter accounts. I looked and our Facebook page has 185,000 users. I couldn't, I was shocked, but I checked ahead of this interview and that is by far our top social media channel. It's not as big as our website in terms of monthly page views, but it's a key driver of eyeballs to our brand. That would be, I guess, a non-traditional, to me, it would be a non-traditional source. You know, there's a lot that's on social media that's pretty dark and not true. And I think we have to be real careful about what we consume and believe. And you know, I come back to my John Chancellor Walter Cronkite days. I mean, you know, when we could all gather around and watch a common, you know, newscast that you can have your opinions about what you saw and heard, but at least we can agree on the facts. And I think it was Senator Moynihan who once said, you know, you're entitled to your opinion, man, but you're not entitled to your own set of facts. I think that's something that traditional news, broadcast news and mainstream news that is credible and doesn't have an editorial bent, you know, helps to foster a common understanding about what's going on in our state and in our country. It's a good thing. And I think our final baseline question is, what do you think people's primary news resource is? Or is there a primary news resource that you can identify? Well, I mean, the research will show that television news remains the number one source of information in our country. That said, it's not as dominant at all compared to what it was like in the 50s and 60s and 70s. There is a whole new landscape now that's driven by the internet. In Vermont, we have lots of news sources, information sources and, you know, so while television as a broadcaster still has a big role to play, I think there are a lot of choices and I go back to something that you asked at the very beginning, I think you ought to have multiple avenues of information. And I think, you know, have a broad perspective and don't just watch and listen to, you know, something that you think you already agree with. That's not really what news coverage is supposed to be. If you like this and want to see more, watch the rest of the series. Thank you for watching and please vote.